We need to talk about Lylat Cruise.

[Amazing Ampharos]

I just wanna mention if Lylat forces people to play an aerial game like BPC stated earlier.
And then AA bringing up LM bad on Duck Hunt but good on Lylat.... It's actually the opposite cause Lylat will **** Mac over too since again, the stage conditions you to an aerial game and lol LM aerials, lol LM in the air.

Lylat's platforms are low enough that Mac can jump up to them reasonably (and I think he can usmash the side ones, not entirely sure). On Duck Hunt the tree is so incredibly high that Little Mac can't get up there with a double jump. He either has to grab the ledge and use a ledge jump (which makes his approach more telegraphed and hence riskier), use an up special (not viable), or kill ducks and use the dog platform (both silly and slow).

Little Mac is a bad character on every stage since, yes, he can't viably jump at you, and I would always be looking to exploit that weakness when fighting against one. Low platforms just make him thrash around a little though; high platforms like on Duck Hunt actually enable some very silly clock running against Mac. My goal when fighting Mac on a stage with a high platform isn't really to hit him at all. If he does something unsafe I will take all the advantages he's willing to give me, but what I'm really looking to do once I establish a lead is just to run the clock and win by time over. That's not realistic on Lylat while it is on Duck Hunt. Mac's main motivation is to avoid being lamed out by the stage selection; finding something actually good or bad for him otherwise is a secondary concern.

I can't speak for BPC's views on the gameplay dynamics of Lylat, but I don't view it as a particularly aerial stage. The very low platforms are more useful for defense and trapping people than aerial movement, and while some characters may find the tilting obstructive to their ground game and want to jump, that can really work both ways and there are clever ways to take advantage of the tilting on all sides. I actually think it's pretty neutral on almost every front but it adds a lot of little nuance, and in that way, it usually rewards the more careful and contemplative player who is able to form a better strategy to take advantage of the situation. You could say it's stressful I suppose, but I certainly don't feel more stress on Lylat than I do on other stages since I know that I'm well enough practiced with my character's recovery that I'm not more likely to mess up here than elsewhere. Also, real talk, no one has ever lost a game on this stage they didn't deserve to lose because of being caught under the lip, and it is kinda a bad look on us as a competitive community to talk about that being related to ban criteria since that problem is completely solved by a simple hour in training mode...

 

[Linq]

It's not that it's random, because it isn't. It's that the underside of Lylat is so easy to get stuck under that it makes offstage play very risky, as you can very easily die just trying to get back to the stage after an edgeguard attempt.

Earlier watching Aftershock, a Falco went down to edge guard a Falcon. The falcon made it back, but the Falco SD'd because the up-special wasn't angled properly, and as I recall from that angle it would have been extremely difficult (if possible at all) to angle properly, as the control stick would have to be angled just outside the dead zone. An imperceptible amount too far and it would be an SD, as happened to him, while going straight up would also be an SD. It could be argued that the Falco player shouldn't have put himself in that situation to begin with, but removing a characters options like that seems wrong to me. I'm not sure how it's different than a stage with vertical walls preventing sharking near the ledge, but it feels different nonetheless. Perhaps someone can expand on this...

 

[Ulevo]

When I made mention of Lylat promoting aerial play, I only meant that it helps characters that prefer or are able to approach through say short hops and good aerial mobility like Jiggs, since they run less of a risk of being interrupted during an action from the stage tilts. Also, these characters typically have the luxury of having good recoveries, making them ideal candidates for using the stage against opponents who otherwise have trouble coming back when the stage tilts away from them.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Lylat's platforms are low enough that Mac can jump up to them reasonably (and I think he can usmash the side ones, not entirely sure). On Duck Hunt the tree is so incredibly high that Little Mac can't get up there with a double jump. He either has to grab the ledge and use a ledge jump (which makes his approach more telegraphed and hence riskier), use an up special (not viable), or kill ducks and use the dog platform (both silly and slow).

Little mac can reasonably jump to the top platform of BF too.
Duck Hunt provides a way to get to the top of the tree in the form of the dog appearing. If the person has stood on top of the tree for even more than 10 seconds, the dog has likely appeared once already to give you a chance to go up there.

