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Utah Thread - Dead thread is dead

Jekyll

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 3, 2005
Messages
997
Location
Redwood City, CA
I'm finally back! Recorded some matches, hopefully there's something I can do better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uderuY0VkA4&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSq500XqF3Y&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9s-BXpblwQ&feature=youtu.be

3 matches each about 3-4min long. Tell me why I suck etc, thanks!

Also SHLC wants some critique on his playstyle etc. NOT his character choice haha.


General Feedback:
Work on forward smashing less. There's really no reason to ever throw out a forward smash when you're in neutral.
Sinz talked about using your fair more and your nair less. This was really good advice. You also want to work on spacing your aerials. You never want to land from an aerial and be within kissing range of your opponent. Pull back on your control stick and stop yourself from getting that close.
FYI: Nair can be auto-cancelled. IMO that's a better option most of the time that you're doing a short-hopped nair
You need to be more patient when you're in an advantageous position and focus on covering / limiting your opponent's options. I'll point out a couple of specific instances below, but in general you always want to be thinking about what your opponent is capable of and prepare for it. If you've forced your opponent to have to tech, especially on a platform, you can afford to take the time to watch and react to their tech. Try pre-emptively positioning yourself to a spot where you can punish all of their possible tech rolls with an attack or grab.

Game 1
You do a lot of D-Tilt -> F-Smash and it doesn't really get you anything. Try staying more mobile by dashing out of your d-tilts, or grabbing rather than throwing another (punishable) attack. Generally, you want to try and use your d-tilt as a hit-confirm and not throw out a followup unless it connects.
0:12 - I would've held the position under the platform longer. You're at an advantage there. Same thing again at 0:15. Just do some up-tilts (preferably with your back towards the edge so that he has to DI off-stage.

[Ran out of time. I'll finish up game 1 later today or tomorrow]

Game 2
0:16 - ABORT! ABORT! Marth is very vulnerable from below, so you never want to just give an opponent that positioning by full jumping directly above them. Also, when you're in that position, you generally don't want to throw out a dair. 90% of the time it will get you punished.
0:38 - lawlz
0:41 - At 0:41, 0:43, and 0:46 you choose to put yourself on the side platform when you could just land on the main stage, and at 1:00 you go after Roy on the top platform (with a dancing blade :p). Just focus on getting back to the ground rather than putting yourself in disadvantageous positions like this.
1:09 - Back air. When Roy is recovering high, just drop from the ledge and bair him...Or jump out with a bair in the opposite direction and then bair him if you're feeling M2Fancy
1:33 - Go back in time, wavedash backwards offstage here and bair him and you'll be my hero
1:15 - Over the next 45 seconds, you throw a lot of seemingly-random smashes at a very low-percent Roy. Even though it doesn't seem to go too badly for you, I would focus more on either racking up damage or getting the opponent offstage when they're at low percentages.
2:37 - This is an example of a time when you should be getting in position for a follow-up. Roy is going to hit the platform, but you stay center stage instead of moving below him.
3:26 - This is an example of a time when you should've just waited for the tech rather than trying to immediately follow up. You could've hit him with more up-tilts or landed a tipper on him to get him offstage.


Game 3:
0:12 - You could have grabbed after the dash attack here, which would have given you more followup options than the sourspot u-tilt
0:18 - This is a good example of what Sinz was talking about with replacing your nairs with fairs. There's less margin for error, and you most likely would've been able to chain a few fairs together here.
0:33 - You throw out a lot of dash attacks over the next 9 seconds, and they're all from pretty close range. This attack leaves you really vulnerable (you get punished for it all 3 times), and if you're not in a situation where you're making use of its range you can probably be doing something else like an aerial or a grab(which finishes 10-19 frames faster than Marth's dash attack).
1:30 - When you're setting up to juggle an opponent with uairs, try and think about your positioning after each attack. If you'd landed on the platform after your uair here, you might have been able to get another one...or two. He actually lost his double-jump, so you really could've taken this pretty far. Also, are you not using the c-stick for aerials?
2:38 - lawlz
2:48 - Just felt like saying that this dash attack was spaced much better than the previous ones
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
for those of you asking for video critiques, might I suggest going to the character specific boards and either making a thread or posting in the existing "everything *this character* thread"

