Official Veterans Discussion

[Kirbeh]

Doc doesn't have a veterinarian license?

iirc he has no certification of any kind

 

[P.Kay]

In terms of , I think his moveset is fine (then again I am a fan of Wario Land).

It's kind of a guilty pleasure but I would like to see 's Final Smash from Brawl back (it's really funny), even though I like the current one better...

 

[Kirbeh]

In terms of , I think his moveset is fine (then again I am a fan of Wario Land).

It's kind of a guilty pleasure but I would like to see 's Final Smash from Brawl back (it's really funny), even though I like the current one better...

I'd actually like to see the old dance as a stage taunt/easter egg. Add a Kirby stage with some Waddle Dees and others in the background, and if you get it the taunt off with Dedede, they all dance with him. And maybe even make it the Kirby dance if you do it with Kirby. Don't know what they'd do for MK tho.

 

[domriver]

Vets? Bring back Solid Snake, Ice Climbers, and Wolf (new move set) Pokemon Trainer was a cool idea. im indifferent about that character returning.

 

[ryuu seika]

I personally think that is we DO bring back a veterinarian it should be popo not ice Climbers because of the software limitations. So to solve this just put popo in . This will also solve the most hated strategy in melee and brawl.........WOBBLING

What's the point? It cuts the main selling point of the character(s).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

What's the point? It cuts the main selling point of the character(s).

People said the same thing about Sheik, Zero Suit Samus and Pokemon Trainer before we got .

 

[ryuu seika]

And I still say it about the first two of those. Charizard is actually relevant on his own and is still a unique character without a gimmick (better if anything). Sheik is a decent moveset but just not important anymore and she doesn't do anything someone else couldn't (main suggestion is Impa). Zero Suit Samus isn't even as unique in fighting style and is very much not what Samus was ever meant to be.

Teamwork is the whole point of the Ice Climbers. We have other retro characters and they have zero relevance in the modern day. Only Smash keeps them alive and it does so because they stand out.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

Doc doesn't have a veterinarian license?

Just as long as the animal has the Fever or the Chills!

 

[Smashplayer11]

The limitations that kept the Ice Climbers from being included were due to the 3DS. It's generally assumed that they could run in the Wii U version, but it's never been properly disclosed whether or not issues arose in that version as well due to things like 8-Player Smash. Hopefully the Switch is strong enough to handle 8 Ice Climbers, even with items on high and on a busy stage, but we won't know until the next Smash actually comes around. If issues persist it's more than likely that they'll simply be left out again. I agree on getting rid of wobbling though, I just don't think it necessitates turning the Ice Climbers into a lone Ice Climber.

I think that if it's on switch it should be available on all platforms or Nintendo won't do it

 

[Opossum]

I think that if it's on switch it should be available on all platforms or Nintendo won't do it

If there's a Smash 4 "Deluxe" for Switch, there's zero chance anyone added will be added to Wii U or 3DS...it'd go against the entire purpose of porting it. Characters are the only thing that'll likely get people to double or triple dip.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Veterans staying is also pretty good marketing in a way, cause there's been some backlash about cut characters before. So keeping a giant cast of characters unchanged is somehow also very good marketing and business strategy. If they'd just add back cut veterans from Brawl's roster and focus their marketing on that, it'd be a pretty safe bet that it would sell like hotcakes.

They might do a complete reboot after this game however. In that case, I could see a lot of characters from Smash 4's roster dissapearing, and even older ones as Jigglypuff and Sheik.

 

[FunAtParties]

Veterans staying is also pretty good marketing in a way, cause there's been some backlash about cut characters before. So keeping a giant cast of characters unchanged is somehow also very good marketing and business strategy. If they'd just add back cut veterans from Brawl's roster and focus their marketing on that, it'd be a pretty safe bet that it would sell like hotcakes.

They might do a complete reboot after this game however. In that case, I could see a lot of characters from Smash 4's roster dissapearing, and even older ones as Jigglypuff and Sheik.

I feel like people's expectations are crazy sometimes. Including the cut characters, there have been 65 different characters in Smash, this is if we bring back all of(no this isn't counting Pokemon Trainer or Mii's in one slot, they're all developed individually, they should count separately). People want all that back PLUS more characters AND more content (better single player, etc...).

Sacrifices are going to have to be made somewhere.

 

[Oddball]

Frankly, I think some characters should get cut or completley revamped every game. It keeps things from getting sale. Plus it gets you more excited when a character makes his dramtic return two or three games later.

