Official Veterans Discussion

[Murlough]

...There is no "Female Link". That's Linkle, who is a different character, and while a concept for a Female Link was thought up at one point, she was turned into an unrelated character. The whole point of her is she isn't Link, nor the hero of the story, but still a hero in her own right(and in her own head).

Besides that, Young Link coming back would only work if they have an ideal change to him, but there's not much beyond severely changing him that'll keep it interesting. Which also would alienate fans of Young Link, who already pretty much have his moveset in Toon Link anyway. For good reasons, he's unfeasible, but it isn't because of competition from a spin-off character.

...I get that you actually probably play Legend of Zelda but for all intents and purposes Linkle is Female Link. Her design screams it. I feel like you just have bone to pick with me at this point because anybody else would be able to say "Yes, Linkle looks just like Link but gender-swapped."

Maybe her character actually is different personality-wise (which is what I think you're arguing about? I'm too tired for this ****.) but her original concept derives from Link. She can have her own unique story and personality and weapons and stuff she became a character because of the idea of a Female Link. I don't understand how or why you are attempting to argue against this.

From this point forward I will use Linkle if it makes you feel better. I used "Female Link" in the last comment to stress how little sense Young Link made to me when a female version with a Crossbow would be far more interesting and would also get quite a few people hyped. I already knew Linkle's name.

As for the second part....I understand full well that Young Link makes no sense which is why I asked "Why," to the person who does want him to return. I want to understand why someone would want him. You can't answer that question because once again you and I agree...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

...I get that you actually probably play Legend of Zelda but for all intents and purposes Linkle is Female Link. Her design screams it. I feel like you just have bone to pick with me at this point because anybody else would be able to say "Yes, Linkle looks just like Link but gender-swapped."

Actually, she doesn't. She wears a different costume and uses a different weapon. She's not a "female Link". Her entire point is she's a completely different character who wants to be another Link, but isn't. This is a severe misinterpretation of her character and she not only couldn't work as an alternate costume due to this, but she also already has a very low chance of getting in due to it.

Maybe her character actually is different personality-wise (which is what I think you're arguing about? I'm too tired for this ****.) but her original concept derives from Link. She can have her own unique story and personality and weapons and stuff she became a character because of the idea of a Female Link. I don't understand how or why you are attempting to argue against this.

And Luigi was derived from Mario at first but branched off. Means nothing. She only shared a basic concept of "was originally created as a version of Link", but actually did not exist till not actually being a real Link. That's, again, the entire point of her. She thinks she is, but isn't.

From this point forward I will use Linkle if it makes you feel better. I used "Female Link" in the last comment to stress how little sense Young Link made to me when a female version with a Crossbow would be far more interesting and would also get quite a few people hyped. I already knew Linkle's name.

It's because you're trying to completely remove who she is and use a completely different character that only exists in fanart. Linkle is not female Link and never will be. And that's something Aonuma even went into about, as he doesn't want a female Link to exist, making it clear Link must be male... for story reasons(I don't agree with the reasons myself, but at least he gave an explanation).

As for the second part....I understand full well that Young Link makes no sense which is why I asked "Why," to the person who does want him to return. I want to understand why someone would want him. You can't answer that question because once again you and I agree...

Actually, I'd be okay with him returning myself. Problem is I can't see it happening. He was my actual option over Toon Link for Smash 4 when I made a roster some time back, based more on ALBW. Overall, I can't think of a good way to incorporate him in a way that makes him enjoyable but different. It'd be more like a Dr. Mario/Mario differences in this case, mainly due to the character size. Something that should be noted is Young Link and Toon Link's animations are actually different, so their playstyle isn't nearly that identical. It's the role they play that is the same, not entirely the moveset.

To note, all the veterans still gone, I can only see a handful returning anyway, Snake(if lucky), Wolf, Ice Climbers, and maybeeeeee Pichu. I doubt the first and last one, to say the least, and I'm not betting on Wolf considering we got burned last time.

 

[Murlough]

Actually, she doesn't. She wears a different costume and uses a different weapon. She's not a "female Link". Her entire point is she's a completely different character who wants to be another Link, but isn't. This is a severe misinterpretation of her character and she not only couldn't work as an alternate costume due to this, but she also already has a very low chance of getting in due to it.


And Luigi was derived from Mario at first but branched off. Means nothing. She only shared a basic concept of "was originally created as a version of Link", but actually did not exist till not actually being a real Link. That's, again, the entire point of her. She thinks she is, but isn't.


