Official Veterans Discussion

[Quillion]

There was an interview he did with Famitsu a few years ago in which he explains that he originally added him in last second to melee so that people wouldn't be upset that he wasn't in the game. He then explained that as the years went on and he developed the character more, he started to draw connections between the way ganondorf handled in smash and his late father and couldn't bring himself to change the character. I also think he "mained" him in brawl. So it just boils down to a lot of personal bias.

EDIT: Couldn't find the origional article, here is a link to an image of a translation: http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/847/294/29b.png

You can't find the original article because it's fake. It's just a troll post.

Same thing happened with the "interview" that said Wario wasn't a Mario clone in Melee because he "deserved better."

 

[Swamp Sensei]

In canon? Maybe. In Smash Bros gameplay? Hell no.

Errr...

Ike has a sword that hits like a truck.

How does that not fit a zweihandler?

There aren't many projectiles in Soul Calibur so it would hardly be relevant if nightmare did but no. That was a suggestion for a uniquely Ganondorf element. The batting back and forth of energy projectiles is probably the most consistent part of his fighting style.

Ah. Bit awkwardly phrased there.

The "smart thing" is quite debatable. Yes, there is an element of intelligence to easing people through the decloning process but, if it's still going to be decades before we see anything even remotely resembling an actual Ganondorf, was it really that smart to add him in the first place?

I say yes.

Even if it isn't the super canonical Ganondorf you wanted. Our current Ganon still gives us a completely unique gameplay style in smash and made a lot of people happy.

This is why I hate all those "clones take no time to make, we lose nothing by having them in the game" comments. We've already lost the possibility of a real Ganondorf any time in the foreseeable lifetime of the franchise, what more is needed for them to accept that non-Pichu clones are bad.

But they aren't bad. They just are.

 

[kirbstr]

You can't find the original article because it's fake. It's just a troll post.

Same thing happened with the "interview" that said Wario wasn't a Mario clone in Melee because he "deserved better."

awww darn it, you didn't fall for it.

He probably just keeps him that way because it's easy. Your guess is as good as mine.

 

[Quillion]

awww darn it, you didn't fall for it.

Then why did you even try in the first place? Don't do that; the internet helps us find sources better than you might think.
____

Ganondorf aside, he's not the only character whose portrayal is unfaithful, retroactively or not. I have a lot of changes in mind for other characters.

• Wario: Just change his Dash Attack into his... Dash Attack. Yes, I know that some people want the shoulder move to be his Side-B, but I think it will work just fine as his Dash Attack. That's it; no more changes are needed. Plus, we have both the bike and the shoulder.
• Samus: NEEDS PROJECTILE NORMALS. It's really unfair that Mega Man and Mii Gunner (and Villager to a lesser extent) get extensive projectile usage for their normals, yet Samus doesn't. It would help fix her tier position AND make her distinct from Zamus.
• Donkey Kong: I've seen some people say that he wants more punching, but the only thing I want is for him to get a freaking projectile. I don't care if it's the Barrel Throw or Coconut Gun, he needs a projectile of some kind.
• Roy: Add a fire sword beam to his Flare Blade. Just a small touch that would help a lot on two fronts (canon and as a fighter).
• Zelda: Depends. If we're sticking with TP Zelda, it's best that we give her her sword (maybe even when not TP Zelda). But I'd more like to see her turn into another projectile normal character using her bow (using Dynasty Warriors logic where Bow-wielders have short range and no windups). It would help justify her light weight a lot better.
• Mewtwo: Change his non-Shadow Ball attacks to use magenta energy. It's not a ghost type.
• Sonic: He has two spin dashes, and in Smash 4, they're even less different than in Brawl. Swap his Side-B with the Super Peel-Out or Boost (maybe combine both into one move).
• Mario: Probably who I want changed most. Swap the U-Smash out for an overhead Hammer slam. Change d-air to Goomba Stomp. Change Side-B to Star Spin. Change Down-B to Ground Pound.

I'll probably post more if I think of them.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Then why did you even try in the first place? Don't do that; the internet helps us find sources better than you might think.
____

Ganondorf aside, he's not the only character whose portrayal is unfaithful, retroactively or not. I have a lot of changes in mind for other characters.

