Wavedashing in Brawl? -- New info

[Hyper Luigi]

haha, it is a joke. The intention was this, there is momentum when you airdodge yes? Ok, so wouldn't it make sense that if you landed on your feet going in a somewhat horizontal velocity that you would skid? Now, how far you skid should be a character's traction, how much momentum is left from the airdodge, and how much you angle it to be horizontal and I do think that makes sense (it is exaggerated in this game, but nothing really makes sense in terms of our physics anyways. :x). They intended that you would not lose your momentum when you airdodge to the ground so you would slide and be in a landing animation. They probably didn't know that people would use it the way they do.

Do you see where I am coming from? It is not a glitch. It is an exploit of the physics engine or using a part of the game that the game designers did not think we would use in such a way.

That's the most reasonable explanation I've ever read on the matter. Even so, I'd prefer if the air-dodge became a roll when you hit the ground. It would be "cleaner" and wouldn't have to lose your momentum. On top of that it would be easier to accomplish if it was intentional and thus not hamper weaker players.

 

[Hyper Luigi]

What? Umm, ok.

You want to play in a tournament? I don't get it. If you can't wavedash, it is not that you aren't wavedashing that makes it so you can't compete. It is the fact you also do not use the other techs which are much more important. You read alot of Nsider and 4chan. Am I right?

Neither.

GameFaqs... and here is enough for me to be annoyed at wavedash worshippers. I'd consider many other tactics more worth while but they still shove wavedashing down my throat. You can't win in this game if you don't guard or dodge and I'm pretty sure everybody know that much by now.

 

[Hyper Luigi]

lol yeah .... suuuuuuure...

yes it IS natural... here let me break it down for you...

1. you can jump
2. you can air dodge
3. you can air dodge in any point in your jump
4. you can air dodge in any direction
5. every character has their own traction
6. when you air dodge into the ground, the sliding animation is what the programmers told the game to happen when a player air dodges into the ground... to prevent ACTUAL glitchy things from happening... the slide is bassed on each characters own traction physics....

so it seems to me that every part of a wavedash was put in naturally... its not some FREAK accident

Do you have proof the programmers told the game to make a sliding animation? Because if not then you've got nothing here.

I'm willing to believe you might be able to dig up something to defend that point though...

 

[element_of_fire]

hyper luigi... NOBODY worships it... this is what you don't understand... its people like YOU who get all bent out of shape about it... and when we try and show you, you get all defensive... its all because people like you have played their own way for so long, you simply can'd accept that people play the game differently... including the use of exploits like WD.... well maybe not you persnoally, but a LOT of people who have a problem with wavedash are that way.... just let go of it man... it doesn't hurt you if its in... it won't hurt anybody...

the people who dont' knwo about it can go on their marry little way...
the people who don't like it can simply not use it, because they prolly have friends to play with who don't like it, and then they too can go on their marry little way....
and we can have what we want too!!!

Edit.... yes i have proof... when you airdodge into the ground, the SAME thing happens every time... nothing random or glitchy happens like air dodging into the ground was some unforseen variable that the game wouldn't know how to compensate for (thus something random or glitchy happening)... thats proof

 

[Lorcl678]

I actually don't care if wavedashing is removed/stays in Brawl. If you play smart in Melee, you should still be able to play smart in Brawl. That is what separates a good player from a bad player.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

LOL, post me a link where the creators acknowledge that you can airdodge than use the hookshot. Glitch!!1!!111!!!1!!!

Edit: Hyper Luigi, no. I play this game maybe twice a week and I can wavedash. Maybe you just don't practice it or you do not have the hand eye coordination.

There is no new info. This seems like a rumor anyways. How could they l cancel with wii motes? lol

This is different.

If they acknowledged it, there must be a source. We know that Tether Recoveries and Airdogding were supposed to be in Melee. Wavedashing is another matter however.

But if the creators acknowledged it, then there must be a source.

 

[Sai Winner of Games]

I'd have to say there's nothing natural about how that looks though. Especially when you wave backward while facing forward. Why would they program that?

Sliding without lifting your feet is proper form when attacking in Kendo. It takes more time to lift your foot up, move it forward, and then place it down than shifting your weight and sliding forward. It can also be done backward. This has been the basis of Kendo foot work for over 400 years. Kendo originated in Japan, and so did Smash, so a better question would be "Why would they not program that?".

