Official Veterans Discussion

[FunAtParties]

Characters' animations that I think need changing:
Pretty much entire moveset: (/) (not canon like, AT ALL)(/) (too similar to source material)
half the moves: (7 moves in a ball)
1 or 2 moves: (dair)(ftilt)

What would you change MK's dair and Mewtwo's ftilt?

I agree with Wario, but I'm fine with DK. I'd rather see Bowser get revamped (a lot of his move set is heavily based on DK's).

Sonic could use a few new moves, mainly the side b, down b thing, and I'd love for his fair to be changed to the windmill kick.

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

What would you change MK's dair and Mewtwo's ftilt?.

Mewtwos ftilt is just a more trash version of his down tilt, and MK has a canon downward thrust as opposed to a non canon downward slash.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Characters' animations that I think need changing:
Pretty much entire moveset: (/) (not canon like, AT ALL)(/) (too similar to source material)
half the moves: (7 moves in a ball)
1 or 2 moves: (dair)(ftilt)

I always thought that DK indeed could use more punching attacks instead of slaps. That'd give him a far more fearsome, beastly look instead of the comical goofball he is in Smash For. N64's F Tilt for example was great, although too slow. I'd like a different animation for F Tilt. Moves like his Forward Air and Down Smash are great examples of the fighting style I always envisioned for DK, but the rest of his moves are fine. ESPECIALLY now that they took care of his Dash Attack.

Wario I agree with though. He doesn't really feel like Wario at all, just a weird dude with a motorcycle and a weird ass bite attack with nuclear farts.

Lucina and Dark Pit are a given, they where made cause it was just very easy to add them as full clones. I expect them either gone or be a semi-clone next time around.

MetaKnight is fine and is a Sakurai creation so he easily has one of the best fitting movesets in the game. Kirby and Dedede need way more work than him.

Sonic I really don't care about in any way.

Mewtwo's F Tilt is not terrible, but also not amazing. It's an okay move. I just wish Mewtwo used more psychic related moves than physical ones.

 

[FunAtParties]

Mewtwos ftilt is just a more trash version of his down tilt, and MK has a canon downward thrust as opposed to a non canon downward slash.

Yeah but what would you replace his Ftilt with?

I like Meta Knights dair as it is personally, though I'd be fine for the thrust to be implemented as long as it isn't a stall-then-fall attack.

Firstly, I hate those, secondly, while it's canon to the games, it really goes against his quick nature in Smash. Maybe a quick downwards stab without momentum change?

 

[LightningVance]

I'd give anything for back. Was my main in Brawl and overall over my years of playing Smash (probably since 1999) the character I've used the most. Specifically Squirtle. If they could bring back the 3 way functionality, but get rid of Stamina for.... something else... that'd be fantastic. Even if the whole Trainer concept wouldn't work, just bring back Squirtle and Iyvsaur, although I'm sure many would think there'd be way too many Pokémon if that was the case.
I can only see have been cut from Smash 4 due to time/3DS constraints, definitely can't see being left out of the next installment/the Switch port.
They're back as long as the game isn't on a piece of hardware that has to cut back on content in order to play the game.
Like others have said, they'd need to be completely reworked in order to justify being included. Then again, Lucina/Marth exist so maybe Pichu could be left the way it is.
Dependent on Nintendo's relationship with Konami... that's about it.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

Bowser: Should dump Whirling Fortress and make Bowser Bomb his Up-B. Change his Side-B to a Hammer-Throwing attack like in SMB1.

Wario: Completely overhauled moveset that dumps the non-canon garbage that no one wants or likes. Mostly Wario Land based with Microgame references as Aerials and Tilts.

Pikachu: Reference Surfing Pikachu in some way.

Ice Climbers: Be in the game.

Donkey Kong: Change Final Smash to his Coconut Gun from DK64.

Falco: Change Final Smash to Arwing.

Wolf: Be in the game.

 

[Kirbeh]

Bowser: Should dump Whirling Fortress and make Bowser Bomb his Up-B. Change his Side-B to a Hammer-Throwing attack like in SMB1.

Wario: Completely overhauled moveset that dumps the non-canon garbage that no one wants or likes. Mostly Wario Land based with Microgame references as Aerials and Tilts.

Pikachu: Reference Surfing Pikachu in some way.

Donkey Kong: Change Final Smash to his Coconut Gun from DK64.

- The Hammer would be interesting, but I'm kind of torn as I very much like Whirling Fortress. The only other way I can think of including the hammer is my mapping it to something like Up-Tilt and making it somewhat weak or very short ranged.

Either that or overhaul Bowser's grabs into some unique grappler system similar to how DK has the cargo throw. That way, the hammer could be mapped to Side B, but we'd still keep the Flying Slam as one of his grabs.

- A lot of people actually do like his current moveset. Wario Land fans are in the minority, and that said, many Wario Land fans still like the current version of Wario.

I'd like for them to either throw in some Wario Land moves like the Charge as a strong/super armor dash attack, or add a semi-clone, Wario Land themed Wario as a separate character.
If we can have different versions of the same characters in the form of then we should be able to have both &

- How would they even go about doing something like that? It'd be a nice little reference to have somewhere in the game, but I don't think it should part of Pikachu's actual moveset. If customs return then maybe it could be an Up B but otherwise I don't see any way of doing this unless it's a trophy or there happens to be a beach stage with waves characters can ride during which you could take a snapshot of Pikachu as an extremely loose reference.

- While I agree that he should probably get a new FS, why the Coconut Gun from DK64 exactly? I think it'd make a lot more sense to to have a close range flurry of punches (Kong Combo?) to reference Returns and Tropical Freeze.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

- The Hammer would be interesting, but I'm kind of torn as I very much like Whirling Fortress. The only other way I can think of including the hammer is my mapping it to something like Up-Tilt and making it somewhat weak or very short ranged.

Either that or overhaul Bowser's grabs into some unique grappler system similar to how DK has the cargo throw. That way, the hammer could be mapped to Side B, but we'd still keep the Flying Slam as one of his grabs.

- A lot of people actually do like his current moveset. Wario Land fans are in the minority, and that said, many Wario Land fans still like the current version of Wario.

