Official Veterans Discussion

[NonSpecificGuy]

But you can't discount their usage of ice because it's just "aesthetics." It makes them stand out just as much as their two-character mechanic.

I don't necessarily agree with that but I guess that's an opinionated statement. I'd say their two in one character is what made them stand out. Far more than them being an ice user.

All I'm trying to say is, I think Sakurai looked at the Ice Climbers not working on the 3DS and decided if he couldn't get the best version of the character he didn't want the character at all. He didn't want to Frankenstein the character for the sake of having him in, thus, I think that's the reason he was cut.

Yeah, it's a damn shame that we lost our only ice user but it's even worse that we lost such a unique character in terms of gameplay. I think in gameplay terms on these things because I think that's how Sakurai thinks when he's making those decisions.

I still think it's crap that even though he could, apparently, get them working on the Wii U he didn't put them in. One exclusive character wouldn't have made that much of a difference in the long run and people who loved Ice Climbers could still have had a chance to play as them. It is what it is though.

 

[Quillion]

Well, there is evidence that the loss of the Ice Climbers allowed for 8-player Smash in the first place. It's said that it was meant to be in as early as Melee, but technical limitations got in the way. And we do know that Nana is a full instance of another character in Melee and Brawl, not an extra "minor" assist like Luma.

16-player would be overkill, so maybe the Switch can render what is technically 16 characters with eight Ice Climbers.

 

[LostAddict]

I'll go on record and say that for the most part, Smash 4 is probably the best balanced in the series; there's clearly an upper tier, but mid tier characters aren't unviable by any means, and with a couple of minor tweaks they could easily match them. However, there's some that need some definite work.

Namely, I think all of the Triforce Wielders need some serious overhauls.
:

• Currently Toon Link is just better.
• Specials with Sheikah Slate
• Attacks/smashes with wide variety of weapons
• Can glide with paraglider in second jump to increase recovery options
• Plays like BotW Link, good at keeping people out of his space with ranged weapons, but is stronger on reaction than rushing in

:

• I love Zelda. But she's currently trash.
• Give her fencing style sword, make a unique dash attack with sword that can be chained rather than just a solo attack, much like fencers
• Weak ground moves that are good for comboing, strong aerials that are good for killing
• Specials are based off of champion's abilities. B, Darude's Protection. Acts like Nayru's love, wider in range, foes outside of range still pushed back. Down B, Mipha's Grace, counter move but heals Zelda rather than harms opponent. Side B, Urbosa's Fury, control Urbosa's spirit, lightning field summoned around her, good for edgeguarding. Up B, Revali's Gale, acts like current up B but can only go Up/Diagonal, still a great killing move with correct read.
• Increase both ground and air speed
• Keep glass cannon idea, but allows for more ways for Zelda to get out of situations with better speed, more ways to stop incoming enemies, and also more moves that can combo into each other to rack up damage.

:

• I love Ganondorf. But he's also trash.
• Literally completely different moveset, the only move that I think should stay is his Side B, but it really suits his character
• I think he should have the ability to create phantom Ganons, a projectile that can be tennis'd, and his trident.
• Just no more Fat Captain Falcon please.

These three are, in my opinion, the veterans other than Jigglypuff who need the most work in the next Smash game. I really hope they do something to really make them viable fighters rather than them being relegated to the bottom tier for the third generation in a row. (Yes, I know Link isn't bottom tier, but he doesn't really play like 'himself', at least to me, and that's more what I mean.)

 

[ryuu seika]

My thoughts:

General idea on Link is cool but his specials are what make him as a character. Instead, to reference BotW, I would suggest that we tweak arrows by reducing his fall speed while charging, tweak bombs by making a second use of the move instantly detonate them and have cryosis replace his grab.
Cryosis would have a full line of sight range but completely freeze the opponent for a short time, rather than acting like a normal grab, which could be shortened further by mashing inputs. This makes it largely ineffective against distant targets.
Its main use, as in its source game, would be to allow the player to stack knockback for when their opponent gets out but I could easily see a <1 multiplier or non-linear stacking making an appearance for balance reasons. Damage dealt to frozen foes would be reduced to pummel level.
This does allow for and even promote rushing in but not from great distance or the opponent will unfreeze too soon and be able to outmaneuver Link.

