Wario's Match-Ups!

[DMG]

Starts at what, 20ish? 30ish? I don't remember exactly but it's earlier than the one on Falco and goes on further than DK

 

[Seagull Joe]

59-220.

 

[DMG]

Hmm... that doesn't sound right. 220 does but I could have sworn it started even earlier than Falco. Falco at 57%

Lemme go test that out

Yeah I'm nearly positive that it starts earlier than that. I'm able to start it after 2 claps, no training mode reg brawl mode.

Maybe that's the optimal "range" though?

Tried it again, can start it at like 20 something

 

[Waymas]

This MU is obviously on wario advantage imo +1, still dont get too cocky cause wolf can wall wario with bairs , fairs and some lasers. Play with patience. The cg will help you a ton on this MU , if im not mistaken you can buffer a fsmash after a dthrow at like 130% and kill wolf (Like DK).

 

[DMG]

^^^ I am almost positive that you cannot Fsmash Wolf out of the CG. Haven't looked in depth at it but that's my initial guess.

For the CG however yeah I'm at least starting it in the 20's and 30's no problem. That may not be the optimal range so to speak, but it does work and I know that because Wario has to buffer it or else the CG doesn't work on these characters (Spacies). You cannot turn around regrab Falco or Wolf, the CG works because you are grabbing them as they "land" and their body is closer to Wario before they settle on the ground. So if he snags them with the grab, it 100% has to be a buffered one, or you're wasting time turning around and walking forward and that's obvious/not the CG lol. DK is an exception because his body is so big that he happens to be in range even if you don't buffer, potentially same issue with Bowser. CF and Ganon I believe are also like Fox Falco/the grab HAS to be buffered or else they naturally fall too far away from you.

Anyone else wanna test it?

 

[xzx]

Seagull Joe: +2
DMG: +2
Gheb_01: +2
Rizen: +2
MegaRobMan: +2
SuperShyGuy: +3
Ishieymoro: +2
ShadowAzure: +2
LOE1: +2
xzx: +1
Croi: +2
Buff: +1

Wait, can we CG Fox??

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm pretty sure everyone can chain-something on Fox (except DDD lol)

 

[DMG]

No we can't CG Fox, I meant the Spacies we can CG (Wolf Falco). I was saying that the CG on them only works if you buffer because the buffered grab connects as they are "landing" and their bodies are barely close enough during that process to get grabbed. If you try to turn around and regrab without buffering, once they are done landing they are outside of your range. The same applies to the CG on Falcon and Ganon. DK and Bowser I believe are still in range because of how massive their bodies are, but you still need to buffer the grab on them or else they can escape.


Dthrow to turn around Dtilt however does work on Fox and works on anyone in the cast who is forced to land after Wario Dthrow (Floaty or really light characters do not have this however. If your character can DJ out of Wario Dthrow, that means they avoid the regrab/Dtilt)

Some characters that you cannot normally CG, get grabbed if they land on a slant and the %'s are right. Works on Snake, Dedede, MK, etc

 

[xzx]

I looked up this list we had:

Falco - 53% to 120%

Donkey Kong - 0% to 100, 110% to 145%

Bowser - 0% to 180%

Falcon - 0% to 70%

Wolf - 59% to 200%

Ganondorf - 0% to 90%

This is the shame of Wario. Fox isn't on it thank goodness. Wolf has to be damaged a little before we can CG him. Also, the CG on CF goes "only" until 70%. (I think I change the MU back to +1, since Wolf can do much until we damage him to 59%.)

 

[DMG]

I know for a fact that you can CG Wolf before 59%, unless there is something I'm missing like Shine ruining it because Wario definitely has Wolf in range at 20-30 ish for the regrab. I tested it out a bit ago. That range may be the optimal CG range, but as far as the earliest you can start that % is 20 something.