when I was a young whipper snapper I would absolutely fiend and spam the fox boards, and there were many great players such as cactuar and raynex who gave me lots of great feedback, as well as other less notable players chiming in

epsilon is coming in around ~1:30. i'm ready for people to begin showing up. give me a text/call upon arrival, or politely walk in (the door's unlocked)
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
yo, me jekyll epsilon and beekeeper are all playing, i plan on ending the fest at 5, so keep that in mind if you plan on coming still but haven't yet arrived
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
I didn't even tell them that and they packed up and left at 4:58 LOL
some legit smash mindlink

ggs everyone thanks for coming :-D
 

Superw0rri0

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Messages
849
Location
SoCal
for those of you asking for video critiques, might I suggest going to the character specific boards and either making a thread or posting in the existing "everything *this character* thread"

when I was a young whipper snapper I would absolutely fiend and spam the fox boards, and there were many great players such as cactuar and raynex who gave me lots of great feedback, as well as other less notable players chiming in

epsilon is coming in around ~1:30. i'm ready for people to begin showing up. give me a text/call upon arrival, or politely walk in (the door's unlocked)
Gotcha... I already posted on the doc forums and I just wanted to see if anyone here wanted to add on.

Well, I'm pretty not that great at giving specific advice, and I only play so much Doc in Melee, but I guess there are a few things I could say. One is that I felt you didn't make enough use of the cape as an edgeguard, and that when you went for back air edgeguards you stayed near the stage as opposed to going out towards the person recovering. Another thing is when you were playing me, you got caught in your shield a lot, and I ended up getting a bunch of grabs off of it.

Also, were those the only two matches recorded?
Ya those were the only two. I forgot to record the first one.

On the cape:
Cape doesn't work on spacies' illusion. Either two things happen: Cape and Illusion cancel each other out and spacies go right through doc or the better outcome is it hits falco and he gets knocked up a little bit and either lands on the stage or gets a chance to up B. The more likely outcome is that they cancel each other out. It's better to either pill, ftilt, bair, or punish when you get back on stage.
I would normally try to cape your upB but you didn't do it that much and in the cases that you did upB I either didn't have enough time to get my cape out or it was just better to use an attack.
Cape is awesome but it's situational. It's more of an anti sweet spot and projectile reflector. Not a bread and butter edge guard tool.

And I completely agree with bairing on stage instead of going out. Dropping edgeguards is one of the things that I really need to work on.
 
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Tane

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
437
Location
SLC, UT
3DS FC
2122-6733-6416
Just wanted to say thanks to all the homies who came out last night. I had a great time and I hope you hoes did too.

Also, massive welcome to the new homies that showed up outta nowhere! Props for finding the scene and making it to the fest!! I hope you guys stay in the scene.
 

Hatch Backward

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
145
Location
4000w 5600s SLC, UT
General Feedback:
Work on forward smashing less. There's really no reason to ever throw out a forward smash when you're in neutral.
Sinz talked about using your fair more and your nair less. This was really good advice. You also want to work on spacing your aerials. You never want to land from an aerial and be within kissing range of your opponent. Pull back on your control stick and stop yourself from getting that close.
FYI: Nair can be auto-cancelled. IMO that's a better option most of the time that you're doing a short-hopped nair
You need to be more patient when you're in an advantageous position and focus on covering / limiting your opponent's options. I'll point out a couple of specific instances below, but in general you always want to be thinking about what your opponent is capable of and prepare for it. If you've forced your opponent to have to tech, especially on a platform, you can afford to take the time to watch and react to their tech. Try pre-emptively positioning yourself to a spot where you can punish all of their possible tech rolls with an attack or grab.

