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We need to talk about Lylat Cruise.

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cot(θ)

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There you have it.
It's not my fault you don't understand people in general don't see "being proficient in low gravity mode" or "taking advantage of the conveyor belts" as valuable smash bros skills that should determine the outcome of tournaments. You do, well good for you. But your values are different from everybody else's. That's all. End of discussion.

If you still don't get it you can imagine it like this : you like chocolate cakes, the rest of the world doesn't and you're looking for someone able to convince you that it tastes bad. It's futile.

Brawl- :laugh:
Fun was had with this mod, and I loved Lavaville. And I love playing Ganonball™ on Norfair in Brawl.
But what does it have to do with the competitive viability of Norfair ?

PS @cot(θ) : Sorry but it is indeed about intrusiveness. You don't have to believe me, just look at Melee and Brawl history. Neutrals and CP stages have been classified this way because of their intrusiveness. It might not have been a conscious choice, but the stage lists are there.
You can have competitive matches on Gamer, on MK8 and on Palutena's Triple Temple. Playing on them is just against the general consensus.
Stages originally started getting banned in Melee and Brawl because of Fox and MK. It's tempting to look back at Melee and Brawl now, see a watered-down stage list, and say "obviously the stages that remain are better for competition, so let's start Smash 4 with a similar stage list", but that approach is really flawed, and it totally ignores why those stages were banned in the first place.

It's sort of understandable that people don't want to learn new stages - after all, there's already a whole lot to take in in this new game, and it's easy to feel like you lost to the stage instead of your opponent for the first few matches. But that's not the right approach to competition, and that attitude sucks a lot of life out of the game. In the end, it's a lot less of a commitment to learn all the viable stages than it is to learn the ins and outs of every matchup.

Also, you can't have competitive matches on Palutena's Temple. Circle camping is a degenerate strategy that kills competition.
 

teluoborg

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What if I don't think being able to DI Diddy's dthrow is a valuable skill that should determine the outcome of tournaments*? That sounds absurd, right? Or, to keep it to stage-related things, what if I don't think being able to tech stagespikes is a valuable skill? We have enough stages where stagespiking is effectively impossible (Delfino, Duck Hunt, various Omega stages, Skyloft, Wuhu, Mario Circuit)... It's just a silly concept. Then again, I'm clearly in the minority, and the smash community has NEVER needed a good reason to ban things, so why start now? :glare:
Once again you missed the point. Read the part about the chocolate cake again.

Stages originally started getting banned in Melee and Brawl because of Fox and MK. It's tempting to look back at Melee and Brawl now, see a watered-down stage list, and say "obviously the stages that remain are better for competition, so let's start Smash 4 with a similar stage list", but that approach is really flawed, and it totally ignores why those stages were banned in the first place.
yeah Mute city and Jungle Kongo 64 were clearly banned because of Fox. And Jungle Japes in Brawl has clearly been banned because of MK, same for Luigi's mansion.
Check your facts yo, it's not just MK and Fox that can have degenerate strategies.
And even if they did, even if it was all MK's and Fox's fault then the stages would have been banned because they rewarded some kind of skill that wasn't valued by the community (MK sharking on Brinstar, Fox shinelocking people on Corneria) so my point is still totally valid. Edit : mixing up my arguments sry. You're right that it isn't about intrusiveness, just about rewarding unvalued skills.

It's sort of understandable that people don't want to learn new stages - after all, there's already a whole lot to take in in this new game, and it's easy to feel like you lost to the stage instead of your opponent for the first few matches. But that's not the right approach to competition, and that attitude sucks a lot of life out of the game. In the end, it's a lot less of a commitment to learn all the viable stages than it is to learn the ins and outs of every matchup.
Ad hominem, what I want and don't want has nothing to do with what should be legal and what shouldn't. I love playing on kongo 64 and that doesn't mean it should be legal. I hate Halberd with a passion, but you don't see me throwing temper tantrums at every major tournament.

