:034:
Smash Hero
No clue. : D I'd have to do testing to see how good Ganon is with nannerz.
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Weekly Match-up discussion 1: Diddy Kong
- Thread starter adumbrodeus
- Start date
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Yeah, please do.
My match-ups on this basically went.
1. Diddy has control and is ****** me.
2. I get in a shot.
3. I steal the Bananas.
4. Diddy eats some nice combos then gets knocked off.
5. Diddy gets spiked/edgehogged, etc.
Again, I don't think I'm good enough to be a test case on this, and neither is my friend, though I know my friend is a better player then I am.
But it seems like enough to provoke some discussion on the topic, and I think Ganondorf's moves in particular benefit from being able to trip the opponent.
Blad01
Smash Lord
I would even say 20-80 for us... It'one of our worst Match-ups :/
(80-20 Diddy).
(80-20 Diddy).
ADHD
Smash Hero
Ganon can do absolutely nothing lol I feel bad for him. He's so easy to combo and it's not hard to trip him at all. I could go absolutely campy and ganon would be totally helpless. Bowser is harder than ganon IMO
Blad01
Smash Lord
So 80:20 for you ?
Ganon get comboed very badly in this match-up, but if he manages to get a Wizkick / Uair / Stomp, he can also hurt DDK :o
hyperstation
Smash Lord
I might have to revisit this matchup in the near future to give my input.
I've played a handful of tournament level diddys recently and done very well. One of the topics we were questioning in this matchup was just HOW good is ganon with bananas. The answer is clear: VERY good. Once you get your momentum with some bananas, it's a pretty brutal site as ganon can rack up damage reallllllly quickly with people tripping everywhere.
I've played a handful of tournament level diddys recently and done very well. One of the topics we were questioning in this matchup was just HOW good is ganon with bananas. The answer is clear: VERY good. Once you get your momentum with some bananas, it's a pretty brutal site as ganon can rack up damage reallllllly quickly with people tripping everywhere.
Blad have you looked at all the summaries people put up? Chrome, as soon as you feel bad for a good Ganon, that's when we destroy you. If you want to convince me that Diddy absolutely destroys Ganon and makes him eat his banana, you're gunna have to come up with a lot more. Especially when we've written long explanations as to how Ganon has a decent chance.
Ganondorf completely trumps Diddy in the air, even with the kong hump. All of Ganondorf's aerials have more range, more priority, and eat through Diddy's aerials like an old banana. The ground game is really where this match up can turn to Diddy if Ganon does not play well. The ground game can be heavily based towards Diddy, but Ganon has counters to this. DA, nannerz, f-tilts, glide tosses, and diddy's ground pressure can be overwhelming, but stomp can shut down a lot of that pressure. The problem is that if you decide you want to feign a stomp, you could eat a banana right to your chest.
You definitely have to maneuver and tread carefully on the ground. Stomp is an excellent weapon to pick up bananas off the ground. DA is nice to pick them up, but you could end up running into another banana or a shield. Wizkick is alright to go above them, but it's really not a good option if Diddy is playing defensively. All your follow ups to Gerudo are guaranteed, which is really nice, and edgeguarding is okay against Diddy. You do have to be a little bit more careful with it because of barrel spiking, hump, etc, but it's doable.
Ganon does pretty well with bananas I think. His glide toss goes pretty far actually, follow that up with a jab/d-tilt/grab/gerudo/f-tilt and that's one dangerous banana slide. Not too mention bananas can aid him with kills and his already great damage racking. Plus a banana on the ground is scary with tech chasing.
Make sure that whenever Diddy takes to the air, you capitalize on it with u-air, b-air, or even f-air sometimes. When he takes to the ground either defensively or offensively, don't get overwhelmed and pay attention to your maneuvering. Know your options when a banana comes at you, when you get hit with a banana, when you hit diddy with a nanna, or when he comes at you with a DA. Patience is key on the ground, because when you land hits...they have some impact, and the momentum has been shifted into your corner for rapeage.
