• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Weekly Character Discussion: Link

Status
Not open for further replies.

LeeHarris

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
1,946
Location
New Braunfels / San Antonio / Austin, TX
I'm curious as to why there are so few Link players. :(

His smashes come out quick. D-smash comes out super fast and can kill light characters at around 100%. F-smash comes out pretty quick, has awesome range, and kills light characters at around 90%. U-smash has a huge improvement and sucks people in from the sides. It can kill most characters around 120% fresh.

Tilts are basically one hit versions of his smashes that are much slower and slightly stronger.

B-air rules. It does pretty good damage and it has pretty good knockback. It comes out super quick and has good range too. Fair is a good damage builder, especially if you hit with both and it will out range many attacks. Uair kind of sucks because of the massive landing lag and little knockback.

D-air deserves its own paragraph. It is ****ing amazing. It comes out so quick and it has tremendous knockback. I can kill light characters around 60% with it fresh. It is the meatiest attack in the game. By that I mean that he can destroy characters coming out of rolls on the ground, coming from the ledge, jumping from the ledge, hanging from the ledge, tethering to the ledge, etc. It hits as long as it's out and the knockback stays close to the same until the very end.

This video is kind of old, but it is a good example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epXoPONnOBc

My last tourney video of Link : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEoj0mcVLqU&fmt=18
 

Kyari

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
1,845
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana.
Slippi.gg
KYRI#103
Well, I dunno if you haven't been able to figure it out, but I use Link, so you're not the only one here who luffs him (but Link only loves me <3). I tend to play a very projectile-oriented game, which is nice because it keeps his other attacks from being stale, and with his really high vertical bomb throw it's easy to zone off sections against the other player. And a bomb heavy Link is going to love the dashing item reverse throwing (god I can't think of a good name for that technique) that Brawl has been given. No character can really do anything to punish it, they have to shield it or jump out of the way and they get no leverage from doing so. With a campy playstyle, almost all thrown bombs are followed up by boomerang unless you threw the bomb right after the boomerang. Really really fast characters get around bombs and so you shouldn't use them often against characters like Metaknight, Squirtle, Pikachu, etc, but it wrecks slower characters like Snake and Dedede. Link's bombs and boomerang defeat Snake's grenades, which force Snake out of camp where he doesn't do that well and you're still strong enough to KO him unlike many characters. Plus, neither of Snake's broken combo attacks (ftilt and neutral A) push Link too far for a shieldgrab, which is what often happens with most vs Snake unless you powershield the first hit, which eliminates one of Snake's only offensive options. Dedede can't compete in the spamming department, bombs and boomerang vs Waddle's is a win for Link, and like against Snake, Link's still strong enough to deliver a deathblow.

I don't find myself using his zair all that much because it's just not part of my playstyle (yet), but it's still decent. Samus outshines him in the zair usage so I think that might be why I tend to overlook the zair altogether. His fair's second hit is the saving grace of that move because it prevents people from shielding into a dashed grab. Link's boomerang, upon return, can prevent a lot of opponents from capitalizing on a mistake, or just throw their game off in general and keep them from hitting you with something dangerous, which is why I like my boomerangs to be traveling whenever I get the chance. Sliding upsmash (like Snake's) is great underneath platforms, my favorite stage for that is Battlefield. Nair and bair have always been great and, IMO, his bair is better than Melee's. His uair is, sadly, no longer a kill move, but it's still useable I suppose. Link's dair is good, you can bounce off of shields - and if you do bounce off of a shield you won't suffer any land lag or any punishable end lag. I tend to find myself dairing as an edgeguard just because of how long the move stays out and how much priority it has due to being a sword attack. The best part about his dair is that if anyone dies from it, they look like a newb.

Link's ledge camp game is pretty good in my opinion. Not the best, but a lot better than most who are considered in the "crappy tier", and it's mainly because of bombs. You can drop down and throw a bomb way up at the same time, and since the bomb throw goes so high it still goes quite a good distance above the stage. Nintendo was gracious enough not to cause his bomb to hit you in the air, so you don't have to worry about that either.

Link gets gimped though, badly. Brawl nerfed his grab length, and although sometimes he seems to grab when he really shouldn't, it is definitely less distant. One of the worst recoveries in the game by far, removing his zair stage grab (now it's only a tether), nerfing the Up B, and having a really short second jump contribute to this. Metaknight absolutely wrecks Link's recovery, which is probably just one of Link's worst matchups overall. Olimar's Pikmin (forward B) keep Link from bomb camping at all, but I don't think the matchup is that bad.