Also, you can't have competitive matches on Palutena's Temple. Circle camping is a degenerate strategy that kills competition.
You can, Palutena's temple rewards the player that can circle camp the most effectively. But shocking news !! Circle camping isn't regarded as a valuable skill.
 
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ぱみゅ

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This is literally the first time I've heard of circle camping on Norfair.
Can you link to the specific time when the circle camping happens?

Not doubting you but I can't seem to find it by panning around...
This is why I used the word "borderline". It is not exactly circle camping, but some characters, namely Meta Knight, Wario, Sonic, and other very mobile characters could very easily abuse its layout to time out others in this stage.
I loved the stage and how it buffed obscure characters like Link and Ganondorf, but the strategy is so powerful it can't go ignored.


Back the original point, the hazards are not the reason it was banned.
 

S_B

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This is why I used the word "borderline". It is not exactly circle camping, but some characters, namely Meta Knight, Wario, Sonic, and other very mobile characters could very easily abuse its layout to time out others in this stage.
I loved the stage and how it buffed obscure characters like Link and Ganondorf, but the strategy is so powerful it can't go ignored.

Back the original point, the hazards are not the reason it was banned.
Even in SSB4, I can see too many ledges leading to degenerate gameplay, yeah...
 

Nidtendofreak

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Even in SSB4, I can see too many ledges leading to degenerate gameplay, yeah...
idk, Norfair could be pretty interesting with ledge trump tactics. 6 ledges to use after all.

As an aside, I kinda can't help by laugh when people think Lylat or Halberd is broken. When I was in Texas for Brawl I got to play on Pirate Ship. Neither of us got hit by anything unless the opponent forced us into it because both of us knew how the stage worked and its semi-pattern. I understand the newer issues that seemed to have popped up SSB4 for Lylat, but its still mind boggling to me...
 
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Once again you missed the point. Read the part about the chocolate cake again.
Yes, and my point is that that analogy is flawed. That it shouldn't be a matter of preference, but rather that we look at the game, remove what is broken, and then keep the rest as necessarily part of the gameplay.

You can, Palutena's temple rewards the player that can circle camp the most effectively. But shocking news !! Circle camping isn't regarded as a valuable skill.
Yes, do you know why it isn't? There are non-trivial reasons for it. It's not simply "we don't value this skill". It's "this skill devalues every other skill and is trivial to execute". Or, to put it another way, you could put me up against the very best Yoshi in the world, and I would just pick Fox or Shiek or Pikachu and win with absolutely no difficulty. Circle camping trivializes competition to the point that you might as well not compete in the first place. This is why we ban Palutena's Temple. It's not arbitrary and it has nothing to do with player preference.

Or, to try to fit it to your analogy, it's like if I didn't like chocolate cake, but I was in an eating competition where chocolate cake was on the menu. Saying "I don't like chocolate cake, therefore it should be removed" would not only defeat the entire purpose, it would grant legitimacy to the guy saying "I don't like tacos, please remove them", the guy saying "I don't like hot dogs", et cetera. If you don't value temporary low gravity play, why can't I not value any other arbitrary non-broken play element?
 
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Skarfelt

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The chocolate cake analogy is flawed because you don't have to practice eating cake to do it. You can't be better at eating cake than someone else.

I've seen the argument that the low gravity play means whoever knows their character better has a better chance of winning but I have to disagree there - whoever knows how their character interacts with the stage better has a better chance of winning and it's not something anyone can feasibly pick up and adapt to in thirty seconds.

That said, this is kinda falling on deaf ears because this thread is going round in a circle. We all have different ideas of what warrants a ban, what bans are for and so we're getting nowhere. To me, stages are banned if fighting my opponent isn't the optimal play, if I am punished for fighting my opponent or the skill of playing on that individual stage at any point outweighs the skill of simply playing. I just disagree that taking the time to play loads of games on Stadium 2 and learning how to play if effectively for every competitor is a fair use of their time.
 

fromundaman

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Does this thread even have a point anymore? Seriously... I think this is more about cake now than actual stage debate.