• Wario: Just change his Dash Attack into his... Dash Attack. Yes, I know that some people want the shoulder move to be his Side-B, but I think it will work just fine as his Dash Attack. That's it; no more changes are needed. Plus, we have both the bike and the shoulder.
• Samus: NEEDS PROJECTILE NORMALS. It's really unfair that Mega Man and Mii Gunner (and Villager to a lesser extent) get extensive projectile usage for their normals, yet Samus doesn't. It would help fix her tier position AND make her distinct from Zamus.
• Donkey Kong: I've seen some people say that he wants more punching, but the only thing I want is for him to get a freaking projectile. I don't care if it's the Barrel Throw or Coconut Gun, he needs a projectile of some kind.
• Roy: Add a fire sword beam to his Flare Blade. Just a small touch that would help a lot on two fronts (canon and as a fighter).
• Zelda: Depends. If we're sticking with TP Zelda, it's best that we give her her sword (maybe even when not TP Zelda). But I'd more like to see her turn into another projectile normal character using her bow (using Dynasty Warriors logic where Bow-wielders have short range and no windups). It would help justify her light weight a lot better.
• Mewtwo: Change his non-Shadow Ball attacks to use magenta energy. It's not a ghost type.
• Sonic: He has two spin dashes, and in Smash 4, they're even less different than in Brawl. Swap his Side-B with the Super Peel-Out or Boost (maybe combine both into one move).
• Mario: Probably who I want changed most. Swap the U-Smash out for an overhead Hammer slam. Change d-air to Goomba Stomp. Change Side-B to Star Spin. Change Down-B to Ground Pound.

I'll probably post more if I think of them.

I mostly fully agree. Especially on Samus. But the Mario changes are also very cool and definitely welcome.

 

[Deleted member]

Then why did you even try in the first place? Don't do that; the internet helps us find sources better than you might think.
____

Ganondorf aside, he's not the only character whose portrayal is unfaithful, retroactively or not. I have a lot of changes in mind for other characters.

• Wario: Just change his Dash Attack into his... Dash Attack. Yes, I know that some people want the shoulder move to be his Side-B, but I think it will work just fine as his Dash Attack. That's it; no more changes are needed. Plus, we have both the bike and the shoulder.
• Samus: NEEDS PROJECTILE NORMALS. It's really unfair that Mega Man and Mii Gunner (and Villager to a lesser extent) get extensive projectile usage for their normals, yet Samus doesn't. It would help fix her tier position AND make her distinct from Zamus.
• Donkey Kong: I've seen some people say that he wants more punching, but the only thing I want is for him to get a freaking projectile. I don't care if it's the Barrel Throw or Coconut Gun, he needs a projectile of some kind.
• Roy: Add a fire sword beam to his Flare Blade. Just a small touch that would help a lot on two fronts (canon and as a fighter).
• Zelda: Depends. If we're sticking with TP Zelda, it's best that we give her her sword (maybe even when not TP Zelda). But I'd more like to see her turn into another projectile normal character using her bow (using Dynasty Warriors logic where Bow-wielders have short range and no windups). It would help justify her light weight a lot better.
• Mewtwo: Change his non-Shadow Ball attacks to use magenta energy. It's not a ghost type.
• Sonic: He has two spin dashes, and in Smash 4, they're even less different than in Brawl. Swap his Side-B with the Super Peel-Out or Boost (maybe combine both into one move).
• Mario: Probably who I want changed most. Swap the U-Smash out for an overhead Hammer slam. Change d-air to Goomba Stomp. Change Side-B to Star Spin. Change Down-B to Ground Pound.

I'll probably post more if I think of them.

I like a lot of these, especially Zelda using Light Arrows. That would be a great way to redesign her in a way befitting of the character while moving past her current terrible design. Plus it has a lot of room for creativity. The only ones I'd tweak a bit would be Mario and Sonic. You keep mentioning Goomba Stomp for some reason even though footstooling is already a thing, so why not just buff Mario and Luigi's footstools? Like make them do damage or stun grounded opponents or something. And if we're not using the stomp as a Down Air, Star Spin could be worked into Mario Tornado as either an aesthetic change to the finisher or a new move entirely with the benefit of stalling. As an added bonus you would have room to do something else with his side special if you wanted to.

I do agree that Down B is could use some work, but instead of swapping it out for Yoshi and Bowser's down specials, just let Mario switch between the four FLUDD nozzles like in Sunshine. Using a Hammer is something I completely agree that some Mario has to do, whether it be normal or Paper.

As for Sonic, I would change his side special to Cyan Laser instead of Boost or Super Peel Out. I just think it would work better overall.