Regarding Zelda, I'm loving the idea of a lunge that cancels end lag into itself. That's genious. The rest seems very game specific but then so was her old set and it's otherwise great. I like it but be careful with those combos.

Ganondorf's Side B is the choke hold, right? That should stay.
I'd like to see the projectile and reflector be seperate moves, with him using his weapon to reflect any non-solid projectile.
Other than those, do whatever you like. Ganondorf needs a tonne of work.

 

[DutchPichu]

Just a little fun question... Do you guys think that Samus/Zamus and Zelda/Sheik should remain splitted for Smash 5 or should they come back together in one slot?

I think Sakurai will keep them splitted actually. That's for me the best option too because I didn't like the transformation gimmick.

 

[ryuu seika]

Sheik has no reason to exist on her own, though.

 

[DutchPichu]

But Dr. Mario has no reason to exist on his own, too.

 

[Luminario]

I'd really rather not have any Zelda/Sheik transforming gimmicks again, one character usually outshines the other and it's always just a mess.
We can definitely get a character that changes specials though, I'd say that would be pretty fun without straying too far into "2 separate characters" ground.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I'd rather it stay the way it is right now. The fact that they have their own Down Specials basically kills the transformation coming back argument dead anyways.

 

[Quillion]

If they're going to reintroduce transformation, I'd say introduce transformation by taunting. Just provide an exception to the online taunting limit for transformation, and it can work.

 

[kirbstr]

Look, I understand being "gameplay-first." I was extremely gameplay-first for a long time.

But you can't discount their usage of ice because it's just "aesthetics." It makes them stand out just as much as their two-character mechanic.

But their usage of Ice has nothing to do with the reason they were added into the game. They were added to melee because Sakurai wanted a retro character to put back into the spotlight and thought that replicating the teamwork of Ice Climber into the ice climbers would make a good character. They are two characters in one, you can't have just one because it goes against the reason they are even a character in the first place. Ganondorf was an extremely iconic character that needed representation in smash for branding and marketing, so falcondorf was created. Ice climbers being in the game wouldn't be a selling point because kids these days have no idea what an ice climber even is. Sakurai could've easily added any other ice using character to the roster for smash 4 if that was a reasoning behind them being in previous games.

If they're going to reintroduce transformation, I'd say introduce transformation by taunting. Just provide an exception to the online taunting limit for transformation, and it can work.

That wasn't the problem with transformations, it was that one character would always outshine the other and the other one would never be played. Also, if they transform that way than they should just have there own slot imo.

 

[Quillion]

kirbstr : Zelda's inclusion on the roster in the first place was entirely because of her transformation gimmick. It was done without regard to how the Zelda/Sheik duality would become outdated soon after OoT, but they carried it into Brawl regardless.

Due to the 3DS lacking the processing power to seamlessly transform characters, the two were split. They made Zelda and Sheik work despite their old gimmick being the whole reason they were included in the first place. ZSS was split off of Samus for similar reasons. Most people seem to agree that the characters are more fun because of what they did to work around technical limitations.

I still don't see any reason why the ICs could not have gotten a solo workaround.

 

[Zerp]

It goes against Mr. Sakurai's philosophy of both versions having the exact same characters but I still think the best solution for the Ice Climbers in Smash 4 would've been to have a heavily buffed SoPo/SoNa on the 3DS version, and to restore the amount of climbers to 2 while getting rid of the 3DS version buffs for them on the Wii-U version.

 

[kirbstr]

kirbstr : Zelda's inclusion on the roster in the first place was entirely because of her transformation gimmick. It was done without regard to how the Zelda/Sheik duality would become outdated soon after OoT, but they carried it into Brawl regardless.

Due to the 3DS lacking the processing power to seamlessly transform characters, the two were split. They made Zelda and Sheik work despite their old gimmick being the whole reason they were included in the first place. ZSS was split off of Samus for similar reasons. Most people seem to agree that the characters are more fun because of what they did to work around technical limitations.

I still don't see any reason why the ICs could not have gotten a solo workaround.