EDIT - About zoning: a common thing for me to do is to throw a bomb upward, a boomerang forward, and do a bair behind my vertical bomb "wall". Or, throw one bomb forward, a boomerang diagonally forward (up), and jump back into another bomb. Dropping his bombs out of a jump with Z can often throw a lot of players very off guard, since you can just shield as the bomb hits the ground and they just don't know about it unless they were expecting it already. Another zoning pattern is to throw a bomb upward, a boomerang diagonally forward (up), and shoot a bow. God, he has so many zoning patterns I could practically write a book about them.

EDIT -
D-air deserves its own paragraph. It is ****ing amazing. It comes out so quick and it has tremendous knockback. I can kill light characters around 60% with it fresh. It is the meatiest attack in the game. By that I mean that he can destroy characters coming out of rolls on the ground, coming from the ledge, jumping from the ledge, hanging from the ledge, tethering to the ledge, etc. It hits as long as it's out and the knockback stays close to the same until the very end.
I support this message. Dair is a very underexpected move. It's a little risky to use against a roll, but it still works and is a good way to punish someone through proper use of prediction. It's a great move to use anywhere that you can fall past the ground level and end up with no lag, like if a character is on a platform or near the edge of the stage. I would never condone fast falling the move though, you really REALLY don't want to endure the massive landing lag. Also, people who think they can get inside your character and spot dodge an attack and counterattack get pissed off when you use the very meaty SH dair on them. Dair hopping shields is a very satisfying experience if you ever get to do it, then landing with no lag, so great :D.

I think Link is one of the best examples of how Brawl has heavy counters. He can tear Snake apart and Dedede, but Metaknight or Pikachu just destroy him. He forces campy characters out of camp (with the exception of Olimar), spams all over slow characters, but still too slow to do anything to a really fast character. Link is definitely better than bottom tier, but Link's not going to be able to match the recovery of most of the best characters, which will probably keep him pushed down beneath the top tier or two. Plus he's just so cute, and adorable :D How could you not have fun using him? I giggle every time I throw into a falling bomb or whenever one bomb sends a character into a second bomb.
(Note: When I say he "tears Snake and Dedede apart", it isn't to say that he counters the heck out of them, but just that he is at least even if not at a bit of an advantage, despite his alleged "bottom tier" "placement". However, Metaknight does counter the hell out of Link.)

EDIT: To Undrdog - Kind of a moot point, but his recovery is still at least way better than it was in SSB64, lol. it only gave him the vertical reach of his second jump :(.
 

Undrdog

#1 Super Grimer!
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 24, 2004
Messages
5,587
Location
Aberdeen
Link to me was one of those characters that I picked up, saw the obvious potential, and immediately knew he had way too much going against him. His recovery makes me very sad and in this game where most characters can survive for years on end, I can't help be think of this Link as SSB64 Link.

Pivot Sliding when you get it down does help Link develop some Melee mindgames, so that's something to keep in mind I guess. The least they could've done though was allow Link to charge his Up-B in the air in order to get more out of it. v_v Link's recovery his been terrible in all three games now. He's Nintendo's biggest selling point now-a-days and gets not Smash lov'n.
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
For now, all I want to say is that I personally think Link could end up being one of the more technical characters in the game. Take a look here: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=V0u3sUOShcI

That video is a good showcase for some of the things Link can do. I'm definitely impressed with what I've seen out of Link players, and with time I think Link can definitely be better than most people think he is now. When the game was first released I thought Link was one of the worst in the game, but I realize now that he just has a completely different playstyle than before. I'm looking forward to seeing what Link will be like in the future.

EDIT: Also, I think so few people play him because, IMO, spacing is essential for him so it gives him a high learning curve.
 

Kyari

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
1,845
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana.
Slippi.gg
KYRI#103
Holy ****, Zair edgeguarding is hot ****. Some really nice Link tricks in there..... I'm not sure if I think arrows are much more than gimmicky, but arrow cancels are still really cool. I've seen myself zair grab the edge when DI'ing along the stage and I always thought it was some kind of freak accident (not glitchy, but some crazy accidental DI input + zairing at the right time).

This video makes me actually want to try him against better characters though ^-^
 

Undrdog

#1 Super Grimer!
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 24, 2004
Messages
5,587
Location
Aberdeen
EDIT: Also, I think so few people play him because, IMO, spacing is essential for him so it gives him a high learning curve.
Or the learning curve is more frustrating then difficult. I'm sure any Link main has taken well more then his fair share of licks just trying to become tourney worthy.
 