Game 1
You do a lot of D-Tilt -> F-Smash and it doesn't really get you anything. Try staying more mobile by dashing out of your d-tilts, or grabbing rather than throwing another (punishable) attack. Generally, you want to try and use your d-tilt as a hit-confirm and not throw out a followup unless it connects.
0:12 - I would've held the position under the platform longer. You're at an advantage there. Same thing again at 0:15. Just do some up-tilts (preferably with your back towards the edge so that he has to DI off-stage.

[Ran out of time. I'll finish up game 1 later today or tomorrow]

Game 2
0:16 - ABORT! ABORT! Marth is very vulnerable from below, so you never want to just give an opponent that positioning by full jumping directly above them. Also, when you're in that position, you generally don't want to throw out a dair. 90% of the time it will get you punished.
0:38 - lawlz
0:41 - At 0:41, 0:43, and 0:46 you choose to put yourself on the side platform when you could just land on the main stage, and at 1:00 you go after Roy on the top platform (with a dancing blade :p). Just focus on getting back to the ground rather than putting yourself in disadvantageous positions like this.
1:09 - Back air. When Roy is recovering high, just drop from the ledge and bair him...Or jump out with a bair in the opposite direction and then bair him if you're feeling M2Fancy
1:33 - Go back in time, wavedash backwards offstage here and bair him and you'll be my hero
1:15 - Over the next 45 seconds, you throw a lot of seemingly-random smashes at a very low-percent Roy. Even though it doesn't seem to go too badly for you, I would focus more on either racking up damage or getting the opponent offstage when they're at low percentages.
2:37 - This is an example of a time when you should be getting in position for a follow-up. Roy is going to hit the platform, but you stay center stage instead of moving below him.
3:26 - This is an example of a time when you should've just waited for the tech rather than trying to immediately follow up. You could've hit him with more up-tilts or landed a tipper on him to get him offstage.


Game 3:
0:12 - You could have grabbed after the dash attack here, which would have given you more followup options than the sourspot u-tilt
0:18 - This is a good example of what Sinz was talking about with replacing your nairs with fairs. There's less margin for error, and you most likely would've been able to chain a few fairs together here.
0:33 - You throw out a lot of dash attacks over the next 9 seconds, and they're all from pretty close range. This attack leaves you really vulnerable (you get punished for it all 3 times), and if you're not in a situation where you're making use of its range you can probably be doing something else like an aerial or a grab(which finishes 10-19 frames faster than Marth's dash attack).
1:30 - When you're setting up to juggle an opponent with uairs, try and think about your positioning after each attack. If you'd landed on the platform after your uair here, you might have been able to get another one...or two. He actually lost his double-jump, so you really could've taken this pretty far. Also, are you not using the c-stick for aerials?
2:38 - lawlz
2:48 - Just felt like saying that this dash attack was spaced much better than the previous ones

Just rewatched all my matches with your commentary, gotta say it's an immense help seeing specific things I should have followed up on and different things I should have done. Thank you very much for all of it!

Specific moves?: As for the ABORT full hop, that was actually just a failed short hop DX still gotta perfect those. What should I do when I find myself above him anyway? The offstage bairs is really something I need to start doing, it's nerve racking right now because I don't know how to do it exactly, but I guess if I just start doing it I'll get it eventually. Also rewatching it, you and sinz are definitely right, fair>nair most of the time. definitely need to start retreating those to get out of the way. I use c stick for aerials when I think about it, but most of the time I just habitually use A and stick :/ gotta kick that habit. Fsmash and dash attack and nair less overall I guess. replaced by grabs and fairs, etc.