 

[Kirbeh]

Frankly, I think some characters should get cut or completley revamped every game. It keeps things from getting sale. Plus it gets you more excited when a character makes his dramtic return two or three games later.

I mean, that's more or less what we've gotten already. It's just been more of a slow progression rather than dramatic change from one game to the next.

- Slowly differentiated from
was cut, but given he was planned for Brawl, there's reason to believe he would've followed suit and we did eventually get him back in Smash For with more changes to set him apart from .
is the only one who remains unchanged, but this still ended up working out as in this case is the one who ended up changing a bit when they gave him FLUDD and the new DAIR which works as a pseudo Mario Tornado.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

I think Duck Hunt's Up-B should be changed to a Gumshoe reference. Like, he hops on the Detective, the hunter shoots the detective, causing him to jump.

If DH is supposed to be the ''Zapper character'' then he should contain moves for every Zapper game.

 

[FunAtParties]

I think Duck Hunt's Up-B should be changed to a Gumshoe reference. Like, he hops on the Detective, the hunter shoots the detective, causing him to jump.

If DH is supposed to be the ''Zapper character'' then he should contain moves for every Zapper game.

I want Duck Hunt Dog to be completely revamped to where he turns into a badass weapons expert character, dual-wielding Zappers, laughing manically at his own antics. He steals Snake's down Smash as he digs a hole in the ground, and buries a landmine. Stuff like that.

He can keep the can though I like that.

I'm only half joking.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think Duck Hunt's Up-B should be changed to a Gumshoe reference. Like, he hops on the Detective, the hunter shoots the detective, causing him to jump.

If DH is supposed to be the ''Zapper character'' then he should contain moves for every Zapper game.

How about we don't shoot Gumshoe.

 

[Opossum]

How about we don't shoot Gumshoe.

Isn't that true to the game though? IIRC you had to shoot Gumshoe for him to jump.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Isn't that true to the game though? IIRC you had to shoot Gumshoe for him to jump.

Is it?

 

[Kirbeh]

tbh, I'd rather just not have Gumshoe in DH's moveset. A trophy, assist or some other role would be best imo.

 

[Opossum]

Is it?

Just looked it up to be sure, and yep. You have to shoot him to make him jump.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

tbh, I'd rather just not have Gumshoe in DH's moveset. A trophy, assist or some other role would be best imo.

Why? It's Zapper game, Duck Hunt's supposed to be this Zapper character, why ignore it?

I'd actually like to see Gumshoe as a playable character but that would be pretty redundant.

 

[Opossum]

Why? It's Zapper game, Duck Hunt's supposed to be this Zapper character, why ignore it?

I'd actually like to see Gumshoe as a playable character but that would be pretty redundant.

I think part of the issue might be obscurity in Japan. Gumshoe was never actually released there, and while Japan-only games have Smash content, the same isn't true of the reverse. StarTropics gets no Smash love either, sadly.

 

[FunAtParties]

Why? It's Zapper game, Duck Hunt's supposed to be this Zapper character, why ignore it?

I'd actually like to see Gumshoe as a playable character but that would be pretty redundant.

I like it, it sounds like a really interesting recovery. Hitbox sizes would have to be really generous though, or maybe auto-aim with a time limit for shots (quicker shots pop him up less, wait a long time and its one big jump).

Either way I'm down, his current up B is boring.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Looking at it this way, how much work would it take to port over the 5 missing veterans from Brawl?

Updated models and textures
Tweaked movesets for balance
Brand new Special moves (for the Pokemon)
New voice lines (if they want Wolf to be in line with the 64 voices of Fox and Falco)
New Final Smashes (Wolf got an actual land vehicle in Zero, Squirtle and Ivysaur need whole-cloth ones, Ice Climbers was a bit rubbish TBH)
Konami to not be dingles (real tipping point that one)
New Stage/bring back the MGS cast (unless they just cut out the easter egg on Shadow Moses. Which would suck.)
Game system to not break down sobbing when in use (Popo, Nana; you may get your due.)

Wolf, Squirtle and Ivysaur have no major issues but it will depend on wether Nintendo/Sakurai thinks it's more worthwhile to bring them back or to add a brand new character like... the shapes from Snipperclips?

 

[Arcadenik]

Just looked it up to be sure, and yep. You have to shoot him to make him jump.

That reminds me of the Wild West where outlaws would shoot at people to make them dance.

 

[Johnknight1]

Veterans staying is also pretty good marketing in a way, cause there's been some backlash about cut characters before. So keeping a giant cast of characters unchanged is somehow also very good marketing and business strategy. If they'd just add back cut veterans from Brawl's roster and focus their marketing on that, it'd be a pretty safe bet that it would sell like hotcakes.

