Weekly Character Discussion: Mario

[Metro Knight]

, but Mario has little to no shield pressure at all.

The Up-B is actually good if their shields are low, it eats away a lot of a shield. But you have to have a low shield otherwise you will just get punished.

here's a combo video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LljM5AiGRJU

This is a good combo video, the opponents might not be all that great, but they generally aren't in combo videos.

is the Jab/grab dthrow/ up air x2 jab grab combo as good as Kirby's?

 

[hippiedude92]

lol @ people saying fireball is Mario's best move.

Fireballs has great use, but it's no where near the best move. Overswarm is correct. Fireballs can easily be powershield (even if two are out) and makes approaching not guaranteed.

Mario has no "shine" in any particular move. However all his moves together is what makes Mario, as a whole, a good character.

There is no exploits Mario can use. He has to use all his abilities if he wants to win a match. And that makes Mario an unpredictable character due to the countless amounts of playstyles people can bring.

I'm not surprised that no one talked about using FLUDD and Cape onstage. FLUDD is a good defensive/campy tool due to FIHL (look it up if you don't know it), and it also kills approaches and allows Mario to counterattack, usually with a D-Smash or F-smash. Cape can be used on stage to reverse laggy attacks. He can also use cape jump to kill counter-attacking.

I can't believe it's been said that his "gimping potential is meh". That's practically the highlight of Mario's metagame thus far. He has more than just Cape and FLUDD, he also has his aerials, fireballs, and a spike. The only thing that stops Mario from outright destroying every single character's recovery is the fact that he cannot stay off-stage for long.

That's all I got so far. Gotta say, I expected worse from this, but you guys proved you know some stuff about Mario.

And thank God you guys believe he should be mid tier.

I personally believe this is the post I was going to post but I like your post better
But yeah that really sums it up for what I thought on the SBR's thoughts on Mario. Mario's a versatile character so alot of people bring alot of different playstyles on him. Though, I kinda think he is abit predictable at times.

 

[Overswarm]

The Up-B is actually good if their shields are low, it eats away a lot of a shield. But you have to have a low shield otherwise you will just get punished.

That isn't shield pressure.

This is a good combo video, the opponents might not be all that great, but they generally aren't in combo videos.

is the Jab/grab dthrow/ up air x2 jab grab combo as good as Kirby's?

Yes, it is as good in that it doesn't actually work but does if the opponent responds poorly.

 

[HeroMystic]

I personally believe this is the post I was going to post but I like your post better
But yeah that really sums it up for what I thought on the SBR's thoughts on Mario. Mario's a versatile character so alot of people bring alot of different playstyles on him. Though, I kinda think he is abit predictable at times.

I tend to do that a lot.

Yeah, he can be predictable at times. I know I can be predictable with going for the U-tilt lock. Who can pass that up? XD

That isn't shield pressure.

D-air is decent shield pressure due to the multiple hits, but yeah.

 

[Matador]

I'm actually quite content with the overview

Except for Cyphus' bit about the Dair. That could've been left out. Mario's Dair has quite a few uses. Approach, shield pressure since it autocancels, comboing...*sigh*

Mario has pretty decent shield pressure since all of his aerials autocancel (except Fair), and Dair has multiple hits. But w/e, It's not a big deal. They got Mario pretty accurate.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm actually quite content with the overview

Even with the whole fireball is the best move? <_<

Also, I missed that part, but lol @ D3 not being able to be caped.

 

[Matador]

Even with the whole fireball is the best move? <_<

Also, I missed that part, but lol @ D3 not being able to be caped.

Well, it's up there. Cape is definitely the best thing in his arsenal though.

But yeah, they did a good job for none of them even using Mario except for like...just to play around with him. They did sorta look down on Mario's gimping abilities, but seeing as even though he CAN gimp MK and Snake and whoever else, doesn't mean he can do it very frequently or consistently.

Lulz @ Mario being "VERY hard" to pick up. Makes using Mario more worthwhile.

 

[Matt07]

I'm very impressed with the discussion they gave. Fireball is Mario's best looking move, it's shiny, bounces, and it's red. But yea Fireball is a good move for Mario but certainly not the best .

 

[PKNintendo]

Mario's fludd is incredibly fun to use & versatile. I wish it did damage... Still good though.

 

[Geou]

A nice overview. Though I have to agree that they definitely underestimated D-Air. It is absolutely beautiful for knocking those pesky chronic spot-dodgers into the air, ready to be decimated by barrages of U-Airs, B-Airs, and D-Airs.

 

[Tenki]

stutter/notstutter/wtfstep

Uh... no. Marth can't simply be facing left, tap Cright, and move forward with an Fsmash. Just try this with Mario.

