Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[LightLV]

Her fastest ground normal is 8 frames. How is that as you put it "a decent poke game"?

Best jab? Could you elaborate? It's frame 8. I know it's disjointed and has range, but wouldn't Mac, or Falcon, or Lucas be better?

sigh....didn't think I would have actually say i wasn't really "srs" with the word "best".

Her jab has alot of range, used correctly it will outright beat alot of attacks. There are plenty of people with significantly faster jabs who will get shut down by its range.

In fact, people questioning why her jab is good based on its on-active frame data probably has alot to do with why some people think she's worse than samus.

 

[san.]

The thing with Samus is.. Charge shot is really good. Practically beats all other projectiles head to head. Shield cancellable while charging and has instant release while charging. Samus' jab1 is good in a vacuum.

After Gunner's missile endlag was reduced by 10, I feel that such a change to Samus' missile endlag is all she really needs other than hitbox and downB fixes. It's that noticeable. For Samus, she probably wouldn't need as much of an endlag reduction, maybe 5 frames, then increase missile damage.

 

[Deathcarter]

You can still skip around and look at the portraits. ESAM notes that the top 5ish of bottom 10 are still viable, but it's rough for them. The bottom 5 are just dead to him in viability. He said something like 50 of the 55 are viable.

Spoiler: ESAM's tier list of 1.1.0

Top Tier
1. Sheik
2. Pikachu. Bias.
3. Luigi
4. Fox
5. Rosalina & Luma
6. Ness
7. Yoshi
8. ZSS
9. Sonic
10. Mario

High Tier
11. Meta Knight
12. ROB
13. Captain Falcon
14. Villager
15. The Pits
16. Wario
17. Robin
18. Diddy Kong
19. Lucario
20. Ike

Nobody Gives a Damn Tier
21-44. Too murky to deal with according to ESAM.
Low Tier
45. Bowser Jr.
46. Palutena
47. Duck Hunt
48. Shulk
49. Little Mac
50. King Dedede
51. Lucina
52. Mewtwo
53. Jigglypuff
54. Dr. Mario
55. Zelda

I'll edit in the 1-20 he made as well.

Diddy Kong's placing is absolutely jarring. I don't think even ZeRo as good as he is would have 3-0 Mr. R's Shiek at EVO GF's with Diddy or would have even switched to Diddy in the first place if he was legitimately a borderline viable low high tier character. Game ain't that balanced.

 

[LightLV]

The thing with Samus is.. Charge shot is really good. Practically beats all other projectiles head to head. Shield cancellable while charging and has instant release while charging. Samus' jab1 is good in a vacuum.

After Gunner's missile endlag was reduced by 10, I feel that such a change to Samus' missile endlag is all she really needs other than hitbox and downB fixes. It's that noticeable. For Samus, she probably wouldn't need as much of an endlag reduction, maybe 5 frames, then increase missile damage.

I think most characters with projectiles would murder Samus in a projectile war. Her super missiles don't kill on the edge at 200%, they need alot more than a damage increase. Priority on her projectiles are pretty terrible too. Mines dont explode on contact with enemies either.

Link can standblock chargeshot and his bombs probably clash or outright defeat every projectile that isnt full-charged CS, with a fraction of the endlag or startup. Mario/Luigi can simply approach with their projectiles. Mario has a reflector. Space animals have reflectors, Falco's interrupts.

I'm not sure, but from what i've seen, i wouldn't be surprised if Duck Hunt's can eats samus' chargeshot.

In fact if i had to choose, i'd take pretty much anyone's neutralB projectile over chargeshot. It's STRONG, yeah, but it isn't anywhere close to good enough to warrant her moveset being the way it is.

Edit: And to be COMPLETELY honest....it's really not even all that strong, again for the weight it's given. I've been popped with that fullcharge over 100% and lived on plenty occasions.

 

[Gawain]

You can still skip around and look at the portraits. ESAM notes that the top 5ish of bottom 10 are still viable, but it's rough for them. The bottom 5 are just dead to him in viability. He said something like 50 of the 55 are viable.