I'd like for them to either throw in some Wario Land moves like the Charge as a strong/super armor dash attack, or add a semi-clone, Wario Land themed Wario as a separate character.
If we can have different versions of the same characters in the form of then we should be able to have both &

- How would they even go about doing something like that? It'd be a nice little reference to have somewhere in the game, but I don't think it should part of Pikachu's actual moveset. If customs return then maybe it could be an Up B but otherwise I don't see any way of doing this unless it's a trophy or there happens to be a beach stage with waves characters can ride during which you could take a snapshot of Pikachu as an extremely loose reference.

- While I agree that he should probably get a new FS, why the Coconut Gun from DK64 exactly? I think it'd make a lot more sense to to have a close range flurry of punches (Kong Combo?) to reference Returns and Tropical Freeze.

-As for DK, Diddy has his Jetpack from 64 so I figured, why not let DK reference that game too?

-Surfing Pikachu can be a taunt

-Wario and ''Classic Wario''. I like it. But not as a semi-clone, should be completely different (And Biker Wario should still use Microgame elements as attacks)

 

[Kirbeh]

-As for DK, Diddy has his Jetpack from 64 so I figured, why not let DK reference that game too?

-Surfing Pikachu can be a taunt

-Wario and ''Classic Wario''. I like it. But not as a semi-clone, should be completely different (And Biker Wario should still use Microgame elements as attacks)

-That'd be quite the taunt, especially if it actually summons a wave, which is why I'm still not too keen on it. Though I suppose they could find a way for it to work without actually making it a possible annoying tool he could use.

-While I'd prefer for them to be as different as possible, there's no doubt they'd share the same model, and I figure some overlap would occur for a few moves like Neutral Jab and Neutral Air. Stuff like that.

As for Microgame elements, I'd actually prefer if we got another Wario stage/rep to handle those.

 

[FunAtParties]

I'd rather see Bowser Bomb go than Whirling Fortress.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

I'd rather see Bowser Bomb go than Whirling Fortress.

Why would you want to get rid of the move he actually does in a Mario Game (See: Super Mario Brothers 3) instead of the one that he NEVER does in a Mario Game?

 

[FunAtParties]

Why would you want to get rid of the move he actually does in a Mario Game (See: Super Mario Brothers 3) instead of the one that he NEVER does in a Mario Game?

Because this is Smash Bros, and I like it better.

Whirling Fortress has been one of Bowser's best attacks since Melee, you learn to like it after awhile. Bowser Bomb is just a slower version of Yoshi's attack, highly punishable, varied rewards between games. Never grew attached to it.

Obviously changing it to his up b would change things, but honestly if you're trying to make space for that hammer throw attack, I'd prefer you ditch that terrible side b Flying Slam and just keep the other attacks where they are.

 

[Kirbeh]

Why would you want to get rid of the move he actually does in a Mario Game (See: Super Mario Brothers 3) instead of the one that he NEVER does in a Mario Game?

I'm still in favor of keeping both and giving him a unique grab system for those that want to keep Flying Slam. Or just use it to replace one of his current throws. Then make Fire Shot his default Neutral B and the Koopa Hammer could be a new Side B.

 

[FunAtParties]

I'm still in favor of keeping both and giving him a unique grab system for those that want to keep Flying Slam. Then make Fire Shot his default Neutral B and the Koopa Hammer could be a new Side B.

I really really cant stand Flying Slam. I could live with bringing Koopa Claw back, and buffing it like PM did, but I'd rather them go in a different direction with his character altogether.

I always found it weird that Bowser sort of became the grappler character, even though he's literally the perfect fit to be the turtle archetype. One more projectile, buff fire breathe, and now he's a tank that can wall out opponents.

 

[Kirbeh]

I really really cant stand Flying Slam. I could live with bringing Koopa Claw back, and buffing it like PM did, but I'd rather them go in a different direction with his character altogether.

I always found it weird that Bowser sort of became the grappler character, even though he's literally the perfect fit to be the turtle archetype. One more projectile, buff fire breathe, and now he's a tank that can wall out opponents.

It is a little odd, but also somewhat fitting to a degree. tbh, I wasn't fond of Koopa Claw, and did end up liking the Flying Slam more just because I found it satisfying to land.

That said I wouldn't mind at all if they replaced it, though I think it'd be nice if they kept nods to Koopa Claw and Flying Slam in his throws.

I'm somewhat mixed on making too many changes to him at this point though. Even if they drop the seemingly loose wrestler/grappler focus by getting rid of Flying Slam, I'd still like him to keep most of his normals like the new dropkick F-Smash. I agree on buffing Fire Breath though.

The reason I'd rather go with Fire Shot however is because it's more accurate to how he breathes fire in most Mario games. Plus it'd give him a projectile. And even if he did end up getting the hammer, they'd function different enough to warrant both imo. The fire would fly straight forward while the hammer would fly in an arc serving as a tricky projectile with some utility as an anti-air.

 

[FunAtParties]

It is a little odd, but also somewhat fitting to a degree. tbh, I wasn't fond of Koopa Claw, and did end up liking the Flying Slam more just because I found it satisfying to land.

That said I wouldn't mind at all if they replaced it, though I think it'd be nice if they kept nods to Koopa Claw and Flying Slam in his throws.

I'm somewhat mixed on making too many changes to him a this point though. Even if they drop the seemingly loose wrestler/grappler focus by getting rid of Flying Slam, I'd still like him to keep most of his normals like the new dropkick F-Smash. I agree on buffing Fire Breath though.

The reason I'd rather go with Fire Shot however is because it's more accurate to how he breathes fire in most Mario games. Plus it'd give him a projectile. And even if he did end up getting the hammer, they'd function different enough to warrant both imo. The fire would fly straight forward while the hammer would fly in an arc serving as a tricky projectile with some utility as an anti-air.

I'm definitely biased here, but I hate Flying Slam with a seething passion. It just doesn't fit imo, like why does Bowser, a strongheaded brute, decide to do some weird acrobatics out of nowhere. It's one of the most random, weird design choices I've seen yet, I don't know if it's based on anything in the real games, but every time I see it I feel like a robot that just tried to divide something by 0. It makes no sense to me at all, I never use it when playing him (I only autocancel to bait jumps/spotdodges).

Warning: I'm putting too much thought into this.

Personally, I'd love to see attacks like that and nair just get the axe. It's too much flailing for Bowser, a character that I always felt would just do the simplest thing in any given situation. I can understand him going into his shell, because in a situation he's unsure of he can go in this impenetrable fortress covered in powerful spike, and deliver some damage, but him doing weird corkscrews and flips for no reason? I just don't see it.

