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Weekly Character Discussion: Game&Watch

BlueTerrorist

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
720
Location
New York
I feel this character needs discussion now. Here's the rules:

- DO NOT SPAM IN THIS THREAD!!!
- Do not create another topic for Game&Watch, discuss it here or I'll see to it your thread is closed at Sonic speed. No need to spam the boards with something similar to this.
- I know there will be debates, I only ask that you keep it civil. Tell the people you bring from the other boards that too. Any hint of flaming and stupidity that said person will be dealt with swiftly, I'm not gonna tolerate that mess here.

What do you say about Game&Watch?
 

lil cj

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
1,328
Location
Los Angeles, CA
Game and Watch is deadly
Especially for Sonic
Since Sonic has low KO power,G&W's light weight weakness is not affected.
If Sonic tries to spin dash/charge GAW can jus cancel it with his jab or the turtle
I guess the only way to beat GAW with Sonic is to use aerials and grab him alot.
 

Blapius

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Messages
86
Location
Brandon, FL
NNID
blapius
3DS FC
1435-6036-1685
- Sonic isn't the only one who has an exceptional tech-chase DThrow; look out for GAW's. Roll away as soon as possible, forgoing any urge you have to "get up" attack, since most GAW's follow the DThrow with a (lagless) DSmash.

- Be careful assuming you can punish a poorly-aimed Dair, not only because there is an area-of-effect component to the landing, but also the fact that GAW can laglessly flow into another move. Remember that you aren't the only one thinking about setups--the GAW might be counting on you to make a move. That being said, give shieldgrabbing a try, if anything.

- Enough can't be said about the Turtle (Bair). It will eat your shield. It will eat your children. It is death incarnate.

- The Toot-Toot (Uair) will be used liberally to prevent your Sonic from playing his air game how you'd like. This move can also kill springs, which is dandy. I'm still not sure how to get to the ground the fastest to end the madness, beyond spamming airdodges, Dairs, and Homing Attacks, so hopefully someone else will chime in here with the best method.

- Don't assume one little spot-dodge is enough to neutralize GAW's FSmash--the Match's hitbox has a long duration.

- Here's your friendly reminder that GAW's Deep Sea Helmet (USmash) has super armor upon execution. Might want to avoid trying to interrupt the charge of one of these, though this could be another one of those shieldgrab situations.

- I've seen several GAW players recover from low rather than high, assumedly to avoid parachuting into a precarious edgeguard. If you encounter a player with this tendency, take it upon yourself to go for the stage spike.

- In general, GAW has a lot of moves with very little lag, meaning you'll have to avoid any of Sonic's moves that have high lag. Good thing that's only like one or two, right?
 

Neb

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 19, 2008
Messages
1,810
Location
Melbourne, FL
Pretty good summary, though, G&W's Usmash doesn't have SA, just incredible priority. Should I have told you that? lol.
 

Blapius

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 19, 2008
Messages
86
Location
Brandon, FL
NNID
blapius
3DS FC
1435-6036-1685
Pretty good summary, though, G&W's Usmash doesn't have SA, just incredible priority. Should I have told you that? lol.
Really? I could have sworn I'd seen it listed in some Super Armor thread on here . . .

Maybe I'm imagining things.
 

Binx

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
4,038
Location
Portland, Oregon
The problem with GnW is that his bair is amazing, causing you to not only play defensively because if it's range and priority as well as its landing hit box, but also playing defensively largely without good use of your shield, this move pokes like a 65 year old Alzheimer's patient.

I don't have loads of experience using Sonic but I think your best bet is just very well timed grabs and if you are technical enough to do it, the forward b should be able to hop over the ending hit box on the turtle and get you into a footstool jab lock combo. As for as KOing I think its pretty much down you your smashes since GnWs recovery is not that gimpable, your going to be looking for either Nair to lock smash combos, the footstool jab combos or high damage bairs to finish him off.
 

Blapius

Smash Apprentice
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Jan 19, 2008
Messages
86
Location
Brandon, FL
NNID
blapius
3DS FC
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It was said too, but was later proven false.
All right, thanks for clearing that up.

Though there is no SA, the high priority of the move still means it would behoove a Sonic to hold off on attempting to interrupt the charge-up in favor of waiting it out for a shieldgrab.
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
Messages
6,966
Location
GA
First off, in this matchup, it's a supergood idea to dodge manually.

That is, if he's approaching, walk or run away. Or jump.