It isn't a **** match up at all. 60:40 Diddy
Blad01
Smash Lord
...
Not really ^^"
But i see your point now.
Ganon wins over Diddy in the airs, can deal with bananas, and can gimp DDK more or less esaily with Tipman.
Ganon also kills DDK way faster than DDK kills him.
However, Ganon has a slow running speed. Even if his DA and Stomp can catch bananas without a problem, it is still too slow on a big flat stage like FD. And it's expected by DDK...
Furthermore, DDK has two bananas. While you catch one, he can easily get a huge combo on you with the other banane.
About the defensive game on the ground... Two things :
- DDK is one of the best pressuring characters.
- Ganondorf doesn't have a good shield, and can't stand sheild pressure well.
So... Ganon will be rapidly pressured, and will be poked most likely / grabbed... And here is the beginning of a combo...
To sum up my opinion :
Pros :
- Ganon wins over Diddy in the airs (Uair, Bair)
- Ganon can deal with bananas
- Good Gerudo combos
- Ganon can kill Diddy Kong at early percents (as always)
- Can gimp Diddy kong more or less easily with Tipman
- Diddy Kong has a hard time killing Ganon
Cons :
- Ganon has a hard time approaching
- Can't stand Diddy Kong shield pressure when playing defensively
- Is too slow to really deal effectively with bananas
- Get comboed badly
- DDK can gimp Ganon (as always
)30-70 in my opinion. A DDK who relies on bananas, his ground game, his combo, and his gimps will overall have the advantage.
Hum... On the other hand, a very (very) patient Ganon, who knows very well the match-up, could wait for an error, and punish it badly too... That could be 35-65 at best.
But not 40-60 imo.
Blad01
Smash Lord
...
Not really ^^"
But i see your point now.
Ganon wins over Diddy in the airs, can deal with bananas, and can gimp DDK more or less esaily with Tipman.
Ganon also kills DDK way faster than DDK kills him.
However, Ganon has a slow running speed. Even if his DA and Stomp can catch bananas without a problem, it is still too slow on a big flat stage like FD. And it's expected by DDK...
Furthermore, DDK has two bananas. While you catch one, he can easily get a huge combo on you with the other banane.
About the defensive game on the ground... Two things :
- DDK is one of the best pressuring characters.
- Ganondorf doesn't have a good shield, and can't stand sheild pressure well.
So... Ganon will be rapidly pressured, and will be poked most likely / grabbed... And here is the beginning of a combo...
To sum up my opinion :
Pros :
- Ganon wins over Diddy in the airs (Uair, Bair)
- Ganon can deal with bananas
- Good Gerudo combos
- Ganon can kill Diddy Kong at early percents (as always)
- Can gimp Diddy kong more or less easily with Tipman
- Diddy Kong has a hard time killing Ganon
Cons :
- Ganon has a hard time approaching
- Can't stand Diddy Kong shield pressure when playing defensively
- Is too slow to really deal effectively with bananas
- Get comboed badly
- DDK can gimp Ganon (as always
)30-70 in my opinion. A DDK who relies on bananas, his ground game, his combo, and his gimps will overall have the advantage.
Hum... On the other hand, a very (very) patient Ganon, who knows very well the match-up, could wait for an error, and punish it badly too... That could be 35-65 at best.
[EDIT : Haven't seen hyperstation's post... If he says so, i'm gonna go with 35-65]
But not 40-60 imo.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Why are you making one thread by one? Put all the match up information together.. a lot easier to find it that way.