Now for my own ideas:

• Luigi: The aforementioned footstool buff, and a Poltergust ranged grab. It would be cool if it had a windbox Zair, but I'm not sure how that would be balanced. Giving him an Ice Flower as a neutral special would be nice too, and maybe adding electricity to his up special sweetspot and forward smash to emulate the Thunderhand.
• Yoshi: Add a rainbow trail to Egg Roll. Maybe it could let him travel in a short arc while airborne to aid recovery?
• Dr. Mario: Frame data buffs so he matches Mario, invincibility on his Up Special, and an electric effect to Forward Air and possibly Up Special if Luigi doesn't get Thunderhand stuff. Probably buffs to Pills and Dr. Tornado's recovery. Various base knockback and knockback growth changes to moves like Up Air, Neutral Air, Back Throw, and Down Throw so they either combo or kill better.
• Greninja: I would seriously consider changing Substitute to Spikes. Added stage control & it fits the ninja motif. The thing is, so does Substitute. So either make Substitute usable or swap it with spikes and regulate the Substitute doll to an item. Like have it block a certain amount of damage (25%+) until it breaks. The doll could replace the user's model while moving but swap out during attacks, making the user vulnerable for the duration of the move. The more I think about the more I'd rather see a ninja use caltrops than another counter.

 

[Curious Villager]

Isn't Mario's up special basically his main jump in the Mario series? I mean, sure he's not stomping any characters, Goomba stomp style with it, but it does show the effect whenever he hits any mid air coin blocks in the games. Perhaps expand on that and have him be able to do a mid air stomp after performing that up special (kind of in a similar vein as Cloud's up special where he can perform his up special and then follow it up with a second attack that sends him downwards afterwards.) Perhaps make it also his ground pound ability from the 3D and NSMB games?

 

[ryuu seika]

Giving him a ground pound would make sense. Giving him a character specific footstool variant that mimics the ones anyone can do in Smash Run would be highly redundant.

 

[Deleted member]

Giving him a ground pound would make sense. Giving him a character specific footstool variant that mimics the ones anyone can do in Smash Run would be highly redundant.

I don't see why changing how footstooling works for the character that inspired the idea is any more groundbreaking than creating a character with multiple double jumps, an armored double jump, or immunity to shield pokes. And I have no idea what Smash Run enemies have to do with PvP mechanics.

 

[Quillion]

The only ones I'd tweak a bit would be Mario and Sonic. You keep mentioning Goomba Stomp for some reason even though footstooling is already a thing, so why not just buff Mario and Luigi's footstools? Like make them do damage or stun grounded opponents or something.

Again...

In Melee, predating the footstool, Zelda, DK, Falcon, Ganondorf, and Ness had stomping attacks as their d-airs.

And it doesn't stop there. Greninja got a stomping attack for his d-air and no one considers it redundant with footstooling. Only DK got his stomp move removed, but everyone else retained theirs even with the introduction of footstooling.

So why can't Mario have his most iconic move? If people get upset that Ganondorf isn't using his most iconic move, why does no one get upset that Mario doesn't have his own?

And if we're not using the stomp as a Down Air, Star Spin could be worked into Mario Tornado as either an aesthetic change to the finisher or a new move entirely with the benefit of stalling. As an added bonus you would have room to do something else with his side special if you wanted to.

I want Star Spin to replace the cape because in canon, the Star Spin is used to gain a bit of extra height and reflect certain projectiles. Sound familiar to Mario's current Side-B?

Well, the cape in canon doesn't have those properties while the Star Spin does. I feel the change only makes sense. Plus, the spin was even carried into the NSMB series in a non-attacking measure, so I think incorporating the Star Spin makes his moveset more timeless.

 

[ryuu seika]

Not sure how you missed this but I'll say it again. In no canon iteration have I seen Mario have any kind of stomp. He has the ability to land on things and hurt them but that's not the same thing as a dedicated action. He doesn't thrust his feet downwards in an attack or anything. You're making a move out of nothing.

Greninja has a ninja dive kick. Mario just bounces off heads. That's what the difference between a stomp and a footstool is. One is an action, the other is just making use of a situation.
Mario excels at creating that situation but all he's actually doing is abusing his own portliness.

Giving him more air control with the luma spin, on the other hand, definitely appeals to me. That plays right into Mario being Mario while drawing directly from one of his games. It is, however, already one of Rosalina's moves, even if her version works very differently.
That can probably be overlooked, though.