Strategies?: Trying to get back to the ground instead of counter attacking in the air after being hit, gotta do that. It's difficult because I'm so afraid he'll hit me back up again, its hard to get back down I guess. I'm not sure how to do it correctly? I also realize I'm almost afraid to be underneath him on the side platforms, he'll spot dodge an uptilt and fall through dair me most of the time, should I just try to bait that out? wavedash away or something? difficult timing is all I guess.

(I guess while I'm talking about myself... >_>): Grabbing is something I've only recently gotten comfortable with, roy's sweetspot is so close to him and mine so far away that I kind of instinctually just stay away unless I have an easy confirmed grab or feel confident about it or something. I'm so defensive playing against this guy, maybe I'm learning bad habits :/ he's so aggressive all the time. (part of why I throw out random smashes sometimes lol, I used to be able to sit and charge fsmash like you can coms and he'd run in haha)


for those of you asking for video critiques, might I suggest going to the character specific boards and either making a thread or posting in the existing "everything *this character* thread"

when I was a young whipper snapper I would absolutely fiend and spam the fox boards, and there were many great players such as cactuar and raynex who gave me lots of great feedback, as well as other less notable players chiming in

epsilon is coming in around ~1:30. i'm ready for people to begin showing up. give me a text/call upon arrival, or politely walk in (the door's unlocked)

Sorry about that, I'll try to post other things over there from now on :/ It just seems awkward to post "help me omg" to people i don't really communicate with, still youre right.
 

Ken Neth

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 22, 2007
Messages
2,545
Location
BYU- Provo, Utah
There's nothing wrong with posting them here, he's just saying you may get some more useful advice from better/more reputable people that actually play the character.
 

Tuesday

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2010
Messages
644
Location
ATX
Wow I got absolutely bodied by a Doctor Mario. Apparently didn't know that match up at all. Shoulda gone Sheik.
 

Z'zgashi

Smash Legend
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
17,322
Location
WeJo, Utah
NNID
ZzgashiZzShy
3DS FC
1521-3678-2980
So it just now hit me.

WHY THE **** IS LUCARIO IN SMASH 4?!

**** this, Im done.
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
Thanks for coming down, Tuesday! Sorry about any of the blackout issues that might've happened, that's something I'm still trying to solve. I'll most likely be running a CRT capture solution for Salt Fest, just to be safe, though.
 

TheBuzzSaw

Young Link Extraordinaire
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
10,479
wasn't brawl exactly what sakurai wanted brawl to be
I'm embarrassed to think that Sakurai accidentally creates these games. Melee was this glorious accident that he's ashamed of, and Brawl is Melee "fixed"... with tripping...
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
that's my understanding lol
melee was a total accident, and brawl was more in line with his vision, with technology advanced how ever many years

idk tho i'm not a smash historian
 

Tsuteto

火事で死ね
Joined
Oct 24, 2005
Messages
1,732
Location
Sandy, UT
Thanks for coming down, Tuesday! Sorry about any of the blackout issues that might've happened, that's something I'm still trying to solve. I'll most likely be running a CRT capture solution for Salt Fest, just to be safe, though.
Would a UPS supply help with that?
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
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Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
No, the issue seems to be any kind of static electricity, whether it's from a shock or just plugging in a Gamecube controller, that happens to be connected in some form to whatever is powering the card via USB (in this case my laptop) was disrupting the connection for the HDMI output. Doesn't matter, at Salt Fest I'll just be capturing off your CRTs and we can avoid the problem altogether.
 

MVP

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 24, 2012
Messages
641
the fact that l-canceling and dashdancing were both in 64 and melee tells me it wasn't an accident. Sakurai is just an idiot for some reason and pooped on smash 3 and 4

EDIT: and hitstun
 
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-Mars-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 26, 2007
Messages
6,515
Location
UTAH
the fact that l-canceling and dashdancing were both in 64 and melee tells me it wasn't an accident. Sakurai is just an idiot for some reason and pooped on smash 3 and 4
You can dash dance in Brawl.
 