Now a short list of things you can take advantage of:

D-air:
- Most GAW's will follow this up with smashes. However, it's possible to do a running/sliding shield into this ('neutralizes' its push, so you can grab him out of it). Just keep in mind that it has a fall attackbox and a landing attack box, so don't grab TOO early. If you can P-shield, do it.
- Another interesting thing to note is that when you U-throw, GAW will try to outprioritize you. This is successful for the most part. However, here's an interesting situation: U-throw>Spring>U-air kill.

Now, GAW is about 20% lighter than Marth (eg, 115% for that kill to work on marth = 95% for GAW). If you do this at 95% on an unstale U-throw, it will count as a combo. However, chances are you won't have an unstale U-throw, and hitstun will be lowered, so he can D-air you and possibly either Keyspike you down or hit you with the late hit and send you flying upwards for the death. You can take advantage of this and throw him at 115-120%. Why? Because he will do a D-air stall, but in the perfect height range for YOUR u-air to outprioritize him.

Keep in mind % adjustments for DI and when you're chasing.

F-air:
- I believe this is the most punishable of his aerials. It has the highest landing lag of all his aerials, so a whiffed one means a free attack. Since it's a 'single hit' attack, you can shield it once and render it useless.

Some counters to this move would be:
- - walking out of range and punishing with your move of choice.
- - "Reverse stutter step" (Perform a back>forward+A at dashdance speed) - which is nice if they're not doing WOP and try to "tip" you with it.

B-air:
- I haven't personally used this yet, but I saw on a thread in the GAW forums that if you have high enough shield, by all means, shield this move (and I'm not sure, but I think it said to dodge the final hit) and then grab him. Remember that since you have such amazing mobility, you can play hit and run until your shield returns. Reverse stutterstep works against this as well.

I believe that for both B-air and F-air, if you get the timing correctly, you can do a spincharge and hit UNDER him while he's in the air.

Smashes:
- GAW's F and Dsmash have lesser priority after their initial hit, and their power goes down, like a sexkick. If he misses, you can choose to clang your attacks with these (clanging generally isn't a good idea against GAW since your post-clang moves can be stopped by his much-faster tilts/jabs).


...or smash him out of it.

Also keep in mind that his Fsmash, Dsmash, and dash attack have deceptive hitboxes.

----------

Now for the random stuff that may be wrong:
Clangs:
- Sonic's Dash attack/spincharge vs: GAW D-tilt/jab

Keep in mind that as of this post, I've been playing Falcon a bit too much, so I'm not sure if this was done with Sonic's Fsmash or Falcon Punch >_>
- Punch defeats/outranges GAW's... Jab, D-tilt, F-tilt (?)
 

Napilopez

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
1,775
Location
Columbia University, NY
It doesn't seem to have been mentioned here, but I am almost completely sure Sonic's Uair totally outprioritizes G&Ws Dair. At the very least the seocond hit does, so use it wisely.

EDIT: nevermind, I just saw tenki mentioned it in his post.

P.S. Imma add you to my live messenger contacts tenki, I'd like to play you some time
 

MalcolmM

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Messages
1,565
Location
League of Legends, New Jersey
G&W is so annoying...

Tenki you are right as far as the b-air goes. You can shield most of it and then spot dodge the landing hit to time a grab. Thats about all you can do after the spot dodge though.

G&W does actually have lag on his moves, people are just using the wrong moves to punish them. Your F-tilt is about the only answer you will have. It can hit after shielding the D-air even if it pushes you off a bit. It works if you are able to fully shield the turtle (as rare as that is). It works if hes in the middle of SMASH Madness aka some odd combination of his smash attacks like U-smash to D-smash or something like that. Since his smashes have IASA frames moving from one into the other is very quick.

Sonic dies @ like 100% against G&W so once you reach the 90 area...its time to start playing in that incredibly defensive mode.

I honestly dont think G&W has anything that is outprioritized by sonic. His jab is the only thing that MAY be outprioritized.

Ummm his D-throw is insane depending on the skill of the player. if the G&W can get a good read on you what happens after the D-throw can be very fatal. DI can stop the obvious D-smash or jab to re-grab that most ppl will try. Teching the D-throw will also stop this, but tech rolling....can be a bit predictable. I, myself, have become predictable with this and found myself being up-smashed out of my tech roll. The whole throw is a giant mindgame so beware.

Oh yeah....and if they get frustarted enough or you for some odd reason have an insane read on your opponent...the D-smash only hits the ground. So if you jump OOS and do a bair you have no worries about being hit by it.

Everything else seemed pretty legit so far tho. Especially Tenki's words of advice about walking or running away. G&W ***** shields....so its just better to avoid it as much as possible against him.