I don't see why changing how footstooling works for the character that inspired the idea is any more groundbreaking than creating a character with multiple double jumps, an armored double jump, or immunity to shield pokes. And I have no idea what Smash Run enemies have to do with PvP mechanics.

Who has an armoured double jump and why?
Your point on PvP mechanics clearly overlooks the fact that characters' movesets aren't just for 1v1 no assist trophy battles but the rest of what you say rings true. Gross as it may be to contemplate the idea of violating footstooling like that. Where do we draw the line, though? Please tell me Squirtle's Project M turnaround hitbox is still utterly wrong in every respect.

 

[Quillion]

Not sure how you missed this but I'll say it again. In no canon iteration have I seen Mario have any kind of stomp. He has the ability to land on things and hurt them but that's not the same thing as a dedicated action. He doesn't thrust his feet downwards in an attack or anything. You're making a move out of nothing.

They turned his "fist in the air" jump into a Shoryuken derivative even though he can't damage enemies with it in canon.

Why are you against turning his most iconic damage-dealing maneuver into an attack yet you are for turning a non-damage-dealing maneuver into an attack?

 

[Luminario]

Who has an armoured double jump and why?

Isn't that Yoshi?

Then why did you even try in the first place? Don't do that; the internet helps us find sources better than you might think.
____

Ganondorf aside, he's not the only character whose portrayal is unfaithful, retroactively or not. I have a lot of changes in mind for other characters.

• Wario: Just change his Dash Attack into his... Dash Attack. Yes, I know that some people want the shoulder move to be his Side-B, but I think it will work just fine as his Dash Attack. That's it; no more changes are needed. Plus, we have both the bike and the shoulder.
• Samus: NEEDS PROJECTILE NORMALS. It's really unfair that Mega Man and Mii Gunner (and Villager to a lesser extent) get extensive projectile usage for their normals, yet Samus doesn't. It would help fix her tier position AND make her distinct from Zamus.
• Donkey Kong: I've seen some people say that he wants more punching, but the only thing I want is for him to get a freaking projectile. I don't care if it's the Barrel Throw or Coconut Gun, he needs a projectile of some kind.
• Roy: Add a fire sword beam to his Flare Blade. Just a small touch that would help a lot on two fronts (canon and as a fighter).
• Zelda: Depends. If we're sticking with TP Zelda, it's best that we give her her sword (maybe even when not TP Zelda). But I'd more like to see her turn into another projectile normal character using her bow (using Dynasty Warriors logic where Bow-wielders have short range and no windups). It would help justify her light weight a lot better.
• Mewtwo: Change his non-Shadow Ball attacks to use magenta energy. It's not a ghost type.
• Sonic: He has two spin dashes, and in Smash 4, they're even less different than in Brawl. Swap his Side-B with the Super Peel-Out or Boost (maybe combine both into one move).
• Mario: Probably who I want changed most. Swap the U-Smash out for an overhead Hammer slam. Change d-air to Goomba Stomp. Change Side-B to Star Spin. Change Down-B to Ground Pound.

I'll probably post more if I think of them.

I like most of these changes, but I still feel they should expand of Zelda's magic instead of just giving her a weapon. She's one of the few characters that uses magic throughout most of her moveset and that can easily be expanded on to make her a projectile normal character too.

Mario having a dair that simulates a goomba stomp wouldn't be that bad, as long as it's implemented correctly so Mario doesn't have 2 spikes or it doesn't combo into his fair spike too easily. The Galaxy spin should have been there for Smash 4, and it makes more sense being a reflector than the Cape.

 

[Deleted member]

Kinda forgot that Star Spin reflected things. It's been a while since I've played Galaxy, but yeah, having it replace cape makes more sense now. As for Down Air, it's honestly one of the most unique ones in the game so replacing it with a generic stomp or divekick doesn't appeal to me even if it means having two spins.

Not sure how you missed this but I'll say it again. In no canon iteration have I seen Mario have any kind of stomp. He has the ability to land on things and hurt them but that's not the same thing as a dedicated action. He doesn't thrust his feet downwards in an attack or anything. You're making a move out of nothing.

Greninja has a ninja dive kick. Mario just bounces off heads. That's what the difference between a stomp and a footstool is. One is an action, the other is just making use of a situation.
Mario excels at creating that situation but all he's actually doing is abusing his own portliness.