The slant thing I am talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjKJfAxSQ5w

Dedede on certain slants gets glitchy like that. For other characters or other slant angles it won't cause the "freezing" and you still get the regrab. Castle Siege or Frigate for example. Any place with a wall to your back also allows a regrab. Moving platforms can give you a regrab (Platforms moving sideways and upwards), Rainbow Cruise shifts characters in the air and allows for certain regrabs/punishes, few other stages and aspects but yeah that covers a lot of it. Should make a video on stuff one day.


Edit: Wolf may get out before 59% with Shine, even though he's in range of the regrab and it looks like it nabs him without shine coming out. IDK, but if Shine is the only way to avoid the regrab at earlier % then it puts Wolf in a not great spot as well since he can get punished for shining and that will bring him closer to the "doesn't matter lol CG" %'s

 

[Rizen]

You cannot turn around regrab Falco or Wolf, the CG works because you are grabbing them as they "land" and their body is closer to Wario before they settle on the ground. So if he snags them with the grab, it 100% has to be a buffered one, or you're wasting time turning around and walking forward and that's obvious/not the CG lol.

^If Wolf has to be grabbed as he lands why can't we tech it? Can Wario hit with a mostly/fully charged fart to finish the CG? That could mean an easy guaranteed KO for Wario if he grabbed with enough gas brewing.

I agree with xzx, CGs are a dumb game element and should be limited or tech-chases. Tech-chasing is good for the thrower and also gives the opponent a chance to escape if they're smart and unpredictable. But that's another topic.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Falco and Wolf are put in an "I am off balance" animation that is untechable. As far as I am aware, the only thing that Wario can finish the chaingrab with is a grab -> throw. The only moves fast enough to match or beat the speed of a buffered grab are Dash Attack (useless here) D-Tilt (suboptimal), and mostly-charged Waft (doesn't reach, as far as I know).

Chaingrabs are just another type of combo. There's no reason they should be limited, unless you feel that combos in general should be limited.

 

[DMG]

^If Wolf has to be grabbed as he lands why can't we tech it? Can Wario hit with a mostly/fully charged fart to finish the CG? That could mean an easy guaranteed KO for Wario if he grabbed with enough gas brewing.

Falco and Wolf are put in an "I am off balance" animation that is untechable. As far as I am aware, the only thing that Wario can finish the chaingrab with is a grab -> throw. The only moves fast enough to match or beat the speed of a buffered grab are Dash Attack (useless here) D-Tilt (suboptimal), and mostly-charged Waft (doesn't reach, as far as I know).

Chaingrabs are just another type of combo. There's no reason they should be limited, unless you feel that combos in general should be limited.

^^^^

Wario's Dthrow never places characters into a tumbling animation. They get a "lot" of stun, but no teching can occur no DI can occur etc. Fortunately for game balance, the throw does have scaling knockback (staling moves kicks in and allows the CG to go on for quite some time) and eventually even DK Bowser etc move far away enough or can DJ out of the CG.


Wario's CG on those 2 characters works because they stay close enough to him during the "stunned" animation that he can barely regrab say their foot sticking out. However once their stun is over and they have landed, you notice that they land outside of your regular grab range. Try it out on Falco: do a buffered grab, and then next time do a slow turn around grab without walking forward. He gets grabbed if it's buffered because it's like you snag his foot or his body before he settles down. After that, it doesn't work. Same with Wolf Falcon and Ganon, although on Falcon and Ganon you don't see them in the same "flipping stunned" animation as the spacies.

 

[Rizen]

CGs could have a big discussion topic on if they should be limited, heck it's Brawl lol. But they're legal and this isn't the place so that's that. Wario's CG does make an even MU +2 in his favor :/ .

How should Wario land a grab at the desired %s? He has a big window of damage %s after 59%. Specifically, does he have grab setups vs Wolf? Otherwise it's recognizing opportunities and not fishing too much.

 

[Dynomite]

Chaingrabs are just another type of combo. There's no reason they should be limited, unless you feel that combos in general should be limited.

not to change the topic or anything but does this theory include 's small step/ regular chaingrab? yes/no?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

not to change the topic or anything but does this theory include 's small step/ regular chaingrab? yes/no?