Again, because IC's aren't iconic enough to exist without their gimmick. Zelda is Zelda and Sheik is from OoT and has made a few appearances outside of smash. The ZSS gimmick was removed to make her character more available and less confusing for new players. She has also made several appearances in her own games (+fanservice if you want to go there). Charizard was kept in do to him being a very iconic pokemon (where as squirtle and ivysaur were cut). Do you see the pattern? All of these characters were deserving enough to be in smash bros without needing their gimmick to go with them. IC's NEED their gimmick to be relevant, they are obscure characters that almost no one under the age of 30 knows about and haven't made an appearance outside of smash bros in the last 25+ years. Their character was basically their gimmick and they boiled down to "those characters in smash who can wobble/chaingrab and are really annoying to fight." Even if the smash community gave them enough relevance to warrant a work around, Sakurai probably didn't have faith in the general consumer base to care about these obscure characters without their signature gimmick.

 

[Quillion]

Not iconic, not iconic, not iconic...

Ness, Captain Falcon and pre-Awakening Fire Emblem would like to have a word with you.

 

[Luminario]

Ness, Captain Falcon and pre-Awakening Fire Emblem would like to have a word with you.

They haven't been changed at all since their debut though.
kirbstr is making a valid point. Zelda, Sheik, Samus, ZSS, and Charizard were all part of the transformation gimmick, but they're all also stand-alone characters that you could go entire matches without changing and whose transformations were holding back (especially Charizard thanks to that god awful exhaustion gimmick). ICs however, the pair mechanic was integral to their fighting style with no way around it. It was either both ICs or nothing.

 

[ryuu seika]

I would argue that Sheik is far less iconic than Zelda and probably wouldn't have been deserving of a slot herself were she not an established Smash fighter.

Captain Falcon was a quick addition to 64 because his body fit the prototype male build but, as the star of a highly popular N64 racing game and its amazing gamecube sequel, I think he warranted reinclusion in Melee.

Ness and Marth, IDK.

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

My feelings on BOTW and Link:
BOTW is a very diverse game, with tons of things that you can do. It is practically impossible to complete it, 100% in under a week. Just ask Jirard. For this reason, I feel like BOTW Link, or "Wild Link" would be a fine addition to the roster.
"UHH, Victory, we already had Link clones in Melee, and now we have Toon Link, u filthy skrub!"
Strangely, I feel that Wild Link should share no moves with OG Link. The Sheikah Slate would function prefectly as special moves, and Wild Link could be more primitive as well as diverse in his weapon usage.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Just a little fun question... Do you guys think that Samus/Zamus and Zelda/Sheik should remain splitted for Smash 5 or should they come back together in one slot?

I think Sakurai will keep them splitted actually. That's for me the best option too because I didn't like the transformation gimmick.

I'd rather it stay the way it is right now. The fact that they have their own Down Specials basically kills the transformation coming back argument dead anyways.

They could map the transformation to one of their taunts. That way none of their options are killed because of novelties. It'd be an interesting thing to do for the Pokémon Trainer too. (Not that they'd add him or anything.) They'd also have to give the transformations more invincibility frames so they aren't puppy guarded to death every time someone makes the switch.

I would argue that Sheik is far less iconic than Zelda and probably wouldn't have been deserving of a slot herself were she not an established Smash fighter.

I would have to agree. (That's not to say I would want to see her go though.) Shiek has only appeared in 2 games, her debut, and a spin off many years later. It's a shame though, as they could definitely do some cool things with her so long as they don't try to make her identity a big reveal. Buuuut I'm getting off topic here.

My feelings on BOTW and Link:
BOTW is a very diverse game, with tons of things that you can do. It is practically impossible to complete it, 100% in under a week. Just ask Jirard. For this reason, I feel like BOTW Link, or "Wild Link" would be a fine addition to the roster.
"UHH, Victory, we already had Link clones in Melee, and now we have Toon Link, u filthy skrub!"
Strangely, I feel that Wild Link should share no moves with OG Link. The Sheikah Slate would function prefectly as special moves, and Wild Link could be more primitive as well as diverse in his weapon usage.

If he had the ability to change play styles by switching weapons, I think he would be really cool (though he will almost definitely have a poor reception). Also if his splash text isn't "A Wild Link appeared!" I will riot.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

I'd like to think everyone from Smash 4 will return, but I think Dark Pit might be the first one cut from the next game.

Dr Mario might be in the game in some way, whether it's a color swap or his own character.