Superw0rri0

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Messages
849
Location
SoCal
It's way too short of a dance dash. Imagine if everyone in melee had a dash dance as bad as links. That's what brawl's dash dance feels to me. There is a time and place for it... but it's just too damn small of a dance. Inb4 tripping.
 

Perfect Chaos

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Messages
3,885
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Salt Lake City, Utah
NNID
PerfectChaos7
It's essentially the same use as melee, just not quite as versatile.
"Essentially the same"? All of the major usefulness of it is gone. The ability to quickly advance and/or retreat while still mobile to be able to bait stuff out and whatnot is not really possible if you stay within the same place as you do it. You're better off just standing still so that you won't risk tripping in that case.
Inb4 tripping.
It's not "b4" if Aerodrome already mentioned it before your post... XD
 

Ken Neth

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 22, 2007
Messages
2,545
Location
BYU- Provo, Utah
You're better off just standing still so that you won't risk tripping in that case.
No... I was being serious when I said I get a lot out of it. Sure, the range of movement is lower than in melee but that doesn't mean it's useless. It keeps people guessing about when/whether you're approaching or retreating, forces air/spot dodges, throws off their timing and spacing, it's helpful with tech chasing, and because the general public has the opinion that it's useless no one expects it and it gives it an element of surprise that melee doesn't have.
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
dash dancing in brawl is not useless, as kenny is saying, but you also can't really claim that it's utilized similarly in melee and brawl. you really can't compare the effectiveness of brawl vs melee dding. it's like comparing tobacco to cannabis or something
one is the sacred herb; the other gives a short lived, eventually killer high
#similes
 

Z'zgashi

Smash Legend
Joined
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Messages
17,322
Location
WeJo, Utah
NNID
ZzgashiZzShy
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So apparently the japanese smash bros site had this on it for basically a split second before it was removed:
 

Superw0rri0

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Messages
849
Location
SoCal
Lol... We already knew falco was going to be announced but it's about time they do it. *crosses finger for no guaranteed 0%-60% easy mode chain grab*
 

Tomacawk

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
3,783
Location
Central IL
i'm gunna talk about chain grabbing because i feel like it and it's been brought up

i don't really have a problem with chain grabs that only last for a reasonable percentage (30-40)
honestly a lot of what is going on during chain grabbing, at least in the doesn't last your entire stock sense, is they are building percentage until they deviate with another move, and during this time you di to new parts of the stage that will also influence their combo, and all the while both players must remain patient, particularly the chain grabee, because you must be ready to di or tech in response to a sudden and quick change from repeated throws

there's a lot going on mentally during chain grabs and i think they are a good part of the game, such as marth's on fox up top 30ish % or sheik's dthrow into tech chases (not dthrow into dthrow forever)

now 0-death guaranteed stuff like wobbling or hand offs or whoever else can do it in brawl that I don't know about is clearly stupid and the reward you get (grab->stock cancel) is disgustingly disproportionate to the error you're punishing, usually a poorly spaced aerial or missed l cancel (assuming that something random/unpredictable didn't happen and get you grabbed)
notice the difference between these easy 0-deaths vs what a marth has to do to fox on fd: grab fox (already hard assuming high level play), then not mess up the chain throw until 20%, make sure that they don't try to regrab if fox doesn't di knowing that fox can shine out at this exact percentage, continuining until 30ish %, ensuring fox has not di'd too far to the side to make your utilt miss, regrab, etc
there are many parts of this chain grab where a small percentage range changes the dynamic, many parts where good di and smash di can get you an out, many parts where the chain grabber must react quickly and make difficult conversions, etc.

not even to mention there are many valid reasons that ic's are able to do these things where other characters typically can't, but for the sake of brevity and me not really caring about that dumbass character i don't feel the need to address it anymore than in passing

even still i think people underrate how much of this game is mental
we aren't playing smash brothers, we're playing opponents under the temporary rules of engagement known as smash
you gotta work within the confines of what is possible and know that they are doing the same
 
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