Scamp

Smash Master
BRoomer
Joined
May 30, 2002
Messages
4,344
Location
Berkeley
EDIT: Also, I think so few people play him because, IMO, spacing is essential for him so it gives him a high learning curve.
Or the learning curve is more frustrating then difficult. I'm sure any Link main has taken well more then his fair share of licks just trying to become tourney worthy.
Actually, I think the better point is: Why would you use Link when you could use Young Link instead?

EDIT: TOON Link. Gah. I'm stuck in the past.
 

Undrdog

#1 Super Grimer!
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 24, 2004
Messages
5,587
Location
Aberdeen
Too many people have issues with light characters. As you sort of hinted towards, people are stuck in the past and are looking for fast fallers they can be fast with. That's my take anyway. Besides, Link users are pretty hardcore. They know he blows but they won't give him up. That's why there are like, four of them total.
 

LeeHarris

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
1,946
Location
New Braunfels / San Antonio / Austin, TX
Actually, I think the better point is: Why would you use Link when you could use Young Link instead?

EDIT: TOON Link. Gah. I'm stuck in the past.
Better smashes, better range, better zair, way better dair, better projectile game, he's the fastest faller in the game (which can be good or bad), and he looks awesome in gold.

;)

Link's neutral jab has awesome range it comes out uber fast. It seems like it doesn't hit as far as it looks though. I've paused it at times before where the sword looks like its stabbing through them but they don't actually get hit.

I chase way off the stage with a full hopped no FF dair against most characters. It has stupidly ****ing awesome priority and it will destroy most people if they have a set trajectory. It owns characters like Ganon, Luigi, DDD, Link, Falco, Fox, Mario, Marth, any tether user, and more. If you miss you just jump and up B back to the stage because it has awesome range and priority.
 

Kyari

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
1,845
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana.
Slippi.gg
KYRI#103
Better smashes, better range, better zair, way better dair, better projectile game, he's the fastest faller in the game (which can be good or bad), and he looks awesome in gold.

;)

Link's neutral jab has awesome range it comes out uber fast. It seems like it doesn't hit as far as it looks though. I've paused it at times before where the sword looks like its stabbing through them but they don't actually get hit.

I chase way off the stage with a full hopped no FF dair against most characters. It has stupidly ****ing awesome priority and it will destroy most people if they have a set trajectory. It owns characters like Ganon, Luigi, DDD, Link, Falco, Fox, Mario, Marth, any tether user, and more. If you miss you just jump and up B back to the stage because it has awesome range and priority.
He looks awesome in everything except "drow elf Link". The Link fandom that popped up in Melee was rampant, but I can't wait to see how many of these I see in major tournament pools.

Also, about the neutral jab combo, to Lee: Have you tested to see if the first two hits combo into his other smashes like the video suggest? I haven't been able to try it yet, but I could have sworn you could shield after hit 2 before the 3rd neutral A hit anyway.
 

CORY

wut
BRoomer
Joined
Dec 2, 2001
Messages
15,730
Location
dallas area
there's also the jab cancel, which is just tapping down/back after a jab connects to stop the jab combo and then add in whatever you want. it seems to be slightly faster than a jab-jab-wait, but i can't say for sure as i haven't been able to consistently do it against people : /
 

Kyari

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
1,845
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana.
Slippi.gg
KYRI#103
One thing that helps a ton against edgeguarders is throwing your boomerang forward, which seems obvious but it just helps so much I have to say it. And having a bomb as well in your hands, throwing your boomerang plus your bomb to cover a lot of your weak points makes recovering much less stressful.
EDIT: I've actually noticed I usually throw bomb first, then boomerang. I guess either pattern can work though depending on situation, I just usually throw the bomb down to force them out of the spot they're at and then wherever they go I can throw the boomerang at them afterward.

With reference to the first paragraph of my first post - after a dashing reverse-bomb throw, the opponent usually shields and I like to dash away again just a little and throw my boomerang at them as well, which often either hits them and leads into a setup for something else or they shield it too and remain defensive.

Also, out of the space animals I would say only Falco gives Link a hard time. Fox's and Wolf's shine, while they both do reflect your projectiles, aren't being thrusted forward at you (which makes your projectiles MUCH more likely to hit you again) and you can bait a projectile shiner into doing it just so you can get a grab or a smash in, but against a Falco his shine's forward thrust prevents you from getting in too close if you aren't shielding it (which means if you are shielding it, you weren't throwing an item anyway). Also, Fox's lasers don't disrupt your approach and you can very easily powershield Wolf's lasers and get through to him, whereas Falco's are much more rapid and force you to jump over them, which is never fun to deal with. Although in combat Falco isn't fast enough to get all around Link's attacks, he's still definitely the hardest of the 3 to deal with and I'd much rather pick another character than deal with Falco.

