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Utah Thread - Dead thread is dead

BattleChrist

Smash Lord
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I know my voice doesn't really matter to most of you in Utah but i would also go with no items because of the reasons the have been more or less pointed out by Xsyven and Baka^ni.

I only say this and try to stay active in Utah's community because i go there all the time and I'm also probably moving there in the next one or two years anyway.
 

Gojira

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CHUCK NORRIS FOR BRAWL!!!
hmmmmm

Items are obviously going to be banned. They are the same items most of which are in melee (lol). These items have been tested already during the lifetime of melee and im not going to stop to think "well lets test out poke balls again, maybe they wont produce random threats" or "im winning a close match here" *then pop opponent gets hammer "ok now i lose"

So what about new items that have the right to be "tested" before being banned. okay lets test out assist trophies, the new versions of poke balls. where you cant get anything to a dog covering the screen in a close match or a devil that erases half the arena and sometimes all of it giving the winner or loser a free KO.

So here is my proposed rule set.

3 stock
8 minute time limit
No items (except small balls)
Medium appearance on the smash balls
All stages are allowed except wario ware and temple
 

Xsyven

And how!
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PC, it's Corneria, not Cornelia.


My vote:

3 Stock
8 minutes
No items

The stages are going to be tough to rule out which stages are neutral, legal, and banned. I think those are up to the tournament host-- so unless things drastically change around here, I'm guessing its up to FTS to choose 'em.

I'm sure after a month or two of the games release, there'll be a universal stage list.



Gojira, EVERY stage but Wario Ware and Temple?! That's crazy. There are a lot worse levels than those. My opinion--

NOTE: My opinion means VERY LITTLE. I've never played Brawl, so this means absolutely nothing. But I think a simple list that we can all work off of will help us out qite a bit. Once the games released, we can get into SERIOUS discussion about the stages. This is just for fun. :D



I seperated the stages into three sections:

Neutral/Counter - Tourny legal, extremely simple levels. Once we get this list complete, we can separate them into neutral and counter.
Unsure - Have elements that some players might find distracting, unfair, or I personally just don't know the level well enough.
Banned - Stages with too many hazards, bad features, too big, etc.


Neutral/Counter:
Battlefield
Brinstar
Corneria
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Green Greens
Jungle Japes
Luigi's Mansion
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium
Rainbow Cruise
Skyworld
Smashville
Yoshi's Island (Brawl Version)


Leaning towards Legal/Neutral
Leaning towards Banned
Completely unsure


Unsure:
Battleship Halberd
Bridge of Eldin
Castle Siege
Distant Planet
Electroplankton
Frigate Orpheon
Great Sea
Green Hill Zone
Mario Circuit
Mushroomy Kingdom
Norfair
Onett
Pokemon Stadium 2
Port Town Aero Dive
Shadow Moses Island
Summit

Banned:
Big Blue
Classic DK
Flat Zone 2
Hyrule Temple
Mario Bros.
New Pork City
Pictochat
Rumble Falls
Spear Pillar
Wario Ware
Yoshi's Island (Melee)




Put your two cents in, and we'll edit this list as more opinions are said. :D
 

BattleChrist

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I would say no items not smash balls........ especially not smash ball they are going to be one of the worst things to have in a match because of how good most final smashes are. So basically, well exactly the same as Xsyven's rule set.
 

Perfect Chaos

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Items are obviously going to be banned. They are the same items most of which are in melee (lol). These items have been tested already during the lifetime of melee and im not going to stop to think "well lets test out poke balls again, maybe they wont produce random threats" or "im winning a close match here" *then pop opponent gets hammer "ok now i lose"...

Items were used for a couple of years in Melee. Certain items were banned during that time, such as Pokéballs. The big reason people started to stop using items altogether is because you couldn't turn off explosive containers in Melee; this is possible in Brawl, though. So it's not like Brawl'll re-test out Pokéballs and such, as more game-changing items will surely be banned.


PC, it's Corneria, not Cornelia...
...I think those are up to the tournament host-- so unless things drastically change around here, I'm guessing its up to FTS to choose 'em.