Giving him more air control with the luma spin, on the other hand, definitely appeals to me. That plays right into Mario being Mario while drawing directly from one of his games. It is, however, already one of Rosalina's moves, even if her version works very differently.
That can probably be overlooked, though.



Who has an armoured double jump and why?
Your point on PvP mechanics clearly overlooks the fact that characters' movesets aren't just for 1v1 no assist trophy battles but the rest of what you say rings true. Gross as it may be to contemplate the idea of violating footstooling like that. Where do we draw the line, though? Please tell me Squirtle's Project M turnaround hitbox is still utterly wrong in every respect.

Completely agree with the first part, which is why I'd rather have Goomba Stomp be worked in as a unique footstool.

I don't know why you're so against expanding on one character's footstool so much. The point of listing off things like Kirby's multiple double jumps, Yoshi's double jump armor, or Yoshi's unpokeable egg shield is that some characters already deviate from the norm when it comes to certain universal mechanics. Some other ones I left out include Peach's float, Ryu's funky air movement that makes him feel more like Street Fighter, Bowser's light armor, Link's shield, Bowser Jr.'s damage calculation which differs between his body and car, DK's Cargo Throw, Bayonetta's Bat Within dodges, Corrin's charging hitbox on FSmash/Ness's charging hitbox on Yoyo smashes in earlier games, wall jumps/clings, tether recoveries/Zairs, crawling, and even double jump canceling in past titles. If there are characters that don't stick to the generic template of these universal mechanics, why is slightly altering how footstooling works for one character "violating" it? The point is that not every character sticks to two bland jumps, a normal shield/dodges, and everything else I mentioned or didn't bother putting in. Character unique properties have always been a thing, so there is literally no reason to argue against this unless you just don't like the idea to begin with.

I don't have a complete idea of what a buffed footstool would be like, but I'd imagine it would be some combination of doing damage (only when you get the footstool. This does not mean having a hitbox on a jump unless you don't know the meaning of the word. It's more akin to the passive damage Pichu takes from using electric moves than anything.), sending opponents downward faster, giving Mario more control over his jump height, or putting grounded opponents into a missed tech state/longer stun time. Giving a small nod to footstooling's inspiration isn't all that much to ask for. And yes, there are more game modes than just traditional FFAs, but the inherent weakness of a Goomba should not take precedence over the most important aspect of the game when the two things aren't even mutually exclusive.

 

[ryuu seika]

Charging hitboxes have been a thing for ages, putting them on a special should not be a big thing. Multiple double jumps has been a thing for certain characters since day one so there was never an established rule there. Floating is an extra state, not a change to a global mechanic. Z-airs are bothersome for me but at least a logical extension of differing grab mechanics seen on stage. Doublejump armour has never really come up when I've been playing but I don't like it. Bat Within is utter BS.

Certain elements of what you suggest for the footstool seem a lot more palatable than others. Tweaking the physics of the action seems far more reasonable to me than putting a hitbox on something which is, for every other character, a non-attack.

 

[Quillion]

I think the biggest problem with giving Mario a unique footstool is that it damages his role as the gimmick-free standard character.

Stomping should be a part of his moveset, but his d-air is a better place to put it.

 

[kirbstr]

I think the biggest problem with giving Mario a unique footstool is that it damages his role as the gimmick-free standard character.

Stomping should be a part of his moveset, but his d-air is a better place to put it.

No, it really shouldn't. He never stomps on enemies in game, he jumps on them, there is a difference. He could, however, use a ground pound as his d-air.

 

[Quillion]

No, it really shouldn't. He never stomps on enemies in game, he jumps on them, there is a difference. He could, however, use a ground pound as his d-air.

I covered that.

They turned his "fist in the air" jump into a Shoryuken derivative even though he can't damage enemies with it in canon.

Why are you against turning his most iconic damage-dealing maneuver into an attack yet you are for turning a non-damage-dealing maneuver into an attack?

 

[ryuu seika]

They turned his "fist in the air" jump into a Shoryuken derivative even though he can't damage enemies with it in canon.
Why are you against turning his most iconic damage-dealing maneuver into an attack yet you are for turning a non-damage-dealing maneuver into an attack?

Because, while it doesn't damage enemies, Mario's fist is shown to do damage yet, while Mario's landing does damage foes, it is never shown as anything besides a passive effect.