I liked his old nair, and Koopa Claw worked for me, but as I said I wouldn't mind a second projectile. I think some of the attacks that were changed like bair and Fsmash work either way ( I still don't see why they changed them, but I don't hate the changes by any means). Personally, I think it would be neat to change them back, and turn his side b into the dropkick that you can charge and use anywhere, but that's just me.

 

[Kirbeh]

I'm definitely biased here, but I hate Flying Slam with a seething passion. It just doesn't fit imo, like why does Bowser, a strongheaded brute, decide to do some weird acrobatics out of nowhere. It's one of the most random, weird design choices I've seen yet, I don't know if it's based on anything in the real games, but every time I see it I feel like a robot that just tried to divide something by 0. It makes no sense to me at all, I never use it when playing him (I only autocancel to bait jumps/spotdodges).

Warning: I'm putting too much thought into this.

Personally, I'd love to see attacks like that and nair just get the axe. It's too much flailing for Bowser, a character that I always felt would just do the simplest thing in any given situation. I can understand him going into his shell, because in a situation he's unsure of he can go in this impenetrable fortress covered in powerful spike, and deliver some damage, but him doing weird corkscrews and flips for no reason? I just don't see it.

I liked his old nair, and Koopa Claw worked for me, but as I said I wouldn't mind a second projectile. I think some of the attacks that were changed like bair and Fsmash work either way ( I still don't see why they changed them, but I don't hate the changes by any means). Personally, I think it would be neat to change them back, and turn his side b into the dropkick that you can charge and use anywhere, but that's just me.

That's fair. I like our new upright, drop kicking Bowser, but I totally get the desire to see him act a bit more tanky. I guess I've just gotten used to it by now, but I did prefer his old N-Air as well.

Honestly if it were me, reverting the N-Air, changing his Fire Breath to his actual flame shots, and giving him the hammer would be the only changes he needs. Not entirely related, but I'd like to see them implement his classic voice as well.

It's not really something, I really cared for at first, but now I think it's something they should try doing with him, DK, and Diddy. that said, I think they should us the option to use either.

More or less a toggle for Japanese and English voices for characters like the Star Fox and Fire Emblem cast, and a toggle for Classic and Smash sounds for Bowser, and the Kongs.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Bowser is actually cool the way he is now. If anything make the fire breath and fire ball into one attack. Tap button is ball, hold button is breath.

Flying Slam is also pretty cool. It's kind of dramatic, I like that.

Seriously Bowser has never been better than he is currently so I don't see why he should be changed much, if at all. N Air.. okay. Rest is fine.

 

[Curious Villager]

The only thing I would want from Bowser is to have his actual canon voice rather than the cheap movie monster voice they always seem to give him. (Likewise for DK)

 

[Diddy Kong]

I got used to the grunts really.

Wish that they would seriously rework Samus honestly. She feels way too weak.

Basically the whole Zelda cast but Sheik needs work. I still don't get that SHE was the most revamped out of any Zelda character in Smash Four...

 

[FunAtParties]

Bowser is actually cool the way he is now. If anything make the fire breath and fire ball into one attack. Tap button is ball, hold button is breath.

Flying Slam is also pretty cool. It's kind of dramatic, I like that.

Seriously Bowser has never been better than he is currently so I don't see why he should be changed much, if at all. N Air.. okay. Rest is fine.

I disagree. I just don't think it does him right, he doesn't feel intimidating at all, mostly silly, and don't get me wrong he definitely had his sillier iterations especially in the RPG games, but he's also one of the scariest characters out there when **** gets real.

He's just too friendly now, some of the attacks he does isn't something you expect to see from a character that size and as overconfident as he is. The noises he makes are just watered down and boring, not blood curdling like they used to be. He seems to be designed like the combo bait he is. He feels like a joke to me. I get more disappointed in him every new iteration.

 

[Diddy Kong]

In Melee he was the most combobait he ever was. I don't think current Bowser is badly designed, just extremely silly, yeah. But that's also a way he is. For intimidating, go for Ganondorf. Bowser is pretty action packed, and occasionally a goofball. I say it fits, but he could be a bit less comical I agree. Still, very much think they are gonna change him much. He finally has a functional move set for Massive Hero Soccer Guy's sake!!

 

[Kirbeh]

If I'm quite honest, I've never really seen Bowser as a scary or intimidating character. Tough sure, but he's always been just as much of a goofball, be it the main games, RPGs, sports titles, even in Smash. Subspace and Down Taunt being prime examples. Melee is the game where Bowser is seemingly at his most serious especially because that's when they introduced Giga Bowser.

I'm more in favor of swapping the slam to add in more canon moves, not because I dislike it. That said, if there's one move I actually think needs to be swapped out it's the N-Air, mostly because I just feel it looks unnatural/awkward on him. I'd much prefer if they restored the old one or gave him another new move so long as it fits better.

Only other thing I'd change move wise is the Down Taunt. Never really liked that one.

 

[Chandeelure]

I really don't like that Bowser doesn't have a Fire Ball attack, not even in a throw or something.
And that the shell attacks like Up Special and Down Smash don't have properties like Super Armor or reflecting proyectiles. Up Smash has invincibility, but Bowser is not even in his shell.

I also dislike that Charizard has only two midair jumps and that his jump animation looks way too similar to the midair ones, it's confusing sometimes. Also, Rock Smash is just weird and ugly.

And Jigglypuff has nothing that represents her "new" Fairy type, just adds some sparkles to the most powerful attacks or something.

Oh, and Greninja's Shadow Sneak has some weird white smoke instead of darkness or shadows.
And I hate that the Substitute doesn't have a hitbox like Pac-Man's Hydrant.

And Lucario doesn't run like a ninja like in the movies or anime.

 

[Curious Villager]

I also dislike that Charizard has only two midair jumps and that his jump animation looks way too similar to the midair ones, it's confusing sometimes.

I though I was the only one who thought that. Charizard should really have more mid air jumps, or at least three, it does feel confusing sometimes as I keep thinking that it has at least three like most other multi mid air jumping characters, but end up falling like a brick before I remember that it's the one multi jumper who can only do two.

The fact that it's grounded jump and midair jump animations look similar isn't really helping either....