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWzdIpayeFk

It doesn't look exactly like wave dashing, but the concept of saving time without extra movement is similar.

 

[NES n00b]

Do you have proof the programmers told the game to make a sliding animation? Because if not then you've got nothing here.

I'm willing to believe you might be able to dig up something to defend that point though...

AR shows "landfall special" whenever you land/waveland or something like that. It is the landing animation. The sliding thing is from the momentum like I said which has to be programmed in along with landing animation.

Your suggestion earlier is pretty good I got to admit. It would be more like "tri jumping" where you air dodge past your opponent towards the ground (no one has done this in ages). Anyways, wavedashing is infinitely more useful so I want that. Luigi is too cool with wavedashing, too.

Edit: They didn't acknowledge it actually. Did you see instructions or anywhere that it says you can airdodge then use the hookshot? I never did. There was a source. The NP article had a section about wavedashing. I can't remember if that is where the "wavedashing was discovered before release" came from. Heh, I don't care to look.

 

[Johnknight1]

It's not a glitch. It's a combination of airdodging and variable character traction physics. It's existance was acknowledged by the game designers. Bite back?

It is my opinion that the IGN people who tested it probably had a hard time with the different forms of control or weren't that good at wavedashing in the first place=p

hopefully there's a way to use gamecube controllers for a proper test.

if they eliminated wavedashing they would have needed to do something drastic with the physics, making everyone have unbelievable traction, or no diagonal air didge, which is ********. I don't see how it can't be in.

Boooo. Take this arguement outside. I will most likely be going to this topic to hear about Wavedashing experiences from SWF members, and you people mucking it up is distracting.


We've had this debate thousands of times already. Wavedashers (and Snakers ) always win. Stop trying to debate this, nooblets. Just throw a hissy fit and say you dont like wavedashing just because you dont like it. It's not broken, it's not cheap, its only flaw is the player himself.

Oh Zek, please go link a place where the devs said they put Mario's fire ball attack intentionally. Cant? Because there's no magical Smash-dev Wikipedia where you can find these things.

This is a debate wavedashers have won every single time. :/

According to many people's definition of a "glitch", almost everything we do counts as one since "the creators never intended it". I could care less what is and isn't a glitch. It is more important to filter out anything that is broken.

Salaad, wavedashing is very important in particular circumstances. Do none of you people use wavedash-2-edge-hog? No wonder it seems "worthless" to you.

Play as Luigi in Mario 2 or Mario and the Lost Levels. lol He slides all over the place.

At Dac, you should have known this would happen. Plus, how would we know any more info than this? This seems like a rumor and nothing more.

Edit: People would be like haha I told you so and others would be like this is n00bie ****. Then, the people who can't wavedash will still lose and they will still complain. Sunrise sunset.

^ WIN! All those posts are win. ALl of you win this years Noble Peace Prize. Congratulations, and may the wavedash be with you!


And since Wavelanding (or something EXTREMELY SIMILAR TO IT) was shown in the Nintendo World 2006 Trailer (MEta Knight used it...TWICE!), wavelanding is confirmed. Wavedashing could be out by let's say no air dodging below a certain distance rule, but that'd be dumb. Wavedashing is alll but confirmed. And glitch or not, it is basically one of those things that is the heart of tournament play.

In a lot of ways, wavedashing is to Melee wat the force is to a jedi (lol ). Keeping your distance, skipping running frames, wave grabbing, wavelanding, wave sheilding, and all the wavetechs get all the little things right. So if you don't like wavedashing DON'T USE IT! It's not like it's the end of the world if it's in Brawl, so suck it up. It's a effect of the airdodging and air combat pysics engine. It is a gravitational effect, caused by Newton's Laws of Gravity. Sir Issac Newton would be proud, would play SSB avidly, and would main Luigi in Melee for the most "gravitational effect". Woaw, that is the last time I talk science!

"The reason you hate wavedashing isn't because you think it's a glitch. The reason you hate wavedashing is because you suck at smash, wavedashing, and life!"

If wavedashing sucks so much, how come only ONE BIG NAME PRO doesn't wavedash (that I know of...there could be one or two more). Anti-Wavedasher FAIL!