Spoiler: ESAM's tier list of 1.1.0

Top Tier
1. Sheik
2. Pikachu. Bias.
3. Luigi
4. Fox
5. Rosalina & Luma
6. Ness
7. Yoshi
8. ZSS
9. Sonic
10. Mario

High Tier
11. Meta Knight
12. ROB
13. Captain Falcon
14. Villager
15. The Pits
16. Wario
17. Robin
18. Diddy Kong
19. Lucario
20. Ike

Nobody Gives a Damn Tier
21-44. Too murky to deal with according to ESAM.
Low Tier
45. Bowser Jr.
46. Palutena
47. Duck Hunt
48. Shulk
49. Little Mac
50. King Dedede
51. Lucina
52. Mewtwo
53. Jigglypuff
54. Dr. Mario
55. Zelda

I'll edit in the 1-20 he made as well.

I definitely don't think Lucina is THAT bad. She's bad, but not THAT bad. I also think that Ike should be a little higher, and Roy should be above Ike. I actually like his top 10 though, for hte most part. Maybe I'd move Fox down 2 though.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi gives a damn when faced against Charge Shot. Half charged eats Fireballs and he can't move a flipping inch in the air.

 

[Mario766]

Roy is definitely not above Ike.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Luigi gives a damn when faced against Charge Shot. Half charged eats Fireballs and he can't move a flipping inch in the air.

Can you tell us about the Samus Luigi matchup? Because people are putting it in Samus' favor for the sole reason that ESAM beat a Luigi with Samus once.
What's the matchup actually like?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I definitely don't think Lucina is THAT bad. She's bad, but not THAT bad. I also think that Ike should be a little higher, and Roy should be above Ike. I actually like his top 10 though, for hte most part. Maybe I'd move Fox down 2 though.

Why should Roy be above Ike?

 

[Gawain]

Roy is definitely not above Ike.

Is it time for round 2: electric boogaloo? I don't think so. Not going to start this again, I'm about to go to work, again, and I can't waste time "debating" this, again. Last time no one even addressed a third of the things I talked about and instead focused on wordplay, so I'm not getting into this again lmao.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So dabuz posted his top tiers.

https://youtu.be/t3hf4qwzVw8

I haven't gotten the chance to watch yet.

 

[Ffamran]

Disclaimer: I'm not Shaya; I suck at stuff like this.

Let's nitpick somethings, shall we? In each segment, I put an asterisk which is kind of useless since I'm going to talk about them, but whatever... Anyway, please note this: the DLC characters, Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy, and Ryu are fairly new and as such, they don't have the development as the other characters. I'd say they're about 50% behind everyone. Asterisks will also mark these 4 regardless if there's nothing we can nitpick about them. Also, do note: the current meta. The current meta as of now has Luigi dominating as did the "previous" meta had Diddy dominating. Things change and as of now, certain characters are in certain places because of their current performance. Still, at the same time, we can discuss their current placements and predict their future placements.

ESAM's patch 1.1.0 tier list is as follows and do not as he himself stated, it's in his opinion. There will be bias *cough*Pikachu*cough, there will be misinformation, there will be good information, there will be poor and good impressions, etc. Remember what region he's from, try to find out who are the characters being played well and poorly in his region. For example, ESAM lives close enough where a phenomenal Ike player, Ryo, lives. In contrast, MD/VA doesn't really have a good Ike. So, be accepting of his views and the fact he's another human who's prone to errors and being judgemental like us.

Spoiler: ESAM's patch 1.1.0 tier list

Top Tier
1.
2. *
3. *
4.
5.
6. *
7. *
8. *
9.
10. *

High Tier
11.
12.
13.
14.
15. /*
16.
17. *
18. *
19. *
20.

Nobody Gives a Damn Tier
21-44. Too murky to deal with according to ESAM. These include in alphabetical order:
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.
27. *
28.
29.
30. *
31. *
32. *
33.
34.
35.
36.
37. *
38. *
39. *
40. *
41. *
42. *
43. *

Low Tier
45. *
46.
47.
48. *
49. *
50.
51. *
52. *
53. *
54. *
55.