I'd like to see Pichu return just for laughs, but I don't talk about that very often.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Now that I've played a little Uprising, I very much want Dark Pit to stay actually. He has enough merrit to be a semi clone. I think him and Lucina have enough potential to be more unique than in Smash 4.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

The "first one to go" is really subjective and honestly, there's no way we could really tell. Out of all the clones in Brawl I would've said Too Link would've been the first to go, due to him being the most clone of a character. Lucas and Wolf are easily more unique than him.

Of course then he got REAL lucky that his relevancy took a nice bump with Wind Waker HD.

I also never thought they would actually cut Ice Climbers, or Ivysaur and Squirtle due to them being individual, unique characters but it happened. I guess it was beneficial for me, in a way, that throughout Sm4sh speculation everyone hated on Snake which in a way broke down my optimism a bit and made the cut a little more bearable. But even still of all the characters cut throughout Smash I feel like Smash 4 took the hardest hit from Brawl.

I won't be surprised if the same happens with a Smash 5 which is why I would prefer a enhanced port but that's just me.

 

[ryuu seika]

Smash simply can't get the number of newcomers we expect without either cutting oldies or increasing development time a tonne I guess.

Even without Windwaker HD, though, Toon Link is the face of the entire handheld side of the series. Wolf was an important character but not a fun addition to the roster. Isaac is someone most people (myself included) don't really know.

Isaac I could easily see being cut but I can understand why those who know Earthbound might have different opinions on the matter. Wolf I kinda wanted rid of but could never have predicted. Sakurai just wasn't happy with him, apparently.

 

[Quillion]

As long as they do a bit of code recycling, vets can be easily ported from Smash 4 to Switch.

Of course, this is assuming they won't change a thing about the vets, and I know some people want the vets revamped to various degrees.

Speaking of, I have several of changes in mind for Samus now that Samus Returns is out.

• Projectile Normals: I hope this goes without saying at this point, but Samus NEEDS projectile normals if they want to make her both a more viable fighter AND more distinct from ZSS. Just change the following moves:
  • Neutral A: Change to Punch, Kick, then rapid fire Short Beam, similar to G&W's jab.
  • F-Tilt: Change this to F-Smash's current animation (I'll get to F-Smash in a second).
  • U-Smash: Change this awful move to a powerful upward shot.
  • F-Air: Change to diagonal downard rapid Short Beam shots.
  • U-Air: Change to upward rapid Short Beam shots.
  • B-Air: Change to backward mid-power Short Beam shot.
  • D-Air: Change to downward mid-power Short Beam shot.
• Melee Counter: Make this her F-Smash. Without the countering thing, of course, but just do the "pistol whip" thing and make it deal heavy knockback normally.
• Shinespark: Change the Dash Attack to reference it. Have her leave afterimages and deal fire damage.
• Throws: Base them off of the Melee Counter animations.
  • Pummel: Samus shoots missiles point-blank into enemy while holding onto them.
  • F-Throw: Samus shoots a Super Missile point-blank while letting go of the enemy.
  • D-Throw: Samus knocks the enemy on the ground and shoots Super Missles point-blank into them.
  • B-Throw: Samus swings around the enemy and shoots missiles into their back.
  • U-Throw: Generally fine as it is, but change it so that an explosion appears when Samus throws the enemy up.
• Final Smash: Change to "Aeion Burst". Samus activates Phase Drift (slows time), Lightning Armor (invincible and hurts enemies), and Beam Burst (changes A and B attack to a powerful volley of lasers) at the same time for 10 seconds.

Huh, this is probably more changes than what I have in mind for Ganondorf.

 

[Curious Villager]

Wait, are you guys referring to Lucas? Where is Isaac coming from? (Unless you're talking about the Brawl Assist Trophy)

Considering we got the Spirit Tracks stage on the 3DS version and how the roster was decided before the idea of Wind Waker HD even crossed the mind of the Zelda team, I'm pretty sure Sakurai already had his mind set on bringing Toon Link back regardless of his game's remake. Especially since he feels that having a younger Link in Smash was important to him.

 

[SomeRandomBoy]

tbh, i don't care about who returns or who gets cut, as long as people don't call Wolf a clone. when will people realise that he's not a clone? Also, Game & Watch better not be cut or i'm setting someone on fire.

 

[kirbstr]

Smash simply can't get the number of newcomers we expect without either cutting oldies or increasing development time a tonne I guess.