Oh and last thing... Up-tilt kills if u hit them with it @ like 160. and in all honesty...ur up-tilt is going to b fresh...because how often do you get the opportunity to use that move?

should we add something like stages that are advantageous and disadvantageous for sonic in this matchup? jus asking
 

TwinkleToes

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
1,545
Location
MN
I like Smashville the most for this match-up (well, I like it most for a lot of them). Battlefield is pretty sketchy in my opinion so you should try to avoid that. If for some reason you can beat GAW in the air then by all means go BF but most of the time you'll find the platforms hinder what you're trying to do while letting GAW do hit and run on you.
 

MalcolmM

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 27, 2007
Messages
1,565
Location
League of Legends, New Jersey
yeah....BF is a rough one considering G&W Dair hits through the platforms....altho it does give u platforms so you have more manuverability in evading those annoying smash attacks of his. I dunno...i think BF could work, but there are defintely better options. I personally would avoid halbred/delfino like the plague. G&W jus takes the ledge in these stages and uses them to control the entire match. nairs from under the stage, up airs and up-bs all day...since they can go through the bottom of the level. I usually ban 1 of them if not both.

I played a G&W in tourney (lol...i play alot of these characters in tournament) and lost the second match and CP'd pokemon stadium. I actually REALLY like that stage recently. the opening part is fairly neutral, and 3 of the other 4 changes in the stage give you some sort of wall to DI down into and save your life from an F-smash, fair, dair or a late D-smash. also....if u time the ledgehog just right the ******** ledges of pokemon stadium will do all the gimping for u lol.

Im really basing that off of friendlies ive done against my friend recently and that brilliant idea I came up with during the tournament set(lol) so im not willing to definitively say its the greatest stage against him, but i suggest looking into it. I did win the match tho...=)
 

TwinkleToes

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
1,545
Location
MN
At least that. I think we should be pessimistic and say 70-30 GAW. Actually, even then a lot of GAW's would probably say we're being optimistic so I don't know.

What I do know is that if you don't train your *** off for this one you're going to get wrecked.
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Oct 13, 2007
Messages
12,542
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RPV, California
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A2ZOMG
Switch FC
SW 8400 1713 9427
Really bad matchup for Sonic. Sonic's number one weakness is priority. One of G&W's biggest strengths is in fact priority. Sonics's a sitting duck in the air, and not much better off on the ground.

G&W can stop all of Sonic's aerials with an Up-B, and his N-air is also really gay to work around. He can also U-air stall the D-air, and his own D-air beats almost every attack in the game.

G&W also has a really crazy D-tilt. It's spammable, and it has more range than any of Sonic's attacks.

The other thing about G&W is his kill moves, which are arguably the best kill moves in the ENTIRE GAME. They do a lot of damage and kill at really low percents, but the thing that truly makes them scary is that THEY ARE SAFE TO USE. They have almost no ending lag (plus amazing IASA frames), and the F-smash has really good lingering hitbox frames.

Oh yeah, and then there is G&W's techchase game. If he predicts you correctly at around 80-90% and you don't tech the throw, you die. Simple as that. He can techchase you with a Hyphen Smash, which can't be punished anyway if he misses. And don't do getup attacks against G&W's D-throw. He'll just D-smash that away. He has even more options such as jab -> regrab, tilts, yeah. It's crazy. Even if you tech the throw, he can still chase you and go for a regrab.

IMO, the best way to deal with G&W is to have a lot of balls for powershielding. If you can powershield his F-air or his Smashes, you can punish him with a grab from there. I try to do this when I play G&W dittos, but of course you need to also keep in mind that I do this because G&W's D-throw has a lot of setups against lightweight characters.
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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12,542
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A2ZOMG
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Lol, the B-air isn't what you need to worry about. Besides, he's not just going to use it when you can shield it. He can ledge pressure with it, or challenge any of your aerial attacks with it.

However, the D-tilt is so much more nasty to get around. Not to mention G&W's totally safe kill moves.
 

darkNES386

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
1,339
Location
West Lafayette, IN Downers Grove,
I just want to know how you get past a G&W that spams fair and bair all day. The guy who's beaten me twice now at the last two events I went to simply destroyed me with just those two moves. My only guess is that if I dash>shield cancel>roll behind I might be able to roll enough to get behind him. It would be questionable considering he can DI easily back if his hit is not successful.

I'm convinced this match up is worse than MK at this point. I will actually welcome a MK at this point because at least then I feel like I can create openings for myself with him. Help... please?

I'll even gladly upload the video from the event yesterday I was at where this G&W simply destroyed me.

What I do know is that if you don't train your *** off for this one you're going to get wrecked.
Ummmmm...... yeah.....
 

aeghrur

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
2,513
Location
Minnesota
Lol, Battlefield is like fishbowl heaven if your on the platforms... I think it's really advantageous to G&W there... >.<
 
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