Before we go through the tiers, the special snowflakes. These are characters that people say are very "technical", they need "time" to be understood, and they're "difficult" characters. These characters are, in my opinion, Little Mac, Peach, Ryu, and Shulk. Little Mac? Why him? You can spam dash attack and win. Yeah, on For Glory... Anyway, Little Mac is that kind of character where you really need to play on point to make use of him. With TAS or somehow a miraculously perfect play, Little Mac would never have to leave the stage involuntarily, Little Mac will never have to deal with knockback unless he's grabbed, and Little Mac will be scoring hit after hit, kill after kill, and KO Punch after KO Punch. In theory, a boxer being able to dodge everything you throw at him and hitting you all the time would be a monster. That only happens when one of the best boxers goes against a clearly shouldn't be there newbie. Peach, Ryu, and Shulk all have inputs that set them apart: Peach's float, Ryu's traditional fighting game inputs, and Shulk's Monado Arts. Apparently, by controlling those perfectly, they're the best characters in the game. Here's the thing: nobody's perfect. Either these characters will prove themselves or they'll join the bottom crew because they're just a waste of time. Funny enough, I also believe Sheik to be one of the special snowflakes. You really do need to understand her to do anything, but the difference is Sheik can get away with a lot more than those 4 will ever dream of.

Note:I'm not going to go over everything, but I will comment on some.
The characters I've marked in the top tier are: Pikachu, Luigi, Ness, Yoshi, ZSS, and Mario. In the high tier: the Pits, Robin, Diddy Kong, and Lucario. For the top tiers: Luigi. He's good, all right? But the question is for how long? Remember Fox and Bowser? Fox was seen as bad until people figured that Blaster wasn't everything and Bowser was seen as good until people learned to deal with him. As of now, Luigi is doing pretty damn well, but he could drop, he could end up where Captain Falcon is like in Melee. Being the worst best character is still a good thing. Yoshi... I'd rather let Slush handle that...

For high tier: the Pits. Dude, these 2 along with Mario are among the best at being jack of all trades. That means not of a lot will hurt them nor benefit them. They can handle a ton of situations, but unfortunately not a lot of people play them. There's like Nairo and Earth and that's it. Robin, does having a Mr. Game & Watch percent sensitive kill setup do enough? Having lower end lag on the Thunder Tome helps, but Robin still has issue with mobility and recovery. Are the changes to Robin enough to justify a 17th spot? I don't know much about Robin, but 17th seems stretching it. Diddy... Dude dominated and still dominates with select players such as Angel Cortes and MVD. He's still good, but high tier?

In the hodgepodge tier: Greninja, Lucas, Marth, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Peach, Roy, Ryu, Samus, Toon Link, and Wii Fit Trainer. Hodgepodge: egh...

In the low tier: Bowser Jr., Shulk, Little Mac, Lucina, Mewtwo, Jigglypuff, and Dr. Mario. Low tier: Bowser Jr. and Lucina. Bowser Jr. doesn't seem to be doing that badly, but like Mario, he only has 1 notable player bringing in results. Is it because people don't know how to exploit him or is he better than ESAM thinks he is? Lucina is yes, a lesser Marth, but with people saying Marth could break into the low high tier, shouldn't Lucina just trail behind him in mid tier instead of bottom 10?

 

[Gawain]

So dabuz posted his top tiers.

https://youtu.be/t3hf4qwzVw8

I haven't gotten the chance to watch yet.

Sheik, ZSS, Mario, Fox, Ness and Diddy above Rosalina? I'm smelling a LOT of bias here lol. No way is Rosalina that far down.

Edit: and pikachu.

 

[san.]

I think most characters with projectiles would murder Samus in a projectile war. Her super missiles don't kill on the edge at 200%, they need alot more than a damage increase. Priority on her projectiles are pretty terrible too. Mines dont explode on contact with enemies either.

Less lag and more damage would provide:

-Comboability from more hitstun and less endlag
-Shield pressure/damage (Super missile already does like +5-6% extra shield damage, add more damage and it'd be even better)
-Better neutral since she can follow her missiles better

You underrate the value of both missile changes should they occur.

Priority on Samus charge shot is as good as it gets without it being transcendent.

Link can standblock chargeshot and his bombs probably clash or outright defeat every projectile that isnt full-charged CS, with a fraction of the endlag or startup. Mario/Luigi can simply approach with their projectiles. Mario has a reflector. Space animals have reflectors, Falco's interrupts.