I guess I'll state my opinion regardless:

I think Lylat should be a CP. It is not as hard as you guys make it seem to abuse this stage. While you can't predict the exact moment actions get canceled, you CAN predict where it will happen and what sort of actions could get canceled.
As I said, some of the stuff you can do on this stage is dumb (Smash someone's shield on the engine to make them "Fall" to the side platform, then smash again to kill them during the knockdown) and should not be found on a starter since it does change some of the rules of the game.

However, this is stuff that's a lot easier to work around (And with) than many of you are making it out to be. There are some dumb things you can do on this stage, especially with certain characters (This stage is Pacman's playground), but it's no dumber than the stuff some characters can do on other universal CPs, and it's considerably less bad than some of the CPs I see some of the more liberal stage lists use (Skyloft and Kongo Jungle come to mind).
 

teluoborg

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And what exactly do you have against cake eating contests ?
JK, the thread has lost its purpose since everyone agrees Lylat shouldn't be a starter, so now it's just off topic discussions about BPC loving PS2.

Speaking of which I'm moving my answer to the relevant thread.

PS @ Skarfelt Skarfelt : you can get better at eating cake and you can certainly be better at it than someone else.
 
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stancosmos

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I just wanted to step into say that the game should not adapt to little mac, it should be the other way around. Yes mac is very easy to trump with stages, but he's also easy to trump with counterpicking characters. A game should never change to help out 1 character. By design, little mac is suposed to have glaring weaknessess, that's the only way his ridiculous ground game makes sense. It's rare that he feels like he's playing a fair game, it's always heavily one sided either for or against him. And although some stages make him way too good, or way too bad, that's no reason to ban a stage. I think as the meta evolves, mac will be used primarily as a counterpick once the stage is already decided.

Personally i like the idea of Lyat Cruise. A seemingly grounded stage but with the tilting it makes projectile/arial characters want to jump more. It's interesting for sure. And I do hope they fix the lip for more SDs, i know from a competitive side we should just adapt and fix our jumps, but for me i just switch to Sheik for this stage because CFal has the off chance of me forgetting about the lip thing and SDing. It just seems like an extra obstacle in the level that doesn't add anything to the actual fight. Removing it would just help the stage get picked more in competitions because less players will be scared of the SD. But i don't care if it stays, personally i can adapt to it.
 

ぱみゅ

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And what exactly do you have against cake eating contests ?
JK, the thread has lost its purpose since everyone agrees Lylat shouldn't be a starter, so now it's just off topic discussions about BPC loving PS2.
Correction: a faction voted that it should be moved to CP. Another party said that the whole Starter/CP system is wrong and with no distinction the stage is simply legal-worthy. This had implications with "what makes stages more fair" and by stating how bad this stage is, even a third faction rose saying it should be banned.
It went tangents because of its implications.

But at least we all agreed its current status is not good.


BTW, I don't want to continue with the cake analogy, but we're not here to determine what kind of food people like the most, but which kind is healthy or not for the game. This one stage a is an example of "not liked but not junk food either".
 
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Ulevo

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Alright. No more cake talk. To move this thread going forward, here's the consensus I see from the majority of the conversation thus far:

1) Regardless if Lylat should remain legal, it is not appropriate starter material.
2) Some people believe it should be banned, some people believe it should remain legal, but counter pick only.

What this ultimately means is we need to either:

1) Use a three stage strike system.
2) Use a five stage strike system with another starter choice. i.e. Delfino, Duck Hunt.
3) Use FLSS; all legal stages are open for striking during the 1st game.

From here, we can evaluate whether or not Lylat in of itself deserves to be legal as a counter pick.
 

Teshie U

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The new issues with lylat definitely add insult to injury for a stage that was scrutinized pretty hard in Brawl.

I really wish Wii U had gotten YI:Brawl as well. That and Brinstar would have been nice to have on Wii U.
 