Then they won't add many newcomers or will recycle code, they wouldn't cut characters that they spent so much time developing before just to make stuff easier. People would lynch the smash dev team if they found out that the reason that they cut characters was to make development time shorter. I'm pretty sure people would rather have all their favorite characters in the game over it launching sooner. They could also always increase the amount of people working on the game as well or have free updates that add veterans that were still in development during the launch period if they really wanted to get it out early which I doubt they will do. Sakurai has never been one to value a quick launch over game quality and quantity. He takes his sweet time with every project he works on. Just look at Uprising, it took him 26 years to make the sequel to Kid Icarus. kappa.

Wolf was an important character but not a fun addition to the roster.

That's subjective. I loved wolf and to this day he is my favorite character to play in any smash game. No one really knows why he was cut, I assume it has to do with them not having time to put him into the initial game and then wanting to put recourses into new characters over returning veterans for DLC.

Isaac I could easily see being cut but I can understand why those who know Earthbound might have different opinions on the matter.

I assume you mean Lucas. He is an iconic character from Mother 3 and is a fan-favorite among the Smash community. The only reason you could easily see him cut is because you most likely don't like the character, which is just your bias showing.

 

[Quillion]

I'll be honest, even though I do like Wolf, I think his moveset is/was... disappointing.

Don't get me wrong, Wolf having specials derived from Fox kinda makes sense (at least more sense than it does Ganondorf having derived specials AND some normals from Captain Falcon), but ever since Star Fox Assault came out and showed us other things Star Fox characters could be capable of, Wolf's specials being another form of "Laser, Reflector, Forward Dash Attack, 8-way Dash Attack" leaves a lot to be desired.

Credit where credit is due: I do like how his normals use his claws and are more divergent from Fox's normals than even Falco's. But still, I want those normals paired with a special set that does something entirely different from Fox and not just another tweaked version of his special set.

I believe ryuu seika put it best: it really is painful to see a character with such potential be wasted on a portrayal that leaves much to be desired, and even more so with Sakurai's unwillingness to revamp certain characters (like Ganondorf) in spite of significant demand.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I have a problem with the fact that, in my opinion, it feels like Falco only got in over Wolf due to seniority and that just kinda rubs me the wrong way. Falco isn't as much of a clone as he used to be, I get that, but his play style is still incredibly similar to Fox, fast, rushdown sort of character. Wolf was more of a heavyweight in comparison.

If you lined up the two side by side and judged them on just gameplay and was trying to decide which one defers from Fox the most, most people would gravitate to Wolf. Because, even taking into account that they both share the same specials as Fox, you can differentiate Wolf's specials from Fox's better than you would Falco's from Fox's. That also stretches into his standard attacks. The d-smash, dash attack, and u-air for example are all nearly identical between Falco and Fox but is not with Wolf.

All things considered there's only two logical reasons that Falco was chosen over Wolf. Seniority and design. I can see that some people may feel that Fox and Wolf are too similar design wise but other than design Falco is far more similar. Do I think Wolf needs an overhaul like Quillion says? No I don't. I think Falco deserves it. Falco deserves better specials than what he has now. He's incredibly similar to Fox and he deserves to stand out among the cast more than he does. For Wolf, I dunno, change his Down special from a reflector to something else and wam bam he's ready to go, he's already different enough gameplay wise from Fox to justify his place. Falco really doesn't though. There's no reason for him to be as similar to Fox as he has been for the past 3 games.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

fast, rushdown sort of character.

Falco isn't fast or a rush down character anymore. He was in Melee, but in Brawl and Smash 4, naw fam.

Falco's a combo machine sure, but he isn't one due to speed.

There's no reason for him to be as similar to Fox as he has been for the past 3 games.

I'm actually gonna disagree here.

Aside from a two specials, Falco is really different from Fox. Most of his normals are function and look different since Brawl. He's about as unique as Lucas is now.

 

[Quillion]

Falco being derivative of Fox is fine, IMO, but Wolf being derivative isn't.

Given that Falco is already a slower version of Fox with stronger attacks and a better projectile, Wolf being the same, except slightly slower and more powerful, doesn't make sense. Falco and Wolf have no reason to coexist on the roster.

That said, I agree Falco should have been cut instead of Wolf because at least Wolf was the more unique of the two.

 

[SomeRandomBoy]

If wolf returns for the next smash, i'm putting team--8 player smash(assuming that 8-player smash is in the next smash) just to watch 7 level 9 wolfs beat up falco clonebardi. at least i can see 3 wolfs beat falco in brawl.