I'm not sure, but from what i've seen, i wouldn't be surprised if Duck Hunt's can eats samus' chargeshot.

In fact if i had to choose, i'd take pretty much anyone's neutralB projectile over chargeshot. It's STRONG, yeah, but it isn't anywhere close to good enough to warrant her moveset being the way it is.

Edit: And to be COMPLETELY honest....it's really not even all that strong, again for the weight it's given. I've been popped with that fullcharge over 100% and lived on plenty occasions.

You'd use it in response to the opponent's projectile where charge shot can win. You can still use charge shot whenever you want and it comes out in like 15ish frames or something. Ex. If mario ever throws a fireball out, you just charge shot him. It keeps him in check. Reflectors typically have quite a bit of commitment to them.

Link's shield is a laughable argument. You can also just press R and shield all projectiles, too, but even on power shield you're stuck for a fair amount of time.

Link's bomb does cancel it out since it's considered an item and has HP, but it has much less range and a time limit. Samus just has to not use charge shot or charge again from a distance. Charge shot will go through/beat side and neutral B I believe.

Charge shot can't go through DHD's stuff, but the projectiles are laggy anyways. What beats charge shot and doesn't just lose or cancel?

Fully charged deals 25% and kills DHD in training mode default location at 80%. That's good enough (Vectoring will counteract rage for the most part I think). The options out of shield cancel are good and it has quick startup. Your 100% data is anecdotal and likely missing details.

 

[TriTails]

Can you tell us about the Samus Luigi matchup? Because people are putting it in Samus' favor for the sole reason that ESAM beat a Luigi with Samus once.
What's the matchup actually like?

I have getting bodeied by every Samus I face. I face this player whom I beat every of his characters, but when he pulled out Samus I just stand no chance.

I really need to learn the MU. My playsytle is centered around 'SH, bait and punish' so it is easily beaten by just charging a Charge Shot and slapping it to my face. Luigis don't believe Samus beats Luigi though.

I can't say much about the MU, but I do know Missiles are practically useless and we combo her kinda hard due to weight and floatiness. If we manage to get into Fireballs range without having her Charge Shot half charged then we can out-camp her. Z-air sucks for Luigi though.

But damn. I just can't twist my head whenever she has a Charge Shot in bay. Which is funny considering I'm the type of player who bodyblocks Sheik's needles and don't give too much damned respect. But when she has her Charge Shot ready it's legit scary because getting hit = hell because getting CS thrown to your face everytime you land on the ground.

 

[bc1910]

I don't agree with all of ESAM's bottom 10 but I didn't agree with the rest of the tier list either so not much surprise.

The bottom 10 did make a lot more sense than the top 20. His bias shone through before with his placements of PIkachu, Luigi and Diddy, but his bottom 10 was at least well explained. Some serious underrating of Bowser Jr and Lucina but I can see why everyone else is there. I still think Mac could go either way but I guess as people get better at actually getting Mac off the stage, he'll end up like a more exploitable Lucario.

 

[warionumbah2]

I'm actually shocked that Dabuz knows about Salena/Sarena.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Sheik, ZSS, Mario, Fox, Ness and Diddy above Rosalina? I'm smelling a LOT of bias here lol. No way is Rosalina that far down.

Edit: and pikachu.

I have all those characters above her except Ness. You're probably overrating her. She has a lot of bad MUs.

 

[Jabejazz]

I still think Mac could go either way but I guess as people get better at actually getting Mac off the stage, he'll end up like a more exploitable Lucario.

And as people get better at PP and abusing his ludicrous frame data, he could skyrocket into a "I thrash on characters with **** neutral" barrier kind of character. He probably sorta kinda already is. As you said, it can go both ways. The main issue probably comes from being the character affected the most by counterpick stages.

Disclaimer: I'm not Shaya;

Stopped reading right there.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Dabuz's Tier list... *sigh* Where do I even begin.