I'm sure after a month or two of the games release, there'll be a universal stage list.
LOL Corneria... I've never made the mistake of saying "Cornelia" until the beginning of 2007, when I watched an anime called Code Geass, which included a character named "Cornelia". :laugh:
Leave it up to FTS to choose the list...and universal ban list? With his history, he doesn't follow the universal list...he just modifies them to benefit himself. :ohwell: This is the one big thing that he does that annoys me the most, so I always bring it up.
 

lengeta

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There are two things that really need to be said about items, IMO.

First, items are an integral part of Smash Brothers. The only reason they've been banned from tournaments is because they can randomly appear and explode on you, which is EXTREMELY rare. Brawl has countered this problem because you're now able to turn off exploding containers, and I'm pretty sure items cannot damage you upon spawn. Secondly, Melee pulled the community of Smash players into two groups usually referred to competitive players and casual players mostly due to view on items. Most competitive players are elitist jacka**es, and most casual players are inexperienced and dumb. Neither are right. No items and Final Destination? Why in the **** are you playing this game? Street Fighter and Marvel vs Capcom and the like already have a big scene waiting for you, and those games cater much more to the hardcore, competitive crowd. Maybe you should consider picking up a different game, your trying desperately to change Brawl into one, it's pretty ridiculous.

You also need to realize that you'll be dealing with items anyway, several characters bring them into play themselves.

The problems with items have been fixed, and as such should return. Yes, exceptions will have to be made to be fair and competitive, just as they must be made for stages; no stars, hammers, poke-balls, ATs, etc, etc.

Final Smashes are... strange. They're WAY too much of a tide-turner in 4-way matches, but they might not be game-breaking in 1 vs 1 or teams. They may in fact even help balance out the game, but could potentionally un-balance the game even more. FSs should definitely be tested.

Stages are a tough one, there are a lot of them. The wall infinites and Falco's LL on walk-off stages kill a LOT of otherwise good stages too. Bridge of Eldin, Castle Siege, Corneria (Melee), Green Hill Zone, Mario Circuit, Onett (Melee), Pokemon Stadium (Melee), Shadow Moses Island, and the Summit would all have to be considered for bans. I think it'd be better to ban wall-infinites and Falco's LL, much like Wobbling was usually banned, to keep more stages playable. Stages will have to be tested too, but I think this is a pretty good place to start:

Neutral
Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)

Counter-Pick
All Neutral stages
Battleship Halberd
Bridge of Eldin (Falco LL)
Brinstar
Castle Siege (Falco LL)
Corneria (wall-infinite)
Delfino Plaza
Distant Planet
Electroplankton
Frigate Orpheon
Green Hill Zone (Falco LL)
Luigi's Mansion
Mario Circuit (Falco LL)
Norfair
Onett (wall-infinite, Falco LL)
Pictochat
Pokemon Stadium (wall-infinite)
Port Town Aero Dive
Rainbow Ride
Shadow Moses Island (wall-infinite, Falco LL)
Skyworld
The Summit (wall-infinite)
Yoshi Island (Melee)

Banned
Big Blue
Donkey Kong Arcade (haven't played...)
Hyrule Temple
Flat Zone 2
Mario Bros. Arcade
Mushroomy Kingdom
New Pork City
Pokemon Stadium 2
Rumble Falls
Spear Pillar
Wario Ware

Please let me know if I missed any levels, I'm pretty sure that's a complete list.

As for custom stages, they would be a riot to include, but I think they'll have to stay completely out of competitive/tournament play. We could definitely clear certain levels for tournaments as a community, but then as PC mentioned, you run into the annoyance of distributing them and players who've never seen/played the levels.
 

Gojira

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With his history, he doesn't follow the universal list...he just modifies them to benefit himself. :ohwell: This is the one big thing that he does that annoys me the most, so I always bring it up.[/QUOTE]

. FTS never allowed stages just because they benefited him. I am getting really annoyed of hearing this.
 

Tsuteto

火事で死ね
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*puts in two cents*

Tournaments should really cater more to the environment in which they're being held. I mean, let's put it this way. You could totally hold a soccer match in California in the middle of winter, but in Utah? Not going to happen. If you get that example, then you get what I'm saying.