Even then, one of mac's many kill moves is UpB, and guess what, they're pretty damn close to the top blast zone. So even if they jump away, they're now on the ground, Little mac double jump + upB puts him underneath the highest part of the tree so he won't get punished most likely.

Little Mac is a bad character on every stage since, yes, he can't viably jump at you, and I would always be looking to exploit that weakness when fighting against one. Low platforms just make him thrash around a little though; high platforms like on Duck Hunt actually enable some very silly clock running against Mac. Mac's main motivation is to avoid being lamed out by the stage selection; finding something actually good or bad for him otherwise is a secondary concern.

In theory almost any character with decent jumps or air speed can run circles around mac except if it's FD.
If Little Mac doesn't wanna play on Duck hunt, then simply ban it. Depending on your region, there's still other more silly stages that screws mac just as hard. I can imagine (in my scene) kongo or Skyloft wouldn't be too favorable for him once he bans Duck Hunt game 2. Game 1 he shouldn't fear any of the other starters, so easy to get rid of DH right off the bat.

Also, real talk, no one has ever lost a game on this stage they didn't deserve to lose because of being caught under the lip, and it is kinda a bad look on us as a competitive community to talk about that being related to ban criteria since that problem is completely solved by a simple hour in training mode...

I played against someone that CP'd me to Lylat and killed themselves twice in under a minute ovo
Unless the player is an amiibo and their sweetspot for getting the ledge grew or something, it's still possible for people to miss the ledge, especially if you're fox/falco side-b'ing. Or just pressure while playing gets to you and you mess up. Human nature to **** up rather hard so I wouldn't be surprised if Lylat took stocks off people.

Though I still stand by that I just would move Lylat to CP, not ban it entirely. It's not bad like Gamer or something lol.

 

[HeroMystic]

All this talk about Mac and DH while Smashville is by far Mac's worst stage.

 

[JmacAttack]

When I made mention of Lylat promoting aerial play, I only meant that it helps characters that prefer or are able to approach through say short hops and good aerial mobility like Jiggs, since they run less of a risk of being interrupted during an action from the stage tilts. Also, these characters typically have the luxury of having good recoveries, making them ideal candidates for using the stage against opponents who otherwise have trouble coming back when the stage tilts away from them.

Yeah, that's not promoting aerial play, that's "Lylat nerfs some characters' air approaches less than others."

 

[Jaxas]

Are you saying you know exactly when it will happen, and can use it in a match?

Tutorial vid plz?

Edit: Just got a bad case of the hiccups. It reminds me of getting interrupted by Lylat's tilting.

Do I know? No, but I have an idea.
But I do know that it's not random, and it's therefore possible to learn. We also know the triggers for it.

Seriously though, I really hope that the tilt-bug is fixed in the next patch (Mewtwo please...), simply because it makes no sense for it to be in...

 

[Linq]

Do I know? No, but I have an idea.
But I do know that it's not random, and it's therefore possible to learn.

While on some level I am inclined to agree, simply because something is not actually random does not mean it is feasible to learn. Assuming the causes are even perceptible to the average human, memorizing which of the 50(+) characters' 20-30 moves each are interrupted at a particular time or tilt on the stage is more than an hour in training mode--that's on the magnitude of memorizing frame data for all the characters' attacks, except for use only on a single one of the 13 generally viable stages. While this certainly adds depth to the game, I don't feel like it's the good kind.
On the other hand, if you can point me to a match where a player legitimately used prior knowledge of the tilting glitchiness to their advantage, I think that'd be extremely cool.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Little mac can reasonably jump to the top platform of BF too.
Duck Hunt provides a way to get to the top of the tree in the form of the dog appearing. If the person has stood on top of the tree for even more than 10 seconds, the dog has likely appeared once already to give you a chance to go up there.

Even then, one of mac's many kill moves is UpB, and guess what, they're pretty damn close to the top blast zone. So even if they jump away, they're now on the ground, Little mac double jump + upB puts him underneath the highest part of the tree so he won't get punished most likely.