Mario Top 5? Yeah he has results. But that doesn't mean he is so good to actually take down Zero Suit Samus, Sonic, Sheik or even Captain Falcon. His attacks are good and doesn't lose hard to anyone but he just can't deal with Sheik's pressure and Zero Suit Samus kill moves. Pikachu can also give him trouble. Diddy Kong in his tier list just for results? Diddy's still good but as I said, he's not in the level of the top tiers anymore. I do accept Ness. Ness is definetely a Top tier character. Top 5 easily. Results, pretty good frame data, good attacks and can kill ridicuosly early. Fox is also a very good character. But he should be in number 7 or something like that. Luigi has been getting nerfed and his results although good don't justify how he loses to other lower characters. (Megaman, Samus, I don't know if he loses to Pacman though. He definetly loses to Villager). And Sonic at the bottom? Yeah he has been getting nerfed but he can still kill you pretty easily with Forward Smash, Spring into Up Air at the top of the screen and Up Smash.

I think this is how I actually expected his list.

1.-

2.-

3.-

4.-

5.-

6.-

7.-

8.-

9.-

10.-

Remember, this is how I expected his tier list. Not how I look at it. Although it's pretty close to my opinion of the top tiers though. Only change Sonic to place 6, Fox to place 7 and Villager to place 8.

 

[Zeriora]

Seems legit ESAMS tier list, but Meta knight should be top tier, Yes, i said it, top tier.

 

[Gawain]

I have all those characters above her except Ness. You're probably overrating her. She has a lot of bad MUs.

You're gonna have to convince me on that one bud, her results and everything else say she's top 5. Most of the top players put her there.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

There comes a point where I wonder if Diddy is actually not that great and if it's really ZeRo's work showing. I can't help but wonder that if it's just ZeRo or not. What if ZeRo was a day 1 Greninja main? Lets say his Greninja takes nationals and locals and whatnot (because it's freaking ZeRo). Don't act like that wouldn't change our top 5s and 10s. But at that point you start to ask yourself: what is a tier list. Results or actual character potential? In reality it's a bit of both but we just gotta keep this in mind before we have intense debates over if X is above Y or if X is top 5 or top 7.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You're gonna have to convince me on that one bud, her results and everything else say she's top 5. Most of the top players put her there.

She has bad MUs vs Sheik ZSS pikachu and MK. Marth is probably a -1 MU as well. Also these match ups force you off of Rosalina. Her MU with Mario is probably even.

She has good rep however you should watch her vs some of the characters I pointed out. Those are pretty bad MUs for a top tier to have.

I don't think people have taken into account dabuz not using Rosalina vs Nairo. The same will probably be true if he comes across Esam Zero or Mr. R. But I can't speak for Dabuz. I just look at the trends of his matches.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Seems legit ESAMS tier list, but Meta knight should be top tier, Yes, i said it, top tier.

You say that like it's some big claim and yet almost everyone is blindly riding on that bandwagon.

 

[Illuminose]

She has bad MUs vs Sheik ZSS pikachu and MK. Marth is probably a -1 MU as well. Also these match ups force you off of Rosalina. Her MU with Mario is probably even.

She has good rep however you should watch her vs some of the characters I pointed out. Those are pretty bad MUs for a top tier to have.

I don't think people have taken into account dabuz not using Rosalina vs Nairo. The same will probably be true if he comes across Esam Zero or Mr. R. But I can't speak for Dabuz. I just look at the trends of his matches.

Rosa does fine against Sheik. How are you forced off Rosa to fight Sheik?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Rosa does fine against Sheik. How are you forced off Rosa to fight Sheik?

Rosa does fine against sheik's that don't know the MU. You can run the MU all you want plenty of people run head first into bad MUs.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

She has bad MUs vs Sheik ZSS pikachu and MK. Marth is probably a -1 MU as well. Also these match ups force you off of Rosalina. Her MU with Mario is probably even.

She has good rep however you should watch her vs some of the characters I pointed out. Those are pretty bad MUs for a top tier to have.

I don't think people have taken into account dabuz not using Rosalina vs Nairo. The same will probably be true if he comes across Esam Zero or Mr. R. But I can't speak for Dabuz. I just look at the trends of his matches.

It could be that Dabuz isn't comfortable in the MUs.

 

[Jabejazz]

It could be that the best Rosalina player in the world isn't comfortable in the MUs.

Seriously.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It could be that Dabuz isn't comfortable in the MUs.

He's so uncomfortable with his Rosalina that he used pikachu and mario....