ADHD
Smash Hero
Ganon does not win against diddy in the air, at least in the front, diddy's fair is far better. Are you guys smoking weed right now? Laggy characters do not do good with bananas, especially since his ground speed. Are you playing bad diddys? I'll tell you what a bad diddy will do, he'll just start bringing out his bananas and underestimate ganon by far. That diddy will get DESTROYED. All diddy has to do is camp with a naner in hand always, just shoot peanuts and lure ganon to make a mistake. He has no good way to approach diddy, please tell me some way where the outcome cannot be glide tossing a naner against ganon and causing him to trip if he's approaching. Wizards foot? Gl with that ill just shield it and punish you. I'm not dumb enough to not be aware of the side b range, nor do I think other of the better diddys will. Ganon has better range? Okay, so what, I can space myself with dribbling (glide tossing backwards down.) Ganon gets absolutely destroyed against a campy diddy, and a ganon can do nothing more than dair camp which can STILL be punished. Have you ever heard of diddys up b? Ganon is so slow that its too predictable if he has a banana in hand, if you throw it at his rocket barrels within range its somewhat of a large percent they will hit you and do 18ish damage. Camping against ganon is easy, and effective and he can do absolutely nothing about careful camping.
Bf is the only stage where he might stand a chance against diddy kong, and he's still at a large disadvantage. Ganon gets ***** by diddys utilt, he can juggle him a couple of times at low percent before following it up with something. Ganon may be heavy, but a dsmash and fair sends him offstage out of his recovery range. Edgeguarding ganon? Piece of cake! Pluck out nanerz in the air while facing the stage over the ledge, then he gets hit and spiked or eats an fair to the face. Diddy's aerials are faster than ganons and much less laggy. The only way diddy can lose, is if he is impatient or generally bad.
Bf is the only stage where he might stand a chance against diddy kong, and he's still at a large disadvantage. Ganon gets ***** by diddys utilt, he can juggle him a couple of times at low percent before following it up with something. Ganon may be heavy, but a dsmash and fair sends him offstage out of his recovery range. Edgeguarding ganon? Piece of cake! Pluck out nanerz in the air while facing the stage over the ledge, then he gets hit and spiked or eats an fair to the face. Diddy's aerials are faster than ganons and much less laggy. The only way diddy can lose, is if he is impatient or generally bad.
CO18
Smash Hero
I think you should play Koskinator's ganon.
ADHD
Smash Hero
I won't play it over wifi because isn't he in the west coast?
hyperstation
Smash Lord
Chrome, I'd like to play you. Not tonight, I just got done with some matches, but maybe tomorrow. I live in Brooklyn, so we should have minimal lag.
and also because...
It's a performance enhancing drug for my smash metagame. Like Smash-HGH.
and also because...
...yep
It's a performance enhancing drug for my smash metagame. Like Smash-HGH.
Ganon definitely wins against Diddy in the air, even against f-air. U-air beats out f-air or at the very least will trade hits. The range of u-air is a lot more than above him. It covers a pretty good distance in front and behind him, as much as Diddy's f-air. All of Diddy's other aerials are extremely short range and can be beaten out. Not to mention Ganon's b-air can beat f-air as well. If you are assuming that Diddy won't be stupid, why are you assuming Ganon will be? What lag does he have on his aerials other than SH n-air or f-air? If he's being smart he shouldn't have lag on 3 of his amazing aerials.
I do agree with you that a campy Diddy is annoying, and pretty hard sometimes. Although I will say that peanuts are pretty bad. They're an annoyance but they get destroyed by any move in the game. They're barely something to deal with.
Honestly Diddy's glide toss doesn't go that far, and since the tossing of the banana comes near the end of the animation of the slide, Diddy can be pretty vulnerable to a stomp to the face or DA. Again, a campy Diddy can be hell, but Ganon doesn't approach...that's not what he does. He gets in a certain range and capitalizes by using his positioning. When you get in a certain range (past Diddy's fearful peanut spam) Ganon can put a unique brand of pressure on Diddy and capitalize on any retaliation Diddy makes. You say Diddy still doesn't have to attack at this range? Ganon's d-tilt does a lot at this range, and Ganon maneuvers well with SHADing. Diddy throws a banana at this range, shield. If he thinks this means pressure with a follow up DA, he gets stomped in his chimp face. Stomp both covers a Diddy ground approach and catching the banana. F-air to kill stomp, Ganon u-airs/f-tilts/DA. Another nanner, SHAD, or an AC aerial works too. It's work but it leads to a lot of damage for Ganon. Plus, a Diddy who gets overly defensive can eat Gerudo. Just don't forget that a hard hit can shift all the momentum to Ganon, making Diddy work to get whatever set up he had going again.