In theory almost any character with decent jumps or air speed can run circles around mac except if it's FD.
If Little Mac doesn't wanna play on Duck hunt, then simply ban it. Depending on your region, there's still other more silly stages that screws mac just as hard. I can imagine (in my scene) kongo or Skyloft wouldn't be too favorable for him once he bans Duck Hunt game 2. Game 1 he shouldn't fear any of the other starters, so easy to get rid of DH right off the bat.


I played against someone that CP'd me to Lylat and killed themselves twice in under a minute ovo
Unless the player is an amiibo and their sweetspot for getting the ledge grew or something, it's still possible for people to miss the ledge, especially if you're fox/falco side-b'ing. Or just pressure while playing gets to you and you mess up. Human nature to **** up rather hard so I wouldn't be surprised if Lylat took stocks off people.

Though I still stand by that I just would move Lylat to CP, not ban it entirely. It's not bad like Gamer or something lol.

Skyloft is actually a lot better for Little Mac than Duck Hunt and is not a bad Little Mac stage in general. It may have the word "sky" in the name, but it actually gives grounded characters a lot of opportunities. Kongo for sure is absolutely awful for him, likely his single worst stage that is plausibly legal.

Yeah I do just use aerial movement to run circles around Mac as much as possible. Keeping it up on Battlefield, Smashville, Duck Hunt, Kongo, or Windy Hill Zone (it's legal in my region...) is easy. Keeping it up on FD, Town & City, Lylat, or the transforming stages is generally hard. It's highly relevant to the character whether the final result of striking will result in a stage from the first list or the second list. If you have a five starter list that is specifically FD, SV, T&C, BF, and Duck Hunt, you'll always get a stage that is really friendly to running away from Mac if the other player just knows to strike FD and T&C. If any of the three of Duck Hunt, FD, or SV is replaced by Lylat or any transforming stage, this doesn't happen.

I actually do agree with the general proposition that Duck Hunt is a great competitive stage. I'm fond of it for a lot of reasons and am 100% in support of its legality. My ideal rules have full list stage striking with Duck Hunt as one of the legal stages. I just think, if we insist upon having an arbitrarily limited number of starters (which I don't endorse), we have to be careful of the particular make-up of that arbitrary pool and that the specific list FD, SV, T&C, BF, and Duck Hunt is a poorly balanced starter list (Mac is an example of a character who *really* hates it, but in general, I don't think it is a healthy list just for basic gameplay balance). If we insist upon specifically five starters and figure the first four listed there are "automatically" included, I actually think Delfino is the best #5 and would even say Skyloft (which shouldn't be banned) is better than Lylat... but Lylat is still a better choice than Duck Hunt for this purpose if for whatever reason we can't accept a transforming stage being on the list.

As per Lylat SDs, I've definitely seen it; I've had opponents throw away games like this several times. I haven't done it myself since the month smash 4 came out though, and back then, I was still getting a feel for Rosalina's recovery (it wasn't exactly easy for me to learn; that thing is awkward before you've used it a few thousand times). However, back in Brawl, I did recognize early on that this was something I was likely to mess up on. I spent several hours in training mode just recovering on Lylat from every angle I could possibly imagine. If I ever missed the ledge, I would repeat that angle 20 times until I didn't mess it up even once. I was determined that, for whatever reason I was going to lose in a tournament, failing to grab Lylat's ledge was not going to be that reason. I lost in tournament for a whole lot of reasons (I really wasn't all that good), but Lylat's ledges were never one of them and I played on the stage quite a bit. I think any player who has put in some training mode time on Lylat like that can have a similar experience, and honestly even my years old Brawl practice on Lylat with a different character in a different engine I feel transferred pretty well. I don't deny that ledge based SDs happen on Lylat since it's quite obvious that they do, but this is my basis for attributing them entirely to user error and not believing the stage to be at fault.

