Wario's Matchups - Free discussion!

[Mr.Pickle]

Link isn't a big deal, he can rack up percentage pretty fast, but he can't kill anything, nor edge guard. Wario however can kill him at just about any percent. His projectiles aren't very threatening either since all he gets is damage, and you can use your aerial mobility to great effect against them.

The rest you listed though, they're pretty accurate. Though mk is definitely easier now, might be an even matchup.

 

[supascoot]

Link isn't a big deal, he can rack up percentage pretty fast, but he can't kill anything, nor edge guard. Wario however can kill him at just about any percent. His projectiles aren't very threatening either since all he gets is damage, and you can use your aerial mobility to great effect against them.

The rest you listed though, they're pretty accurate. Though mk is definitely easier now, might be an even matchup.

I would also like to add that I find Falcon to be a difficult MU. While it probably is more even then the other listed falcon has some advantages over wario. Getting grabbed by falcon, while a terrible thing for any character, has many DI mixup throws and a CG on poor DI. While it is a weakness of mine (assuming I have full aerial dominance) Falcons aerials can be tough to deal with as they often beat Wario's. Again, this is probably just a personal bad MU due to my own mistakes, as I've seen Reflex be able to beat good falcons in tourney and wario does have the tools to beat him, it is something to consider.

(also anyone have any tips for the bowser MU and the falcon MU?)

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I feel like that matchup is pretty even honestly. Like falcon doesn't have a lot of moves that just flat out beat out wario's, when you take in to account his aerial mobility. Nair is good of course, but not to the extent to where it flat out shuts you down. Both characters get an equal amount of followups from a confirm off one another, especially considering falcon doesn't get some of the more free followups he gets on some other characters. They both edge guard each other hella hard, and can kill each other extremely early. This matchup is one of my favorites, and it feels dead even to me. More falcons please lol.

 

[StargodGaming]

Maybe Wario More Powerful in The Wii U Because I Tired Him

Wario Is Kinda Good Project M I Dont Much People Using IN tourneys

 

[Ballss]

Wario=best character b/c shoulder=grounded falcon knee, waft=G&W parachute with bigger vertical hitbox, SHFFL combo game is amazing

 

[Mookiefish]

(also anyone have any tips for the bowser MU and the falcon MU?)

For the Bowser matchup, get used to Bite -> Footstool -> Dair -> Whatever. Bowser is so fat and slow that you can just weave circles around him in the air, and since he relies on super armor and CCing, your Chomp should be getting some extra mileage. If you manage to get Bowser offstage and he gets the ledge be ready to either hop over his ledge attack and go for a punish. I'm not super knowledgeable on the matchup, but the few Bowsers I've played in my city kinda get pooped on.

 

[ConeZ]

Alright, so I have been absent from this for a while, and I am uncertain how much has been discussed since 3.5 hit, but now that it's settled, I really like Wario where he is now (except the absence of armor on the Waft... my friend that plays Diddy beat it with Jab 1..

JAB ONE...

Really salty about that one...)

Anyways, the waft is still good, I am just really salty about a few incidents lately xD
In any case, I had a few questions:

1) How do we get damage on Ness? Combos, etc?
I know this is a rather specific question, but I have a friend that plays Ness, and we are pretty much equal in Neutral, but his combo/ punish game is better in the matchup because I can't ever get more than one to 2 hits on him because of his Nair, and his Fair, and he will usually get a couple hits in once he gets an advantage.

Also, to elaborate, I CAN kill Ness, I am good with all the waft setups, and I can punish him once he is off-stage and everything, so finishing out stocks ins't a problem. I just have trouble getting good follow-ups/ combos to put myself in those situations.

2) Melee Characters. I feel helpless against Fox and Marth. I think everyone knows these matchups are bad, but can anyone give me advice on how to deal because I have a friend that mains Fox, Falco, and Marth, and it is so frustrating when I play against him because I have to work so much harder to do anything (or so it feels).

3) Luigi. I don't really have a huge problem with him, but in neutral I like spacing down tilts, and my muscle memory against every other character means I follow up when I land it, and he always nairs me xD
I know the best solution is to stop following up, but does anyone have a good handle on the Luigi matchup? I don't feel it is bad necessarily. Just different.

 

[Turazrok]

Gotta use footstools to extend floaty combos IMO and don't try too hard for the extra hit.

For spacies, all about your grab game. If you can get the grabs and convert to kills either through u throw combos or bthrow gimps. Spacing is hard and getting gimped sucks but you just gotta hella outplay.