 

[Kirbeh]

I though I was the only one who thought that. Charizard should really have more mid air jumps, or at least three, it does feel confusing sometimes as I keep thinking that it has at least three like most other multi mid air jumping characters, but end up falling like a brick before I remember that it's the one multi jumper who can only do two.

The fact that it's grounded jump and midair jump animations look similar isn't really helping either....

I somewhat agree, but at the same time think it kind of fits given that it's got stubby legs and is meant to feel sort of heavy, so it makes sense for Charizard to utilize it's wings to to take off from the ground even for it's normal jump. Definitely needs at least one more midair jump though.

 

[Curious Villager]

I somewhat agree, but at the same time think it kind of fits given that it's got stubby legs and is meant to feel sort of heavy, so it makes sense for Charizard to utilize it's wings to to take off from the ground even for it's normal jump. Definitely needs at least one more midair jump though.

I mean, I get that they want to make it feel like a heavyweight, but at least give its mid air jump a different animation so it feels a little less disorienting. Maybe have it show itself carrying itself upward by leaning its head lower or something. It would probably even make it look more like it's trying to carry itself higher with its wings I suppose. Even Dedede can do four mid air jumps, at least allow Charizard to do three.

 

[Kirbeh]

I mean, I get that they want to make it feel like a heavyweight, but at least give its mid air jump a different animation so it feels a little less disorienting. Maybe have it show itself carrying itself upward by leaning its head lower or something. It would probably even make it look more like it's trying to carry itself higher with its wings I suppose. Even Dedede can do four mid air jumps, at least allow Charizard to do three.

That'd probably be a good way to handle it. Either that or have a more pronounced "take off" animation for his grounded jump. It's a stretch but I'd like Charizard to have 4 midair jumps total, though at least 3 would be enough imo.

 

[FunAtParties]

I put too much effort into this not to post it, but I'll probably regret it later anyway...

I can see why people are against me on this Bowser thing. He DOES have a silly side, and I can see how some see him as just "tough" and not so much "intimidating", none of that should be ignored, and it's not, but I think some parts of his personality are played up way too much in his Smash moveset, and I don't think the rest of it got the attention it deserves. Sakurai apparently agreed pre-4 release, as he talked about giving Bowser and Yoshi more attention in an interview. Some of the attention these 2 characters got wasn't all that great though imo. Yoshi's was all bad imo, and Bowser's was more of a mixed bag to me.

Changes from Brawl to 4 via Smash wiki:

Spoiler: Bowser changes

Aesthetics

• Due to the aesthetic used in SSB4, Bowser has a more cartoonish and sleeker design, while his overall color scheme is more vibrant. Additionally, his pupils are smaller. Altogether, these changes make him better resemble his appearances in the latest Mario games.
• Like Yoshi, Bowser's posture is more erect and he has a more "battle ready" stance. This is translated into his moveset, be it through a tweaked animation or a completely new attack.
• Bowser's more erect stance has also resulted in his dashing, rolling, midair jumping, air dodging, crouching and crawling animations being changed. He now dashes upright instead of scuttling, and remains upright instead of retreating into his shell when rolling, jumping or air dodging. His crouch also appears similar to his crouching defense stance from Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story.
• A shadow has been added to the interior of Bowser's shell, which obscures his face (except for his eyes) whenever he retreats into his shell.
• Aside from his star KO voice clip, Bowser's other voice clips from Brawl have been heavily altered.

Attributes

• Like other large characters, such as Donkey Kong and King Dedede, Bowser's general size in proportion to the other playable characters is also greater than in previous installments. This improves his range, but makes his hurtbox larger.
• Bowser is heavier (120 → 130). This improves his survivability, but makes him more susceptible to combos.
• Bowser walks faster (0.8 → 0.858). His walking speed while carrying heavy items also surpasses Donkey Kong's, although Donkey Kong still surpasses him in regard to jumping or falling with them.
• Bowser dashes faster (1.527 → 1.792).
• Bowser's air speed is slower (1.034 → 1.0).
• Bowser's item throw is stronger (1.31432 → 1.33432).
• Double jump is significantly higher.
• Bowser has a new attribute, known as "Tough Guy," which gives him universal light armor against attacks that deal less than 19 units of knockback, such as the first hit of many neutral attacks. It is significantly amplified if Bowser has low damage and/or is crouching, but not while crawling or attacking. The effectiveness of the attribute weakens as Bowser takes more damage, eventually becoming unnoticeable.
• The removal of chain grabbing significantly improves Bowser's survivability.

Ground attacks

• Bowser has a new neutral attack, an alternating pair of punches. Compared to the previous neutral attack's second hit, its second hit deals 1.5% more damage (5% → 6.5%).
• Forward tilt deals 1% more damage (11% → 12%).
• Up tilt deals 3% less damage (12% → 9%) and has increased start-up lag (frame 8 → 11).
• Up tilt has decreased ending lag (FAF 51 → 41) and significantly increased range overall, as it now reaches in front of Bowser.
• Down tilt's second hit has increased range.
• Down tilt's animation has slightly changed. It is now an alternating pair of swiping punches, rather than claw swipes. This animation change also now fully matches its hitboxes, whereas in Brawl, the hitboxes did not cover the entirety of Bowser's hands.
• Bowser has a new dash attack, a side kick. Compared to the previous dash attack, it deals more damage (11% → 12% (clean), 8% → 10% (late)), has more knockback growth (30 → 35), and has significantly more range.
• Dash attack has less base knockback (120 → 110) and more start-up lag (frame 10 → 11) compared to the previous dash attack.
• Bowser has a new forward smash, a dropkick. Compared to the previous forward smash, it has more knockback growth (81 → 98), making it better at KOing. It also has less start-up lag (frame 27 → 22), significantly more range, and better hitbox placements.
• Forward smash has weak hitboxes throughout its later portions that deal 6% less damage than its initial hitboxes (23%/20% → 17%/14%). Compared to the previous forward smash, it has lower knockback, due to its much lower damage output, despite his previous forward smash having less knockback (30 (base)/130 (growth) → 10/103). It also has more ending lag (FAF 67 → 70).
• Forward smash consists of one hit rather than two, similarly to Bowser's forward smash in Melee. Compared to the previous forward smash, its overall damage potential is lower by 14% (46% → 32%). Unlike the previous forward smash, opponents cannot avoid its main KOing hitbox by escaping the weaker initial hit while it still has stronger power.
• Up smash has increased knockback growth (80 (sweetspot)/90 (sourspot) → 90/100), now being the third most powerful up smash in SSB4. Its first hitbox also has a longer duration (frames 16-22 frames → 16-23), its sweetspot can now hit grounded opponents, and it can now clang with aerial attacks, improving its safety.
• Up smash's second hit deals less damage (12%/10% → 6%), significantly hindering its KO potential, despite its increased base knockback (60 → 80).
• Down smash deals 5% less damage (21% → 16%) and has decreased knockback growth (140 → 130), hindering its KO potential.
• Down smash has decreased start-up lag (frame 15 → 10) due to receiving an additional hitbox right before Bowser starts spinning. It is also significantly harder to SDI out of.
• Down smash's angle has been altered (65° → 48°).