About Link's downsmash - I've grown to come dependent upon turning around quickly into a downsmash, whether you shield an attack or spot-dodge or land on the ground while a character runs in your direction. It catches a lot of people off guard and if they go past the first hit in whatever manner, they usually eat the second one. His downsmash is just a really good move to use in lots of situations anyway which takes away most of its killing potential, but I think making it a combative staple more than makes up for this.
 

KishPrime

King of the Ship of Fools
BRoomer
Joined
Jun 22, 2003
Messages
7,739
Location
Indiana
Didn't have time to finish that video yet, but it is one of, if not the, best instructional video I've ever seen. Sweet work. I'll come back to it later.
 

Cyphus

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 11, 2002
Messages
3,086
Location
Austin, TX
i think link is severely underrated cuz everyone is hawt for toon's ****.
link's projectile game alone is enough to give half the cast alot of trouble approaching.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
But which half? :p
The bad half.

With the new air dodges and powershielding mechanics... his projectiles are pretty lame. They aren't particularly powerful and aren't fast enough to be surprising. They're actually really low on the "usefulness" list; of course, they're up against Falco's blaster and ROB's gyro and Toon Link's better projectiles, but still.

The thing that really holds Link back though is his recovery. I play Ness on the side as a fun character, and he's pretty amazing. Except that once you are off the stage, your opponent can just hover around you and you die. You don't even have to hover around Link. He just dies because his recovery is so awful; if he is hit once while off the edge he's a goner.
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
Indeed, its sad and rather strange just how bad they made Link's recovery.

And I'm ready to move this whenever you're up to writing the summary, Lee.
 

LeeHarris

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
1,946
Location
New Braunfels / San Antonio / Austin, TX
The bad half.

With the new air dodges and powershielding mechanics... his projectiles are pretty lame. They aren't particularly powerful and aren't fast enough to be surprising. They're actually really low on the "usefulness" list; of course, they're up against Falco's blaster and ROB's gyro and Toon Link's better projectiles, but still.

The thing that really holds Link back though is his recovery. I play Ness on the side as a fun character, and he's pretty amazing. Except that once you are off the stage, your opponent can just hover around you and you die. You don't even have to hover around Link. He just dies because his recovery is so awful; if he is hit once while off the edge he's a goner.
I think you have some kind of burning hatred for Link. His projectiles are great. I don't know you can say his projectiles are lame and Falco's lasers are great. Falco's lasers are so amazingly easy to get around (especially if you are a character like ROB) and they do hardly any damage at all. Also, how are Toon Link's projectiles better? They are slower, do less damage, and they have less applications (no tornado boomerang thing).

If you really think that getting knocked off once dooms Link you have been playing some ****ty Links. If you have a double jump left and you didn't get hit by a horizontal move you can easily make it back to the stage.

KishPrime: the non-space animal, non-floaty half. It is much harder for Snake to get around Link's projectiles and edgeguarding than it is for MK or ROB.

Also, Link is amazing in lightning mode. Everyone should play lightning mode. And send me $100 through Paypal.
 

Gimpyfish62

Banned (62 points)
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
12,297
Location
Edmonds, Washington
link is bad lol

his projectiles are alright but they really aren't disruptive enough just because that's how most projectiles work in brawl.

Link's recovery is dreadful I don't know how you don't admit that mate... It's just too easy to KO him. When almost every character in the game can recover from pretty much anything that doesn't actually KO them having a poor recovery is a bigger deal IMO
 

Kyari

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
1,845
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana.
Slippi.gg
KYRI#103
The bad half.

With the new air dodges and powershielding mechanics... his projectiles are pretty lame. They aren't particularly powerful and aren't fast enough to be surprising. They're actually really low on the "usefulness" list; of course, they're up against Falco's blaster and ROB's gyro and Toon Link's better projectiles, but still.

The thing that really holds Link back though is his recovery. I play Ness on the side as a fun character, and he's pretty amazing. Except that once you are off the stage, your opponent can just hover around you and you die. You don't even have to hover around Link. He just dies because his recovery is so awful; if he is hit once while off the edge he's a goner.
You know airdodges are just potential setups into being hit by something else. I do it all the time to people who think they're safe now just because they can airdodge with less punishment by feigning an attack into doing something else right when they're out of it. Like Melee (but to a lesser extent), it's still better to attack than airdodge while being juggled.