It's because you're trying to completely remove who she is and use a completely different character that only exists in fanart. Linkle is not female Link and never will be. And that's something Aonuma even went into about, as he doesn't want a female Link to exist, making it clear Link must be male... for story reasons(I don't agree with the reasons myself, but at least he gave an explanation).


Actually, I'd be okay with him returning myself. Problem is I can't see it happening. He was my actual option over Toon Link for Smash 4 when I made a roster some time back, based more on ALBW. Overall, I can't think of a good way to incorporate him in a way that makes him enjoyable but different. It'd be more like a Dr. Mario/Mario differences in this case, mainly due to the character size. Something that should be noted is Young Link and Toon Link's animations are actually different, so their playstyle isn't nearly that identical. It's the role they play that is the same, not entirely the moveset.

To note, all the veterans still gone, I can only see a handful returning anyway, Snake(if lucky), Wolf, Ice Climbers, and maybeeeeee Pichu. I doubt the first and last one, to say the least, and I'm not betting on Wolf considering we got burned last time.

Fine. Linkle is not Female Link. It is pretty easy for someone who doesn't play LoZ to believe that at first, though.

Yeah, I'm not betting on Wolf or Pichu either. Everyone wants Wolf back except the one whos opinion matters sadly. I see potential in Pichu besides "joke-character" (I hate joke characters in fighting games) but honestly my idea for its gameplay can be easily added on to other more interesting newcomers.

Ice Climbers I am betting on. I don't see Snake ever coming back but crazier things have happened.

My issue with Young Link isn't that he plays too much like Tink but because he plays too much like Adult Link. Also who wants 3 Links in? I also am biased towards Toon Link so I just don't care for the Young variant at all.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Fine. Linkle is not Female Link. It is pretty easy for someone who doesn't play LoZ to believe that at first, though.

The costume doesn't help, nor the face. She's not nearly that much like Link beyond the name and... the fact she wears green clothes. Part of why I like her, as they really made her feel completely different while clearly showing a connection to the hero aesthetically.

Yeah, I'm not betting on Wolf or Pichu either. Everyone wants Wolf back except the one whos opinion matters sadly. I see potential in Pichu besides "joke-character" (I hate joke characters in fighting games) but honestly my idea for its gameplay can be easily added on to other more interesting newcomers.

I don't think I've read your gameplay idea, but as for Wolf, the outcry of his full cut is likely to reach Sakurai's ears, so he has a better chance than during 4.

Ice Climbers I am betting on. I don't see Snake ever coming back but crazier things have happened.

Snake depends mostly on Konami now. Unless we learn why he was cut, we can't say much else.

My issue with Young Link isn't that he plays too much like Tink but because he plays too much like Adult Link. Also who wants 3 Links in? I also am biased towards Toon Link so I just don't care for the Young variant at all.

I honestly like additional movesets that are fun to play as. Wouldn't bother me. I just want Moblin Ganon already. But fair enough.

 

[Sage of Ice]

what's the general consensus on mewtwo and lucario's odds of coming back? i'm pretty confident all my other old favorites are safe, it's just those two i worry about. if we can keep them and get wolf back, all my favorites from across the series will be together on the same roster and i'll live with whatever new faces they send our way

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

what's the general consensus on mewtwo and lucario's odds of coming back? i'm pretty confident all my other old favorites are safe, it's just those two i worry about. if we can keep them and get wolf back, all my favorites from across the series will be together on the same roster and i'll live with whatever new faces they send our way

Lucario is pretty much a guarantee, and Mewtwo is a near one. I'd say the Legendary is just below Jigglypuff at this time, who also has a super high chance these days(though she may be low priority, that doesn't change how easy she is to recreate from Kirby every time). Honestly, I doubt we're getting any cuts Pokemon-wise this time. But I could be missing something. Maybe Greninja could be a one-hit wonder, for all we know.

 

[Murlough]

I don't think I've read your gameplay idea.

Well, I thought of pichu's concept of damaging itself when it attacks and realized that I had seen other fighting game characters do the same thing without being joke characters.

Shadow Mewtwo for example, is a character who trades health for exceptionally strong specials. Pichu could in theory return as a luigified version of Pikachu that uses some of Pikachu's custom specials (after being rebalanced a bit) that represent Pichu's uncontrolled nature in its power.

Pichu would become a glass cannon character focused on dealing quick damage and ending stocks with its powerful specials but run the risk of dying sooner than it should due to the damage it inflicts on itself.