Yeah, all of that. I don't think it's good game design to make matchups revolve around a small number of tactics, but, that's a lot of what this game is, chaingrab or not. Dedede's small step and infinite chaingrabs only affect a small portion of the cast, and it's not like it makes the matchups literally unplayable.

Limiting tactics like that is the same thing as saying, "Let's arbitrarily buff a small percentage of the cast for selfish reasons." I've always been of the mind that it should only be considered if it benefits the entire game by a VERY significant amount.

 

[Rizen]

Limiting tactics like that is the same thing as saying, "Let's arbitrarily buff a small percentage of the cast for selfish reasons." I've always been of the mind that it should only be considered if it benefits the entire game by a VERY significant amount.

^You just described CGs. Brawl is so grab-based that there's nothing 'selfish' about saying a small % of the cast should have been designed to tech chase or not have as long a CG so 1 grab doesn't = 50%+ damage or an entire stock loss (not just by ICs) to several characters. Several MUs are +2 better for the character who can CG for that reason alone.
Brawl was designed with lots of flaws unfortunately and that's how it is but calling people 'selfish' for saying CGs (not 'tactics' which you changed the wording to) should have been limited is uncalled for.
_________________________________________
Sorry I don't want to spam this discussion.


Wario can be blaster-ed out of his bike unless he does a wheelie. The bike has it's own hurtbox and stop Wolf's transcendent blaster. Anytime Wario's not on his bike it acts like an item projectile and can be reflected but if Wario jumps off his Bike in the air and Wolf reflects it, it will count as reflected but keep traveling the same course.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Quit johning about cg's...they should definitely NOT be limited, but that doesn't make em less stupid lmao.

 

[Rizen]

Quit johning about cg's...they should definitely NOT be limited, but that doesn't make em less stupid lmao.

We're on the same page with these.

Brawl is so grab-based that there's nothing 'selfish' about saying a small % of the cast should have been designed to tech chase or not have as long a CG so 1 grab doesn't = 50%+ damage or an entire stock loss (not just by ICs) to several characters.

I didn't bring it up. Being called selfish and having my words twisted just p***es me off.

Edit
D***it, I knew this would happen. Everything's been said about the topic and I'm starting to spam too so I'll leave.
'Later

 

[Iota]

I suggest we move on to GW now.

xzx I have a suggestion for making the thread easier to go through. How about we put the pages we discussed a certain MU in the OP (E.g. MK was discussed from pages 4-9)I went through the thread to get the page numbers for the MUs we've discussed already so they'll be in spoilers if you want to use this idea.

Spoiler

Meta knight MU: 4-9 Diddy MU: 10-14 Snake MU: 14-16 Olimar MU: 16-20 ICs MU: 21-26 Falco MU: 26-32 Marth MU: 32-34 Pika MU: 34-37 ZSS MU: 37-39 Lucario MU: 39-42 D3 MU: 42-45 Toon Link: 45-46 Wolf: 47-50

EDIT: I'll put that idea in this post too I guess. xzx can choose any method he wants but this thread needs an easier way to find the MU discussions :/

MK: post #60 Diddy: post #136 Snake: post #201 Olimar: post #237 ICs: post #301 Falco: post #386 Marth: post #467 Pika: post #508 ZSS: post #550 Lucario: post #577 D3: post #623 Toon Link: post #662 Wolf: post #690

 

[Croi]

Not the best method...I have my settings as 40 pages per post, so I see the current page we're on as page 19. It'd probably be better to link to the first post of the discussion rather than just say "it started here".

 

[DMG]

^^^^^^

post # solves everything

 

[Ishiey]

A bit late, but since y'all haven't started with G&W yet...

Delfino.

I said "neutral" you dolt but agreed that Delfino would be pretty good for Wolf, although better than Lylat/BF/Yoshis etc idk.