Side note in reference to what PC said, "Leave it up to FTS to choose the list...and universal ban list? With his history, he doesn't follow the universal list...he just modifies them to benefit himself. This is the one big thing that he does that annoys me the most, so I always bring it up." This is the sole reason as to why I don't participate in tournaments that I am running or have had a major hand in setting up, unless it is based on other tournaments in which people have agreed that those rules are fair, and I've only had a hand in an am not running. That mainly pertains to the DDR community, but the same would apply here. I think it'd be AWESOME to hold a mine only tournament, but hey, then people would probably go, "It's in his advantage, he likes that," even though we all know it's not really. Sure, I might be able to recall more places in which mines have been layed, even on the likes of Temple, but there are people who can use them far better than I could at this point in time.

Moving on to the aspect of Brawl, people are trying to make this a competitive game. Let's take a look at Rock Band. Competitive? Possibly. Intended? No, not in the least. It was made as a party game, to get people together and to have fun. This was the intent of Brawl from what I can tell more so with the great amount of randomness that have been thrown into various levels (at least IMO). It's meant to have fun with, and y'all are trying to make it competitive because you want something new. You want competitive? Go play other 2D fighter such as Street Fighter or Guilty Gear, race around with games such as Initial D, whatever. The things that are meant for competition more so are the likes of Karate, Football, Basketball, something actual PHYSICAL, not virtual. Hell, even Chess and Pool are something safe in a competitive zone, and those are more mental. Not gaming, which should be more fun. Not to say that you can't have fun with the other things I've mentioned, but a competitive aspect is safely seen, and nothing wrong. Of course, there's always going to be competition in a game, but when you try to break a competition down into the science, then I no longer deem you a player but a godforsaken *******. You can't have fun unless there is something in the line. You want to put something on the line? Go fight gangs in New York. Too much? Then put your financial balance on the line in Vegas. Nothing should be on the line if you can't have fun with it, which half of you can, half of you do not.

Ugh, rant, yeah, but hey, whatever. Thanks for the link there FTS, I'll be reading all of that at a later time.

And yeah, I know half of that is confusing, but eh. I'm better ranting in person than over the net.
 

Perfect Chaos

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Well said, Layne. Although I can't see how you can laser lock on Green Hill Zone, as the level curves. Does the curve make the character fall/rise out of the range of the laser or does it act like a wall for one's going uphill?

It's funny that Onett, one of the best Fox stages, is allowed, when pretty much all major tournaments ban it. Coincidence? At least it isn't as bad now; I remember when the Yoshi's Island (Pipes) stage was allowed until the complaints about it came.

And Tsuteto, are you bashing on competitive Smash players, saying how we ruined it by making it competitive or something, in a competition-driven community? Now that's kind of "risky"... :p LOL Not really.
 

FoxTheStampede

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Well said, Layne..
As usual :) Layne's post so far is the closest to following the concepts in Sirlin's book.

Tsuteto, "meant to be competitive" is completely irrelevant to being competitive. Just because it's not intended to be competitive doesn't mean we can't play it competitively. A similar argument can be applied to the use of glitches, etc. Any human(s) vs human(s) game will be played competitively, until they are proved to be "broken"/"degenerate". That includes any game: sports, board games, video games, etc. Yes, Street Fighter and MvC2 are better fighting games for sure, but we still play Melee anyway.

It's better to think of "playing to win" as "playing to improve." Winning is how improvement is measured. Tournament rules are supposed to maximize the accuracy of a win in determining improvement. Competitive players consider improvement and strategy to be fun (that includes analyzing how the game works, which technically are the game's rules).

Sirlin's chapter about banning doesn't perfectly map to stages, since they include the possibility of a semi-ban and affect the battles far more than they should, but it's close enough.

^ Just a really quick summary of some of Sirlin's excellent points :p

Also, anyone who still thinks I am excited about Brawl enough to play in tournament hasn't been paying much attention lately... (meaning I don't have many informed opinions of my own, but I am considering everyone's opinion, based on the quality of their reasoning)

Lol can anyone tell I had the chance to get *****ed at by a real life scrub a few hours ago today? XD
 

Xsyven

And how!
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Tsuteto. This is Smashboards, a tournament-driven population. We're going to play it competitively.

