Was Javi the best player at one point?

[trahhSTEEZY]

kage & stelzig

I never once said he needed to play hbox to beat hbox. as merkuri said, i was saying he needed to play very skilled puffs which is already rare enough to find, and even then there are still skill gaps. kage you never said 'non-pro', you practically said any puff will do. IE "javis friend could just pick puff and train him" completely different.

So im impyling that the best thing for him would've been to play against the best puffs below hbox (even if he couldn't that's not the point). and that playing some random friend puff is nowhere near the same as playing hbox.

said this earlier..kage realized his armada example was bad, and then somehow it turned into me saying you need to play hbox to beat hbox. dunno where i said that.

I never argued that you needed to play against a pro for the practice, i was saying that not just anyone will do for learning a matchup. i dont feel playing against one specific person all the time in a specific matchup will fully prepare you for that matchup. People don't always expose the right or same weaknesses as the next guy and they may expose things your friend or whoever wasn't training you for.


also the part about tricks, i don't see how it's not true. it's not like im saying he's only better than the other puffs specifically because he does certain tricks. no. it was only in response to kage saying "All you need is playing lots of friendlies with a Jiggs and learn what kind of tricks she can do." , and i obviously don't think all puffs do the same tricks. I think he oversimplifys learning a matchup.

 

[Divinokage]

I think you over-complicate it. When you reach a certain level you can see things lower level players cannot. Just like when you see a video, some players will only view: "Oh the player is DDing" but he will not know why he's DDing and what he's looking for in that particular position. It's obviously possible to see what he could've done instead and you can do that while playing a match-up.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Sounds like you're now implying that any professional should have no johns for not knowing a matchup, since they are at a high enough level to see things more clearly, and that he also should've learned enough on the spot to win.


whaaaaaaaaaa whatevs. lets drop it

 

[Divinokage]

I agree with that a true fighter should not have any weakness. Though things that may happen during a match cannot be foreseen and sometimes it's really tough to adapt. You know Jiggs can just change the momentum in one hit, you can't really say pro players didn't know the match-up just because Jiggs landed some rests due to some mix-ups. How can you really observe that a player does not know the match-up at all?

 

[Blistering Speed]

Sigh.

You're both partly wrong and your respective rationale's are terrible.

Now stop.

 

[Divinokage]

Says YOUR experience? Hahaha!

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

lool *****

 

[Merkuri]

Kage do you understand trahhSTEEZY's point? Because I really don't think you do.

 

[Divinokage]

I do but I disagree with it, KK fought with Idea a bunch so he knows what to expect for Hbox if he were to use any moves he would be able to counter in advance. He probably watched a bunch of vids too. I mean you have to work with what you can in your entourage, no matter the level.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i honestly don't think there are any puffs anywhere near idea's level in mexico. and even if there were, i don't think javi practiced vs them at all.

ultimately what is your point kage? that matchup johns are not a valid excuse at top level? what do you say about hungryboxes 8-0 or so record against armada's peach? hungrybox is simply better? Let's not include young link, as switching characters is not part of this discussion.

 

[Bing]

i honestly don't think there are any puffs anywhere near idea's level in mexico. and even if there were, i don't think javi practiced vs them at all.

ultimately what is your point kage? that matchup johns are not a valid excuse at top level? what do you say about hungryboxes 8-0 or so record against armada's peach? hungrybox is simply better? Let's not include young link, as switching characters is not part of this discussion.

There are some MU's that are incredibly difficult for some characters, so really we shouldnt even be getting into this area of the dicussion.

Like Kage said, A pro can watch something and take more away from it then someone like me or worse. Now if Javi wanted to truly be prepared, even if their are no puff's in Mexico(which I find a bit hard to believe) than he still could have studied, asked questions and here, watched youtube videos, because for Certain charcters, especially like Puff, Styles are faily similar.

 

[Merkuri]

There are some MU's that are incredibly difficult for some characters, so really we shouldnt even be getting into this area of the dicussion.

Like Kage said, A pro can watch something and take more away from it then someone like me or worse. Now if Javi wanted to truly be prepared, even if their are no puff's in Mexico(which I find a bit hard to believe) than he still could have studied, asked questions and here, watched youtube videos, because for Certain charcters, especially like Puff, Styles are faily similar.

Watching vidoes doesn't help half as much as actually playing against the character. I won't speak for Trahhs but I'm saying that simply watching videos of some Foreign player isn't substantial for you to learn a matchup. All you will be doing is theorycrafting where as having experience to put into practice is far more important(isn't that what top players are always saying anyways?)

 

[Divinokage]

Watching vidoes doesn't help half as much as actually playing against the character. I won't speak for Trahhs but I'm saying that simply watching videos of some Foreign player isn't substantial for you to learn a matchup. All you will be doing is theorycrafting where as having experience to put into practice is far more important(isn't that what top players are always saying anyways?)

Well then if you really can't do that, then do it yourself! Like Bing says, you can play the character to learn what he can do. That's kinda how I got better with the Falco match-up, I just trained the character to understand the psychology of that character and then now I know what he's looking for in certain positions. I mean if you truly want to be the best then you have to do everything you can to bring the advantage to your side, though that still doesn't change that Falco vs Ganon is still *** for me. I have to play really good.

I can probably say that Hbox's style destroys Peachs, it's not really about the match-up. He showed how limited Peach's approaches can be on Jiggs and Peach has to rely more on luck to win the match-up apparently. Javi being aggressive might not have his best choice vs Hbox, but did you at least see game 3, he was handling the situation a lot better and probably took enough experience out of it so that he can train next time to beat him assuming he does train vs Jiggs somehow. My point was always about the strength of the player.