Really liked the stage discussion btw, great insight from DMG and Lord Chair in particular. I'd still prefer Lylat > BF though, for some reason I find it a lot easier to catch Wario there. The central opening in BF makes it a pain to trap Wario :/

Also, I'm with DMG, pretty sure fsmash won't land after the CG. I've always heard conflicting things on the start time, maybe it ends up too stale later on if you start it in the 20-30% range? And any idea at what % a fresh dthrow will no longer lead into a regrab?

 

[DMG]

Fsmash is like 8-9 frames, and since we're barely able to CG most people frame wise I'm a bit iffy on thinking it would work. Spacing wise it should be out of range as well on Falco Wolf etc. Fsmash sounds like it would only work on DK Bowser because of how huge they are, and/or how much longer it takes them to land.

G^W is either 0 or +1 for G^W. I do not think Wario really edges out here because he has to space horizontally vs G^W instead of vertically (Nair Uair Upb etc will eat through Wario above his head. If he relies on turtle Fair tilts or smashes to space against you, those tend to be more punishable.)

Just a MU of G^W controlling space, and whether Wario can bait him or punish his holes. The MU at a high level is probably easier for G^W because he controls the pace of the match, but G^W also gets punished harder for aerial mistakes. Trading with G^W almost always benefits Wario. Eating some of Bair, but getting a Dair or Uair on him, stuff like that makes big difference.

Oh yeah, if he starts throwing out smashes, you're better off not challenging him. You only challenge G^W up close when you have a frame advantage or an acceptable chance of backing off if your shot doesn't work. Trying to rush him down, only to eat smashes tilts etc will not work. Rush down loses bad to G^W if you are trying from neutral positions.

Please, for the love of God, ALWAYS FTHROW THIS CHARACTER! DAMAGE IS CRUCIAL ON HIM PEOPLE. FTHROW HIS *** EVERY TIME! Same thing with MK.

 

[xzx]

I suggest we move on to GW now.

xzx I have a suggestion for making the thread easier to go through. How about we put the pages we discussed a certain MU in the OP (E.g. MK was discussed from pages 4-9)I went through the thread to get the page numbers for the MUs we've discussed already so they'll be in spoilers if you want to use this idea.

Spoiler

Meta knight MU: 4-9 Diddy MU: 10-14 Snake MU: 14-16 Olimar MU: 16-20 ICs MU: 21-26 Falco MU: 26-32 Marth MU: 32-34 Pika MU: 34-37 ZSS MU: 37-39 Lucario MU: 39-42 D3 MU: 42-45 Toon Link: 45-46 Wolf: 47-50

EDIT: I'll put that idea in this post too I guess. xzx can choose any method he wants but this thread needs an easier way to find the MU discussions :/

MK: post #60 Diddy: post #136 Snake: post #201 Olimar: post #237 ICs: post #301 Falco: post #386 Marth: post #467 Pika: post #508 ZSS: post #550 Lucario: post #577 D3: post #623 Toon Link: post #662 Wolf: post #690

That's a really great idea (the latter one)! =) Cannot you do it for me, please? =D

EDIT: When you click on a "thingy" you actually only come to the post. You cannot scroll down...

@DMG: We haven't started discussing G&W yet! >:

Now we can do it.

 

[Lord Chair]

Fthrow until about 140 then stop using it until it kills at 170-180***

 

[xzx]

About the G&W MU: Seriously, G&W's disjointed range is a huuuuuuge pain for Wario. He outranges Wario in almost everything. G&W can kill Wario at early %. His smash attacks can easily KO right below 100%, fresh. And if you are over 100%/110%, you will always die from a fresh smash attack. Always. I mean, they are so ridiculously strong.

The good thing for Wario is that he can punish G&W hard sometimes. Wario should rely on punishing him, since touching G&W is kind of hard. G&W can just parachute himself in the air too (he does gain some invincibilty, right?), making it harder for us to punish him. Wario can nair through G&W's uptilt juggle at low %. Wafts are so important for us in this MU. We must get every damage on him as much as possible, and the same thing with killing. Seriously. Oh, tires are great sometimes against him, but he can just clean them up with his range and whatnot.