Perhaps footstooling could be changed for everyone to have more individual properties, a la wall jumping? Not to do damage or anything but turning Mario's into a meteor smash wouldn't be out of place then and it would allow character weight to play into the mechanic nicely for other characters.

 

[Blackwolf666]

As somebody who barely plays Streetfighter, half the cast still look like Ryu clones from the outside, even if there is canon reason for it. It's the same as how I tolerate Wolf and Falco but would much rather have Krystal or accept that Luigi has a logical reason to be a slippery Mario with different specials.

The difference is, Ganondorf hasn't trained under Falcon or a shared master, isn't his obsessive brother, doesn't come from the same squadren and hasn't had all his gadgets made by the same supplier. There is no connection between them. No reason for them to be so similar.

Yes, Ganondorf now has a choke hold and he's the right sort of slow and deadly but that's pretty much all he has in terms of his canon character.



In canon? Maybe. In Smash Bros gameplay? Hell no.



There aren't many projectiles in Soul Calibur so it would hardly be relevant if nightmare did but no. That was a suggestion for a uniquely Ganondorf element. The batting back and forth of energy projectiles is probably the most consistent part of his fighting style.



The "smart thing" is quite debatable. Yes, there is an element of intelligence to easing people through the decloning process but, if it's still going to be decades before we see anything even remotely resembling an actual Ganondorf, was it really that smart to add him in the first place?

This is why I hate all those "clones take no time to make, we lose nothing by having them in the game" comments. We've already lost the possibility of a real Ganondorf any time in the foreseeable lifetime of the franchise, what more is needed for them to accept that non-Pichu clones are bad.

You summed up my own thoughts on why Ganon should have a unique move set perfectly.

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

Changes I want to see in the characters:
: replace Bullet Climax. Bayo was never meant to be a zoner.
: Replace Nair, it looks unfitting. Also buff dair.
: give him a throw combo/generally buff. Also reduce lag on down B.
,,: Declone a la Falco
: Give him some more canon attacks
: CHANGE UP SMASH. Seriously. It sucks.
: Change neutral B to warlock blade
: Make PK fire have less hitstun and more endlag
: 5 pikmin
: Make hydrant easier to launch, buff grab
: make a bit faster in all aspects
: Buff grab, change side B
: make it so Luma has more waiting time before respawning
: get rid of all invincibility on spindash
: Get some canon moves, more so than DK
: have the soccer ball easier to kill or combo with
: make 1/1/1/1 Default Miis not exclusively in the custom battles

 

[Quillion]

Okay, I really have to wonder: WHY are people saying Donkey Kong doesn't have enough canon attacks?

Yes, I said I want DK to have some sort of projectile, but what does he really need beyond that?

He got his roll from DKC in Smash 4, has had his hand slap from the beginning, and his Giant Punch is retroactively canon thanks to the ending cutscene in DKCR.

Not to mention his running and crouch animations are full recreations of the corresponding animations in DKC.

What does he need?

 

[Megadoomer]

Okay, I really have to wonder: WHY are people saying Donkey Kong doesn't have enough canon attacks?

Yes, I said I want DK to have some sort of projectile, but what does he really need beyond that?

He got his roll from DKC in Smash 4, has had his hand slap from the beginning, and his Giant Punch is retroactively canon thanks to the ending cutscene in DKCR.

Not to mention his running and crouch animations are full recreations of the corresponding animations in DKC.

What does he need?

His Coconut Gun, which can fire in spurts. If he shoots ya, it's gonna hurt.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

: replace Bullet Climax. Bayo was never meant to be a zoner.

One projectile does not a zoner make.

 

[kirbstr]

So what I'm generally getting from this thread is that the following characters' movesets are good and should not be changed in the next smash:

,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,, , , , , , , , , , ,

The following characters could use an moveset update/buff:

, ,, , , , , , , , , , ,, , , ,

The Following characters should get a full rework in the next smash:

(lmao), , ,

I'm not including miis as I have no idea if they will even be in the next smash.

Did I miss anything? Or should some characters be moved around?

 

[ryuu seika]

I'm uncertain on Doc and he probably depends more on what happens to Mario. For example, if, as suggested, Mario gets the Galaxy luma spin, then the sheet would suddenly be unique to him. Doc could easily become as unique as Luigi (all we can really hope for tbh) without any changes to himself but that degree of alteration to Mario would be pretty extreme.