I actually don't think we're horribly far off in our general opinions; we just seem to look at a few things in a slightly different lens.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'd imagine it's hard for mac cause gigantic area for people to circle camp him and sometimes platforms pretty high up he can't reach unless he hops from one to the other, but then again there's a lot of long flat platforms or walk offs that're about as long and wide as Wii fit studio.
It's really hard to tell what kinda stage would be a better starter if lylat was moved to CP.
Delfino Skyloft or Duck Hunt.

Skyloft has terrain that does 12% and more walk offs than delfino, but they only last 8 or so seconds and the terrain is basically whatever looks like something we pass by, we can most likely get hit by (sometimes we don't though)
Delfino not many problems outside of the blastzones changing a bunch when it's moving to one of the areas.
Duck Hunt messes with peoples projectiles and it's not a fun stage for mac and ganon mostly.

Either keep lylat, choose one of those three, or even possibly go back to 7 starters like some regions did in Brawl.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's not that it's random, because it isn't. It's that the underside of Lylat is so easy to get stuck under that it makes offstage play very risky, as you can very easily die just trying to get back to the stage after an edgeguard attempt. The leaning and slopes on the ledges can also cause attacks like Wizard Dropkick, Flame Choke, and Raptor Boost to act very strangely. The person on the high ground actually has the disadvantage, because their sideways attacks will still move sideways, potentially over the person below them, and if those attacks cause them to fall helpless in midair, they will, and will have no chance to get back to the stage. This might not be random, but it can make people hesitate to press an advantage they might have otherwise had because there's no way to adequately prepare for it all the time.

Unless, and I feel the need to emphasize this, they know what they're doing.

This needs to stop. This "It's difficult to learn therefore I won't learn it". It's a terrible way to look at a competitive game. Oh, so you're going to hesitate to press your advantage because you don't know how a deterministic stage works? I don't feel bad for you at all.

In short, Lylat Cruise is a stage you counterpick because you're betting its shenanigans might cause your opponent to SD while trying to press an advantage they might have had anywhere else, not because your character does well on it. It's a stressful stage for everyone involved and dissuades aggression. Its only redeeming quality is the music.

Or you like that you can QAC anything on the stage. Or you like the platform layout.

 

[Luigi player]

I actually somewhat liked Lylat as a stage in Brawl, and I would like it even more this time, IF it wasn't for the 'you're suddenly airborne' factor.

Lylat would be perfectly fine otherwise. I guess I'm hoping for a patch that fixes this, although the chances of that happening are probably pretty small...

This always happens to me on Lylat and more often than not more than once. And it pretty much always has negative effects.
I kinda don't want to see the stage fully banned since you could try to play aerially I guess? And make up for the ground being unstable... but dunno, it's really stupid either way. I wouldn't be totally against banning it alltogether. :/

 

[Sinister Slush]

QAC being quick attack cancel?
I doubt anyone clicked my link last page, but I actually mention in the linked post that Pikachu can randomly go through the engines with QA. Dunno why or how.

 

[S_B]

Are you saying you know exactly when it will happen, and can use it in a match?

Tutorial vid plz?

Edit: Just got a bad case of the hiccups. It reminds me of getting interrupted by Lylat's tilting.

A thousand times, this.

It's hypothetically possible to wisely use any stage hazard against your enemy, and the irony in this discussion is that the VAST majority of stage hazards have ample warning for when they're about to trigger whereas no one even has video evidence of how to know the exact moment when Lylat is about to screw up one of your attacks.

That, plus its stupidly unreliable ledges (I swear there's a point during the tilting where the ledge doesn't even count as a ledge as I've fallen helplessly past it numerous times...) and I'm surprised it's ever been legal...

 

[Ulevo]

A thousand times, this.

It's hypothetically possible to wisely use any stage hazard against your enemy, and the irony in this discussion is that the VAST majority of stage hazards have ample warning for when they're about to trigger whereas no one even has video evidence of how to know the exact moment when Lylat is about to screw up one of your attacks.

That, plus its stupidly unreliable ledges (I swear there's a point during the tilting where the ledge doesn't even count as a ledge as I've fallen helplessly past it numerous times...) and I'm surprised it's ever been legal...