I have nothing more to add. G&W is so freaking scary and he is great at giving the opponent pressure with his immense KO power. I'll set this MU as -1 for Wario since how hard it is for Wario to touch G&W. G&W's range is making this MU in his favour, I think.

DMG: 0/-1
xzx: -1

 

[Croi]

I sort of like ftilt. Half-decent range and kill power. Otherwise yeah fthrow.

 

[DMG]

I recommend not using tires vs G&W, or if so using them sparingly because his glide toss is very good and is free setup into kill move or hit. Playing someone like Zac all the time is scary: don't give them tires lol.

Bad moves in this MU: Bite (it's not worth it, G&W isn't a character who needs to shield a lot vs Wario, and quick Upb's ruin it. Not to mention you get punished HARD for missing bite or being slightly out of range), throws that are not Fthrow, huge vertical spacing Dairs, falling Uairs, eh I think that pretty much covers it.

You CAN super armor Bair with Fsmash and hit him out of it, but G&W is usually retreating as/while the move is out so that's mostly moot. Ftilt also beats or trades with his Fair and Bair (tipped Fair might win), however Ftilt is not a move you can throw out constantly to stop him, and you can get punished with your fist sticking out after the hitbox is gone.

Avoid heavily platformed stages. BF is bad don't pick that. Best neutrals are prob FD SV Yoshi's (PS2 is bad, Lylat is ok but G&W probably likes it a bit more). Platforms limit your ability to approach G&W. He's not easy to approach in the first place.

CP's like RC and Brinstar do not make sense. RC is acceptable, but gives you no real edge vs G&W and it's more likely for Wario to get cornered, pressured, gimped or "screwed". Brinstar is straight up BAD because G&W gets the ability to shark and zone platforms, and he functions even better if the Lava comes up. Only edge you have is low % fart kills, his kill moves will also kill sooner though and you don't wanna die because his Smash lagged on something.

Stages like Frigate Halberd etc also do not make sense. Stick to solid starter stages that don't have platforms or stuff in the way. The more "janky" a stage is, the more potential for even something small to go wrong, and you don't want that.

 

[xzx]

I forgot to mention how G&W's nair completely screws Wario over.

And yeah, Wario's f-tilt is good in some scenarios against G&W.

And people, don't forget a ratio! =P

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

I have always thought of this as -1 for Wario. Our nair beats out Wario when he is above and our bair is pretty good horizontally as well. I'm not sure if you can bite any of our aerials if spaced well, but the risk would be a bit high either way. Tires mean fun times for us, glide toss is very far and dangerous. A possible problem for this matchup is your waft, which can kill us at like.. 50% or something.

Wario vs. GnW is 45/55 IMO. We barely win, just because of we can outrange pretty well, and kill early as well.

What grab releases can we get out of an air release? If we can even get an air release without a misclick on your part.

 

[DMG]

Air release, you get Smash attack. Including Usmash. G^W cannot guarantee it though

 

[ShadowAzure]

Game and Watch has the tools to keep us away and pick us off when we are in the air. We do have 3 things that can just wreck him though. Our grabs make for decent approach punishers, our up air is a beast (especially if it's fresh, we can't be too obvious with it or he'll dair it) and our fart kills him really super fast (as previously mentioned). I actually find myself using my ground game much more in this match up because we should lose in the air (nair city) most of the time.

With all that said, my GaW experience probably isn't the best. I've only really played against Uncle's off-hand GaW because he knows going Bowser on me is a bad idea.

I'll go with 0 here. We should be okay as long as we can control the stage and mix it up well enough.

 

[Triforce Of Chozo]

I think this MU is pretty much even, or maybe even +1 for Wario at times. G&W can shut down Wario's standard dair game with nair and uptilt, but I still don't think it's enough to make it in G&W's favor. Wario is just too hard to hit with smash attacks.
I summon Bassem

 

[xzx]

DMG: 0/-1
xzx: -1
MEOW1337KITTEH: -1
ShadowAzure: 0
Triforce of Chozo: 0

But Wario doesn't have just dair. G&W's nair shuts down Wario in the air, that's fair enough to wreck Wario, since he's an aerial character. Then he has other attacks that outranges Wario as well. There isn't a solid approach game for Wario, more than punishing (lol) and some fairs and nairs (and maybe grab too). And G&W can kill early like all the time - Wario has to wait about 1,5min to kill early. Damaging G&W isn't easy for us either, since he has that parachute up b and some quick ground moves. I can definetily not see this in +1 in Wario's favour. And someone better explain to me why this MU is even and not in G&W's favour.

 

[DMG]

You could argue even because of how similar the characters play out in the MU as far as hard punishes, trying to bait, killing about the same, etc. G^W does not wall Wario like Marth MK etc, but he covers common Wario tactics, approaches, and angles so well overall.

It's not a huge edge for G^W, I personally think he has the easier time in the MU than Wario. I'd describe the MU as annoying instead of "bad" tbh.

I used to think Wario would have an edge, but naw not anymore lol

 

[-LzR-]

In my experience Wario is one of the hardest characters to kill as G&W. I almost never land smashes but kill with a fair instead which isn't very strong.

 

[ShadowAzure]

DMG: 0/-1
xzx: -1
MEOW1337KITTEH: -1
ShadowAzure: 0
Triforce of Chozo: 0

But Wario doesn't have just dair. G&W's nair shuts down Wario in the air, that's fair enough to wreck Wario, since he's an aerial character. Then he has other attacks that outranges Wario as well. There isn't a solid approach game for Wario, more than punishing (lol) and some fairs and nairs (and maybe grab too). And G&W can kill early like all the time - Wario has to wait about 1,5min to kill early. Damaging G&W isn't easy for us either, since he has that parachute up b and some quick ground moves. I can definetily not see this in +1 in Wario's favour. And someone better explain to me why this MU is even and not in G&W's favour.

Well since I did say 0.

We just don't have dair in the sense of approaching him from above with it (which a lot of Warios seem to do out of habit). We can find other ways to use it. Just because Wario is an aerial character doesn't mean everything has to be done in the air. We have options on the ground that we can throw in. We have short hop options. We just need mix-ups. He only really shuts us down if we're too obvious. Nothing will just work directly for us, but G&W really doesn't fare much better in that department. He can't make a habit out of bairing us because if we get the read, we can still punish it. His smash attacks are fairly slow, so reading them isn't as difficult as his other options. In that sense dying super early is usually avoidable for us. We don't even need to land fart and KO him super early, but if we do, it does a LOT for us.

 

[LOE1]

yea, i say this mu is even

G&W's bair can be annoying at times, but a dair can punish that if read. G&W's nair is also annoying, but once again, if read, it can lead to a punish. how i see it: approach from the air against bair, stay on the ground vs nair. i dont see why people are so scared of G&W's smashes. sure they can kill early, but they are pretty easy to avoid. another annoying factor that no one has brought up is G&W's grabs. dont be too predictable of where you are going to tech with it(also, if you cant tech, you really need to know how to tech's his dgrab), because 1 read and you're getting smash attacked. aside from his smashes, which i find easy to avoid, i dont think G&W has much kill power on us. hiis fair is the only thing to worry bout really. his dair can kill, but it shouldnt happen alot. i still think wario has more kill potential than G&W. however, G&W's upb is prob the most annoying. i dunno what to do about that really.

once again, i call it even

 

[One-Up]

Our grabs **** Mr Game & Watch. Warios Uair beats GnW's Dair(if spaced well), killing GnW is easy they die at about 130% by an fsmash(even with bucket break but also depending on what part of the stage your on/at) I'd say this is in Warios favor +1 its basically just knowing the MU, thats all.