Being competitive IS FUN. I like winning. I like challenging people that are better than me.





Onett is SBR banned, which means it should be banned. The vote of tons of well-respected smashers fares well better than that of a single FTS.

But the last, and final answer is that FTS is hosting, so we need to follow his rules.



Gojira, why is Onett legal in Utah, then? ;) Not that it even matters, seeing as I <3 the FTS cave for smashin'. I think it's a good trade, but I'm really curious to know WHY Onett is legal here.
 

Tsuteto

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@PC: I have no clue what the whole of the community is on the boards. If anyone has known me long enough, they know that I'm an adaptive person. I take what I've learned from elsewhere of similarities and apply them to that place. The similarity here is that of UtahDDR, which isn't as competitive as here. I figure though if I have an opinion, might as well voice it.

@FTS: That's the problem. Everything is always opinion based. Getting a collective opinion is the only thing that you can really do. It's the same as where if you please one person completely, you have lost another. You can only keep both by coming to a medium of which I still have far more experiences to come before truly understanding that concept, but at least I recognize the existence of said concept. And I somewhat have that same aspect of the whole improvement thing, but if you only good mad when you lose, then by my opinion you really shouldn't even be playing in a tournament standing quite yet anyway.

@Xsyven: Kind of what I said to PC, and kind of what I said to FTS. It's always new and exciting when you match up against someone you don't know. Hell, on the DDR scene, with In The Groove for a doubles tournaments, I have no clue what half the charts are, so it's always annoying when I have to play a chart first, seeing as it's purely a sightread, but I still do pretty well overall (half of it with an undying amount of luck it seems...) even though by a ranking standard most of the competition should be able to beat me.

@Others: I'm not trying to turn my side as a correct side or anything. If I was, I'd be very, VERY hypocritical right now. I'm just seeing that a good number of people are with-holding their opinion, and those who voice it don't really have it taken into effect for an official standing. We've got the people, but the order is based on two or three people, not the community.
 

Xsyven

And how!
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why is jungle japes legal? why is Corneria legal?

Tell me, why should onette be banned other then its a good fox level.
Jungle Japes and Corneria were voted legal by the SBR. Obviously, tons of pro players voted for it to be legal for some reason. The same people voted for Onett to be banned.

I'm a follower when it comes to the opinions of pros in large groups. I'm just confused as to why FTS wants to change that. And the fact that it's a FOX level, and he's a FOX main makes us think that he changed it for his personal benefit.

Not that it's a bad thing. I just want to know why HE CHOSE for it to be legal at HIS tournaments.


It's probably because it benefits himself. Gojira, don't beat around the bush. What's his reasoning, since you obviously know what FTS is thinking?

I'm honestly not trying to flame FTS, I just don't see what all the denial is about. =/
 

lengeta

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I want to add to what Tsuteto said. I think he's right, but things need to go a little farther. Brawl is a "party game," and as such it has great potential to generate interest among videogamers. It's fun, and I argue that it is fun because it's a party game, and that's why this community exists. I feel we need to embrace Smash Bros. for what it is, because I genuinely believe that's why so many people love to play it. People here don't want to play Soul Caliber and Street Fighter (generalization), they want to play Smash Bros. We shouldn't try to change the game, it's what's unique about it that makes it so much better than other fighters out there (IMO).

That said, to play Brawl in all of it's mighty glory of timed, 4-way matches that are chaotic fun for everyone definitely doesn't work for a competitive scene. Tweeks have to be made if we desire to play beyond friendlies. This is why rule-sets are made, and certain stages and items are banned. We have to make the game work competitively. I just feel that we should adhere to as much of the actual game as we possibly can, and the true scrubs are the ones who can't handle their sword-swinging opponent getting possession of a limited-shot laser gun. Items are cheap at times, but no more than never being able to wield one.





As for ACTUAL talk on bans and whatnot, it is still early in the game's development (as players I mean). So early in fact THE GAME ISN'T EVEN FLIPPIN' OUT YET! Wall-infinites and Falco's Laser-Lock could still totally be avoidable. Both are techniques either player can exploit, so it's not even really an unfair advantage, technically. I do feel that at the moment they are game-breaking though, and if there's no alternative, either these moves must be banned, or barriers that allow them to take place must be banned.