 

[kilroy]

the people who dont' knwo about it can go on their marry little way...
the people who don't like it can simply not use it, because they prolly have friends to play with who don't like it, and then they too can go on their marry little way....
and we can have what we want too!!!

no, everyone can't have what they want. what you said in #2 is sort of a problem, along the lines of what Buzz said earlier.

the idea that if you don't like WD, don't go to tourneys. well, that idea is kinda lame, because believe it or not there are people who love smash, want to go to tourneys, but hate the WD.

now sure, they can suck it up and play, like Aniki. they're missing a move in their arsenal, but that's their choice.

but i think hyper is also right about the prevailing atitude that abounds, that if you're anti-WD you're automatically a scrub. and that's weak sauce no matter how you slice it.

people can do what they want and feel what they want, but let's try to not condemn or banish others, ok? WDers or anti-WDers.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Here's the thing--

The inclusion of wavedashing does not affect casual players AT ALL. There are plenty of people who have played SSBM casually for years and still do not know how to wavedash. This is in fact the vast majority of Smashers.

The removal of wavedashing does not affect casual players AT ALL. This is only a relevant discussion for competitive players, i.e., tournament-goers. It seems to me a lot of casual players have an inferiority complex because they can't do well competitively, and they blame their losses on other players using exploits. I had the privilege of being called a "wavedashing *******" by someone I 4-stocked at a recent tournament. Clearly the reason my opponent lost was not because he didn't know how to SH, L-cancel, dash-dance, CCC, etc.--it was because I was wavedashing. Wavedashing is just a strawman scrubs attack because it is the most visible of the advanced techs, which collectively comprise what the scrubs see as insurmountable obstacles limiting their potential.

There's no reason to remove advanced techniques that aren't excessively broken. Casual players don't use them and don't go to tournaments. Advanced techniques only change the tournament metagame.

So honestly, why do you care?

And dodging is useful but is not that necessary for many characters (like CF--don't dodge, ever). I hardly ever do it except by accident.

 

[Hyper Luigi]

hyper luigi... NOBODY worships it... this is what you don't understand... its people like YOU who get all bent out of shape about it... and when we try and show you, you get all defensive... its all because people like you have played their own way for so long, you simply can'd accept that people play the game differently... including the use of exploits like WD.... well maybe not you persnoally, but a LOT of people who have a problem with wavedash are that way.... just let go of it man... it doesn't hurt you if its in... it won't hurt anybody...

the people who dont' knwo about it can go on their marry little way...
the people who don't like it can simply not use it, because they prolly have friends to play with who don't like it, and then they too can go on their marry little way....
and we can have what we want too!!!

Edit.... yes i have proof... when you airdodge into the ground, the SAME thing happens every time... nothing random or glitchy happens like air dodging into the ground was some unforseen variable that the game wouldn't know how to compensate for (thus something random or glitchy happening)... thats proof

There's people in this very thread giving me a hard time about wavedashing...

Are not all exploits glitches? It's not a game breaking glitch but I see every reason to qualify it as a glitch. Afterall the game breaking glitches I'm aware of never change what occurs then they happen such as the Mewtwo stick glitch, the Ice Climber freeze glitch and snaking in Mario Kart (though it's obvious the programers knew about that one). So I wouldn't consider that the same animation occurs is a glitch. What is the glitch is what happens when that animation occurs at just the right moment. That's how I see it anyway you can dissagree with me but I'm not going to change my opinion on that matter.

I see it as a usuable tactic and certainly a useful one but still an exploitation of something that wasn't suppose to happen when that animation occurs.

 

[element_of_fire]

no, everyone can't have what they want. what you said in #2 is sort of a problem, along the lines of what Buzz said earlier.

the idea that if you don't like WD, don't go to tourneys. well, that idea is kinda lame, because believe it or not there are people who love smash, want to go to tourneys, but hate the WD.

now sure, they can suck it up and play, like Aniki. they're missing a move in their arsenal, but that's their choice.

but i think hyper is also right about the prevailing atitude that abounds, that if you're anti-WD you're automatically a scrub. and that's weak sauce no matter how you slice it.

people can do what they want and feel what they want, but let's try to not condemn or banish others, ok? WDers or anti-WDers.

the people who don't like wd can still go to tourneys yes... or even better.. host their own tourney and ban it if they hate it so much.... and yes, they ARE scrubs by the definition of the word... and that isn't an INSULT... the term scrub is a name for a mindset... thats all... its ok if they don't like it... to each their own... but we're not forcing them to do it... its a bit of a slipery slope yes... but i think what i said still stands

 

[element_of_fire]

There's people in this very thread giving me a hard time about wavedashing...