 

[musashi]

There are so many puffs in Mexico, but they arent good.
Javi lost cause hbox is better than him and theres no more to it. GG and GL next time.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

 

[Divinokage]

Well then... lol. On blast.

 

[Merkuri]

I can't quite accept that.

It's like saying Mango lost to hbox because Hbox is better than him. Or Dr.Peepee lost to Javi because Javi is better than him. Things just aren't so simple.

 

[twizzlerj]

this sums up the thread i would say thanks man.

 

[Divinokage]

I can't quite accept that.

It's like saying Mango lost to hbox because Hbox is better than him. Or Dr.Peepee lost to Javi because Javi is better than him. Things just aren't so simple.

Yes it is, there are no 2nd chances in tournament. Hbox was better than them during the time of the tournament.

 

[twizzlerj]

Yes it is, there are no 2nd chances in tournament. Hbox was better than them during the time of the tournament.

Yup no could've should've would haves what happened happened Hbox was the second best player in the world that day.

 

[takieddine]

******** topic is ********.

Melee community just seems to circle jerk and hop into conclusions after something exciting happens.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

lol kage i wasn't 'on blast' with that picture, i just found musashis post funny, esp. the way he said it. he didn't change anything, it was just an extra supporter on your opinion..

I can't quite accept that.

It's like saying Mango lost to hbox because Hbox is better than him. Or Dr.Peepee lost to Javi because Javi is better than him. Things just aren't so simple.

i feel the same as merkuri here.


also kage "at the time in tournament" is not the same as simply stating X player is better than Y.

 

[Divinokage]

That doesn't matter at all, get outplayed. 3-0ing Mango is ****ing good.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i completely agree..

 

[Merkuri]

Yup no could've should've would haves what happened happened Hbox was the second best player in the world that day.

Except that most of us are not concerned with specific days but instead concerned with consistency overall.

 

[Divinokage]

Ya but then the topic is pretty much broken if you want to go that far, so ya that's enough for me.

 

[AXE 09]

I know I'm kinda late but just throwing my opinion out there...

I think Dark would have at least made bracket at an international

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

how could you possibly see this to be true?!!?!?!?!?!?

can you atleast go watch one of his matches, then think about who he could've played in r2 at apex, and then get back to me?

 

[ruhtraeel]

I know I'm kinda late but just throwing my opinion out there...

I think Dark would have at least made bracket at an international

I dunno man, that guy plays pretty stupid xd

but I model tech skill off of him

 

[Bing]

KirbyK told me his r2 pool was pretty easy so maybe that one?

But no, r2 is as far as I see him making it now, atleast until he smartens up. Tech will only get you so far.

 

[Bones0]

At the risk of beating a dead horse, Trah was just saying that Javi would have done better vs. Hbox if he had practice vs. a high-level Puff. This should be common sense, and I'm sure even Hbox would testify that he was abusing Javi's lack of knowledge in the matchup. The idea that Javi could have played another Puff player of lesser skill and achieved just as much improvement as he could playing vs. Hbox is ridiculous. Obviously you can learn a lot about a matchup even vs. players much weaker than you, but it's hardly comparable when you are talking about Hbox vs. no-name Puffs that play completely different. That shouldn't detract from Hbox's victory of course. Being good at Melee is synonymous with knowing matchups, so Javi's lack of matchup knowledge vs. Puff is simply an area of his "game" that he will have to work on.

 

[Bing]

I agree with what you're saying Bones0, Its just that well atleast what Im getting at is that he could have maybe faired a bit better against hbox if he had SOME sort of knowledge. Not saying he would have won. No you cant compare someone like Hbox to scrub puff player X but some sort of knowledge would help regardless, and we all got start somewhere, and make the best of what we've got...

 

[Divinokage]

At the risk of beating a dead horse, Trah was just saying that Javi would have done better vs. Hbox if he had practice vs. a high-level Puff. This should be common sense, and I'm sure even Hbox would testify that he was abusing Javi's lack of knowledge in the matchup. The idea that Javi could have played another Puff player of lesser skill and achieved just as much improvement as he could playing vs. Hbox is ridiculous. Obviously you can learn a lot about a matchup even vs. players much weaker than you, but it's hardly comparable when you are talking about Hbox vs. no-name Puffs that play completely different. That shouldn't detract from Hbox's victory of course. Being good at Melee is synonymous with knowing matchups, so Javi's lack of matchup knowledge vs. Puff is simply an area of his "game" that he will have to work on.

Ridiculous, I just said he hasn't done his homework properly.. I hope he learned his lesson. Like I said PP did it, KK did it too.. I almost did it while even if there's no Jiggs here to practice with.

 

[Bones0]

Well I wouldn't just jump to the conclusion that he didn't do his homework. For all you know he studied Hbox's videos specifically and practiced against a local Puff.

 

[Bing]

Yeah thats true, its not fair to say he didnt study, for all we know he could have. It just seems like he didnt because of how lop-sided the matches were.

 

[Divinokage]

Then he didn't do the proper practice, we've all seen in tournament, he didn't know who he was fighting basically lol.

 

[Bones0]

You didn't beat him either Kage. Why didn't you do the proper practice?

 

[Divinokage]

Like I said in my earlier posts, I dont have the necessary requirement as a PLAYER to outplay them correctly. Their skill is far greater, it has nothing to do with match-ups.

 

[Bones0]

Maybe you are just bad at every matchup.

 

[Divinokage]

Maybe.. could be possible lol.