Ness's recovery is worse than Link's. Link's biggest problem is his horizontal recovery, and if you're a Link player you should just diagonally DI most things regardless (up and left or up and right), which gives you more horizontal recovery. Plus, as I already said you can throw your projectiles to keep people off of you.

I don't think that Link's one of the best characters, let's not take this the wrong way - but I do think that if you look at what everybody in C tier or below has going for them, and then look back at some of the advanced things Link can do + smart play, that you'll see him easily being better than bottom.

EDIT: I'll also argue against Toon Link having better projectiles. Toon Link's boomerang, while it does always have a hitbox, doesn't screw up approaches and can't be an amazing ledgeguard like Link's, and as far as I know TL can't arrow cancel. Plus, if you count the Zair as a projectile, then yeah.

I know you're better than me, but I'm going to take you on with my Link when we get to Warsaw this weekend (if you're there, that is!) :p
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
I'll be there. $5 MM? You can be Link and I can be ROB, and then I can throw you off the stage and hit you with a laser after you jump to stop your momentum and then you fall to your death.
 

Kyari

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2002
Messages
1,845
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana.
Slippi.gg
KYRI#103
Lol, $5 MM Link vs ROB. This sounds like the gayest **** ever, lol. I'll make sure to get that much more money from the ATM before I go.
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
The users are getting rabid for the summary/update. As fun as it is to tease them, we should probably move the thread soon ^_^
 

LeeHarris

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 19, 2007
Messages
1,946
Location
New Braunfels / San Antonio / Austin, TX
Link is a character with great strengths and some massive weaknesses. His attacks are strong and quick, he has great range, and he can build up damage quickly. He sounds like the perfect character. Unfortunately his recovery is close to, if not the worst recovery in the game.

Link's forward smash can do a full 35% with both hits. It can kill light character around 90% with ease. Down smash is very quick as well and fresh it can kill many characters before 100%. His quick neutral jab combo is great for building up damage and keeping the opponent spaced. His aerials are powerful, quick, and 3 of the 5 have hardly any or no landing lag. His zair is the second best in the game and it comes out instantly with great range and 0 landing lag.

Link's dair is an amazing move. It seems to have the highest possible priority, it can kill lighter characters around 60%, and it stays out for a long time. It can be used as a meaty attack to destroy opponent hopping from the ledge, jumping from the ledge, rolling onto the ledge, etc. It can be used to keep tether users from reaching the stage. You can even jump off the stage with a flying dair to keep them from coming back (don't try it against ROB!).

Although his projectile game isn't as great as it used to be, it's still good. The boomerang has unique characteristics now that allow it to be used as an offensive projectile, a defensive projectile, or an edgeguarding technique. The bombs can be thrown far and quick, allowing you to edgeguard opponents, keep offensive players at bay, or guarantee your safe recovery. Link is able to cancel the beginning animation of the arrow shot by jumping and shooting just before you land.

Unfortunately, Link has a massive, glaring weakness: his recovery. He is one of the fastest fallers in the Smash series and this works for him and against him. It allows him to execute quick aerials, but it also causes him to fall extremely fast and often to a quick death. Characters like ROB are very very tough matchups for Link because even though Link is fairly heavy, ROB can knock Link off the stage at a mid range percentage and finish him off with an easy edgeguard. His recovery is helped slightly by his tether, throwing projectiles at the edgeguarding opponent, and his high priority up B, but he's still too easy to pick off for space animals.

You have to wonder if Sakurai has some kind of burning hatred for Link. He gives him some of the best characteristics in the game, then severely gimps him with a horrible recovery. There aren't many Link players right now due to the high amount of technical skill required and his recovery, but maybe there will be a Link fever in a few years similar to the one in the Melee years.


Panda Edit: I totally forgot about this.

Everything after this post is general discussion.
 

samizdat

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
33
EDIT: I'll also argue against Toon Link having better projectiles. Toon Link's boomerang, while it does always have a hitbox, doesn't screw up approaches and can't be an amazing ledgeguard like Link's, and as far as I know TL can't arrow cancel. Plus, if you count the Zair as a projectile, then yeah.
(if you're there, that is!) :p
First off: TL can most definitely arrow cancel. He can actually do a thing called SHDA (short hop double arrow), which, combined with other arrow cancel techniques (as in nair -> DI away -> arrow cancel; bomb draw -> arrow cancel; DI -> bomb throw -> arrow cancel), makes Toon Link's projectile game look a ton better already. The ability to DI in conjunction with a projectile itself gives TL's game a huge advantage over Link's, not to mention over most projectile users.