 

[ryuu seika]

Wait, are you guys referring to Lucas? Where is Isaac coming from? (Unless you're talking about the Brawl Assist Trophy)

Yes, I was just using the name provided by the previous poster because I forgot the real one.

tbh, i don't care about who returns or who gets cut, as long as people don't call Wolf a clone. when will people realise that he's not a clone? Also, Game & Watch better not be cut or i'm setting someone on fire.

Wolf's specials are about as unique as Falco's and less original, given that two characters beat him to them instead of just one. I hear his A moves are ripped from non-spacies but, honestly, they look so generic that they could be anyone's. He sure feels like a clone from what I played of him.

He is an iconic character from Mother 3 and is a fan-favorite among the Smash community. The only reason you could easily see him cut is because you most likely don't like the character, which is just your bias showing.

Yes and I tried to make that clear in my post. My lack of character knowledge makes him seem irrelevant. Thus I cannot fairly judge his worth but you sound a bit biased the other way yourself.

I believe ryuu seika put it best: it really is painful to see a character with such potential be wasted on a portrayal that leaves much to be desired, and even more so with Sakurai's unwillingness to revamp certain characters (like Ganondorf) in spite of significant demand.

From what I heard, this was exactly why Wolf didn't come back.
I didn't keep the source so take it with a pinch of salt but apparently Sakurai didn't feel able to change Wolf's moves and wasn't comfortable with how he'd turned out.

As for the Falco/Wolf debate, I have no real preference. Both are major characters in the Starfox series and, while I didn't appreciate Wolf's inclusion in Brawl, that was largely due to him being yet another Fox/Falco. Without Falco that wouldn't be an issue.

Krystal, though, clearly has more gameplay potential than either.

 

[kirbstr]

Wolf's specials are about as unique as Falco's and less original, given that two characters beat him to them instead of just one. I hear his A moves are ripped from non-spacies but, honestly, they look so generic that they could be anyone's. He sure feels like a clone from what I played of him.

Falco being derivative of Fox is fine, IMO, but Wolf being derivative isn't.

Given that Falco is already a slower version of Fox with stronger attacks and a better projectile, Wolf being the same, except slightly slower and more powerful, doesn't make sense. Falco and Wolf have no reason to coexist on the roster.

Wolf was added late into development, so a lot of his attacks were borrowed from sonic and other characters. His specials are far more unique than Falco's in terms of function, and at least they look different from the casual perspective. In terms of how he plays, he is much different from Campy Falco and Rushdown Fox. He is more of a spacing based character that can put together powerful strings from close range. While his character archetype was borrowed from Falco slightly, what more can you do? Fox is the speedy rushdown while falco was the slower spacer/camper. How could you make another spacie (shine/laser/phantasm) without making him more similar to Falco? While he could've been so much more, he was a last minute addition, so it's not like he could've been better.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Falco isn't fast or a rush down character anymore. He was in Melee, but in Brawl and Smash 4, naw fam.

Falco's a combo machine sure, but he isn't one due to speed.


I'm actually gonna disagree here.

Aside from a two specials, Falco is really different from Fox. Most of his normals are function and look different since Brawl. He's about as unique as Lucas is now.

You're probably right. I'm just going by what I've seen from an observer point of view. Wolf was literally the only Star Fox character I actually used so, I may be off a bit.

My point is still that I feel like in comparison Wolf was more noticably different than Falco. Simply due to the way he moved, stood, attacked, etc. and with him being a rather slow powerhouse type character. Falco on the other hand, as you said, is like Fox where they both are intended to rack up damage rather quickly through combos and while Wolf had combos that wasn't his focus.

Yes, I was just using the name provided by the previous poster because I forgot the real one.

Yep, my B on that one. Must've had Isaac in my mind for some reason.

Wolf's specials are about as unique as Falco's and less original, given that two characters beat him to them instead of just one. I hear his A moves are ripped from non-spacies but, honestly, they look so generic that they could be anyone's. He sure feels like a clone from what I played of him.

Non-spacies? Not familiar with that term honestly. And ripped from others? That sounds rather strange. I will say that Wolf's a moves match his character build quite well and calling them generic is really not doing them justice. Most of his attacks are generally based around the use of his claws. Falco used his wings on his in the same way if I recall, the only outliers being his dash and... b-air(?) Not for sure.