Can't we just call the stutter step thing an easy pivot fsmash - i've been calling it a pivot fsmash since i found out about it lol

isn't it just dash one direction fsmash the other direction quickly or am i thinking of something else?

What most people call stutter step is the pivot F-smash that you talk about. Falcon, Ganondorf, Mario, and Sonic are the only ones who gain an extra 'startup range boost' from doing a pivot F-smash. Which is what Kyari was freaking out about.

That's not how you stutter step. You tap a direction as if you are going to dash and then quickly do a f-smash. Your character moves slightly one direction or another; this gives good spacing options to many characters and increases the range of the f-smash for characters lke sonic and mario by a decent degree.

It gives less of an jerk than the 'pivot F-smash' stutter step, but yeah, cancelling the initial dash with F-smash like that gives pretty much the same 'look'/'effect' overall.

What's cool is 'extending' the stutter step by 'dash dancing' and hitting forward, pivoting forward to move backwards, then doing the pivot F-smash via C-stick. The dash dance pivot adds more range to it.

And better is a 'retreating' stutter step (that's basically what it looks like) done by starting a dashdance backwards, and hitting A as you hit forward for the first time, so you gain an extra backwards jerk while you're charging the F-smash.

Spoiler

10freakingdashattacksthatdon'tfreakingcatchbananas

 

[Metro Knight]

Yes, it is as good in that it doesn't actually work but does if the opponent responds poorly.

Ah, so it really is just a jab cancel that can potentially combo, unless the person is aware that they can hold up and air dodge? Like, can every character just hold up and jump out airdodge or...

 

[_clinton]

The combo video makes me wish I didn't suck with Mario ^_^

 

[Judge Judy]

Ah, so it really is just a jab cancel that can potentially combo, unless the person is aware that they can hold up and air dodge? Like, can every character just hold up and jump out airdodge or...

You can't atk out of it but you can DI out of it, and in some cases airdodge or jump out of it. Most players go for the grab but some just try Ftilts and Up Bs too; it's escapable but the escape options your opponent has are predictable and can be punished if you read them well.

 

[~Peachy~]

Wow...Although Mario and Peach have different playstyles Mario is very similar to Peach in terms of where they stand in the "current metagame"

Plenty of potential.

They don't stand out as much compared to some other cast members.


Only select few will pick up, play and enjoy how they play.

Tournament goers will be surprised by they're presence and most likely lose due to match up inexperience.

That could probably apply for half of the cast but I thought it is more evident and important here. ^__^

 

[SkylerOcon]

His gimping potential is meh.

In all honesty, how was SP the only one to challenge this claim? Mario's gimping potential defeats everybody in the game. Meta-Knight can eat his heart out.

 

[Kitamerby]

In all honesty, how was SP the only one to challenge this claim? Mario's gimping potential defeats everybody in the game. Meta-Knight can eat his heart out.

....


.......

...........



PFFFFFFFF....



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.


Oh wait, you're serious?

 

[mimic_king]

Mario's FLUDD is actually very useful. If an MK uses his drill rush move, using FLUDD will keep him in the same place the whole time. The FLUDD has to be fully charged though.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Very serious. MK's edgeguarding game by far surpasses everybody, but that's entirely different. Mario's cape and FLUDD can get in the way of an opponent going towards the ledge, MK prevents opponents from going towards the ledge.

MK's edgeguarding surpasses Mario's.
Mario's gimping surpasses MK's.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Except for Cyphus' bit about the Dair. That could've been left out. Mario's Dair has quite a few uses. Approach, shield pressure since it autocancels, comboing...*sigh*

Mario's D-air is a very good attack in Brawl. What was Cyphus thinking?

It punishes dodges nicely. It has like zero ending lag too, so a buffered SH D-air will actually end before you hit the ground, and you can fit in a N-air or U-air before you hit the ground. Pretty viable for shield pressure if you ask me.

Oh, and at low percents, it is a legit COMBO starter. D-air -> doublejumped aerial is a true combo on the Brawl combo counter.

Plus, it has RIDICULOUS priority. The hitbox is deceptive and a lot larger than Mario's actual body on the last hit.

It's also one of those rare aerials that has grounded hitboxes btw...

 

[Kitamerby]

Very serious. MK's edgeguarding game by far surpasses everybody, but that's entirely different. Mario's cape and FLUDD can get in the way of an opponent going towards the ledge, MK prevents opponents from going towards the ledge.

MK's edgeguarding surpasses Mario's.
Mario's gimping surpasses MK's.