As for Green Hill zone, both ends of the dip are flat, so if Falco could still Laser-lock an opponent of the edge. Definitely much more difficult here as there's less room, but it's still possible so needs to be taken into consideration. Other things of note are moving stages such as Delfino Plaza and Battleship Halberd, and stages with hazards such as Port City and, again, Battleship Halberd. What movements and hazards are too much? In Melee Big Blue was banned, but Brinstar was not. Now there's Spear Pillar which will sometimes reverse your controls (left is right, right is left) and even spin the level upside-down. What's going to be too much?



::EDIT::
I'll also test to see what actually happens on Green Hill's curve, if it will act as a wall or if a character will slide out of the Laser-Lock. I should have video ready to go too, so hopefully I can actually document it and put it up on YouTube for everyone to confirm. That also reminds me, anything in particular anyone wants to see?
 

Gojira

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CHUCK NORRIS FOR BRAWL!!!
Jungle Japes and Corneria were voted legal by the SBR. Obviously, tons of pro players voted for it to be legal for some reason. The same people voted for Onett to be banned.

I'm a follower when it comes to the opinions of pros in large groups. I'm just confused as to why FTS wants to change that. And the fact that it's a FOX level, and he's a FOX main makes us think that he changed it for his personal benefit.

Not that it's a bad thing. I just want to know why HE CHOSE for it to be legal at HIS tournaments

It's probably because it benefits himself. Gojira, don't beat around the bush. What's his reasoning, since you obviously know what FTS is thinking?

I'm honestly not trying to flame FTS, I just don't see what all the denial is about. =/

why hasn't FTS banned onette? you want to know? Well i said it in my last post but i deleted it here it is again...

Onette is a good fox stage so? Brinstar is a crazy good jigglypuff stage that provides really unfair environmental conditions. You cant ban a stage because a character is GOOD there...no that doesn't work. Onette does have camping issues yes, but so do alot of other stages that are not banned such as Coneria and jungle japes.

So stop saying " Utah's fox main only allows stages that favor him". I bet my buttons that if FTS was insanely good with jigglypuff everyone would be bashing brinstar saying it should be banned.


You cannot BAN stages because CHARACTERS are good there. If that was the case we would have practically no playable stages. So that leaves the argument open "Onette is a campy level" well guess what? So are Corneria and Jungle japes.
 

Xsyven

And how!
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Corneria, Jungle Japes, and Brinstar- as I said before, are SBR legal.

Read my posts, buddy. :(
 

lengeta

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I'll have Brawl opening day/hour/minute/second, but I already sort of have it, sort of. -_^

I also talked with Bobo about doing a SmashFest on the 29th and/or the 1st. Eric, the owner of the modded Wii, isn't home right now, but I'll ask him if it's cool if I borrow it for a day or two as soon as I see him. I'll keep yah's posted as events develops, hopefully there'll be some Brawl for ya'll.




As for my feelings on Onett, it was always an "up in the air" stage IMO; some people banned it, some didn't. I remember having a lot of discussion about official Utah rules, including what stages should and shouldn't be banned back before we had the rankings and a panel. This is why there needs to be community involvement, so problems like this won't happen. I don't feel Nate's been cheating or anything though. If people were unhappy with Onett they would've/should've voiced their concern. I also don't think Nate would scheme such manipulation (I suppose I could be wrong... :/ ?). I only remember this being talked about at one tournament too, but not really discussed if Utah should ban it or not. I did miss a lot of tournaments though...
 

Xsyven

And how!
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St. George is getting a midnight release. :D

I'll probably be online at like, 10AM after pulling an all-nighter and unlocking all the characters. You guys should challenge me then.
 

lengeta

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From my extremely small experience with Play'n'Trade, I love them. They need to overtake GameStop's position as the biggest videogame retailer.
 