 

[Quillion]

That and if Mario gets updates like the Goomba Stomp, a few of them should be transferred to Luigi as well.

 

[Atley Yuen]

PLEASE BRING BACK ICE CLIMBERS and WOLF!!!!

WHAT DID THEY EVER DO TO YOU SAKURAI!!!!!!!????????

 

[PixelPasta]

Here are my thoughts on how veterans could be changed in the next Smash game. I usually like to emphasize accurate representation of the source material over anything else (I know some people are apprehensive about drastically changing characters, but I personally think a lot of the veteran characters need 'refreshing')

Spoiler: Rather Long List

• Side Special changed to a Shell Kick
• Up Special changed to the Super Cape from Super Mario World, as a recovery rather than a reflector
• Down Special changed to Hammer
• Forward Smash changed to the Firebrand from Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga
• Neutral Air changed to the Spin Jump from Super Mario World
• Forward Air changed to the Jump Kick from Super Mario 64
• Down Air changed to a Goomba Stomp
• Construction Mario (Super Mario Maker) added as an alternate costume

• Side Special changed to a Shell Kick
• Down Special changed to the Poltergust 3000 from Luigi's Mansion
• Forward Smash changed to the Thunderhand from Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga
• Down Air changed to the Flutter Kicks from Super Mario Bros.

• Neutral Special changed to a healing move, a-la Super Mario RPG
• Side Special changed to Cat Peach from Super Mario 3D World
• Up Special altered to resemble Perry from Super Princess Peach
• Final Smash changed to her Vibe Powers from Super Princess Peach

• Side Special changed to a Hammer Throw
• Up Special changed to a Shockwave Slam, as seen in Super Mario 64 and Galaxy
• Dash Attack changed to Shell Roll from Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
• Forward Smash changed to the Punch from Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
• Final Smash changed to Giant Bowser from Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story
• Dry Bowser added as an alternate costume

• Final Smash changed to a Giant Eggdozer from Yoshi's New Island
• Yarn Yoshi added as an alternate costume

• Neutral Aerial changed to the Luma Spin
• Grab incorporates a Pull Star
• Final Smash involves the Comet Observatory
• Cosmic Spirit added as an alternate costume

• Add a suction effect to Neutral Special so it more resembles the move from Wario World
• Side Special changed to a fully-fledged Shoulder Bash attack
• Down Special changed to the Earthshake Punch from Wario Land: Shake It!
• Grabs and throws changed to be more like Wario Land

• Neutral Special changed to the Coconut Gun from Donkey Kong 64
• Side Special changed to a Donkey Kong-style Barrel Throw
• Up Special changed to the Barrel Launcher from Donkey Kong Country

(assuming he is not totally rehauled into his Breath of the Wild incarnation - my ideas for that can be found here)

• Down Special tweaked so that the bombs are used more like in the Zelda series - they are larger; held over Link's head; and can be placed on the ground, thrown, or rolled depending on the input
• At 0%, his Jab Combo will fire a Sword Beam
• Up Smash changed to the Skyward Strike from Skyward Sword
• Hyrule Warriors outfit and Breath of the Wild's Champion's Tunic added as alternate costumes

(again, assuming she will not be revamped into a BOTW Zelda; my ideas for that are in the same thread linked above)

• Neutral Special changed to the Goddess Harp from Skyward Sword
• Side Special uses her Rapier from Hyrule Warriors or her sword from Twilight Princess
• Up Special changed to the Sailcloth from Skyward Sword

• Neutral Special changed to the Dead Man's Volley from Ocarina of Time
• Side Special changed to the Sword of the Six Sages from Twilight Princes
• Up Special changed to the a Teleport
• Down Special changed to the Earth-Shattering Punch from Ocarina of Time
• Other moves use a combination of dark magic and swordplay
• Added the ability to levitate similar to Peach
• Grab encases opponent in a crystal (like in Ocarina of Time) as a neat visual effect

• Up Special uses the Deku Leaf from Wind Waker
• Bombs are tweaked in a similar way to Link
• Final Smash is the Ballad of Gales
• Outset Island clothes added as an alternate costume

• Neutral attacks fire short-ranged projectiles (similar to Mega Man)
• Forward Smash changed to the Ice Beam

• Side Special changed to the First Blade from Uprising, a two part attack (first a horizontal slash, then a burst of projectiles)