Basically this.

@ Budget Player Cadet_ , if you're so sure of yourself, I challenge you to provide a video tutorial or detailed guide demonstrating how players can replicate this mechanic without fail in game.

The problem with this mechanic is it's exactly like Brawl tripping. We know what causes Brawl tripping. The instance in which your character dashes, you have a 1% chance to trip. Just because we know there are odds to trip does not mean we know when we'll trip, and that's the problem. It's not reasonable to tell players "just don't dash" any more than it is to tell players "don't use attacks or actions on the ground that move you." We know attacks or actions associated with movement (read: that's a lot) can be interrupted during stage tilts (read: it tilts a lot) can trigger this, but we don't know when we'll actually be interrupted.

Researchers demonstrated that this can be replicated with certain moves on characters like Bowser. If you can't demonstrate this is easily predictable on most or all instances in which it can happen, I fail to see the validity in your arguments.

 

[Balgorxz]

Lylat is a pretty bad competitive stage considering we have like 4 stages that are banned that are much better (skyloft,wuhu,ps)

 

[Skarfelt]

I feel a distinction has to be made between learning to exploit a stage and learning to play on it to begin with. Randall in Yoshi's Story Melee seems random but the player can learn the timers to use Randall to their advantage - this knowledge is not required to play on the stage. A player can adapt to Randall as he turns up.

The difference here is that Lylat Cruise demands the player learns its patterns, how to avoid things and how to sweetspot its awkward ledges - these things on their own do not ban a stage. Subjectively, they make the stage frustrating to play on - and I would agree - but we don't ban stages based on that. The problem comes with randomness that a player shouldn't be expected to have to deal with or learn. It does not add depth to a game to cancel attacks mid-animation and punish you for playing the game. I mean, this is a game where we're ideally meant to hit each other and the stage can just completely stop that at random. It doesn't have a transformation that discourages fighting like the occasional one in Skyloft or Stadium 1, it doesn't have a hazard that discourages playing on a certain area of the stage like Halberd's cannon, it just decides at random that you're going to stop playing the game and potentially lose the game because of it.

 

[JmacAttack]

Unless, and I feel the need to emphasize this, they know what they're doing.

This needs to stop. This "It's difficult to learn therefore I won't learn it". It's a terrible way to look at a competitive game. Oh, so you're going to hesitate to press your advantage because you don't know how a deterministic stage works? I don't feel bad for you at all.



Or you like that you can QAC anything on the stage. Or you like the platform layout.

There's nothing to learn on Lylat. The only thing you "learn" is how to endure its bull**** when someone takes you there.

Lylat is a pretty bad competitive stage considering we have like 4 stages that are banned that are much better (skyloft,wuhu,ps)

I took someone to Wuhu in Friendlies today, first time they'd ever played on it, and they were just like "why isn't this stage legal?" Both it and Skyloft are better stages than Lylat.

 

[S_B]

The other issue to point out here is that Lylat's tilting is extremely slow and gradual, meaning that it's generally difficult to discern at which point it's going to cause moves to fail or suddenly send a character airborne.

Compare that to every other stage hazard in the game: if they don't have a literal warning sign that pops up, they're obvious for other reasons, like the hazards on Halberd which you can see in the background LONG before you get hit by them.

If Lylat had a warning sign pop up and then the whole platform tilted 45° for 5 seconds or something, it'd be far more agreeable as then you'd know exactly when moves were going to fail instead of them failing throughout a long, slow pivot.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Wait, people really complaining about recovering with Lylat's tilting ?
I mean, the stage was out in Brawl and had nearly identical physics, so we have basically had 7 years to practice/figure recoveries on it.

And after so many years, the only conclusion I've had with Lylat is that it *changes* your way to recover. There are few recoveries that require players to be very precise, or that can't be worked around, you'd just need to adjust and use safer recoveries, and I mean safer as in, "it will grab even if it moves a bit". it might be a drag to think a bit differently, but beneficial in the long run.
This is coming from who have used FREAKING ZELDA and still managed around Lylat.