MK's dair sends people at a low angle with absolutely no chance of recovery. Mario's cape has to be timed quite precisely to gimp many recoveries, and is absolutely useless against some people who are just plain good at recovering. Also, Mario has no moves that have a low enough knockback angle that most floaty characters can't just DI properly and float back from, unlike MK.

 

[mimic_king]

Mario's forward smash is overpowered. I don't know if you guys agree with me, but I think so.

 

[Judge Judy]

MK's dair sends people at a low angle with absolutely no chance of recovery. Mario's cape has to be timed quite precisely to gimp many recoveries, and is absolutely useless against some people who are just plain good at recovering. Also, Mario has no moves that have a low enough knockback angle that most floaty characters can't just DI properly and float back from, unlike MK.

Uair does depending on how you hit it; reverse Uairs and Uairs when Mario is completely upside-down (his "sweetspot"). Also, he does have a meteor.

 

[Kitamerby]

loldubblepost

 

[Kitamerby]

Uair does depending on how you hit it; reverse Uairs and Uairs when Mario is completely upside-down (his "sweetspot"). Also, he does have a meteor.

WATCH OUT. MARIO AND HIS 22-FRAME SPIKE IS GONNA GO OWN EVERYONE! =O

Spoiler

10disjointedaerials

 

[SkylerOcon]

MK's dair sends people at a low angle with absolutely no chance of recovery. Mario's cape has to be timed quite precisely to gimp many recoveries, and is absolutely useless against some people who are just plain good at recovering.

Wrong, actually. Sure, it doesn't work against Snake (because he gets the cypher back after using the cape), but even if your opponent is 'good at recovering', Mario just has to drop down to where the opponent is going to recover and use his side-b. The timing takes about thirty minutes of practice to get down, which isn't that much.

A Mario main who has trouble timing the cape is a failure anyway.

Like I said, MK definately has the best edgeguarding. Mario, however, has the better gimping.

 

[Judge Judy]

WATCH OUT. MARIO AND HIS 22-FRAME SPIKE IS GONNA GO OWN EVERYONE! =O

Spoiler

10disjointedaerials

Yah, his Fair is extremely slow but it is an option since he can set it up. Also, his Uair can be combined with his cape glide to quickly land it even against characters with good disjointed atks.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's D-smash sends people at a fairly low angle. It comes out the exact same speed as MK's D-smash too. Just saying.

 

[HeroMystic]

I find it hilarious that a non-Mario main is arguing about what Mario can or cannot do.

 

[Matador]

It's also one of those rare aerials that has grounded hitboxes btw...

Exactly why it's so easy to pick up Bananas or ZSS' armor pieces when they're grounded. I just SH over them and they're in my hand when I land XD

Edit @ Hero: Lmao, I find it hilarious that I find it hilarious as well

This is how you use Fair. Watch the last stock. The speed doesn't matter if you don't suck, otherwise DK wouldn't be so high on the tier list. Envy has an epic vid of him doing fireball -> Fair as well.

The difference between edgeguarding and gimping has eluded me for quite some time; the definitions sort of bleed together for me. Here's my understanding:

Edgeguarding: Basically keeping your opponent off the stage with one of your many aerials or projectiles. Or, perhaps, forcing your opponent to grab the ledge when he planned to go over and land onstage, or vice versa. This includes ledgehogging and spikes as well. MK is far better at this than Mario.

Gimping: Killing an opponent at low % with a move that has more knockback than normal from 0%. After like 60% it's edgeguarding. An example of this is Fox's shine or Mario's upB (which is why it still stagespikes at 0%). MK's...nearly everything does this. Mario's Cape and Fludd gimp work only because they have different affects but produce the same result if used for the purpose of gimping. MK is also FAR better at this, because he can more easily pressure an opponent offstage at low % and keep them off with his broken attacks, better recovery to follow offstage, and ridiculous priority/range that no one can compete with.

Mario can rarely get his opponents offstage at low % to the point where a DJ won't get them back. Not as frequently as MK anyway. And when they ARE offstage, Dair does much better at keeping them off than Cape and Fludd. I'd venture to say that Mario is second in line behind MK at gimping/edgeguarding, but not ahead of him; not by a long shot. MK looks at opponents and they practically jump offstage now.

 

[cutter]

Just to let you guys know, A2ZOMG also mains Mario as well as G&W.

 

[Matador]

Just to let you guys know, A2ZOMG also mains Mario as well as G&W.

Lol, thanks pal

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

THIS DISCUSSION IS ALL WRONG...





But it's pretty much right

 

[HeroMystic]

Just to let you guys know, A2ZOMG also mains Mario as well as G&W.