Marth is again all bait and gimp, it's very hard but if you can catch him committing you can swoop in and combo him offstage for easy gimps through dair or drop down nair .

Luigi is one of those lame MUs where you just space bair all day.

 

[Strong Badam]

I think Toon Link is a worse matchup for Wario than Fox, and I never thought I would say that. x___x So impossible. I just can't catch the lil guy.

 

[Agi]

I heard about yesterday's set, sounded rough. Haven't had the chance to watch it yet, how was your item game?

 

[Strong Badam]

My item game has room for improvement for sure, but the way Lunchables plays he's usually right there ready to punish you if you do anything other than instant item throw, which is super hard.

 

[Strong Badam]

Random late night first run at a MU chart: http://pastebin.com/gPU2qKqK

Subject to change, based on mostly my experiences mixed with a few opinions of other Wario players I've gathered over the past few months since 3.5's release. Discussion welcome.

 

[Agi]

Why so dominant over Lucas? This is a rather conservative chart, not much to object to, but I don't see what makes the matchup as skewed in our favor as the Bowser matchup. Speaking of fatties, I'm pretty sure we beat Charizard as well - remind me what tools he has in neutral, DD with the threat of RAR NAir or grab mixup? Wait, no, his jab was a pretty good poking tool as well, and he combos vertically which we're weak to... hm, I could see it. You'll have to convince me on Peach being even though. Granted, I'm pretty sure I play the matchup terribly, but she's been a thorn in my side for longer than I can remember.

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't think a 6-4 is particularly dominant. I just think we win the MU. & I think Bowser is underrated in this MU, a lot of people are like oh yeah bowser gets 90:10'd bcuz Chomp xDDD but really we just win IMO.
I still have nightmares of 3.02 Charizard and I think people overstate his nerfs; I think he's a pretty capable character with solid range and good ground speed. It's even IMO until I'm convinced otherwise.

Peach could be a bad (-1) MU for Wario, but I need more exp in it. Any time I struggle vs a floaty with poor horizontal movement, I remember to use a lot of Bair and my problems seem to vanish.

 

[Agi]

Good Bowsers are hard to come by. I'm really hoping to hunt down @ Frost | Odds for some friendlies at PNW Majors next week to get a real feel for the matchup beyond fatty combo food.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'll try to wear bright colors or smth so I stand out in the crowd, heh. If there's gonna be no pools, I want to MM everyone and try to start figuring out as many matchups as possible.

As far as the Wario matchup specifically, there's a few things that have made it really frustrating in the past.

- The bite: Bowser has no real means of avoiding it
- The dair: Because Bowser's recovery is so linear, it's very difficult for him to avoid getting spiked by large dairs. Wario's is even worse for Bowser than most because it covers so much vertical space - effectively drawing a line across which Bowser needs to move (very slowly due to his lack of air mobility).
- Side B: Bowser's tech rolls are really awful, and Bowser's huge hurtbox means that hitting with the side B is extremely easy in general. It's also oppressively strong when edgeguarding Bowser, because simply by jumping, Wario can easily cover both low and high recovery options.
- Bowser is basically the perfect level of floatiness + size to extend Wario's build-a-bear combos ad infinitum


That said, Bowser's range is currently problematic for Wario to deal with, and Wario's typically-airborne nature puts him into the perfect region to get nailed with bowser's Fairs - one of the most ridiculous moves in the game atm. Wario's lack of mobility also means he'll get dash attacked a lot, but Bowser doesn't get any followups on that from Wario's weight/floatiness class.

I'd probably put the MU at 65:35 or 70:30, but it's very possible that I'm overstating my case. 60:40 is an entirely reasonable estimate.

 

[Agi]

As far as offstage goes, does Bowser's Up B not provide enough disjoint to stuff a Side-B attempt? I always saw it as a bad matchup to him because he's vulnerable to BOTH of Wario's setup throws and goes basically no distance at all from his FAir, leading to easy extensions. (don't get me STARTED on how big of a footstool target he is) I definitely see getting in as rough though especially since I'm sure there's a bunch of mobility options I'm totally unaware of for his spacing game. Bowser's FAir range is as deceptive as Ganondorf's to me.

And I'll be wearing my purple hoodie, at least until it gets too hot in there, lol. I need to see if there's a tourney thread on here for the event somewhere, I have no clue who's going. It's a bit of a dead zone for high-level smash in SE Washington. Need to find out who I have the chance to play against.

 

[Frost | Odds]

As far as offstage goes, does Bowser's Up B not provide enough disjoint to stuff a Side-B attempt?