Are not all exploits glitches? It's not a game breaking glitch but I see every reason to qualify it as a glitch. Afterall the game breaking glitches I'm aware of never change what occurs then they happen such as the Mewtwo stick glitch, the Ice Climber freeze glitch and snaking in Mario Kart (though it's obvious the programers knew about that one). So I wouldn't consider that the same animation occurs is a glitch. What is the glitch is what happens when that animation occurs at just the right moment. That's how I see it anyway you can dissagree with me but I'm not going to change my opinion on that matter.

I see it as a usuable tactic and certainly a useful one but still an exploitation of something that wasn't suppose to happen when that animation occurs.

i know there are people givin' you a hard time and i hate that people like that are representing the pro WD side... just like how you hate how freaknoobs lol represent your side with nothing but overblown emotions and none of the logical arguments you've been tryin' to provide... its all good bro no worries

and no exploits are not glitches... glitches are random and void of what the game was programmed to do, exploits are simply combinations of the games preprogrammed physics to perform thing not forseen by the devs... every part of the wd is a natural part of the physica engine, the devs might simply not have forseen people airdodging right away into the ground to creat one fluid motion... or maybe they did... but no part of the WD is a glitch.... glitches are results of variables the game isn't programmed to compute (and usually gamebreaking)

edit- double post ftw

 

[spikehappy07]

Let's see...how many WDing threads have I read already?

About 21 of them, and that's only halfo.0

 

[kilroy]

the people who don't like wd can still go to tourneys yes... or even better.. host their own tourney and ban it if they hate it so much.... and yes, they ARE scrubs by the definition of the word... and that isn't an INSULT... the term scrub is a name for a mindset... thats all... its ok if they don't like it... to each their own... but we're not forcing them to do it... its a bit of a slipery slope yes... but i think what i said still stands

no, fire. not "even better." try and feel this, ok? non-WDers don't like being talked to or treated like ******** lepers who should be forced to host their own, seperate, "scrubby" tournies. does any of that really sound ok to you? would you enjoy that?

all you're doing is out-grouping non-WDers and calling them a derogatory name. you can *try* to write it off as a simple, non-judgmental classification, but i think you know it's not, and it's certainly not used that way in the prevailing community.

i'm not interested in arguing about WDing, but i will say something about the attitudes people take over this divisive issue.

 

[NES n00b]

Let's see...how many WDing threads have I read already?

About 21 of them, and that's only halfo.0

We need moar wavedashing topics.

Edit: Don't call us Wave dashers then. lol Just kidding.

Anyways, go to tournies with wavedashers, no one is stopping you. If you do not like the move, oh well, them is the brakes. It is not scrubby to not like the move. It is scrubby to think it is cheap or it wasn't the way it was meant to be played in some way so we shouldn't do it.

 

[Hyper Luigi]

Well I like most advid Smashers hate losing and I don't blame losses on wavedashing as I actually don't know many people personally that use it (just a few) but I want to improve my game and seemingly can't. That frustrates me and the snobbing attitude of people on message boards (not all, but plenty) make me want to punch them in the face in real life.

 

[element_of_fire]

kilroy, scrub IS nothing more than a name for a players mindset... a mindset where a player has a block that they don't want to hurdle to improve, and try to justify it.... thus limiting thier chance to improve as a player... now these tourneys are HIGHLY competitive. to the point where players will do anything (including exploits) to win... now if some non-WD player goes to a tourney and is so bent out of shape over a technique that isn't even that special, why should WE acomadate THEM?? and more inportantly, HOW?? yes i think if they have such a problem with it they SHOULD not go to our tournies... we're nto going to stop playing to win just to satisfy them .... THEY are the ones with the problem, not us... yes some tourney players use scrube as an offensive term, but it really isn't... and i only use it on people who have OBVIOUS mental boundries with the game...

no doubt hyper luigi, i know how you feel... but hey, its only the internet... don't let the WDers attitude (well, thos that actuall have the attitude) get to you.. play how you want bro, doesn't bother me, heck, i'll even match you in brawl if you want

 

[Shai Hulud]

Well I like most advid Smashers hate losing and I don't blame losses on wavedashing as I actually don't know many people personally that use it (just a few) but I want to improve my game and seemingly can't. That frustrates me and the snobbing attitude of people on message boards (not all, but plenty) make me want to punch them in the face in real life.