The main (only?) issue with Lylat atm is those wonky cancels it may present, and I have no conclusion towards them just yet.

Lylat is a pretty bad competitive stage considering we have like 4 stages that are banned that are much better (skyloft,wuhu,ps)

I can't believe how much I loved this one post.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Basically this.

@ Budget Player Cadet_ , if you're so sure of yourself, I challenge you to provide a video tutorial or detailed guide demonstrating how players can replicate this mechanic without fail in game.

I'm not. Like I said, I've gotten caught on this myself, losing out on a gimp opportunity in a clutch match. But just because I can't right now, doesn't mean no-one can. Hell, it doesn't even mean I can't, it just means I haven't spent a ton of time in the lab figuring it out.

The problem with this mechanic is it's exactly like Brawl tripping. We know what causes Brawl tripping. The instance in which your character dashes, you have a 1% chance to trip. Just because we know there are odds to trip does not mean we know when we'll trip, and that's the problem. It's not reasonable to tell players "just don't dash" any more than it is to tell players "don't use attacks or actions on the ground that move you." We know attacks or actions associated with movement (read: that's a lot) can be interrupted during stage tilts (read: it tilts a lot) can trigger this, but we don't know when we'll actually be interrupted.

You realize you're comparing a completely random event with a completely deterministic event, right? That's not a fair comparison.

 

[Cronoc]

Lylat is terrible. The implementation of the drifting interrupts moves, sometimes with severe effects. I SD'd entirely due to the stage the other night: gfycat.com/UnacceptableMarvelousIbis (sorry, don't have enough posts to make that clickable). Let me make this clear - Bowser's fortress normally cannot go over the edge of the stage or a platform - due to the shift in the stage, I was popped up and left too far out to get back to the ledge. Bowser is especially effected by momentum and has a slow turnaround time in the air, with my leftward momentum there was no way I could turn back in time. Why is this acceptable?

 

[Sinister Slush]

I can't believe how much I loved this one post.

Thankfully my region has lots of stages most regions wouldn't have like skyloft kongo and PS2, while Houston had walkoffs like coliseum wii fit studio and Wuhu legal (my city will have wuhu legal in May most likely too)
I love my state.

 

[S_B]

Wait, people really complaining about recovering with Lylat's tilting ?

My only issue with recoveries on it is that sometimes the ledges literally just don't work. Like I've fallen past the ledge from above while touching it and...nothing.

Hell, it doesn't even mean I can't, it just means I haven't spent a ton of time in the lab figuring it out.

No offense, but there are better players out there than any of us here who clearly haven't figured it out, either.

As I said, the real issue is that, in order to react to a stage "hazard", a player needs to be able to notice on screen cues in the middle of a match with an opponent. In the case of Halberd, the cues are easy and obvious, but Lylat does something very different in that it's always slowly tilting.

Can we realistically ask players to note the difference between when the stage is at 10° tilt and 20°? I don't believe the stage goes much further than that (maybe 30°), so the points at which a player needs to watch out for their moves failing will rely upon them noting the difference in the tilt by ~10°.

That seems like a bit much to ask of people when they're fighting against an opponent of near equal skill level, especially when we don't really know which angular offset causes moves to fail, and I'm also not certain that different parts of the stage don't trigger at different times depending on your distance from the axis...

 

[Ulevo]

You realize you're comparing a completely random event with a completely deterministic event, right? That's not a fair comparison.

Except I'm not. We can't determine when either of them will happen, only when it might happen. Why do you think I called you out on it? lol

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'd rather Castle Seige be a starter than Lylat.

 

[Earthboundy]

My Lylat experience is summed up as followed "PK THUNDERRRR. BRAWHHH" *stage tilt* "OUCHIES"
As for it's legality, I don't really care I ban it whenever I play.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I kind of knew about the canceling stuff since it was in Brawl as well, it also messes up peach's float a lot.

Still this stage is on a consistent tilt set-up right?

 

[Pyr]

Except I'm not. We can't determine when either of them will happen, only when it might happen. Why do you think I called you out on it? lol

Actually, it's been clearly defined that the stage tilts in accordance to whatever "phase" it's on, and the tilting is not random per phase at all. You are comparing a random event to a pre-determined one.