Aerial attacks

• Bowser has a new neutral aerial, a cartwheel. Compared to the previous neutral aerial, its overall damage potential is higher by 11% (13% → 24%), its hitbox is larger, it consists of multiple hits, its duration is longer (frames 8-23 → 8-29) and it has less landing lag (24 frames → 20).
• Neutral aerial autocancels later (frame 40> → 45>) than the previous neutral aerial.
• Forward aerial has increased range above and below Bowser. Its sweetspot also takes up a much larger portion of Bowser's arm, granting it edgeguarding potential.
• Forward aerial has increased start-up lag (frame 8 → 11).
• Bowser has a new back aerial, a dropkick. Compared to the previous back aerial, it deals more damage (15%/7% → 19%) and it has different knockback (25 (base)/83 (growth) → 20/88), making it better at KOing. It also has less ending lag (FAF 50 → 45) and can autocancel from a short hop (frame 45> → 31>).
• Back aerial's hitboxes are smaller than the previous back aerial's (9u/5u → 7u/5.5u). It also has a shorter duration (frames 9-16 → 9-11) and more landing lag (35 frames → 40). Unlike the previous back aerial, it lacks a sourspot to keep opponents at bay.
• Up aerial deals 2% less damage (17% → 15%) and has decreased knockback growth (93 → 85), hindering its KO potential. It also has a smaller hitbox (7u → 6u).
• Up aerial has significantly decreased start-up lag (frame 16 → 9).
• Up aerial's animation has slightly changed. Bowser now swings his head in a backward motion, rather than in an overhead arcing motion.
• Down aerial deals 13% less damage (29% → 16%) due to consisting of one hit instead of nine. It also has slightly increased start-up lag (frame 14 → 17).
• Down aerial is now a stall-then-fall instead of a drill. It has a larger hitbox (4u → 7u), increased base knockback (10 → 30), it meteor smashes during its first few frames, deals vertical knockback during its later frames, and produces a shockwave upon landing. Altogether, these changes grant it KO, edgeguarding and anti-juggling potential, and improve its safety while on-stage. Because it is now a stall-then-fall, it can also be used to down aerial stall.
• Down aerial can no longer be canceled until it ends and does not edge sweetspot, significantly hindering its safety while off-stage.

Throws/other attacks

• All grabs have increased ranges, to the point that they are now among the longest ranged non-tether grabs in the game.
• Dash grab has decreased ending lag (FAF 50 → 48).
• Pivot grab has increased start-up (frame 9 → 11) and ending lag (FAF 40 → 46).
• Grabs' animations have changed. Bowser now grabs and holds opponents with one arm, similarly to Koopa Klaw's grab from Melee, rather than clinching them with his arms and mouth. Bowser also no longer falls over when he whiffs a dash grab.
• Forward throw deals 2% more damage (10% → 12%) and has increased knockback growth (50 → 66), now being able to KO (especially with rage) and is now the strongest forward throw in the game.
• Forward throw's animation has slightly changed. Bowser now rears to the side and sways his head upward to throw the opponent, rather than rearing his head downward swinging it upward.
• Bowser has a new back throw, a one-armed throw similar to Donkey Kong's back throw. Compared to the previous back throw, it deals 2% more damage (10% → 12%) and has more knockback growth (50 → 66), now being a reliable KO option (like his forward throw).
• Up throw deals 3.5% less damage (10% → 6.5%).
• Up throw has altered knockback (120 (base)/100 (growth) → 25/180), decreased ending lag (FAF 32 → 25) and its angle has been altered (70° → 82°), granting it significant combo potential.
• Down throw has significantly increased knockback (75 (base)/30 (growth) → 90/80), improving its KO potential.
• Bowser has a new edge attack, an inward slash similar to his 100%+ edge attack in previous games.

Special moves

• Fire Breath now deals consistent damage (2%/1% → 1.2%).
• Fire Breath has larger hitboxes, decreased start-up and ending lag, and increased range.
• Fire Breath's farthest hitboxes no longer cause flinching.
• Fire Breath slightly pushes Bowser back while slightly pushing the opponent away. This hinders its overall damage output, as opponents will not stay trapped for as long as before. However, this improves its safety, as opponents will no longer be able to SDI through Fire Breath to punish Bowser for using it.
• Flying Slam has increased knockback growth (50 → 60), improving its KO potential. Additionally, Bowser is now invincible before he leaves the ground, while a whiffed grab autocancels upon landing for its entire duration, improving its safety. Lastly, Bowser has more control over Flying Slam's trajectory and it received a hitbox during its landing portion that can hit bystanders.
• Flying Slam's grab-box has decreased vertical range, making it more difficult to grab aerial opponents and removing Koopa Hopping.
• Bowsercide now KOs Bowser first and the opponent is released from Flying Slam when this occurs, significantly hindering its utility.
• Grounded Whirling Fortress now hits eight times instead of once, improving its out of shield potential.
• Aerial Whirling Fortress grants significantly more vertical distance via button mashing, ascends faster, and can now grab edges from behind. Altogether, these changes significantly improving its recovery potential.
• Bowser Bomb deals more shield damage (0 → 5). When combined with the changes to shield mechanics, this makes it capable of breaking full shields if all of its hitboxes connect. It also descends faster and Bowser performs it much faster when performed from the ground.
• Giga Bowser's duration has decreased.