As much as I would love to have all the veterans return in Smash 4 on the Switch/Smash 5, they are in no way all "necessary."

• Roy is a character I love, but he wasn't necessary for the roster size of Smash 4. He was never necessary. He may reach that status with a few key changes that may make him necessary, but he isn't near that status yet.
• ROB IMO is not due to a lacking need for his kind of character and him not really being a character as much as he is a toy/peripheral and thus lacking any characteristics (as well as any notable games anyone cares about). Some would disagree with my assessment though (which is completely fair and logical, and I don't want to debate this).
• Pichu was never necessary and was only ever a joke. The only "pure" joke character in the franchise, actually.
• Squirtle and Ivysaur were never necessary. They only got in because of a mechanic.
• Snake is a special case due to Konami just going AWOL slowly since 2010. If not for that, he would be 100% necessary due to the millions of eyes and fans Metal Gear always attracts.
• Wolf is sort of half and half at this point. He's both kind of necessary and kind of not.
• The Ice Climbers are necessary due to their unique mechanic and very specific and unique fanbase. However, that mechanic was a curse in Smash 4, which is the sole reason they weren't playable in Smash 4. It is worth noting that the unique fanbase of The Ice Climbers was very notably missing in Smash 4, which is something developers notice.

Not saying they can't/won't return, but there is logic in some characters not being necessary.

When you think "great Nintendo characters in Smash," does Ivysaur or ROB, Ivysaur, Squirtle or Roy pop out of your thoughts?

For most people the answer is "no."

 

[ryuu seika]

ROB was given a lead role in Brawl's story and his character was defined there. He's still a little lacking in that regard but he does, technically, have some character. His appearance in Smash, however, is clearly more Nintendo's wish than that of their fans.

Pichu is a stupid and utterly unnecessary character but also the most mechanically unique of the clones. I would love to see him return, even if, as you say, he has no real importance to the series.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

• Squirtle and Ivysaur were never necessary. They only got in because of a mechanic.

Well Squirtle is half and half.

He would have been Blastoise if not for dedication to an evolution theme.

 

[Johnknight1]

ROB was given a lead role in Brawl's story and his character was defined there. He's still a little lacking in that regard but he does, technically, have some character. His appearance in Smash, however, is clearly more Nintendo's wish than that of their fans.

Pretty much what I think. ROB has a fanbase though like the Ice Climbers, although I don't think it is quite as large. Still, a robot/cyborg archetype is somewhat common in fighting games (Tekken has Jack for instance), and ROB fills that niche at the very least.

I again want to reiterate, however, I am personally not for any cuts. If it were up to me, I would keep adding veterans as DLC characters first and foremost (because they are the easiest to add).

Pichu is a stupid and utterly unnecessary character but also the most mechanically unique of the clones. I would love to see him return, even if, as you say, he has no real importance to the series.

...I gotta say I've heard a lot of descriptive summaries of Pichu, but this is not one I have heard before. Simple, but elegant and agreeable. Pichu has a few unique mechanics in Melee, and I would love to see Pichu return to expand upon them.

Well Squirtle is half and half.

He would have been Blastoise if not for dedication to an evolution theme.

Blastoise is my favorite Pokémon and most wanted Nintendo-owned potential newcomer (namely among longshots), but Squirtle has some qualifications.

It is cute and has something of a star status (probably moreso than someone like Shulk or Robin), has mass appeal and is a character many with very little time put into video games would recognize, and the speed element to the character is unique.

I just think overall Squirtle in Brawl had a nice kit, but it was poorly utilized. It felt boring, and it had some bad game design. Ivysaur of the 3 Pokémon Trainer's Pokémon felt the most fleshed out, but even Ivysaur had some very wonky design.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Funny that Ivysaur's moveset had an emphasis on anti-air attacks when it's a grass type. Honestly, if Razor Leaf was a bit better and the stamina mechanic was removed Ivysaur would have been my favourite in Brawl.

As for Squirtle, I want him to return with some tweaks. Water Gun's damaging version was sup-par and it's Down-Smash was just a weaker version of it's up smash.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Bring the rest of the Brawl cuts back and forget Young Link, because we don't need another child Link.

 

[FunAtParties]

Funny that Ivysaur's moveset had an emphasis on anti-air attacks when it's a grass type. Honestly, if Razor Leaf was a bit better and the stamina mechanic was removed Ivysaur would have been my favourite in Brawl.