From what I heard, this was exactly why Wolf didn't come back.
I didn't keep the source so take it with a pinch of salt but apparently Sakurai didn't feel able to change Wolf's moves and wasn't comfortable with how he'd turned out.

I feel like this might be another Ganondorf reminds Sakurai of his dad type things. Urban myth type deal. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though, that's still a better reason than what Ridley fans got and WAY better than what Snake fans got as in nothing. However, if that were the case that is not the best reason for a cut. People obviously love the character and his gameplay style so cutting him for the sake of not being happy with how he turned out is like telling his fans that they shouldn't like him because he wasn't hard to make.

I think it was just time. Not enough development time, low priority. The fact that he wasn't added through DLC, well, @GoldenYuiitusin said it best. He just wasn't AS popular as Lucas do Lucas got in over him as the Brawl rep. Roy was obviously the most popular Melee rep aside from the gigaton that was Mewtwo so he ended up being the Melee rep.

Krystal, though, clearly has more gameplay potential than either.

Yep, agreed but that character has nearly been retconned from existence since Miyamoto got his way so she's more unlikely than she's ever been. Sadly.

 

[Quillion]

Wolf was added late into development, so a lot of his attacks were borrowed from sonic and other characters. His specials are far more unique than Falco's in terms of function, and at least they look different from the casual perspective. In terms of how he plays, he is much different from Campy Falco and Rushdown Fox. He is more of a spacing based character that can put together powerful strings from close range. While his character archetype was borrowed from Falco slightly, what more can you do? Fox is the speedy rushdown while falco was the slower spacer/camper. How could you make another spacie (shine/laser/phantasm) without making him more similar to Falco? While he could've been so much more, he was a last minute addition, so it's not like he could've been better.

If you're going to be that reductive, Smash doesn't need any other characters besides DK, Fox, and Mario because they already fulfill the basic archetypes by themselves.

They really shouldn't have added Wolf at all if they were just going to make him another "Blaster, Reflector, Dash, 8-way Dash" character.

Krystal, though, clearly has more gameplay potential than either.

Nah, I don't like Krystal. There are ways to diversify Star Fox's representation without including her for the sake of her one-shot staff moves (which were used by Fox anyway).

 

[kirbstr]

If you're going to be that reductive, Smash doesn't need any other characters besides DK, Fox, and Mario because they already fulfill the basic archetypes by themselves.

They really shouldn't have added Wolf at all if they were just going to make him another "Blaster, Reflector, Dash, 8-way Dash" character.

That wasn't my point. My point was that for a "Spacie" type character (blaster, shine, Star Fox), there was no other kind of archetype he could fill that wasn't similar to Falco without making his specials radically different. Also, as I said before, he was added later to development. This means that, like Falco in Melee, he would borrow moves from Fox and other characters in order to be able to be in the game.

Wolf was an awesome character that managed to be unique despite his semi-clone status. They added him because he was an iconic character from Star Fox that they thought they could do something with even though they had limited recourses. It's dumb to say he shouldn't have been in the game at all if he would be that way because then there just would've been one less character in Brawl.

 

[Quillion]

Wolf was an awesome character that managed to be unique despite his semi-clone status. They added him because he was an iconic character from Star Fox that they thought they could do something with even though they had limited recourses. It's dumb to say he shouldn't have been in the game at all if he would be that way because then there just would've been one less character in Brawl.

I believe ryuu seika put it best: it really is painful to see a character with such potential be wasted on a portrayal that leaves much to be desired, and even more so with Sakurai's unwillingness to revamp certain characters (like Ganondorf) in spite of significant demand.

Again, even though Wolf's semi-clone status kinda makes sense, it doesn't stop it from being disappointing.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Again, even though Wolf's semi-clone status kinda makes sense, it doesn't stop it from being disappointing.

I guess that's kind of subjective. I love the character. Exactly how he is. I was never, and will never, be disappointed in him or his gameplay. I thought he was perfect but I guess that's just my opinion. I'll admit that he's cloney but I think he's one of the best ones.

 

[ryuu seika]

The best clone was and always will be Pichu, just because of how much his unique gimmick changed his fighting style.
Yes, he needs work to become a balanced character but that doesn't mean he doesn't have potential.