But sadly, there are other characters who could do that idea better.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well, I thought of pichu's concept of damaging itself when it attacks and realized that I had seen other fighting game characters do the same thing without being joke characters.

Shadow Mewtwo for example, is a character who trades health for exceptionally strong specials. Pichu could in theory return as a luigified version of Pikachu that uses some of Pikachu's custom specials (after being rebalanced a bit) that represent Pichu's uncontrolled nature in its power.

Pichu would become a glass cannon character focused on dealing quick damage and ending stocks with its powerful specials but run the risk of dying sooner than it should due to the damage it inflicts on itself.

But sadly, there are other characters who could do that idea better.

Agreed. This would be really fun too. Especially if Rage is back, or if it isn't, this would only work for PIchu. Basically a similar yet distinct concept to Lucario.

 

[ZagarTulip]

Smash Switch should bring back Lucario's SSBB Final Smash.
Lucario's new SSB4 final smash is just lazy and uncreative.
It was a really good final smash replaced with a generic transformation that has no creativity involved.

 

[Murlough]

Smash Switch should bring back Lucario's SSBB Final Smash.
Lucario's new SSB4 final smash is just lazy and uncreative.
It was a really good final smash replaced with a generic transformation that has no creativity involved.

It was so bad that my 7 year old brother figured out how to avoid it for free. It was just "LASEERRR," even though Lucario has never been shown to have learned how to do that. Now he Mega Evolves, which is canon, and no matter what percent he is at he gains max aura. That's fantastic because max aura Lucario is busted.

 

[Minch]

Which characters you guys suspect will get a major overhaul this time?

With the ability to re-use assets from the Wii U version I hope they had the time to rework a lot of these veteran characters.
As excited as I am about the newcomers, seeing Breath of the Wild Link just made me instantly exited for what other characters get a change.

Now these could very well just be cosmetic. Remember that the Switch is reaching a whole new audience that only know these big name characters from the last few games they were in. Making them more representative of that would be a good call.

These are the characters I really hope they alter:

- introduce Cappy as a new special. Have FLUDD replace the broken gust belows as an item. Give him a final smash that is actually from a Mario game.
- base his design and voice more around the Mario series.
- give him his Tropical Freeze design and voice. Add some character to this bland ape. Also maybe add a barrel throw for his new side b.
- with the BOTW look I hope he gets more moves based on the game. But they don't have to go too crazy with the changes.
- give her the BOTW design. Update that moveset based off of the champions. Make Zelda great.
- update her look to either be more like Hyrule Warriors or an original design based off of BOTW.
- give the man his own moveset! A sword and some ranged magic attacks. Also either his Hyrule Warriors look or BOTW inspired design. Beast Ganon final smash is perfect but I will also accept a new Calamity Ganon final smash.
- maybe some new melee specials inspired by Samus Returns?
- new voice and look based off of Zero. But not quite the taxidermy look. Also ditch the landmaster and call in the Great Fox for some backup. It's called STAR Fox.
- this man prefers the air! Put him in an arwing for his final smash for christ's sake. It could work like ZSS or Yoshis. Also bring back the Brooklyn accent.
- turn skullbash into an iron tail or volt tackle. Give him a a Z ring final smash. Pikachu Libre and Detective Pikachu costumes plz.
- buff
- replace rock smash with something. I don't know but just replace it.
- Ash-Greninja final smash
- keep making him different from Marth, they're on the right track.
- just do something different. At least a different final smash.
- pick the best custom moves and make these her standard. Ditch custom moves altogether.
- CHANGE IT ALL!
- rock Pikmin were snubbed
- give this guy an actual Animal Crossing related up-b
- put her through whatever nerf machine you put post-Brawl Metaknight through and call it a day
- just change one of the spin specials.... please?
- ditch the custom move gimmick. Give these guys a standard moveset and height/weight/speed. Make them a shrine to the Wii Sports/Resort games. Tennis racquets, golf clubs, paragliders, bull riding, boxing gloves, bowling balls, etc. You can choose the face and costumes. There was a little too much customization with these ones in Smash 4.

 

[ZagarTulip]

It was so bad that my 7 year old brother figured out how to avoid it for free. It was just "LASEERRR," even though Lucario has never been shown to have learned how to do that. Now he Mega Evolves, which is canon, and no matter what percent he is at he gains max aura. That's fantastic because max aura Lucario is busted.

I still think the SSBB Final Smash is better for Lucario. If the whole Mega Evolution thing is that important for Lucario, then here is my idea

Make Lucario Mega Evolve while using the SSBB Final Smash and I'd be satisfied. I just think generic transformation final smashes are lazy and too simple to come up with.