Spoiler: How I feel about some of the changes

Aesthetics:

Lots of these are good changes imo. Him standing upright and actually running instead of being motor vehicle were long overdue. All the other animations reflecting on his upright stance work prefectly as well. Outside of the voice clip changes, I feel like these were all great changes. I wanna add that I love the sound effect of Bowser running. It really gives you a good idea of just how massive he is supposed to be, nice touch.

Attributes:

The increased size proportions to other characters was a great change, it helps give him a much more intimidating aura, which I've already said was needed. Great change.
The rest doesn't mean much to me, all balance stuff which isn't really what we're discussing here.

Ground attacks:

• Jab- Jab is a good change, I didn't like the scratches, Bowser is a more brute power kinda guy, he likes to throw hi weight around; punches do that better than scratches. My only criticism is that Jab 2 should be his current Ftilt, then it would be exactly like his SMRPG combo.
• Dtilt- Dtilts slight animation changes were somewhat unnecessary. Yes, I did just say that thing about scratches, but it was going to be a silly, cat-like attack anyway, should just embrace it in that instance. That being said, just a nitpick.
• Dash Attack- Dash attack is not a good change, but the former wasn't good either. Here you have a character who shakes the ground just by moving, and he awkwardly dives out of the way and throws a leg out for his dash attack. As generic and prevelant as the are in Smash, a shoulder bash would be a much better fit for Bowser.
• FSmash- His new FSmash is a neutral change imo. Don't misunderstand me, it's a huge buff for Bowser, but similar changes could have been made for Bowser's old FSmash as well. Also understand that I like his new FSmash and believe it suits his character well, it's just that I don't more than his old one. It's a wash

Aerials:

• Nair- I hate this, a lot. I can't imagine Bowser doing this in battle, and yet here it is. I won't deny him spinning in his shell was too prevalent in his kit, but giving him a generic cartwheel that doesn't even suit him does not seem like a good fix. Personally, I thought his old nair was fine, him 'retreating' to his giant spike covered shell to punish anyone around him makes sense imo, at least more than him flailing his arms about. If we want to change one of those shell attacks, I think Dsmash would be a better choice, more on that later.
• Dair- I wish it was still a drill attack.
• Bair- Not a bad change, but much like his Fsmash kind of an unnecessary one. I like both, think both fit him well, I just don't understand why attention wasn't paid into other areas

..And that's it for Brawl to 4 changes. I think they were mostly good, and they improved Bowser, but there's more to go.

Changes I'd like to see:

• Jab- As mentioned earlier, change jab 2 to his Ftilt, power and all.
• Dash Attack- Shoulder Bash for Dash attack until I can think of something better
• Ftilt- Changed to hammer fist. Bowser slams downward with his fist slamming any opponent down within range. Works much like Falcon's axe kick, but faster with shorter range. If it hits a grounded opponet, they will have the opportunity to tech or will bounce up free for follow up. If landed on an opponent when they're in the air, the will be spiked.
• Utilt- Changed to a quick horn swipe upwards much like the animation for the first hit of his Bowser Bomb. hitbox is directly in front and above him. Very quick with short range, but covers the entire front of his body.
• FSmash- 50/50 on if I want the old one back or if I want to keep this one.
• Dsmash- Bowser reaches out on both sides and scoops up anything around him, slamming them together. If only one opponent in scooped up, he'll scoop up debris in the other hand and slam them into that; if two opponets, he'll slam them into each other.
• Nair- Old nair until better idea.
• Fair- Ryu's dair would fit him well here I think.
• Dair- Back to being a drill, not stall-then-fall
• Bair- 50/50 on if I want his old bair back or if I want to keep the old one.
• Neutral Special- Fire Breath is fine, but it needs more to it. I think it should be a slight charge attack, if you charge it all the way, it becomes a fire ball, if not he just does a short burst of fire breathe. He can no longer keep it out and redirect it.
• Side Special- Rock Throw (Not in love with this idea) Bowser rips out a piece of ground, and throws it at the opponent. If used on a platform he will fall through the platform while performing the throw. He will always throw a giant boulder thats path can be slightly altered. Big damage, but predictable and slow.
• Part of me doesn't want Bowser Bomb because it's such a distinctive attack that I feel Yoshi has on lockdown, that being said I don't think my idea of adding a chargeable dropkick to his special (while re-adding his old Fsmash and bair to his kit) is a suitable change. I'll stick with Bowser Bomb for now.
• Last change I want is his more intimidating shrieks. PM nailed it.

So that's my changes, no they aren't perfect, but in all honesty all I really care about is his Dash attack, Dsmash, Nair, and Flying Slam, the rest I'm just being nitpicky and are just ideas.

 

[Kirbeh]

..And that's it for Brawl to 4 changes. I think they were mostly good, and they improved Bowser, but there's more to go.

Changes I'd like to see:

• Jab- As mentioned earlier, change jab 2 to his Ftilt, power and all.

50/50. I think it could work, but I like the current one-two jab. That said I'd be fine with this change, though my own suggestion would be to make the F-Tilt a proper third hit for Neutral Jab.

• Dash Attack- Shoulder Bash for Dash attack until I can think of something better

If you've ever played/seen Battletoads, I think a headbutt similar to their Battle-Butt would work well for Bowser, albeit without his horns growing giant. Using Skullgirls' Cerebella as an example as I couldn't be bothered to find a good gif/image of the toads.

Spoiler

Or if you'd prefer something with less exaggerated movement, then something like's Birdie's Bull Head could work as well.

• Ftilt- Changed to hammer fist. Bowser slams downward with his fist slamming any opponent down within range. Works much like Falcon's axe kick, but faster with shorter range. If it hits a grounded opponet, they will have the opportunity to tech or will bounce up free for follow up. If landed on an opponent when they're in the air, the will be spiked.

50/50 on this one. I like the idea of a hammer move and would gladly accept it, but I'm fine with his current F-Tilt. Like above though, so long as F-Tilt was still present by merging it into Neutral Jab, then I'd be 100% for it instead of 50/50.

• Utilt- Changed to a quick horn swipe upwards much like the animation for the first hit of his Bowser Bomb. hitbox is directly in front and above him. Very quick with short range, but covers the entire front of his body.

I actually disagree with this one as it feels like it's just a grounded version of his current Up Air. Giving him a hammer move to take advantage of his big/somewhat long arms and then getting rid of the claw swipe seems like a bad move imo. It is more so just my preference though. I'd still like him to retain some claw swipes which are currently only present in Up Tilt and Forward Air.