See: http://smashboards.com/threads/lylat-cruise-stage-research.385081/

 

[Ulevo]

Actually, it's been clearly defined that the stage tilts in accordance to whatever "phase" it's on, and the tilting is not random per phase at all. You are comparing a random event to a pre-determined one.

See: http://smashboards.com/threads/lylat-cruise-stage-research.385081/

You don't get it. It doesn't matter how the stage tilts so long as it does tilt. The tilting happens for the majority of the match, and it isn't reasonable to expect players to operate their moves around the actual tilts given the frequency. Therefore the only thing a player can do is just play the match and hope it doesn't happen, even though they know they're voluntarily using moves that could cause it.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The air disruption is pretty hard to predict based off timing, but it's pretty easy to predict based on spacing. It can only happen directly on the ledges or at two very distinct points where the ship "bends" near the engines. Often it actually is practical to decide to place your attack in a subtly different location to avoid the possibility of the tilt forcing you into the air. I don't really claim that mechanic is a good mechanic (it's not), but I think it's manageable enough to be acceptable.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You don't get it. It doesn't matter how the stage tilts so long as it does tilt. The tilting happens for the majority of the match, and it isn't reasonable to expect players to operate their moves around the actual tilts given the frequency. Therefore the only thing a player can do is just play the match and hope it doesn't happen, even though they know they're voluntarily using moves that could cause it.

Or they can learn it. This is how I see it - if it's not random, then the player has no excuse. Good players will learn it, or they will lose the right to ***** about it.

 

[New_Dumal]

Lylat is a nice stage.
Yeah, it have some minor problems and is not a good option for some characters BUT we do stage strike.
If we just "random one of" the 5 starters thing, then I would agree that Lylat could be a problem.
But cry about Lylat in a stage strike system makes no sense at all.

In Smash Bros., the stages are a factor.
And is almost impossible to a stage be "neutral" in a certain MU.
If you can't adapt to a stage like Lylat Cruise with your main or any secundary, train harder.
I'm a fan of EVO ruleset and the destruction of the CP concept.
But I think it limits the number of counterpick stages or add more time into stage choice, time we cannot afford.
If we decide for 5 starters, Lylat is the fifth stage we are looking for.
Some people just hate it, but I hate to play in FD in SSBU, and I usually just strike it.

 

[Ulevo]

Or they can learn it. This is how I see it - if it's not random, then the player has no excuse. Good players will learn it, or they will lose the right to ***** about it.

The action interruptions are random.

 

[S_B]

Or they can learn it. This is how I see it - if it's not random, then the player has no excuse. Good players will learn it, or they will lose the right to ***** about it.

I'm sorry, but until someone posts a video that consistently demonstrates how and where you can reliably expect moves to fail, we can't really even have this discussion.

And even then, is it reasonable to expect a player to notice the difference between a 10° tilt and a 20° tilt? I'd say no...

I mean, you could have a stage hazard that always happens exactly 46 seconds into every fight, that has no prior warning or on-screen indication that it's about to happen (not even a phase change where you can expect to see it), and you COULD argue that players should be able to anticipate its happening.

But should they HAVE to? I think the focus of a fight should be on your opponent, not counting the seconds in your head in anticipation of something popping up and killing you. And in many stages, the dynamic of an oscillating platform like in Smashville is already adding enough to the equation as players will need to factor it in to everything they do.

I just don't think Lylat's tilting classifies as anything but randomness because of the amount of attention you'd need to be paying to the stage itself to determine exactly when a move is going to fail on you...

And as I said, until we see a video where someone demonstrates that it's repeatable, there's no counterargument, here...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The action interruptions are random.

There's a difference between "not understood" and "random".

 

[Ulevo]

There's a difference between "not understood" and "random".

First of all, if you cannot distinguish between the two in a game, it doesn't matter. Secondly, unless you can provide me evidence to show how we can replicate this exactly in game with a myriad of actions, including rolls, jabs, tilts, smashes and the like during the exact angle of tilt so that we actually know when it will happen precisely, and thus know how to avoid it in a game, you have no argument.