As for Squirtle, I want him to return with some tweaks. Water Gun's damaging version was sup-par and it's Down-Smash was just a weaker version of it's up smash.

Ivy is in a weird place for me. I never wanted it in the game, and am not upset that it's gone, but I can't deny that move set felt great. Add the hyperbeam from PM, and it would be even better.

I still don't know how to feel about this character.

 

[Johnknight1]

Funny that Ivysaur's moveset had an emphasis on anti-air attacks when it's a grass type. Honestly, if Razor Leaf was a bit better and the stamina mechanic was removed Ivysaur would have been my favourite in Brawl.

Ivysaur had a good design and decent execution. You don't have to change Ivysaur much to make Ivysaur a very good returning veteran.

As for Squirtle, I want him to return with some tweaks. Water Gun's damaging version was sup-par and it's Down-Smash was just a weaker version of it's up smash.

Squirtle needs an added "oompf!" to Squirtle's kit. Something that adds a hit and that you can center a lot of Squirtle's strengths around.

Worth noting that I do wonder how it would look if we got Venusaur and Blastoise instead. Imagine getting both... that would actually be hype as hell. On top of that, the Smash roster lacks heavyweights, so that would be nice having more.

Still, there are some things Squirtle and Ivysaur can do that their final evolutions cannot.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Blastoise and Venusaur? Wanted that ever since last game. Especially Blastoise, cause **** yeah Blastoise.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

I don't think it would be a huge surprise to see all of the veterans return in Smash as some people think. It would take a lot of work to do that regardless, that said it wouldn't be as tough to do as some people think.

- can be ported from Brawl which makes things a little easier, also we know Sakurai and the team have already put work into them. These two could very easily come back as long as technical limitations permit

- Another character that can be ported from Brawl and could easily come back.

- Same thing except licensing issues with Konami, especially with Kojima gone, could be difficult.

and - Kind of a package in my opinion. It would be weird if one returned and not the other. They could be ported but would also need some changes to their movesets such as their special+down. Ivysaur would also need a new special+up, maybe he uses leaf tornado to propel himself upward kind of like that one custom move Megaman has?

and - The only two that could not be ported. I will probably get a lot of hate for saying this, but I think they should just come back as complete clones like Dr. Mario, Dark pit, and Lucina. Their development could be significantly shorter and I'm sure their fans would be pretty happy to see them.

Anyway, this was just to show how it wouldn't be as bad as some might think to bring back every veteran(although licensing issues with Snake are a real problem).

 

[ryuu seika]

Pichu's appeal was his uniqueness. If he's not rebalanced, keeping the self harm and everything, I'd rather not see him at all.

 

[Arcadenik]

I think i would like Smash Switch to be kinda like Mortal Kombat Trilogy (N64 and PS1) where it has all the characters, all the stages, all the items, all the Pokemon, all the Assist Trophies, everything from past Smash games.

 

[Dragoncharystary]

I think i would like Smash Switch to be kinda like Mortal Kombat Trilogy (N64 and PS1) where it has all the characters, all the stages, all the items, all the Pokemon, all the Assist Trophies, everything from past Smash games.

This sums up my thoughts exactly on what I would like Smash Switch to be.

 

[FunAtParties]

I know a lot of people like how is, so I'm not going to try and start up a whole character revamp here, but I do have one move change idea I'd like to share.

Down B or Down Smash- Dig
Peepers digs a hole directly in front of him, kicking dirt up behind him. The longer he digs the hole, the longer it stays out (3 secs no charge-10 secs full charge).

-If the opponent steps in the hole, they become buried.

-One hole at a time. If DHD digs another hole with a hole currently out, the first hole will disappear and be replaced by the second.

-The dirt kicked up from behind does slight damage, and walls out opponents. Think Bowser's flame breath.

-By pressing 'B' once in front of the hole, DHD can bury his Can in the hole, creating a mine. This can be triggered by pressing 'B' one more time, or will naturally last as long as the can normally does, in effect extending the time the hole normally lasts on shorter charges.

-The hole can be countered by filling them with items like but not limited to: Diddy's banana/peanuts, or Mega Man's Metal Blade.

-The hole is not visible from our camera's perspective. If the game is paused and camera faces the ground it can be seen, but normally the only way to know where they are is by remembering where they are dug.

-Villager and Duck Hunt Dog's attacks would have interesting properties towards on another. For example, Dig would be able to dig up Villager's Tree in both forms (one takes longer than the other for obvious reasons). Villager's Down Smash can fill in DHD's holes as well.