If you can't master wavedashing or some of the other techs don't fret too much. There are technically intensive characters and technically unintensive characters. If you can't wavedash you probably don't want to play Fox. Or Luigi.

If you have a good SHFFL game try CF. He doesn't need to wavedash at all. Or if your tech skill is really bad just play Peach.

 

[Hyper Luigi]

kilroy, scrub IS nothing more than a name for a players mindset... a mindset where a player has a block that they don't want to hurdle to improve, and try to justify it.... thus limiting thier chance to improve as a player... now these tourneys are HIGHLY competitive. to the point where players will do anything (including exploits) to win... now if some non-WD player goes to a tourney and is so bent out of shape over a technique that isn't even that special, why should WE acomadate THEM?? and more inportantly, HOW?? yes i think if they have such a problem with it they SHOULD not go to our tournies... we're nto going to stop playing to win just to satisfy them .... THEY are the ones with the problem, not us... yes some tourney players use scrube as an offensive term, but it really isn't... and i only use it on people who have OBVIOUS mental boundries with the game...

no doubt hyper luigi, i know how you feel... but hey, its only the internet... don't let the WDers attitude get to you.. play how you want bro, doesn't bother me, heck, i'll even match you in brawl if you want

Some day we shall duel. Some day.

I don't think so many people have a "block" per say but get frustrated (as I have) when they can't do something other people consider simple. So I decide not to bother with it and yet I know if I exploited that and some other things that I'd have a stronger game to compete with. You might say I'm jealous because that's probably what that sounds like... and I am darn it. I try and try and for whatever reason it just doesn't click. In the mean time I play with some friends and I know their moves and I know exaclty when wavedashing and other exploits would give me an advantage in a situation (as I do play as Luigi among other characters that apperently at least have a "good" wavedash).

And I know you're trying to be sincere but when someone says "play however you want" or "however you can" I can't help but feel like they're belittling me because I play differently than they do.

 

[kilroy]

kilroy, scrub IS nothing more than a name for a players mindset... a mindset where a player has a block that they don't want to hurdle to improve, and try to justify it.... thus limiting thier chance to improve as a player... now these tourneys are HIGHLY competitive. to the point where players will do anything (including exploits) to win... now if some non-WD player goes to a tourney and is so bent out of shape over a technique that isn't even that special, why should WE acomadate THEM?? and more inportantly, HOW?? yes i think if they have such a problem with it they SHOULD not go to our tournies... we're nto going to stop playing to win just to satisfy them .... THEY are the ones with the problem, not us... yes some tourney players use scrube as an offensive term, but it really isn't... and i only use it on people who have OBVIOUS mental boundries with the game...

i'm not sure how you got "accomodation" in here.

as a non-WD all i ask for is acceptance. to not be made fun of or called names, or have people assume things about my playstyle/abilities/desire to win. apparently that's a lot to ask.

and of course there are jerks on the opposite side, but they have no right to persecute you and try to make you stop WDing.

as for "Scrub" as a simple classification, i'd ask you to take the time in the near future and keep and eye out. watch how it's used, and watch when you're using it. watch how you treat these people you've classified as scrubs. then decide if you still think it's ok.

peace.

 

[Hyper Luigi]

If you can't master wavedashing or some of the other techs don't fret too much. There are technically intensive characters and technically unintensive characters. If you can't wavedash you probably don't want to play Fox. Or Luigi.

If you have a good SHFFL game try CF. He doesn't need to wavedash at all. Or if your tech skill is really bad just play Peach.

That's the problem... I do best with Luigi (and Roy) and if you can't wavedash with Luigi it makes a big difference.