C!Z

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Wow that was a bunch of bullsit I just read... Where to start... First items should be banned! Sure the game was created with items but that doesn't mean that the creators of the game are concerned about competitive play when they're making it, they're just tryin to sell the dam thing. There's so many great aspects to the game but that doesn't mean it's perfect. Why do you think all games that are nationally competitive have some sort of rules regarding to the game?! People play and test the game and take out anything that could possibly be unfair or in the competitive skilled players mind "LUCK". Smash is a great game because of the freedom to move about and of course L-Cancelling and Teching. Smash is the most skill based game I've ever played and that's why I love it so much, it's all you. Items only ruin that. So for a competitive scene the most luck that can be possibly be taken out of the game should be, why do you think MLG does? If you wanna play with items play friendlies with whoever the h3ll you want, nobody is tellin you to come play with people who care about skill.
On the issue of Onett, yes Nate kept the stage to cater to his character but oh well that's done and over with and if you didn't like the fckin stage you should have BANNED IT!
 

lengeta

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I just personally think that playing with items takes the greater amount of skill, and counters very nicely against camping and stalling tactics. Most items do need to be banned though, but getting lucky still isn't part of the game with only the right items on. I think items add depth rather than take it away.

Also, items were very commonplace in tournaments before it was deemed that an exploding capsule or box could pop out right in front of you, and that was too much. Brawl has fixed that issue.

In your own words: "If you wanna play without items play friendlies with whoever the h3ll you want, nobody is tellin you to come play with people who care about skill." The community does seem to be on your side though, but I think they're still trying to play Melee. I am guessing that in the end we won't be seeing items though. That won't stop me from coming to tournaments, and I'm not going to complain that "no itums is teh ghey," it's still the greatest game of all time without them. I just think it's ever so slightly better with them.
 

al-x_clip

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i'm new

hello i am a fellow smasher who lives in utah i havent been going to any following tournements but i will try my hardest to go to brawl tourneys so if anyone could help me out and inform me that would be great
 

Ken Neth

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I'm leaning towards no items, but I say we try them out and see how they effect the game play before we decide if they should be allowed or not.

PS: I finally got my wii hooked up to the internet.
<<There's my wii # <<
 

lengeta

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hello i am a fellow smasher who lives in utah i havent been going to any following tournements but i will try my hardest to go to brawl tourneys so if anyone could help me out and inform me that would be great
Utah's a pretty shoddy state for videogames, but we've got a really good community for Smash Bros. (luckily!) Welcome to the forums, and the community I suppose. You've picked an opportune time to join.
 

Junpappy

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The following statement is a fact: StarCraft is the most tech-skill intense game that is played competitively. Averaging between 6 and 7 actions per second for a period of 10-20 minutes at a time, sometimes more, is ridiculous.

Brawl is a new game, and as much as I'd like to jump the gun and support a total ban of items, we don't know how differently it will play from Melee. As long as we can turn off the random explosive nature of capsules and such, I see no reason to come to a conclusion until we've tested the various items and stages, unless the SBR does all of that for us.
 

Tsuteto

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Here's a thought: Most of us are bound to get the game (I'm not included), so we can all decided from what items we can ban at THAT point in time when we've played it a lot, as well as make a list of items that we deem as "ban worthy" but can't make a full decision. For example, Bobombs (I probably screwed the spelling of that up). I, personally, think they are ban worthy, but they are still acceptable. At that point, the community would decide as to whether it can be used or not at the next tournament or smash fest or whatever.

A basic deciding formula could be, for the first step, 60% or more votes will have the decision stay (being one of three options: ban, undecided, keep), and then at the next gathering, 75% or more votes will have that decision stay (being one of two options: ban or keep).

Like I said, basic formula there, and this is just a thought, but honestly I think it's the most fair for a community as a whole to start out as a base. We're not going to have a perfect tournament until about half a year later, which will be as fair as it gets due to the time it takes to place in.

@al-x clip: Where do you live? If you're in Orem or Provo, we should get together and smash it up, considering the last smash fest was a flop because there wasn't enough interest... I'm never doing a last minute planning again XP
 

Dai-A

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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omg lets have another freaking tournament!!!!! i dont want to play a whole different game yet! brawl is looking no el bueno to me (yes i copied you C!Z) :laugh:
 
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