Linq

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Welp looks like the patch fixed everything, for both standard and Omega. Seems like a great stage now :awesome:
 

Linq

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Farore's Wind will still result in an SD if you use it on the engines, but I haven't seen a character's move get interrupted yet
 

DavemanCozy

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One thing to note about the tumble animation is that this happens more often when standing in the bumps near the wings, the slightly elevated sections near the side platforms.

I had a replay of this... shouldn't have updated my Wii U though. With the patch we just got and the changes to the stage, this is gonna have to get a second look.
 

cot(θ)

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I was labbing Lylat yesterday, and was able to get stage-bumped relatively consistently (not enough to make it really predictable, though) - it happens most often when the platform you're moving onto is moving upwards very quickly. Today though, I could not reproduce it at all, neither in training, nor in several matches.

I believe Lylat Cruise is fixed.
 
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aethermaster

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Lylat fixed; case closed! =)

Thank God too. That stage was obnoxious with its ledges
 
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JmacAttack

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This has to be the first time I've ever seen a stage get buffed for use in competitive play.

Now the only thing this stage has is the tilting, and while I still argue this isn't something you can learn, it can be a useful mechanic for a counterpick stage now that it doesn't also ruin recoveries.
 
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Thor

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Annoyed that I wasn't in here to argue for its use as starter. I like it as a starter.

Ledge changes remove people's johns though? Hopefully it's a starter [or if we're in FLSS, that's not a question to be asked].
 

Gawain

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This has to be the first time I've ever seen a stage get buffed for use in competitive play.

Now the only thing this stage has is the tilting, and while I still argue this isn't something you can learn, it can be a useful mechanic for a counterpick stage now that it doesn't also ruin recoveries.
I'm in the boat with this opinion. I don't think the ledge snaps were ever the primary problem with this stage to be honest. They required the player to use more precision in recovery and they gave certain characters a harder time than others, but the tilting will always be the main issue. I don't think this closes the discussion.
 

TheHypnotoad

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So we know that the ledge jank was fixed, but was the cancelling of attacks fixed too?

Because if so, there is literally no reason at all for it not to be a starter stage.
 

Raijinken

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I am now fine with Lylat. Though I only support it being starter in FLSS. Tilting doesn't strike me as "starter" levels of non-weird.
 

Pazx

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I'm in the boat with this opinion. I don't think the ledge snaps were ever the primary problem with this stage to be honest. They required the player to use more precision in recovery and they gave certain characters a harder time than others, but the tilting will always be the main issue. I don't think this closes the discussion.
The tilting is not even close to being an issue, the only thing potentially keeping this stage from being legal as either a starter or a CP (which I admit is related to the tilting) is the janky properties of the engines that suddenly cause characters to go airborne and cancel moves. This is allegedly fixed in the newest version, meaning Lylat is a fantastic stage.

I fail to see how the stage tilting is an issue rather than a feature of the stage.
 

Gawain

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The tilting is not even close to being an issue, the only thing potentially keeping this stage from being legal as either a starter or a CP (which I admit is related to the tilting) is the janky properties of the engines that suddenly cause characters to go airborne and cancel moves. This is allegedly fixed in the newest version, meaning Lylat is a fantastic stage.

I fail to see how the stage tilting is an issue rather than a feature of the stage.
I was referring to the sudden airborne-ness when I said tilting. I should have been more clear. I didn't know that that was fixed though? I thought it was just the edge snapping that was changed. If so then I have no real further complains about the stage.
 

Pazx

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I was referring to the sudden airborne-ness when I said tilting. I should have been more clear. I didn't know that that was fixed though? I thought it was just the edge snapping that was changed. If so then I have no real further complains about the stage.
My bad, sorry to be so standoffish. Anyway, several people have tried to replicate the ledge cancelling glitch with no success post-patch, so this stage is looking good.
 

Raethien

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I really hate it
Like really really really hate it.
But its good for Falcon and Palutena.
But I hate it.
 
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