• More copy abilities featured in custom moves
  • Neutral: Flame & Ice
  • Side: Beam & Burning
  • Up: Hi-Jump & Tornado
  • Down: Spark & Bomb
• Down Tilt changed to the Slide Kick
• Final Smash changed to Robobot Armour

• Final Smash changed to Masked Dedede from Super Star

• Final Smash changed to Arwing

• Side Special changed to PK Paralysis
• Up Special changed to PSI Teleport
• Down Special changed to LifeUp
• Up Smash uses the Slingshot
• Final Smash changed to PK Rockin
• Pajamas added as an alternate costume

• Down Special changed to Offense Up
• Final Smash changed to PK Love

 

[Swamp Sensei]

PLEASE BRING BACK ICE CLIMBERS and WOLF!!!!

WHAT DID THEY EVER DO TO YOU SAKURAI!!!!!!!????????

Well one simply had to deal with hardware limitations and the other probably got booted due to limited time.

 

[Quillion]

Still would've liked solo Popo/Nana to remain. They're the only dedicated ice users on the roster, after all.

 

[ryuu seika]

Solo Popo/Nana kills everything about the pair. It's both or nothing for me.

 

[kirbstr]

Solo Popo/Nana kills everything about the pair. It's both or nothing for me.

Same. Sort of unrelated, but I hope in the next game ice climbers are the only characters that can chain grab due to them being registered as separate characters or something, just as a little "**** you" from sakurai lmao.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

A solo Ice Climber betrays the mechanic they were originally added in for. That's probably why Sakurai decided against having them in at all. Still think it was a bit of overkill to delete their character logo from the sound test. That's ****ed up.

PLEASE BRING BACK ICE CLIMBERS and WOLF!!!!

WHAT DID THEY EVER DO TO YOU SAKURAI!!!!!!!????????

Imagine how Squirtle and Ivysaur fans feel. Let alone Snake fans. Those 3 have become black sheep in the community. Most everyone supports Ice Climbers and Wolf. Squirtle and Ivysaur are nearly forgotten about, and Snake is so decisive in the community in multiple different ways. Ice Climbers and Wolf have basically everyone backing them.

 

[Quillion]

Just because Ice Climbers filled the niche of "two characters in one" doesn't make it their only niche.

They also filled the niche of "only ice user" on the roster.

Being "all or nothing" with their duo gimmick is like saying you'd rather have no Ganondorf whether you prefer him being Falcondorf or being revamped.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Just because Ice Climbers filled the niche of "two characters in one" doesn't make it their only niche.

They also filled the niche of "only ice user" on the roster.

Being "all or nothing" with their duo gimmick is like saying you'd rather have no Ganondorf whether you prefer him being Falcondorf or being revamped.

Niche and mechanic are two different things though. One or the other could have been chosen during the selection process in Melee but both were chosen because they worked around a certain, interesting, unique, mechanic.

Sure, they may have been the only ice user in the roster but the two character mechanic that they had was what made them stand out among the rest of the cast. Not their ice user niche.

Not sure I quite understand your Ganondorf analogy though.

 

[ryuu seika]

Same. Sort of unrelated, but I hope in the next game ice climbers are the only characters that can chain grab due to them being registered as separate characters or something, just as a little "**** you" from sakurai lmao.

Full chaingrabbing might be a touch too far but Popo should definitely still be able to hand off to Nana (or vice versa) and, as long as some degree of read is required, I wouldn't mind if a single followup could run down the last of Popo's timer.

 

[Quillion]

Sure, they may have been the only ice user in the roster but the two character mechanic that they had was what made them stand out among the rest of the cast. Not their ice user niche.

Look, I understand being "gameplay-first." I was extremely gameplay-first for a long time.

But you can't discount their usage of ice because it's just "aesthetics." It makes them stand out just as much as their two-character mechanic.

 

[Zerp]

Same. Sort of unrelated, but I hope in the next game ice climbers are the only characters that can chain grab due to them being registered as separate characters or something, just as a little "**** you" from sakurai lmao.

I have the strangest feeling they'll think they already got them with the Smash 4 one second rule but actually fail to remove the Ice Climber's chain-grabs at release, since they forgot to get rid of DACUS before Sm4sh's launch I can see them forgetting about the magical power of footstool chaingrabs as well.

Spoiler

I'm pretty certain a lot of these would break the 1 second rule if the dev team happens to forget about them.

 

[ryuu seika]

But the two character element has at least as much "flavour" to it as the ice.