Nope. The rest of your observations are pretty on target, though. Dthrow murders Bowser, especially if it places him offstage due to the strength of Wario's edgeguards in the MU.

 

[Agi]

Well that sucks, even Firefox has enough coverage there. While charging. Sometimes. I really need to take it into debug to figure out the inconsistency - might just be hitting Fox before the hitboxes come out and forgetting that's a thing, adding to my confusion. Thanks for the input.

 

[Frost | Odds]

No problem.

@ Strong Badam , why do you have Ivysaur listed as so much more difficult than ROB? I was under the impression that ROB was strictly better in almost every matchup.

 

[supascoot]

@ Frost | Odds He mentioned in the tier list thread that wario has a very easy time sticking by robs weak points and floating about where it is hard to engage (aka above his head). Wario can also gimp rob fairly well, with some nice high knockback/low angle attacks. Wario's "hit it once offstage to win" style of edgeguarding works well on heavier characters, especially with how limited rob is after being hit away. Wario can combo rob on the ground well, with nice mixups and footstools to extend combos as shown here https://youtu.be/V9gmp7FPUhE?t=3m47s

 

[Strong Badam]

No problem.

@ Strong Badam , why do you have Ivysaur listed as so much more difficult than ROB? I was under the impression that ROB was strictly better in almost every matchup.

Though they're both floaty, ROBs size makes him a lot easier for Wario to combo. ROB has good hitboxes but he doesn't have objective *disjoint* like Ivysaur does, which is what Wario struggles against. Wario has a real hard time dealing with Fair/Bair in neutral, and she has Razor Leaf as well to apply pressure. ROB's projectiles don't supplement his approach the same way that Ivysaur's do. Also Ivysaur is way better at edgeguarding Wario.

 

[Anime]

What's the best way to handle kirby? I see you having him win slightly, but there's a guy I keep meeting who kinda dismantles me, especially by stealing my bite.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Why is link an even matchup? Imo that one is more like a 60:40 in wario's favor. Sure link can throw stuff at him, but it hardly matters since he can't kill wario at any reasonable percent, unless they have terrible di. Not to mention wario can combo him to ridiculous %s, can kill him extremely early, and steam rolls all over his recovery. All link can do is put a lot of percent on him, which would mean something if he could kill him lower than 160 to 180%. Oh yeah, almost forgot to mention that link doesn't have the movement to keep him out, nor fast enough moves to get him off him once wario is in.

 

[redcometchar]

Hello garlic fan club,
We are discussing Wario v Wolf this week here http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-discussion-week-1-wario.400190/. Any help would be appreciated.
Ill cut paste the OPs bullets in here for reference
Wario Strengths:

• Good aerial drift
• Fantastic Nair
• good juggle tool (Uair)
• Fairly decent tech chases
• Potential OHKO's using waft (above 40-ish percent)
• Good command grab in Chomp

Wario Weaknesses

• Short stubby arms mean that he can really lose out to disjoints and decent projectiles
• Great combo food, especially for our hero, Wolf
• predictable and short range recovery makes it easy to guard
• Side smash and Side B, while lethal, are very punishable on wiff

Key Points:

• Laser to force his approach or to cover yurs as ther eisn't much he can do about it
• Respect the bite. It's got a large hit box and can lead to really good conversions and tech chases on wolf
• Angle your shield downward slightly if being shield pressured on the ground as D-smash will shield stab
• Wolf's D-smash is very good kill option against Wario
• While not the best edgeguarder, you don't particularly have to be to edge guard wolf, so make sure you don't get knocked off stage, else you will have a hell of a time getting back

 

[CrazyCupofJoe]

@ Strong Badam Why is ICs a 45:55?

 

[sneakytako]

Hello garlic fan club,
W
Wario Weaknesses

• Side smash and Side B, while lethal, are very punishable on wiff

This should probably be changed to on shield, at least for side-b. Side-b is not an easy thing to whiff punish due to the option of jumping, but on shield puff can even run up rest OoS. I have no idea was the ideal punish with wolf would be, probably shine into stuff, wd grab, or fsmash.

 

[Thermal]

Any help on the Peach MU? I play this guy fairly often in Bracket. I usually win or lose the first game very closely, but 2nd/3rd game he reads me like a book. My approaches probably become too predictable, as I am just beginning with Wario.

 

[Agi]

Peach is one of those frustrating matchups where approaching just seems to be a bad idea in general. I typically do a lot of DD camping in general against her, AGTing/powershielding her turnips when she tries to toss them and just trying to threaten her space. Try to kill her off the top with UAirs/waft/Up B (if she's near the blast zone), killing off the side can be an exercise in frustration.