We know. He comes on the boards alot. I was mainly poking at Kitamerby.

Matador and Skyler both have a good point though. Mario has excellent gimp tools, but doesn't have the force to put the opponents off stage at low %. In which case, Mario really is second best to MK.

 

[Famous]

Lol, Monk holding a banana ftw.

 

[Kanzaki]

I like to do ledge canceled aerials to fair ^^

 

[Ray/Boshi]

Finally, A weekly character discussion on Mario.

Mario's average in every move & aspect of a Brawl character. That's his greatest pro. As well as his most detrimental con.

He has the potential to be around the top of mid tier at best. But that's one of them things. Great Mario players are as scarce as a skillful Peach main.

I like him for his wide array of specials. Cape, Fludd, Fireball. Use all 3 wisely on & off stage and you'l have fun doing so. All are useful and are an critically effective part of Mario's game.

Approach wise, powershielding can hurt Mario at times. But that hurts every character.

I still have fun with the Bair. People seem to only look at one thing. He's approaching my way offstage while i'm recovering, and his backs turned. Must be a Bair. Nah, it's a fakeout to a cape!

 

[Kitamerby]

Wrong, actually. Sure, it doesn't work against Snake (because he gets the cypher back after using the cape), but even if your opponent is 'good at recovering', Mario just has to drop down to where the opponent is going to recover and use his side-b. The timing takes about thirty minutes of practice to get down, which isn't that much.

A Mario main who has trouble timing the cape is a failure anyway.

Like I said, MK definately has the best edgeguarding. Mario, however, has the better gimping.

Hmm. I guess for many characters, gimping may be as simple as that, but many characters have more versatile recoveries and won't be gimped by simple tactics like that, such as a Lucario who can go to the ledge, the stage, or a wall, or a Pit who can just fly around you, while MK is certainly able to gimp anyone in the roster.

MK has better gimping and edgeguarding. I know that Mario's gimping ability is very good, but Meta Knight's gimping abilities are still better than Mario's.

Mario's D-smash sends people at a fairly low angle. It comes out the exact same speed as MK's D-smash too. Just saying.

Really? I've been able to DI it almost completely upwards at about a 70-80 degree angle. Strange. I guess it must've been because of Lucario's DI, not the move itself. Sorry, then.

Yah, his Fair is extremely slow but it is an option since he can set it up. Also, his Uair can be combined with his cape glide to quickly land it even against characters with good disjointed atks.

I'm sorry. I know this, but I was just trying to be funny, although I guess it failed. As I stated, Mario's gimp game is great, but I'm just saying Meta Knight's is better.

I find it hilarious that a non-Mario main is arguing about what Mario can or cannot do.

I've never talked about anything Mario can't do. I agree with you that Mario's gimp game is excellent against most characters, but I still firmly believe that Meta Knight's gimp game is better, for the reasons Matador stated, and for the simple fact that Meta Knight will be getting more kills at lower percents than Mario does, as well as the fact that Meta Knight's gimping abilities are universal, and should be able to gimp anyone theoretically, possibly even other Meta Knights.

*stuff*

Actually, though, I've always defined edgeguarding as simply preventing your opponent's return to the stage in an effort to rack up as much damage as possible, and/or gimp. I've always believed ledgepressure (preventing return from the ledge to the stage), off-stage edgeguarding, and on-stage edgeguarding fall into this category. For example, Lucario will almost always return to the stage due to his nice DI as well as overall floatiness, but for some characters, such as Marth or ROB, they can rack up quite a bit of damage by attempting to keep him off for as long as possible with their disjointed aerials (usually Fair), even if he'll still eventually recover. From what I've seen and fought, Mario does not excel at taking advantage of this when compared to characters such as GnW, Marth, or ROB.

To me, gimping is simply the outright prevention of returning to the stage, such as leaping offstage with Toon Link's Nair or Marth's Fair to knock them even farther away or into the blast zone, or using Mario's FLUDD and Cape to force them to come up short of the ledge, forcing them to lose a stock off the bottom blast zone. Mario is great at this if he can get his opponents offstage.

Mario's almost definitely near the top when it comes to outright gimping, but not so much with edgeguarding, meaning that he'll probably have to wait for his gimps until he's able to toss them offstage, which will probably be like what? Right after his combos end? If only he had some move like Fox's Dsmash to get certain characters with good DI offstage earlier and easier...

 

[Matador]

Post

*Searches desperately for hairs to split*

Aha! Fludd pushes people offstage. And Bair. And Fthrow. And some other moves.

Not as well as MK does with practically any direction he flicks the C-stick, but he's still capable.

 

[Judge Judy]

...we need a super jump of some sort...