 

[LittleMissEevee]

This thread is for all things veterans. Movesets, speculation, and all that jazz.


Note that chracters who missed the cut for Smash For 3ds/wii U can still have their own threads etc.

what do you mean by own threads? like we can make a post for them here?

 

[TB2]

To be honest... im a lucario main ( no s**t sherlock ) but i really really want him to come back, there is a huge discussion where as he is coming back, or not, on my personal opinion, i really want him back, i mained him since i unlocked him at brawl, and i feel Smash wouldnt be the same for me if Lucario wasnt there, then again, this is from my view point, just imagine Mario isnt in a smash game and you kinda get my feeling ( it was an example, mario is obviously coming back xD )

LORD SAKURAI, BRING BACK

 

[LittleMissEevee]

To be honest... im a lucario main ( no s**t sherlock ) but i really really want him to come back, there is a huge discussion where as he is coming back, or not, on my personal opinion, i really want him back, i mained him since i unlocked him at brawl, and i feel Smash wouldnt be the same for me if Lucario wasnt there, then again, this is from my view point, just imagine Mario isnt in a smash game and you kinda get my feeling ( it was an example, mario is obviously coming back xD )

LORD SAKURAI, BRING BACK

I want him back, as well as the ics, wolf, pichu and whatnot back, also I want wobbling and brawl ics chain grabs back (I’m joking aabout the ics jank )

 

[Zinith]

Are there veteran change wishes that repeated so much that they practically become memes?

 

[Idon]

Are there veteran change wishes that repeated so much that they practically become memes?

Probably the most popular repeated vet change request is "make Ganondorf unique"

 

[LittleMissEevee]

Probably the most popular repeated vet change request is "make Ganondorf unique"

tbh all he really needs is dead man’s volley, he has several moves that are his and his alone from his game or official art, just none of his signature moves and dead man’s volley is the most signature, though if I were to take it further I’d give him his trident

 

[PF9]

I was just over in the Meowth support thread and there's a discussion on how there should be more cute Pokemon in Smash. The only cute ones that have appeared in multiple titles are Pikachu and Jigglypuff.

I might doubt Squirtle returning because of an overload of G1 Pokes (the only additional G1 I see is Meowth because of the anime). But I think Pichu should return for sure because it represents G2 and could easily add to the cute Pokes tally in addition to Mimikyu. I never bought that Pichu was strictly a joke character my opinion is that it is a legit G2 rep (sure they could have added any other G2 rep in Melee, but what other G2 Pokemon evolves into the franchise mascot? Exactly.)

Pichu could get more powerful the more damage it takes, like Lucario does. And if we see an increase of Pokemon anime references in the new game, Pichu Posse could be its Final Smash.

I think its status as a G2 Pokemon is the real reason Pichu hasn't returned. The Johto saga of the anime was very unpopular, and since Pichu was a Johto Pokemon, that means guilt by association. However, the most notable Pichu specimen in the anime, the Pichu Bros., didn't even appear in any main series episodes.

 

[DNeon]

my opinion is that it is a legit G2 rep (sure they could have added any other G2 rep in Melee, but what other G2 Pokemon evolves into the franchise mascot? Exactly

This is literally enough reason to point out that it is in no way a G2 rep. If it's picked because it's related to the Mascot and not to represent G2 then it's not a G2 rep, it's a Mascot variation.

Furthermore, where's the data that Johto was unpopular?

Pichu hasn't returned because Sakurai himself thinks it was a joke character. Pichu really doesn't bring anything of value over Pikachu.

 

[PF9]

If Pichu was a joke character how come we haven't seen joke characters in any other Smash game? Smash is just one of those few fighting series that has never included a character strictly as a joke. If a joke character was in Smash it would be perhaps a common enemy from one of the represented series (not counting Bandana Waddle Dee), for instance Goomba.

The point I'm getting at is that Pichu can be tweaked. My idea of making him more powerful the more damage he takes is not a bad idea, it could make Pichu a higher-tier character this way (similar to what the Aura does to Lucario).

 

[LittleMissEevee]

This is literally enough reason to point out that it is in no way a G2 rep. If it's picked because it's related to the Mascot and not to represent G2 then it's not a G2 rep, it's a Mascot variation.

Furthermore, where's the data that Johto was unpopular?

Pichu hasn't returned because Sakurai himself thinks it was a joke character. Pichu really doesn't bring anything of value over Pikachu.