Telling me we know when it tilts doesn't cut it. It tilts all game long, really frequently. You can't play around these circumstances and your opponent with the expectation Lylat will never randomly interrupt you.

 

[Funen1]

Telling me we know when it tilts doesn't cut it. It tilts all game long, really frequently. You can't play around these circumstances and your opponent with the expectation Lylat will never randomly interrupt you.

This is where I think the difference between your arguments and everyone else's lies. If you really think that there's nothing you can do to adjust to some discrete detail of a stage, then you honestly don't deserve to win on that stage anyway. The reality is, you can always find ways to play around isolated mechanics such as this. Be creative. The best players are expected to be able to adapt to anything and everything thrown at them. Whether or not the interruptions are random is irrelevant imo. If they are completely random, then don't put yourself in a position to get screwed over by them in the first place. The phrase "prevention is the best medicine" comes to mind - at it's core, it's the same as not falling for a particular trap from your opponent, except you don't have to worry about the stage adapting back to you. Even if the interruptions aren't completely random, then keep in mind what triggers it and make sure you don't get caught in one of those specific situations where the tilting can interrupt you. It may be a wrinkle in the gameplans of ground-based characters, but stages favoring one type of playstyle over another is not new, and I don't see these interruptions as crippling said characters to the point where we need to ban the stage in order to "save" the integrity of the competitive scene.

 

[S_B]

There's a difference between "not understood" and "random".

And the onus of proof for demonstrating that there is any difference between the two on Lylat falls upon you.

This is where I think the difference between your arguments and everyone else's lies. If you really think that there's nothing you can do to adjust to some discrete detail of a stage, then you honestly don't deserve to win on that stage anyway. The reality is, you can always find ways to play around isolated mechanics such as this. Be creative. The best players are expected to be able to adapt to anything and everything thrown at them. Whether or not the interruptions are random is irrelevant imo. If they are completely random, then don't put yourself in a position to get screwed over by them in the first place. The phrase "prevention is the best medicine" comes to mind - at it's core, it's the same as not falling for a particular trap from your opponent, except you don't have to worry about the stage adapting back to you. Even if the interruptions aren't completely random, then keep in mind what triggers it and make sure you don't get caught in one of those specific situations where the tilting can interrupt you. It may be a wrinkle in the gameplans of ground-based characters, but stages favoring one type of playstyle over another is not new, and I don't see these interruptions as crippling said characters to the point where we need to ban the stage in order to "save" the integrity of the competitive scene.

No offense, but by this logic, no stage should ever be banned, ever. And yet, we DEFINITELY ban stages...

 

[Ulevo]

This is where I think the difference between your arguments and everyone else's lies. If you really think that there's nothing you can do to adjust to some discrete detail of a stage, then you honestly don't deserve to win on that stage anyway. The reality is, you can always find ways to play around isolated mechanics such as this. Be creative. The best players are expected to be able to adapt to anything and everything thrown at them. Whether or not the interruptions are random is irrelevant imo. If they are completely random, then don't put yourself in a position to get screwed over by them in the first place. The phrase "prevention is the best medicine" comes to mind - at it's core, it's the same as not falling for a particular trap from your opponent, except you don't have to worry about the stage adapting back to you. Even if the interruptions aren't completely random, then keep in mind what triggers it and make sure you don't get caught in one of those specific situations where the tilting can interrupt you. It may be a wrinkle in the gameplans of ground-based characters, but stages favoring one type of playstyle over another is not new, and I don't see these interruptions as crippling said characters to the point where we need to ban the stage in order to "save" the integrity of the competitive scene.

Basically what this is telling me is "don't use any action that moves your character forward while grounded", and that to me is unacceptable because it takes the emphasis away from actually playing against the enemy. You should be concentrating on how to outplay your opponent, not playing a mini game. This issue has nothing to do with player skill. Using your logic we should be legalizing a lot more stages than what are currently allowed in tournament.