Unfortunately I pretty much suck with Captain Falcon but I'm not great with SHFFL anyway.

 

[xelad1]

WOW... I didn't even know there were people that bothered to visit smashboards who couldn't wavedash... wtf is that about? Seriously though, there is not 1 good competitive fighting game out there that doesn't have some sort of broken mechanic or exploit (this includes combo loops, high tiered characters, glitches etc...) they are all exploitable parts of the game that people eventually adapt to and use to their advantage.

The people that mention wavedashing act as though its nonexistence in SSB64 gave them an advantage as players, and that they were somehow really good at that game but suck at this one. The fact is that Isai is the best 64 player and was one of the top melee players for a number of years when he used to compete seriously. Its all about the dedication, even if brawl ended up being the most simple game with literally no exploits and no tiers (obviously impossible since every character would have to be a clone) a select few people would still come out on top because they would spend the time to figure out the most efficient/smartest ways of doing things.

Wavedashing/all advanced tactics help add depth and a faster pace to an otherwise (on the surface level) very simple game, without all of these things I doubt melee would have found the large competitive scene it has now along with sponsorship from MLG and inclusion in Evo... largely regarded as the most prestigious fighting game tournament.

 

[~GregDang!~]

well u all gotta think....... its just the demo version i'm sure in the final product there will be a WD so it doesnt lose its competitiveness

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'll try it for myself when I go.

 

[element_of_fire]

well i'm out... fun chatting and good points all around!!! if we were in a bar it would be drinks on me.... peace

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

no, fire. not "even better." try and feel this, ok? non-WDers don't like being talked to or treated like ******** lepers who should be forced to host their own, seperate, "scrubby" tournies. does any of that really sound ok to you? would you enjoy that?

all you're doing is out-grouping non-WDers and calling them a derogatory name. you can *try* to write it off as a simple, non-judgmental classification, but i think you know it's not, and it's certainly not used that way in the prevailing community.

i'm not interested in arguing about WDing, but i will say something about the attitudes people take over this divisive issue.

I don't think "non-WDers" are treated like ******** lepers because they can't wavedash. Closer to the truth would be that they are treated that way for the arrogant way they flaunt their self-declared pristine form of playing "the way the developers intended". That makes people like them seem like *******, not their lack of skill.

The term "scrub" refers to a state of mind in which a person has no interest in playing to win, especially in a game or sport with a fierce competitive atmosphere. If anyone who is called a scrub feels they don't fit this description, then they should be able to convincingly argue against it.

The person who remarked about WDing being the scapegoat for scrubs who want to win without putting in any effort hit the nail on the head, and I'll reiterate his point. Dedicated players will always beat scrubs, with or without advanced techniques, because of their knowledge. Wavedashing is, again, just the most visible aspect of advanced play, and thus the easier target.

And besides, as long as these creative kiddos keep calling people who like competitive rules "tourney ***s", I see no problem in calling them scrubs.

 

[Johnknight1]

*sigh* I wished I lived in Anaheim, Irvine, heck, even Mexico or San Diego again like when I was a little kid just to go to E for All. The Press only event had to happen ONLY CLOSE BY ME! XD

And EPA, I trust it you'll tell us if there is wavedashing or no wavedashing, definitely. Let's go with the earlier (hopefully). Anyways, I hope you guys enjoy it, and try and record us some vids or something! Maybe it will come to the Bay Area for the public...when hell freezes over

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Here's the thing--

The inclusion of wavedashing does not affect casual players AT ALL. There are plenty of people who have played SSBM casually for years and still do not know how to wavedash. This is in fact the vast majority of Smashers.

The removal of wavedashing does not affect casual players AT ALL. This is only a relevant discussion for competitive players, i.e., tournament-goers. It seems to me a lot of casual players have an inferiority complex because they can't do well competitively, and they blame their losses on other players using exploits. I had the privilege of being called a "wavedashing *******" by someone I 4-stocked at a recent tournament. Clearly the reason my opponent lost was not because he didn't know how to SH, L-cancel, dash-dance, CCC, etc.--it was because I was wavedashing. Wavedashing is just a strawman scrubs attack because it is the most visible of the advanced techs, which collectively comprise what the scrubs see as insurmountable obstacles limiting their potential.