 

[Strong Badam]

@ Strong Badam Why is ICs a 45:55?

This is a pretty shallow question. I can't tell which direction you're coming from (whether you feel Wario does better or worse) and you've made no statements for me to agree/disagree with. I've played the MU a bit with Hylian and I think ICs have an advantage and so does he.

Any help on the Peach MU? I play this guy fairly often in Bracket. I usually win or lose the first game very closely, but 2nd/3rd game he reads me like a book. My approaches probably become too predictable, as I am just beginning with Wario.

Bit of advice:

Any time I struggle vs a floaty with poor horizontal movement, I remember to use a lot of Bair and my problems seem to vanish.

Neutral is a struggle against Peach but exercising patience is really helpful. While she has great moves that are really hard to punish, she doesn't invade your space in an overly oppressive manner, so playing the long game is viable against her. Be near her when she lands with an FC'd aerial and then try to catch her when she goes back up to resume floating.

Learning to instant toss/aerial glide toss can be pretty handy to deal with turnips but you can just fair them if you want to be lazy.

 

[Anime]

I've been struggling hard against kirby for a while now. I think I'm starting to form a mental block against that character. He's got such a small hurt box with big feet, I just always seem to lose neutral. And then when he copies my bite things really go down hill.

 

[Thermal]

I was actually just about to ask the Kirby matchup. Some Kirby mains tend to think it is in Wario's favor but I struggle with it a bit.

 

[TricksterNo1]

Can I get some help on the Wolf matchup. I have trouble dealing with lazers in nuetral, and I can't seem to combo him as much as it seems like I should, aside fron uthrow, up air combos.

 

[it-a-albinomoose]

For wolf you can chain grab him for a while, keep doing up throw then jab reset grab again and continue, if you have a waft up you can finish with that around 70%ishish or a bair or nair, uair won't kill until decently high % since he falls so fast, or if they get to a platform tech chase with chomp or airial, if they don't DI wrong you can grab again and continue chain grabs, this should work for all spacies, fox I haven't found the need to jab reset as much. As for lasers use your air mobility and weave between them, if they're spamming lasers side b can weave and you can get a hit off

 

[AnEnemyMongoose]

I saw some matchup chart that showed Wario as having it good against Ganondorf. Do you people agree with that? Why or why not?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Yeah ICs is kind of a bad matchup, not marth bad, but it can be pretty difficult. In a nutshell, it boils down to wario being unable to do his usual shenanigans, baiting things with aerial movement, bite mixups and throw sterf, and cambos, as well, and ics still being able to do their usual stuff against you. Thank their movement, stupid grab nonsense, and nana for that.

The ganon matchup is 50/50 imo. Ganon can space you out with ftilt, nairs, and jab, and he does the whole ganon thing where he can punish you heavily for your mistakes, in very few moves. On the flip side to that, once wario gets in, ganon is probably taking 70 to 80% in one string, or losing a lot of stage positioning, that's extremely bad for ganon because wario gimps him so easily. They have similar survivability and kill potential, so the matchup basically boils down to can ganon keep you out and hit you 5 times, or can wario touch you once and press the right buttons/get him off stage and sit on his recovery.

 

[AnEnemyMongoose]

The ganon matchup is 50/50 imo. Ganon can space you out with ftilt, nairs, and jab, and he does the whole ganon thing where he can punish you heavily for your mistakes, in very few moves. On the flip side to that, once wario gets in, ganon is probably taking 70 to 80% in one string, or losing a lot of stage positioning, that's extremely bad for ganon because wario gimps him so easily. They have similar survivability and kill potential, so the matchup basically boils down to can ganon keep you out and hit you 5 times, or can wario touch you once and press the right buttons/get him off stage and sit on his recovery.

So just don't give him space and don't make mistakes. Gotcha.

What can Wario use to outspace Ganon? I know side-b, bair, and nair are good options, but is there anything else?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Dacus is usually the best way to get in, distance wise, but don't just throw it out all the time. It's easy to beat out if your opponent catches on, so be sneaky with it. Ftilt and dsmash can be used in certain situations as well, but they have a good bit of commitment to them, so be careful in your usage of them. Generally you're not going to be beating ganon in a spacing war, or a lot of characters for that matter, so you'll be mostly wiggling in the air to try and get him to whiff something, or crouch under his stuff, wario's crouch is hella good.

 

[AnEnemyMongoose]

Sounds like a plan. I'll try this strategy out next tourney. Thanks.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Hey man no problem, hopefully my advice helps your chances with the big W.