Second off: TL's boomerang, in fact, does interrupt opponents approaching game. It hits people on its way back, and it's in fact most deadly when an opponent is trying to approach (if TL gets it off in time, that is). Not to mention that I would personally rather have a boomerang, when it's on the way back, give my opponent damage+a bit of hit-stun so that I can follow up with a quick attack, over the non-damaging redirection of the opponent (the result of which I often have a difficult time accurately predicting) of the gale boomerang.
 

Jewdo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
203
Location
Heaven or Hell
I'm also calling bullsh*t on the "Link's Projectiles >> Toon Link's" statement. The boomerangs, because they have different properties, are subjective, but the arrows do equal damage and knockback (both charged and uncharged). TL's arrows also stay out longer, allowing a Missile-Canceling-esque wall to be built with them. The bombs only deal 1% more, but because they're bigger, they're also easier to catch. I'd say which Link's long-range is better is a matter of what you're going for.

On a side note, neither Link's nor Toon Link's bombs can compete with Snake's grenades. Not only is there the damage difference (7-8% fresh bombs vs. 12% fresh grenades), but knockback for the bombs is pitiful while grenades can be lethal around the 150-165% range. Lastly, the sheer number of ******** tricks Snake can do with his grenades makes them far more flexible than bombs will ever be.

Yes, Link shuts down Snake's melee game, but I would challenge a good Link player to beat a good Snake at camping. Not saying Snake would outright destroy Link, but he certainly isn't an easy target either.

What's the purpose of these discussions - to glorify the week's current player, or deliver the facts? I have seen a few good arguments about Link this time, but several glaring omissions or mis-statements that make Link sound better than he actually is. Keep up the discussions, though - I don't remember seeing this issue in the other characters' discussions and I hope that both the pros and cons are more properly represented in the future.
 

Aurashade

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
983
Location
THE HALL OF FAME WHERE THE COOL PEOPLE GO
what is this, like a staff discussion? holy crap, not to mention Link is one of the worst characters. You know, figuring that since this thread is a couple days old now you'd think to sticky my thread and read what I, deva and skler have to say. I speak for the three of us when I say he's terrible, because he is. Don't debate this and turn it into a flame war PLEASE.
 

BardicKnowledge

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
6
I think that Toon Link's slower falling speed are prompting many more people to experiment with him and immediately dismiss (adult) Link as "too slow" or "too heavy" without really giving him a fair shot.

With that said, I would agree with those people in that it's a problem. However, the Gale Boomerang is better in a variety of situations -- the best of which is recovery assist after the throw IMO. His Dair is also much better outside of casual play (where people can't dodge TL's Dair).

Arrows, when not canceled, are mostly a waste -- they either take too long to charge up or move too slowly uncharged to make a big difference. The canceling helps quite a bit, but he'll still never have the harassing power that the space animals or Pit do. I don't play enough Link to know specific uses for these outside of canceling -- could someone provide some examples of good situations to use arrows in?

As far as the bombs, while they are good for spacing purposes (and after a Zair, which is a separate discussion entirely), I wish they could compete with Snake's rockets / grenades for damage or Pit's arrows for spacing. Right now they do not, and I hope that someone finds some neat things to do with them to bring Link's projectile game back up to speed.

I think I'm going to try to chart a direct comparison of Link and Toon Link's moves this weekend assuming I don't find one in either character's specific forums. I'll post my results when I finish -- it should turn up some interesting results.
 

BardicKnowledge

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
6
Alright, my movelist by percent is done for both chars for quick comparison. The 2nd numbers given are what it takes to kill Capt. Falcon from the middle of FD. I realize that he's probably not the best target, but hey, it's something.

In any case, onward! Hopefully this will assist further discussion of Link and the obvious comparison to his smaller counterpoint.

Link

UTilt 9,154
DTilt 12,200
FTilt 13,146

USmash 4-3-10 (17), 153
DSmash 14F, 149F, 17B, 134B (F is facing the opponent, B is facing away and hitting with the 2nd swing)
FSmash 15, 146 **at close range, sends the opponent backwards

Zair 4-6 (10)
Nair 10, 180
Fair 9-12 (21), -150 **the first hit doesn't kill below 200%, you must whiff and connect with the 2nd swing
Uair 15,160
Bair 4-7 (11), no kill before 200%
Dair 22,106

Sword-spin 12, 158 uncharged, 19/88!! charged
Bombs 8, no kill
Boomerang 5, no kill
Arrows 4 uncharged (and canceled), 12 charged. No kill

and Toon Link

UTilt 9,153
DTilt 9, no kill below 200%. **Note that this sends foes backwards, NOT up as Link's does
FTilt 9, 208