The rocket barrel glitch which I have seen and have heard of, is a wild card. Don't get me wrong, I don't underestimate it. I know it does around 20%, does good shield damage, and can kill, but you also have no control over it and it could just as easily fly off into the distance. But Ganon's glide toss is longer than Diddy's and can cover a pretty good distance to be followed up with a quick standard attack.
U-tilts can be nasty, especially at stopping stomp, but Ganon shouldn't be approaching with stomp. You get like 2-3 u-tilts before Ganon DI's out and shields your u-smash or whatever you intended to follow up with.
Ganon's recovery sucks bad, we all know that. But Ganondorf can do some nasty things to Diddy...and I'm betting that the Dorf can get Diddy off the edge sooner than vice versa.
It's a disadvantage, not ****.
PS - If you're in the Ganon boards and you ain't blazin', I dont think you belong here
ADHD
Smash Hero
sure swoop, but still it'd still be a different matchup offline 
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Uair> fair. Ganon's fair may be vulnerable, but not his uair.
It's not so much a question of being laggy in general, it's a question of length of animation in glide toss, start-up speed, comboability.
Say what you want about Ganon overall, but he combos really nicely, and if he has a good follow-up to glide toss then a signifigant chunk of Diddy's advantage is gone, because his hits clear VERY well, giving him a decided advantage in actually getting control of the bananas. Basically, one good hit and you're off-stage.
Speaking of which glide-tossing to up-smash, it seems to cancel even more of the animation, it seems to be inescapable, but it's difficult to space. Could anyone confirm?
Peanuts are no issue for ANY character, period. Ganondorf has no need to approach.
That said, with Bananas, you are generally in the best position when you approach because Diddy is a momentium-based character. In this match-up it's his biggest strength and biggest weakness.
Glide-tossing backwards? Yeah, please just give Ganon the banana, he'll appreciate it a lot.
IMO: Given what we currently know, 70-30. However if some reasonable follow-ups pan out, based on the quality of those follow-ups it could shift very signifigantly.
ADHD
Smash Hero
^^^good luck getting peanut camped
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Chrome, it seems like you haven't played any good Ganons. I'll fight you over Wifi, a couple of matches.
and.. I'll be making a proper thread for Ganon match ups, so it's more organized.
and.. I'll be making a proper thread for Ganon match ups, so it's more organized.
ADHD
Smash Hero
sure i'll message you :D but just know diddy is never as good as he is offline
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Yeah, neither is Ganon and the rest of the cast.
ADHD
Smash Hero
diddy suffers right below the ice climbers.
SaltyKracka
Smash Lord
Trust me, laggy character+WiFi=Muuuuch worse.
Blad01
Smash Lord
WTF ?? Why the hell are we talking about WIFi ? We don't care of that, the match-ups are considered offline.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
This doesn't really matter because wifi is useless in general for gauging anything, too many minor factors are thrown off by either lag or latency. It just totally changes the match-ups.
But in general, bait and punish characters like sonic, ganondorf, and Ike fair the worst at the top levels of play. Wifi favors attackers because of latency, and complex combos are still possible, you just have to be several frames ahead, so you can still infinite.
Except on REALLY high latency, characters based around heavy attacks (ex. ganondorf) that are extremely slow will not have enough of an attacker's advantage to make up for that and actually go on the attack effectively. With their bait and punish gone...
Characters relying enormously on just the right spacing are also thrown off, so Marth is hurt.
Technically, ICs should be the best in wifi because latency makes it impossible to space against them, but people just aren't good enough with them.