I mean puff was able to return and it started as a joke, he brought puff back because he wanted to make her a more serious fighter

 

[DNeon]

I mean puff was able to return and it started as a joke, he brought puff back because he wanted to make her a more serious fighter

Puff is far more unique from the character she's cloning.

 

[LittleMissEevee]

Puff is far more unique from the character she's cloning.

eh sakurai even made note that she was supposed to be a clone of kirbs

 

[PF9]

If there's one advantage Pichu has over its evolved form it's cuteness. Since Pichu is the baby form of Pikachu that raises the cuteness factor significantly.

I also think the Ballot might help Pichu's chances this time around. I'm sure there were a lot of voters who chose him.

That being said, I heard Wolf might be coming back, and I think it would be a travesty if Wolf returned but Pichu, who has been waiting longer for his second Smash appearance, did not.

 

[LittleMissEevee]

If there's one advantage Pichu has over its evolved form it's cuteness. Since Pichu is the baby form of Pikachu that raises the cuteness factor significantly.

I also think the Ballot might help Pichu's chances this time around. I'm sure there were a lot of voters who chose him.

That being said, I heard Wolf might be coming back, and I think it would be a travesty if Wolf returned but Pichu, who has been waiting longer for his second Smash appearance, did not.

Yeah I love pichu and wolf, I’d love to see them return. I hope his nair remains as was, I don’t care if he still hurts himself, imo that just adds to his character of being seperate from pikachu, as long as he keeps his melee properties and maybe a few range buffs I think he would be justified, after all if he is his melee self he’d be quite different from pikachu on that alone, bair only hitting once, different usmash animations, different dsmash, things like that, though if he got smash crusade’s nuzzle I think he’d be complete, imagine... pichu getting a counter that instead of a retaliation he get’s armour?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

With the insane amount of characters we have, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a small amount of newcomers and the rest of the focus goes to improving and updating veterans.

I'd like to see Olimar and Alph get Rock & Wing Pikmin to replace white and purple and then give them the jet pack and ship from "Hey! Pikmin."

 

[Questionmark222]

Okay, kinda last-minute posting what I expect/want from veterans on top of my head:

- No cuts (if the game reuses Smash 4's assets)
- return (maybe as well if Vergeben's rumors are correct)
- : gets a semi-revamped Odyssey-based moveset (for ex. Cappy throw)
- gets more Luigi's mansion stuff, with a greater implementation of the Poltergust
- gets a Final Smash based on Super Princess Peach (Emotions possibly?)
- gets his Shoulder Bash back as his F-Smash
- : gets as a Final Smash either something based on OG DK or something like the Finish Blow from Returns/TF, or Animal Buddies
- get a full moveset revamp based on BOTW, the former gets Stasis Rune as Final Smash
- : gets a new design loosely based on Link's Sheikah costume from BOTW
- gets fully decloned as well as a new design based on a hypothetical "Avatar of Calamity"
- gets Samus Returns design, plus a semi-revamped moveset based on that game
- gets Buff Dedede as his Final Smash
-get their Star Fox Zero design (and respectively get Arwing and Wolfen Final Smashes)
- : gets Catastropika as his Final Smash
- gets Ash-Greninja as either a costume or a Final Smash
- gets PK Love as Final Smash
- gets Luigified
- gets Luigified
- becomes separate from : the latter gets his Brawl moveset back and the former keeps Smash 4's moveset, plus maybe Rock Pikmin
- gets a Final Smash based on Gyromite
- gets a costume based on his New Leaf design
- gets Ken as an alternate character
- Other characters from the OG 12 get some minor tweaks here and there to make them feel more like accurate depictions of themselves

 

[ChrysanthosVice]

It'd be nice to see Squirtle and Ivysaur as their own characters. Young Link, with enough retooling, could make it in. Pichu... Is a stretch, but I could see it happening. Snake, Wolf, and Ice Climbers perhaps have the best bet. iirc, Ice Climbers worked well enough on WiiU, it's just the 3DS couldn't handle them. Sakurai didn't want console-specific characters for practically the same game, so he booted them. With the power of the Switch, Ice Climbers have the absolute best bet of coming back!

Now we wait for Pokemon Trainer to be his own fighter.

Hey Guys What's Going On

 

[Idon]

GUESS THIS ENTIRE SECTION IS KINDA POINTLESS NOW.

 

[ChrysanthosVice]

GUESS THIS ENTIRE SECTION IS KINDA POINTLESS NOW.

YOU BET YOUR SWEET BIPPY IT IS