USmash 15, 130
DSmash 6-11 (17), 155. If only the backswing hits then 11, 154
FSmash 10-13 (23), 108. Cannot send foes backwards

Zair 4
Nair 10, 180 (possible to hit with both swings on a crossup)
Fair 13, 140 (advantage because of the difficulty of getting only the 2nd hit)
Uair 14, 144
Bair 10, 180
Dair 16, 184

Sword-spin 12 uncharged, 19 charged. Will not kill at 200% either way :(
Bombs 7. Not anywhere near 2x explosion range as has been stated, MAYBE slightly bigger range. I doubt it, but it needs more testing
Boomerang 11 if up close, 8 if at max range.
Arrows 4 uncharged, 12 charged.

Besides the yellow numbers which represent clear advantages in killing percents (or the boomerang's damage), there are some interesting stats. Nair is 10 on both chars even though they are two completely different moves. Also of note is that the DTilt sends players different directions depending on character (noted above, but worth mentioning again).

Both are approximately the same strength in many cases -- after seeing these numbers, I feel that which you pick depends on how you want to play them and how heavy you like your characters. TL will approach better because of the aerial sword swings and speed, while Link plays a campier game with the Gale Boomerang and multi-hit aerials that punish the quick approach.

The numbers aren't everything -- I prefer Link's USmash to TL's because I feel it dash cancels better, for instance. Still, I hope that people find this helpful!
 

Deva

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 2, 2006
Messages
1,704
Location
Spokane, Wa
Wow, I'm surprised so many mods and good players think he's good lol. Link sux, no doubt about it.

And seriously, unless someone else here has been consistantly placing well with him at something bigger than local tournaments, don't even try to argue lol. You have no idea how bad Link is at the competetive level.
 

adumbrodeus

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
11,322
Location
Tri-state area
Ah, Link, I was wondering when he'd appear.

Most technical character, I'm not sure about that, but he does have a lot of interesting ATs because of his ranged attacks in general.The disjointed hitboxes everywhere are also a bonus and promote good spacing, but definitely not a character for the timid because controlling those projectiles as well as his myriad ATs are a pain if you don't devote a lot of time.

Spacing (in both the melee and ranged sense) is, as the hint said, utterly essential for Link, because his ranged camping abilities are one of his most important tools. Furthermore in melee distance, his disjointed hitboxes allow him to edge out a lot of other chars in range, granting a measure of additional safety (except for against characters with long hitboxes, cough cough marth).

Thankfully he has some really nice tools for spacing. The bombs, liberally used, allow him to disrupt an opponents movement, even if they don't hit, allowing even the rather slow link to move unmolested. The essentially lagless z-air also provides a great tool for this especially because of it's range, it can pressure any opponent, either by doing damage and hitstun, or hitting sheild, allowing for some relatively unmolested movement when you use a short-hopped zair. Then, when you just want to move an opponent closer, a "missed" gale boomerang provides a great tool for this.


What does this spacing provide? The ability to projectile spam of course! And what an array of options he has. His neutral b, the arrows can have their lag canceled for all sorts of nice little tricks, or simply used as cover for other projectiles or approaches. Since they go reasonably far no matter how long they're charged in this game, they're reasonable to spam as well. The Boomerang on the other hand, isn't really a spammy weapon. There can only be on out at a time so... play smart. As an attack, it's more useful as a persevering threat to maintain space rather then intended to hit because of it's speed. In general it's more useful for it's movement properties. Still, it does damage in a pinch, and can be used to cover for other projectiles.

And then there's bombs, god's gift to Link players. These projectiles can be thrown at a variety of angles or simply dropped. Once they're out, they can be used as needed. Furthermore, they have the advantage of openly beating a couple of reflectors (for example, fox). Most others can be beaten by good timing (ex. falco), or throwing the bomb to the ground next to the reflecting party (ex. wolf). In addition there are also a couple of extremely useful ATs that allow you the freedom to have the bomb while doing other things that would normally result in a throw, making these projectiles highly versitile. Overall, USE THEM, space with them, throw other projectiles then use them, mindgame the opponent into reflecting then catch them off guard, spam them, but USE THEM. Keep in mind though, they can be caught... but waiting a but also leaves them primed to explode making catching them a nasty proposition anyway. Still be careful, often it's better to throw at the ground near an opponent if possible, overall, you just have to try to avoid that with mindgames and proper placing.