There's no reason to remove advanced techniques that aren't excessively broken. Casual players don't use them and don't go to tournaments. Advanced techniques only change the tournament metagame.

So honestly, why do you care?

And dodging is useful but is not that necessary for many characters (like CF--don't dodge, ever). I hardly ever do it except by accident.

This post wins.

Can a mod please close this topic now?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Shai Hulud]

That's the problem... I do best with Luigi (and Roy) and if you can't wavedash with Luigi it makes a big difference.

You need to closely examine your game if you're doing best with Luigi and Roy. Especially since Luigi is trash without wavedashing, more than any other character except Ice Climbers.

Try some Jigglypuff, Peach, Marth...read the guides, record some vids, go to tournaments. And your tech skill will improve over time, at which point you can switch back to another character. And if it doesn't, just keep playing Peach.

For several characters spacing and just playing smart are much more important than advanced techs (with the exception of L-cancelling, which is important for everyone but Peach). There's too much emphasis on technical skill amidst casual players. It's not THAT big of a determinant in a match's outcome. Generally there's a bottom level of technical skill that competitive players possess. They can L-cancel, dash-dance, CCC, and SH consistently. They can wavedash consistently but may do so only in certain situations. Then there is a huge gap between this bottom level and what is technically feasible for certain characters, like Fox. I play a rather technical Fox myself and I still sometimes lose to Peach players whose tech skill is marginal at best.

 

[Hyper Luigi]

And that's what sucks about this advance techniques you can't make good use out of them with just anyone. And thus the previous advantage and disadvantages commonly noted by most players are even further thrown out of proportion in a manner that makes it increasingly harder to win with anyone you want to play as when you're in a competitive setting.

I may sound stubborn for saying this but I don't want to win with Peach. I do like a challenge and I like to be challenged but more importantly I have characters I sync with best and those are the ones I play with reguardless of what anyone else thinks of them.

I dissagree that Luigi is trash without wavedashing. People say because he's a float that he has a terrible air game but I find his air game to be very useful against most opponents. The slap, the love kick and the boot spike are very effective and the up A is at least good for juggling. Wavedashing would improve his ground game tremendously though. But I stick to rolling, B down and the occasion fake outs to get close enough to my opponent to get a smash in. Running into an up-smash is quite useful when you're stuck on the ground.

I've been playing Melee since it came out. I've played hours upon hours upon hours and I haven't really set into an exact playing style so I feel I shouldn't have any real mindset limitations but still I have trouble making these fancy moves work so in turn I choose not to rely on them and I wish that element of competitve play wasn't so bothersome. I like to play competively but when I constantly lose it's very disscouraging considering the hours upon hours I have invested in playing this game. Much of it not in a casual setting.

And I've got to be up in 4 hours so I'm going to leave it at that.

 

[kilroy]

I don't think "non-WDers" are treated like ******** lepers because they can't wavedash. Closer to the truth would be that they are treated that way for the arrogant way they flaunt their self-declared pristine form of playing "the way the developers intended". That makes people like them seem like *******, not their lack of skill.

the unfortunate social side-effect of this is that now, if one deigns to voice an opinion against WDing, it's met by immediate labeling of "scrub." not very pleasant nor understanding.

The term "scrub" refers to a state of mind in which a person has no interest in playing to win, especially in a game or sport with a fierce competitive atmosphere. If anyone who is called a scrub feels they don't fit this description, then they should be able to convincingly argue against it.

And besides, as long as these creative kiddos keep calling people who like competitive rules "tourney ***s", I see no problem in calling them scrubs.

you don't see a problem here? ok, so, you don't like people calling you names, and think that's bad. so, in response, you will call them names, and think that's ok? that's the ol' tit-for-tat, "you do it so i'll do it too."

but hey, what can one do? this is sorta why the world sucks. let's try, "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you." it's better.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I don't think "non-WDers" are treated like ******** lepers because they can't wavedash. Closer to the truth would be that they are treated that way for the arrogant way they flaunt their self-declared pristine form of playing "the way the developers intended". That makes people like them seem like *******, not their lack of skill.