 

[Wintropy]

For high tier: the Pits. Dude, these 2 along with Mario are among the best at being jack of all trades. That means not of a lot will hurt them nor benefit them. They can handle a ton of situations, but unfortunately not a lot of people play them. There's like Nairo and Earth and that's it.

This is why I think it's good to keep an eye on the Pits' future. Word of god says the angel boys are pretty much immune to balance patches (save for an unexpected buff in 1.1.0); in a game where a character's viability can be reassessed every two months, that's a decent way to be.

There's consistency to the characters which I hope more top-level players continue to explore. You know where you stand with the Pits.

 

[Trifroze]

I can see how Rosalina could have enough weaknesses to not be top 5, but on the other hand every character in this game seems to have their share of flaws and Dabuz might be naturally exaggerating Rosalina's simply because he's focused on her the most. Character flaws really start to show when you start using a certain character and genuinely learning about them and their playstyle, setups and what they struggle against. If you truly put time to only a few characters, especially ones with some polarizing weaknesses, you will most likely overestimate their weaknesses because you're unaware of the weaknesses other characters have. Just a thought worth mentioning regarding the subject of personal tier lists.

 

[Nobie]

So earlier today I asked why people can't agree on what it means to have a good neutral. The response was, "We'll X Character can't approach." But is approach synonymous with neutral or is it something more complex and abstract? Food for thought.

 

[Djent]

Of 's bad MUs, which ones are solidly 6:4 in the other character's favor?

My hunch is that and maybe would make the cut. I don't think // are that bad (maybe "45:55 / -1"). I can't see these other characters "forcing" the Rosa player to pick a secondary, but If I'm right about Sheik/ZSS it might not matter anyway and she could still end up outside of top 5.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Of 's bad MUs, which ones are solidly 6:4 in the other character's favor?

My hunch is that and maybe would make the cut. I don't think // are that bad (maybe "45:55 / -1"). I can't see these other characters "forcing" the Rosa player to pick a secondary, but If I'm right about Sheik/ZSS it might not matter anyway and she could still end up outside of top 5.

Lol the mk mu is really bad if more MK's pop up there's going to be less Rosalina. Umm Falln considers MK her worst MU.

@ Trifroze I think dabuz has been pretty realistic about his assessments on Rosa and they've been fairly consistent also. I don't think there's a bias from him. He considered the sheik MU a lot worse before any other Rosa. I think it's fairly important to take note of what he's saying. Rosalina's mu aren't as good as others claim and his success with her despite the poor MU is rather ridiculous.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Seriously.

He's human. What do you think?

 

[Trifroze]

Lol the mk mu is really bad if more MK's pop up there's going to be less Rosalina. Umm Falln considers MK her worst MU.

@ Trifroze I think dabuz has been pretty realistic about his assessments on Rosa and they've been fairly consistent also. I don't think there's a bias from him. He considered the sheik MU a lot worse before any other Rosa. I think it's fairly important to take note of what he's saying. Rosalina's mu aren't as good as others claim and his success with her despite the poor MU is rather ridiculous.

He's probably right. The strongest argument at the moment is results, and Dabuz is pretty much the only Rosalina getting big ones. Haven't checked SHI-G stuff for Rosalinas though (if there are any). On the other hand, Pikachu only has Esam, Mario only has Ally and so on (maybe again Japan has some more though).

 

[FullMoon]

Man is it "Top players make tier lists" season or something?

Abadango, ESAM, Dabuz, who's next?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

One thing that should be noted is that these lists are mostly based off personal experience from the players. For example, Robin is Top 20 in ESAM's tier list due to him having trouble against @Dathx, along with him getting results in Florida.

It's good to remember this while discussing as it may explain some of the more controversial placements.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Re: Rosalina's matchups, a weird thing to keep in mind is that, in certain circumstances, Luma can actually work against her. Which sounds counterintuitive as hell, but its mere presence as a hittable entity means Rosalina is basically always on the receiving end of hitbox extensions (Waft in particular is a big one she has to watch for), and since Luma can't shield or dodge she's also in the unique position of being unable to spotdodge and punish moves like Flip Jump or Bouncing Fish, since they'll just hit Luma and bounce away regardless. (This also applies to other attacks that "activate" on hit, like PK Fire.)