• FSmash- 50/50 on if I want the old one back or if I want to keep this one.

I'd say keep the new one. I feel it fits his personality more, and it's just more interesting visually imo.

• Dsmash- Bowser reaches out on both sides and scoops up anything around him, slamming them together. If only one opponent in scooped up, he'll scoop up debris in the other hand and slam them into that; if two opponets, he'll slam them into each other.

I agree that he should maybe get a new Down Smash, but making it into a command grab feels weird imo. I'd personally suggest something like an altered version of his stomp from Super Mario Galaxy. He jumps and then stomps as he lands sending out a small shock wave that would pretty much serve as a visual for the moves' hitbox. Your idea gave me an idea that could work as a compromise though.

A few posts ago I mentioned giving Bowser a unique grab system. So now with your Down Smash idea, I was thinking, maybe give Bowser the ability to move when he's grabbed someone like with DK's cargo throw. He's a strong enough character, so it fits, but also give him the ability to grab a second opponent. He can grab two people at once, and his throws are different depending on whether he's got one or two opponents.

DK can carry opponents, and can even throw them in different directions in the air. Bowser's throws would remain grounded, but allow him to grab another opponent if the player wanted to. Granted, to keep it balanced, opponents would be able to escape if he took too long chasing down another player. The higher an opponents damage, the more difficult it is to escape. Grabbing a second opponent would of course be more difficult to do, but the payoff would be stronger throws and the ability to damage two foes at once.

I came up with the following throws:

Single Opponent:

• Forward: His current F-Throw.
• Back: His current B-Throw.
• Up: You're not going to like this one; a weaker, stationary version of Flying Slam. Alternatively, he could use the upwards slash of Koopa Klaw.
• Down: Bowser bites the opponent as a nod to one of the options of his old Koopa Klaw special.

Two Opponents:

• Forward: Bowser would slam the foes together, and release them, with the KB sending them forward.
• Back: Turns around and throws both opponents in quick succession, hitting one with the other.
• Up: Throws both opponents onto his shell and begins spinning. This is his current Up Throw.
• Down: Knocks both opponents to the ground and body slams them. This is his current Down Throw.

• Nair- Old nair until better idea.

Agree.

• Fair- Ryu's dair would fit him well here I think.

Disagree. The move's animation itself probably would lend itself well to Bowser, but I prefer the claw swipe.

• Dair- Back to being a drill, not stall-then-fall

50/50

• Bair- 50/50 on if I want his old bair back or if I want to keep the old one.

Same as FAIR imo. If there was one move in particular I disliked the most about old Bowser it was BAIR. I just didn't like the move in any capacity. The idea of just shoving himself backward to hit with his shell was dull to me when this in concept is already done better by Up Smash imo. Plus the way his shell seemed to bend just looked really off, but that's just me.

• Neutral Special- Fire Breath is fine, but it needs more to it. I think it should be a slight charge attack, if you charge it all the way, it becomes a fire ball, if not he just does a short burst of fire breathe. He can no longer keep it out and redirect it.

I think that could work, but honestly I'd prefer to just give him fireballs like in actual Mario games. More consistent and more accurate to canon. I mean obviously he can just straight up breathe fire, but his most common use of it is by spewing big fireballs.

• Side Special- Rock Throw (Not in love with this idea) Bowser rips out a piece of ground, and throws it at the opponent. If used on a platform he will fall through the platform while performing the throw. He will always throw a giant boulder thats path can be slightly altered. Big damage, but predictable and slow.

Why not just him his hammer if you're going to have another projectile? That said this would make a great custom for given that it's already got Rock Smash.

• Part of me doesn't want Bowser Bomb because it's such a distinctive attack that I feel Yoshi has on lockdown, that being said I don't think my idea of adding a chargeable dropkick to his special (while re-adding his old Fsmash and bair to his kit) is a suitable change. I'll stick with Bowser Bomb for now.

The ground pound is a move used by a ton of characters already in the actual Mario games. Obviously it was a good call not giving it to everyone in Smash, but I think Bowser Bomb should say as it's quite distinctive to him as well being one of his main attacks in Super Mario Bros. 3.

I don't think it hurts to have two similar moves given that it fits both characters very well. I'd argue it may even fit Bowser more as it takes advantage of his size and weight. Yoshi's use of the move is just as fitting of course, and more common, but overall I think the differences between the two are enough and having both is fine.

• Last change I want is his more intimidating shrieks. PM nailed it.

50/50 if only because I actually want both his sounds from the actual Mario games and his more "realistic" Smash ones. A Classic/Smash sound toggle for in addition to an English/Japanese language toggle for

So that's my changes, no they aren't perfect, but in all honesty all I really care about is his Dash attack, Dsmash, Nair, and Flying Slam, the rest I'm just being nitpicky and are just ideas.

 

[ryuu seika]

Also, Rock Smash is just weird and ugly.

Rock Smash is one of his best moves.

 

[FunAtParties]

Few things I'd like to clarify.

-His Dsmash is less a command grab and more a multi hit attack. In one motion he reaches around him and slams whatever he grabs together; the reaching motion will have a slight knockback towards Bowser once he starts bring his arms back towards his body, and the second knockback will occur immediately after once his hands connect at Bowser's body sending the opponent in the opposite direction. The second knockback would be much more powerful.

-Thanks for that Dash Attack, it's a slight variant of a shoulder bash but it works perfectly here.

-I chose Bowser pulling up a boulder for his throw attack because him literally ripping up the ground to hurt his opponent with it seems like a very Bowser thing to do. I'm also not too big a fan of introducing a weapon for just one attack (unless the entire character is based on that like Villager), so this made more sense to me. I added the platform part specifically to make it seem like he was ripping the platform out from underneath him.

-Like I said, the Bowser Bomb thing is hard for me. I'm really not a fan of characters having such similar distinctive attacks. It's different when half the cast is doing a generic roundhouse kick, and doing this. Changing it up a bit could work for Bowser though, going off of RLWP's idea, allowing Bowser to perform the jump midair can separate it further enough to make me less pedantic about it lol. Plus it could give him a recovery mix up, so that's good too.

-The fireball/fire breath charge would be as fast as ZSS' paralyzer gun charge.


Thanks for the genuine response.

Your bair criticism made sense too, I never noticed the weird bend the shell made.