Then there's physical attacks. The nice thing is dijointed hitboxes, which means additional priority generally, and an overall safer attack. His jab combo is nice, but the third hit isn't particularly useful, jab cancel into something else. His f-smash is a good way to do early damage because of the potential 35%, but if you whiff it, you're vulnerable, especially because of the two hits. Speaking of which, you can delay the second attack, helpful against some defensive tactics. F-smash also is a nice killing move, so keep that in mind and make sure it's fresh when you're in killing percents. Speaking of combo attacks, the fair is pretty useful in that regard, it has a potential 2 hits, and often if you only hit with the second one, you'll have the opportunity to follow up with, for example, an f-tilt.

Up-smash, it's solid, it's best use seems to be dash-attack canceled approaches, which is very important since Link is quite slow and therefore has a lot of difficulty approaching well.


Don't forgot dair, it's good kill move, but leaves you vulnerable if you wiff. If/When you hit the ground there's heavy lag. Furthermore, it takes a long time to end, so you could be vulnerable in the air a while. Generally, don't use it unless you're guaranteed the hit, ESPECIALLY over the edge.

Uair stays out for a while as I'm sure you noticed. It's also good for verticle killing, abuse that.

Grabs are unfortunately, a bit lackluster. However his shield grab has the nice fact that, it's near impossible to hit his shield with a melee attack and not be in range of shield-grabbing. Since it's (reletive to the rest of his moveset), it's a good response to a sheild aerial.


A few nice ATs make his ledge-guarding game pretty awesome, he can renew the invincibility frames on his edgehog, AND push the foe away with the galeboomerang without give an extra ^b.

Unfortunately, the edge is also his biggest weakness. No ifs ands or buts, his recovery sucks, especially in this game where recoveries are so much better. Thankfully, he doesn't move as much as some other characters. Unfortunately this doesn't save him at higher percents. At least it's priority is good.

Another major weakness, generally speed. Link really needs his space to fight, it's very difficult for him to compete with somebody that outspeeds him because his projectiles all require some wind-up (bombs to pull out, the rest to launch) and most of his melee advantage depends on being able to outspace the opponent, furthermore, his attacks aren't the fastest on the planet. When faced with a speedy opponent that are in his face like Marth or Metaknight, they're in control of the pace of the match. Certain characters are built to be able to wait for an opening (specifically a certain character that hits like a bus full of fat people), but not Link, his spacing needs and projectile heavy game make him need to be in control.


So there you have it, my general opinions on Link as a char. He's only my secondary so I'm not a perfect source but... I think it's pretty fair.





Wow, I'm surprised so many mods and good players think he's good lol. Link sux, no doubt about it.

And seriously, unless someone else here has been consistantly placing well with him at something bigger than local tournaments, don't even try to argue lol. You have no idea how bad Link is at the competetive level.
I think you don't quite understand...

Link would be a good char if not for a few weaknesses (biggest of which is the recovery). Like with all the chars, they're discussing how to make the most of what he has.

Saying, "he's useless, play a different char" doesn't help much for the people who play or are interested in playing Link.
 

Izaw

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
688
Location
Sweden
Well, just like Gimpyfish said. Accept your characters weakness. Links biggest weakness is his recovery. He also said to learn to go around the weakness and try to avoid situations where you can get gimped by your opponents just because of the bad Up-B. Once people start focusing ALOT on really really just staying on stage and avoid to get launched out of the stage as often as possible by playing defensivly, I think Link will be having bigger chance against other characters.

Also.. Link does have great combos, its just not the same as in melee. You just really have to master your Zair and DAC and you can combo easly.

There some really good and "rare" techniques too with Link. Jab Lock can be a 0% to kill "combo" if you learn to time it right. Also, when you have learn'd all the important and usefull techniques, you can start messing around with other techniques that really is just good for mindgaming with. Like ZAC (Z Attack Catch) or F-smashing with bomb. Not saying these mindgames always work, but it's worth doing sometimes.

Sorry for my funny english btw ;P
 

Swordplay

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
1,716
Location
Chicago
Look Deva and Shade are probably 2 of the best link players I know out there. If they say he sucks balls I am almost forced to agree. Yet at the same time I feel the mods are right. Once people begin to learn the AT's being the technical character Link is, I think he will get off of bottom tier and make low tier.

What I am trying to say is that I understand the potential but for now it doesn't look good for link players if you want to win a tourney.

I think link is a counter pick character but you will need another character to main to win tourneys in my opinion.

I personally picked marth as my main and link as my counter pick because they are 2 completely different sword styles and I like swords. It comes down to match ups and counter play in the end...I think..
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom