Villager Moveset and Analysis Thread (:

Plino

 
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I too have the demo, so just post whatever in the thread and I'm sure one of us will get on it.

If I had to guess, he can pocket one but then gets hit by the rest. Someone mentioned that he only pockets one drop from FLUDD too.
Just tested it right now. Pocket does indeed only work on one "unit" of water - and actually, that's how it is with multi-unit moves it seems. When pocketing Thunder, you only get one unit. And I'm thinking the same thing. Pocketing can be interrupted if you're hit while pocketing something and after the intangibility is done, causing you to drop (or just fail to pocket) whatever it is you were getting. So the issue is probably that the rest of the needles hit the Villager before they could finish Pocketing the one needle. On that subject, is PK Flash a multi-hit move? If so that would also explain why P1 says he wasn't able to pocket it.
 
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EarthBoundRules

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After cutting down Villager's tree, a peach fell out of it which I ate and recovered some %. I don't know if this has already been discovered.
 

Player-1

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If I had to guess, he can pocket one but then gets hit by the rest. Someone mentioned that he only pockets one drop from FLUDD too.
That makes sense, but I don't recall seeing him take damage or go into the putting in pocket animation, also I thought the put away pocket animation had invincibility frames so wouldn't he not get hit by the rest? I probably just saw it wrong and that's probably true, but just want to make sure
 

Plino

 
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After cutting down Villager's tree, a peach fell out of it which I ate and recovered some %. I don't know if this has already been discovered.
Yep, the tree has a very small chance of spawning a fruit rather than a piece of timber.

That makes sense, but I don't recall seeing him take damage or go into the putting in pocket animation, also I thought the put away pocket animation had invincibility frames so wouldn't he not get hit by the rest? I probably just saw it wrong and that's probably true, but just want to make sure
This is another thing I need to test. I know I've gotten interrupted out of my pocketing animation before, so I need to find out approximately when the intangibility ends and pocketing can be interrupted. I'll report back here sometime tomorrow.
 
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Forward throw has a set knockback

This means that no matter what percent your opponents at(until maybe like over 300% idk) they fly the same way they would at 0%, from fthrow.

Throws with set knockback are great in doubles
 

Bobojack

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Forward throw has a set knockback

This means that no matter what percent your opponents at(until maybe like over 300% idk) they fly the same way they would at 0%, from fthrow.

Throws with set knockback are great in doubles
Does fthrow have any followups?
 

Plino

 
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Forward throw has a set knockback

This means that no matter what percent your opponents at(until maybe like over 300% idk) they fly the same way they would at 0%, from fthrow.

Throws with set knockback are great in doubles
Are you sure about that? I just tested it at 0% and 300% and with no DI, at 0% the opponent was launched to around the centre of Battlefield-Omega, and at 300% with no knockback, they were launched to nearly past the far lip. It could just have a really low knockback multiplier, since the difference between 0% and 70% is very little.
 
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^that may be accurate. I was noticing small differences overall as I tried to get followups. I haven't seen the throw on more than the 5 demo characters anyway.

I don't think there are any legitimate follow ups, except for in doubles
 

Colin Steele

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So I'm spending a lot of time playing Villager, and as much as I love him, he doesn't feel competitive enough. Am I missing something? He just feels super gimmicky, and doesn't have a lot of truly reliable moves. His pocket is definitely awesome though, and I wonder if that's one of his best points. His slingshot is super dope too, but it doesn't seem to travel quite far enough. Does it scale in any way with distance?

Anyway, the engine is ****ing awesome, and this character is fun as hell, but I doubt I'll play him in Glory.
 

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So I'm spending a lot of time playing Villager, and as much as I love him, he doesn't feel competitive enough. Am I missing something? He just feels super gimmicky, and doesn't have a lot of truly reliable moves. His pocket is definitely awesome though, and I wonder if that's one of his best points. His slingshot is super dope too, but it doesn't seem to travel quite far enough. Does it scale in any way with distance?

Anyway, the engine is ****ing awesome, and this character is fun as hell, but I doubt I'll play him in Glory.
While there are more competitively viable characters, Villager is definitely useable. I've watched a couple of matches on various streams and Villager can hold his/her own when you've gotten them down.
 

Colin Steele

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While there are more competitively viable characters, Villager is definitely useable. I've watched a couple of matches on various streams and Villager can hold his/her own when you've gotten them down.
Did you by any chance notice any trends they were using? Combos? I've been trying to get the timing for down-throw FAIR and UAIR but it's tough. Do I have to ledge-guard?
 

deepseadiva

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I've been mostly impressed with her.

What I've found lacking is a strong CQC. She definitely controls space in an interesting way between Fair, Bair, Lloyd and Timber. Which might be enough in a zoning game like this. I just get totally nervous when my bubble is entered since the aerials are not... outstanding...
 

Colin Steele

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I've been mostly impressed with her.

What I've found lacking is a strong CQC. She definitely controls space in an interesting way between Fair, Bair, Lloyd and Timber. Which might be enough in a zoning game like this. I just get totally nervous when my bubble is entered since the aerials are not... outstanding...

I'm getting more comfortable with the turnip, but you're right, once some one gets in close it's tough to get them out. His down smash doesn't feel good to me, and the down tilt doesn't feel as good as Samus' so it's better to zone them around. When you get comboed on though, it's tough to catch up in damage. It's really easy to keep people off the stage though.

I found out about the Lloid edge-spam. It's pretty good, and keeps you relatively safe.

So after watching Pwing get a few good wins as Villager on the TLOC stream, I can see employing this sort of hyper-aggressive pushy play-style where he kind of forces the character in one direction towards the ledge, and then guards it with his repertoire of moves. The bowling ball is just so good against characters with better horizontal recovery than vertical - if you get some one using their up-B right below the edge, that side smash will knock them the **** out.

He's also made me realize that I need to work on spot-dodging. It's sinfully easy to read the moves which can be spot dodged, but I so habitually dodge to one of the sides.
 
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Villager is definitely a viable character lol

It's all about getting people off stage and edge guarding. You can chase off stage super deep because your recover is broken. Keep fairing and nairing until they're too far to recover.
Then you just go back because villager is never too far to recover
 

Calmsmasher

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Villager is definitely a viable character lol

It's all about getting people off stage and edge guarding. You can chase off stage super deep because your recover is broken. Keep fairing and nairing until they're too far to recover.
Then you just go back because villager is never too far to recover
His whole meta game in a nutshell.
 

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Did you by any chance notice any trends they were using? Combos? I've been trying to get the timing for down-throw FAIR and UAIR but it's tough. Do I have to ledge-guard?
Villager's grab is slow so I tend to avoid doing it at all, but that might change later on as I haven't played against other players yet. Villager's d-tilt is useful for leading into dairs/nairs, and I also start combos with jabs like I used to do with Falcon in Brawl. An example would be jab jab jab dtilt sh nair or I start slingshot woping off stage. Villager's recovery is ridiculous so you can chase people to the end of the screen and still come back. Villager's dair and uair are pretty quick too so you can pull stuff off like dtilt usmash and jump uair uair for example, but like I said dair and nair are pretty useful for shorthopping quick combos.
 
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Colin Steele

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Villager's grab is slow so I tend to avoid doing it at all, but that might change later on as I haven't played against other players yet. Villager's d-tilt is useful for leading into dairs/nairs, and I also start combos with jabs like I used to do with Falcon in Brawl. An example would be jab jab jab dtilt sh nair or I start slingshot woping off stage. Villager's recovery is ridiculous so you can chase people to the end of the screen and still come back. Villager's dair and uair are pretty quick too so you can pull stuff off like dtilt usmash and jump uair uair for example, but like I said dair and nair are pretty useful for shorthopping quick combos.
Yeah, I've effectively stopped using his grab for this reason. I'll try this jab combo though. Yeah at first I was uncomfortable with his recovery, but then I got used to the fact that unless I'm actually shooting off the stage at 100+++% I'm not going to die.

God the hype is so real. Two weeks is too long.
 

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Added Custom Moveset to OP (: And tried to clean up the look a little, but I think I failed ):

Does anyone know why there are multiple spoiler boxes for one section? Or how to fix it?
 

Plino

 
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I'll take a gander at it. I've had that happen to me before but I managed to work it out eventually, ha ha
 

Soshii

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I've been mostly impressed with her.

What I've found lacking is a strong CQC. She definitely controls space in an interesting way between Fair, Bair, Lloyd and Timber. Which might be enough in a zoning game like this. I just get totally nervous when my bubble is entered since the aerials are not... outstanding...
I don't know if it's my experience as a Falcon main in brawl, but I find Villager's CQC game quite decent. It's really easy to link jab to down tilt, and even easier to pull out a sh nair or sh dair really quick. Villager definitely has some combo potential, it's just the weird nature of the tilts and smashes that take some getting used to.
 

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I'm not a Villager pro by any means, but in the demo when getting pressured a lot up close I like to use retreating nair oos. I think it works really well.
 
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Has anyone figured out what causes Dash Attack's plant pot to either break or bounce once when hitting the ground? I can't seem figure out how to consistently get it to do what I want it to do...perhaps it's random like Turnips?

Also, this character is soooo much fun :) but the lack of range and utterly dreadful grab makes me sad :(
 

deepseadiva

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I don't know if it's my experience as a Falcon main in brawl, but I find Villager's CQC game quite decent. It's really easy to link jab to down tilt, and even easier to pull out a sh nair or sh dair really quick. Villager definitely has some combo potential, it's just the weird nature of the tilts and smashes that take some getting used to.
I've been warming up to it. Jab is excellent for sure.
 

Plino

 
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Has anyone figured out what causes Dash Attack's plant pot to either break or bounce once when hitting the ground? I can't seem figure out how to consistently get it to do what I want it to do...perhaps it's random like Turnips?

Also, this character is soooo much fun :) but the lack of range and utterly dreadful grab makes me sad :(
Whether or not the pot bounces seems to be random, though it seems to be more likely to smash upon the first impact.
 

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Not sure if it's been discussed here and I couldn't see it in the OP but Villagers Bowling Ball can be reflected (tested with Mario's cape in the demo).
 
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Whether or not the pot bounces seems to be random, though it seems to be more likely to smash upon the first impact.
Yea I've found that too - normally the pot will smash upon impact several times in a row and then bounce a few times in a row and then go back to smashing

Positive it's random

I don't think the second bounce has a hit box tho
Ah right so the difference is purely aesthetic? Thanks for confirming :)
 

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I guess I'll give my opinions of Villager's moves, since he's the character that I've used the most in the demo. Obviously some of this will probably change when I get the game and try him against other characters, but for now, I think I have a pretty good handle on him.

JAB: decent damage-racking attack and an okay way to get an opponent away from you briefly. It looks like it might be punishable at lower percents though.

FORWARD TILT: probably my favorite Villager tilt. It's very punishable on shield, especially if you're close to the opponent when you use it, but it has good range and comes out quickly.

UP TILT: I've got mixed feelings about this move. It's got great vertical range but rarely hits grounded foes. The first hit is escapable at lower percents, but the second hit is a kill move of sorts. Mainly I wish it had a better grounded hitbox.

DOWN TILT: honestly, I don't see all the hype for this move. It seems to have the same range as FTilt and according to the frame data doesn't end any quicker. It looks like it might have some IASA frames, which would mitigate that, but for the most part I find FTilt better, since it hits airborne foes easier. It's in the same boat as UTilt in that it can kill at high percents.

DASH ATTACK: pretty funny move that is somewhat flexible. The range on the pot and the fact that it can be thrown offstage for edgeguarding is nice. It seems punishable at lower percents if spaced improperly, though.

FORWARD SMASH: slow and short-ranged, but it has situational uses. It's easily the strongest of Villager's smash attacks, and since the bowling ball is a projectile, it can be dropped off the side of the stage to smack someone trying to recover. It can also hit someone who got to close to you and tried to interrupt the attack. It's not a guaranteed thing, though.

UP SMASH: I personally think this is a good move and ought to use it more. It has wonderful vertical range and is the easiest to land of Villager's smashes. With a little charge, it can often kill once percents climb over 100%. It can also start a few attack strings at low percents.

DOWN SMASH: Sadly, this move seems pretty bad. I thought it would be good when I first heard about it, but it seems really disappointing. It's hard to say how useful the burying mechanic will be, since all I've played against are CPUs and they break out extremely quickly. Hopefully there will be a use for the move, but for now I don't use it much.

GRABS AND THROWS: Villager's grab is slow to start and slow to end. It's a little longer than most grabs, but that doesn't redeem it much. Forward and Up Throws just seem to toss the opponent in that direction and it doesn't look like you can do much out of them. Down Throw might lead into a tilt or an aerial at lower percents. Back Throw is my favorite. It starts weak but grows to be strong with damage, and I've killed with it off the side of the stage a few times. All the throws do (comparatively) little damage.

NEUTRAL AERIAL: This move is really, really good. It comes out on frame 3, making it a great OoS option, it covers Villager's body, and is quite short. Short enough, in fact, to start another NAir before you land (and have the initial hitbox come out) or jump to lead into another aerial. It just has so many uses and is really easy to fit into a fight. My favorite Villager aerial.

FORWARD and BACKWARD AERIALS: Since these moves are basically the same, just faced differently, I'll group them together. FAir and BAir are useful spacing, damage racking, and gimping tools. They don't deal much damage, but they have great range. However, because they're weak, most attacks and projectiles can snuff the little pellet out before they connect (although the other projectile disappears, too). Still, they're an invaluable part of Villager's moveset and can interrupt someone charging a smash attack. They're slightly more effective in close combat thanks to added damage and knockback.

UP AERIAL: I don't use this a ton, since, like Villager's other "Up" moves, they mostly just have vertical hitboxes. It's still a good aerial, though; you can string a few of them together at low percents, and at higher percents it hits hard enough to kill off the top. It comes out reasonably fast, too.

DOWN AERIAL: This is another one of my preferred OoS options. Short Hop DAir has surprising range and (seems to?) autocancel, which is nice. It's also a great gimping tool. Hitting with the spiking hitbox is nice, but even if it's sourspotted, it knocks the foe at a very beneficial trajectory for gimping.

POCKET: Before the game came out, this move seemed really, really good. And it is! Just not quite as good as I expected. It helps him combat projectile spam a little bit, but since he can only hold one item at a time, it's not gamebreaking. Being able to pull out a projectile at will, rather than just reflect it on-point, is really fun. It can make for some dangerous setups if the absorbed move is strong, such as Thunder, Charge Shot, or Mega Man's FSmash. The Pocket Custom I'm most interested in trying is Garden, to give it more utility and to give Villager another way to build damage.

LLOID ROCKET: I read a post in which someone said that Villager players will get better when they stopped using this move as a crutch. To be fair, I kind of agree with him. Lloid Rocket is strong and it reaches far, but it's slow. Villager is VERY vulnerable as he launches the rocket. Any projectile seems to stop the rocket, too, making it less effective against foes with a strong projectile game. It doesn't hurt to send one of these out every once in a while, though. The mostly horizontal trajectory allows Villager to restrict the way his opponent will go, allowing him to do more of what he pleases. The fact that the rocket is invulnerable before it actually starts moving is a great plus, too. It can't be destroyed or reflected during that period, and the delay can make for some frustrating mindgames. I also like how Villager is able to launch one without putting him into fallspecial. I may try the Pushy Lloid variant, but I can see the Liftoff Lloid having uses, too.

BALLOON TRIP: I like Balloon Trip. I'm no stranger to characters with ridiculous recoveries (although the reverse is also true, but that's irrelevant at the moment), but it seems a little redundant in a game where grabbing the ledge is easier than ever. I'm a little worried that some players will use this move to circle camp. Anyway, being able to recover from virtually anything barring a direct KO is nice. Not much else to say about the move, except that popping the balloons is harder than it looks. I'm hoping the Extreme Balloon Trip custom will make this move more of a threat than it already is.

TIMBER: Hoo boy, this is probably the most versatile move in Villager's moveset, although most of it revolves around the tree. I was skeptical of the move when I first learned about it, but now I can't imagine Villager without it. It can be used to hinder projectiles, slow opponents, deal damage, and, last but not least, kill. Sometimes I feel that it's better to not let the tree grow immediately. Since you can move while using the watering can, it's possible to make the tree grow underneath somebody in the middle of battle. The pushback you get from it helps keep you safe, too. The axe is a wonderful weapon in and of itself. It essentially gives you a quick smash attack anywhere you are or what you're doing. Attacking in the air or out of a dash is a wonderful feeling. The final portion of the attack, the falling tree, is also surprisingly good. It has massive range and its hitbox lingers longer than you would expect just by looking at it. It's telegraphed, but make a good read with it and you can easily be up a stock. I haven't found many uses for the wood block that comes from chopping the tree down, but I know from using R.O.B. in Brawl that having an item like that can give you lots of options. I'll probably try the Timber Counter custom, but I do really enjoy the base version.
 
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Rakurai

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Did they change the priority mechanics in Smash 4?

Because I'm fairly positive I saw an AI Pikachu go straight through my Timber and cancel out its hitbox with his bair of all things (It made the blue circle).

It would be kind of lame if you could protect yourself from it while off the stage by simply hitting it with the aerial of your choosing.
 
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Do you guys know which moves are good to use when you're getting juggled? I've only found safety in DAir SOMETIMES due to some characters out prioritizing it. I've mostly just went off and under the stage and Balloon Tripped back to the ledge. Any ideas?
 

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Do you guys know which moves are good to use when you're getting juggled? I've only found safety in DAir SOMETIMES due to some characters out prioritizing it. I've mostly just went off and under the stage and Balloon Tripped back to the ledge. Any ideas?
I think air dodging is your best bet there, or nairing if you can catch them before hitting you. It has decent priority and comes out pretty fast.
 

Plino

 
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Okay so I've found that the way to maximise Fairs coverage is to SH, Fair a bit after the you've started falling from the apex, then begin to fastfall during the pulling back SFX. You can usually get the shot to begin around a height of Mario's head or even around his feet. But you gotta be careful about starting the Fair too late, or you'll just end it without getting the hitbubble out or autocancelling.

Also, it seems that the strong hit of Nair can trip around 20%. I need to do more testing.

Also also, Bthrow does indeed have high knockback growth, so it'll start to catch up to Uthrow's knockback around 80% on characters in the 90-100 weight tier.
 
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Player-1

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Does anyone know/have any theories on why inputting riding the rocket right next to the edge of the stage result in stupid knockback? I tried doing it with the tree and couldn't get it to work which I find very odd.
 

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Does anyone know/have any theories on why inputting riding the rocket right next to the edge of the stage result in stupid knockback? I tried doing it with the tree and couldn't get it to work which I find very odd.
I think they mentioned that it's because the gradual damage/knockback is added together when done inside the ledge.
 

Player-1

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Ya I'm just wondering why it only seems to work on the edge and nothing else, like not a any character or tree or anything else (at least from what I can tell)
 

Soshii

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After playing alot of 1v1 matches with a few buddies of mine, I think I can say the bowling ball is way more viable than I previously anticipated. Using the tree worked surprisingly well too. We played many hours, enough time for them to get accustomed to the way the tree works and the bowling ball, and they could still get outplayed by both of those things with alot of mindgaming and reading. I think major problems Villager with more experience is that characters that are punish-centric and aggressive such as Little Mac and Falcon are hard to counter. Villager's shield grab is almost unusable due to the frames inbetween the net coming out and unshielding further leaving him/her vulnerable to the mentioned characters. They move incredibly fast and are hard to space. Other bad matchups include other characters that can out-camp Villager that also have decent recoveries. In terms of doubles matches, I found alot of enjoyment being on a team with Duck Hunt Dog. The chemistry works surprisingly well, and the two characters can play off of eachother.
 

kackamee

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Agreed. Villager feels really solid. He doesn't seem to have any glaring issues with his kit. I think he requires a lot of mindgaming to be truly effective though, which can be a bit hard at times, especially in high pressure situations.
 

Bobojack

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The problem is imo that he has poor kill options that depend on reads. He only has his bowlingball with reeaaally poor range and his tree. I get most of my kills with edgeguarding with his freakin AWESOME nair. Best edgeguard move. I also like throwing the woodchips from the tree at my opponent and pocket it again when it bounces off. My opponents always get confused by it. ; P
 
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