The double grab is actually a very interesting idea, and it really fits his character. Obviously I'm not a huge fan of the single upthrow, but the rest is solid. I don't know how they'd be able to pull off a double grab, but I'd love to see them try.

 

[Kirbeh]

Few things I'd like to clarify.

-His Dsmash is less a command grab and more a multi hit attack. In one motion he reaches around him and slams whatever he grabs together; the reaching motion will have a slight knockback towards Bowser, and the second knockback will occur immediately after at Bowser's body sending the opponent in the opposite direction.

Ah kk, that makes a lot more sense now.

-I chose Bowser pulling up a boulder for his throw attack because him literally ripping up the ground to hurt his opponent with it seems like a very Bowser thing to do. I'm also not too big a fan of introducing a weapon for just one attack (unless the entire character is based on that like Villager), so this made more sense to me.

I think that that line of reasoning still applies to the Rock Throw through. He'd be pulling out a rock just for one attack, and I'd actually liken it more to the Flying Slam or Koopa Klaw since it's another non-canon move more or less pulled out of left field. I think the concept is interesting, but Charizard already sort of does that, and I feel it doesn't suit Bowser quite as well.

-Like I said, the Bowser Bomb thing is hard for me. I'm really not a fan of characters having such similar distinctive attacks. It's different when half the cast is doing a generic roundhouse kick, and doing this. Changing it up a bit could work for Bowser though, going off of RLWP's idea, allowing Bowser to perform the jump midair can separate it further enough to make me less pedantic about it lol. Plus it could give him a recovery mix up, so that's good too.

That's understandable, but I think they're already different enough as they are. Plus in a cast of nearly 60, they're the only two that have a ground pound style move, so I don't really see it as that big a deal especially when we've got 12 Counters in the game. At least the Bowser and Yoshi Bombs function a little differently. Though I do think a few more differences could work like giving Bowser's more armor, stuff like that.

Thanks for the genuine response. Your bair criticism made sense too, I never noticed the weird bend the shell made.
np, it's been a fun discussion and you've got a lot of interesting ideas

 

[FunAtParties]

I guess I see your point on the rock thing, but I disagree it's like pulling out a hammer. Like, a hammer is an actual weapon, it could be used for different purposes, and he's just going to throw it? With the rock what else are you going to do? Slam it over your head?

There are also some different forms of ground pounds in the game. Kirby has one, but it works differently, I think there's more. I'm with you though, it doesn't need to be changed or anything.

 

[ryuu seika]

Rock Smash, as Charizard uses it, is very much in line with his character mechanically, btw. His theming is very much a "I don't care if I take damage, you're going down with me" kind of thing, be it in the form of self harm (Flare Blitz), aggressive use of super armour (Rock Smash) or an oddly good anti-air finisher (Up B) that leaves you helpless if it misses.

But, regarding Bowser having a similar move: No. Bowser doesn't rip the ground. Bowser doesn't spawn boulders. What bowser does is he stomps things until they shatter, causing rocks to forcefully fly into the air, most prominently seen in the Super Mario Galaxy series.

This could potentially be referenced in a very unique throw that, instead of causing knockback, simply does damage and spawns an upward moving platform that will KO at any percent if not escaped quickly (perhaps make this a little slower and include damage scaling hitstun to keep percent relevant).

EDIT: Sorry Zesty, I had a relevant post I wanted to make so edited out my mispost.

 

[Kirbeh]

I guess I see your point on the rock thing, but I disagree it's like pulling out a hammer. Like, a hammer is an actual weapon, it could be used for different purposes, and he's just going to throw it? With the rock what else are you going to do? Slam it over your head?

There are also some different forms of ground pounds in the game. Kirby has one, but it works differently, I think there's more. I'm with you though, it doesn't need to be changed or anything.

I mean if we wanted to get to nitpicky levels of technical you could use a rock as a weapon by repeatedly bashing someone in the head with it like you said, but that kind of violence would probably be too realistic for Smash.

And sure, the hammer could be used as melee weapon, but he's never used like that and neither have the Hammer Bros.or any derivative enemies (I'm a bit less sure on these due to all the RPGs but iirc they just throw them like usual) so I don't see why he couldn't just throw it given that that's how he's always used them.

I did forget about Kirby's use of Stone, so there's another similar move, but otherwise, I think that covers it unless you want to count the Super Dedede Jump, but I think that functions quite a bit differently to count as the same kind of move. And I suppose a few normal attacks like Bayo's DAIR, but that's a bit of a stretch imo.

 

[FunAtParties]

I mean if we wanted to get to nitpicky levels of technical you could use a rock as a weapon by repeatedly bashing someone in the head with it like you said, but that kind of violence would probably be too realistic for Smash.

And sure, the hammer could be used as melee weapon, but he's never used like that and neither have the Hammer Bros.or any derivative enemies (I'm a bit less sure on these due to all the RPGs but iirc they just throw them like usual) so I don't see why he couldn't just throw it given that that's how he's always used them.

I did forget about Kirby's use of Stone, so there's another similar move, but otherwise, I think that covers it unless you want to count the Super Dedede Jump, but I think that functions quite a bit differently to count as the same kind of move. And I suppose a few normal attacks like Bayo's DAIR, but that's a bit of a stretch imo.

I had really thought there were more... huh.

 

[Smashplayer11]

I personally think that is we DO bring back a veterinarian it should be popo not ice Climbers because of the software limitations. So to solve this just put popo in . This will also solve the most hated strategy in melee and brawl.........WOBBLING

 

[Kirbeh]

I personally think that is we DO bring back a veterinarian it should be popo not ice Climbers because of the software limitations. So to solve this just put popo in . This will also solve the most hated strategy in melee and brawl.........WOBBLING

The limitations that kept the Ice Climbers from being included were due to the 3DS. It's generally assumed that they could run in the Wii U version, but it's never been properly disclosed whether or not issues arose in that version as well due to things like 8-Player Smash. Hopefully the Switch is strong enough to handle 8 Ice Climbers, even with items on high and on a busy stage, but we won't know until the next Smash actually comes around. If issues persist it's more than likely that they'll simply be left out again. I agree on getting rid of wobbling though, I just don't think it necessitates turning the Ice Climbers into a lone Ice Climber.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I personally think that is we DO bring back a veterinarian

Doc doesn't have a veterinarian license?