I'm sorry, but this is kinda...a genralization? I'm a casual player myself, and excluding the first few weeks of my joining SmashBoards. (I was a scrub then, I admit it) I don't normally flaunt the way I play, or act like its the "correct" way. Yet I'm grouped in with the rest of them because I don't WD? Kind of unfair IMO.

The term "scrub" refers to a state of mind in which a person has no interest in playing to win, especially in a game or sport with a fierce competitive atmosphere. If anyone who is called a scrub feels they don't fit this description, then they should be able to convincingly argue against it.

Not playing to win? Because I wont abuse exploits and other tactics, I don't play to win? I certainly don't play to lose, that's for sure. Sometimes I play for laughs, that's true, but when I select Link on the character select, my first thought isn't "Hey, I plan on losing this match." Just because my style of fighting doesn't match your "Do-anything-to-win" style doesn't mean I don't play to win, OKAY?!

The person who remarked about WDing being the scapegoat for scrubs who want to win without putting in any effort hit the nail on the head, and I'll reiterate his point. Dedicated players will always beat scrubs, with or without advanced techniques, because of their knowledge. Wavedashing is, again, just the most visible aspect of advanced play, and thus the easier target.

Personally, the more I look at it, the more I realize I don't mind WDing. L-cancelling seems to be the big Advanced Tech I fear, but my only problem with WDing is it allows for insane combos such as Waveshining, which IMO is utter and complete B.S.

And besides, as long as these creative kiddos keep calling people who like competitive rules "tourney ***s", I see no problem in calling them scrubs.

I only call the arrogant sounding tourney players tourney tards. For the most part, they seem like a jolly bunch, as long as they aren't trying to make me look like...well, a "******** leper."

Quotes in bold text above. Thx.

 

[Shai Hulud]

And that's what sucks about this advance techniques you can't make good use out of them with just anyone. And thus the previous advantage and disadvantages commonly noted by most players are even further thrown out of proportion in a manner that makes it increasingly harder to win with anyone you want to play as when you're in a competitive setting.

I may sound stubborn for saying this but I don't want to win with Peach. I do like a challenge and I like to be challenged but more importantly I have characters I sync with best and those are the ones I play with reguardless of what anyone else thinks of them.

I dissagree that Luigi is trash without wavedashing. People say because he's a float that he has a terrible air game but I find his air game to be very useful against most opponents. The slap, the love kick and the boot spike are very effective and the up A is at least good for juggling. Wavedashing would improve his ground game tremendously though. But I stick to rolling, B down and the occasion fake outs to get close enough to my opponent to get a smash in. Running into an up-smash is quite useful when you're stuck on the ground.

I've been playing Melee since it came out. I've played hours upon hours upon hours and I haven't really set into an exact playing style so I feel I shouldn't have any real mindset limitations but still I have trouble making these fancy moves work so in turn I choose not to rely on them and I wish that element of competitve play wasn't so bothersome. I like to play competively but when I constantly lose it's very disscouraging considering the hours upon hours I have invested in playing this game. Much of it not in a casual setting.

And I've got to be up in 4 hours so I'm going to leave it at that.

Who the hell says Luigi has a terrible air game? Find some new people to play with my friend. I've played Melee for about 9 months.

And I don't blame you for not wanting to play Peach. Peach is a ho.

 

[OATH]

Mark Bozon of IGN got to play the Brawl demo, and later made a Q&A thread on the IGN boards.


I don't know how reliable he is, but at least he's trying. Does anyone else have any information about WDing in Brawl?

~Dac

no one responded to what i asked (:sob ) anyways what does he mean by L-catch

 

[Shai Hulud]

I think L-catch is a ******** abomination of L-cancel.

Or it's a new way to catch bombs I don't know.

 

[kilroy]

no one responded to what i asked (:sob ) anyways what does he mean by L-catch

what did you ask? he means L-canceling.

 

[Rash]

Couldn't they at least have gotten some more time in with a regular ****ing controller?

 

[Shai Hulud]

Couldn't they at least have gotten some more time in with a regular ****ing controller?

Yeah why someone would want to play on a Wii-mote is beyond me. THERE'S NO ****ING ANALOG.

If you play on a Wii-mote say goodbye to subtleties such as omnidirectional DI, wavedashing, wavelanding...WALKING.

It's no wonder the IGN guys couldn't wavedash with a 4-directional digital pad.