Using UpB as an offensive move.

[Pierce7d]

I'll just quote the three posts from your Q&A thread. I just wanted more Falcos to talk with, and I didn't know if you all read your Q&A thread. I know that if it's not something simple, I really wouldn't want to discuss it for pages on that type of thread.

I have a question/proposal? Do Falco's ever use UpB offensively/to tech chase? At the end of this post, if you want to point me to an old topic, or start a new one, I'd be happy to oblige.

I used to/kinda still do secondary Falco (though I only use Marth in tourney and for anything serious, and only break out Falco on request)

Naturally, Falco is a lot more technical than Marth, so I keep my skills sharp in training mode every once in a while. Shoot double lasers at Kirby for an hour, practice Dash Attack Canceled Pivot Grabs and USmashes, test out new chainthrow combinations, etc.

It occurred to me how potentially underused Fire Falco is as an approach.

Now, READ BEFORE POSTING, because I don't intend for people to activate Fire Falco and blast at their opponent, pretending it won't get shielded and punished.

Most of the time, Falco camps, this is true, but very often, when you are in your opponent's face, they will choose a defensive option. If you run in your opponent's face, pass them by a little bit, so you can't get shield grabbed, and then activate Fire Falco, you are almost completely safe. By the time your opponent realizes what you just did, you have protective flames on startup, and they will hit your opponent/shield stab. It will also win vs a spot dodge, which is a popular defense to Falco's approach, because he likes to grab.

Furthermore, This move can punish a left or right roll, and chase. It can also follow a jump into the air. Most importantly, you can just retreat if your opponent does something smart.

Obviously, there are some opponent's you wouldn't do this to, like Marth, since he can just UpB you. But it's good on many other characters.

The most important part about this, is that since you never use Fire Falco offensively, your opponent will most likely fail to DI correctly. It can potentially deal over 25%.

If an opponent is lying on the floor, (this happens often if Falco Dairs them into the ground), Phantasm will tech chase very well, but might overshoot the stage, and you might die, and it also deals very little damage. This can force them to stand up (or they will get burned and blasted, and it can tech chase any direction.

After a getting phantasm on the ground at low percents, an opponent generally air dodges. Falco is generally with is back to the opponent, ending his phantasm lag right behind them. This might be another OKAY time to employ firefox.

Lastly, SH Fire Falco right below an opponent wo is weak from below might call out their airdodge, and allow you to catch them with this move.

Anyone try this ever/have any success with this?

Pierce that has never even remotely crossed my mind. I see now how it can be used as a tech chase. For some characters if you land it it leads to a laser lock. Good ****.

Pierce never even posts here but the one time he does its epic.

Yeah, the CPU Falco, often just did a rising attack to win, but not everytime, and it can catch a player that always rolls off guard.

Please discuss with me.

 

[Mith_]

doh, i posted in this threadm then smashboards shut down. ill edit this post 2moro.

 

[Sandst0rm]

Really informative, Pierce. I actually do the sh dair into fire falco occasionally. I started doing it b/c I saw it as useful before I even knew what tech chasing was. xD

 

[Vlade]

It's very situational. It's best use may be for a punishing move, but I would much rather punish with a grab in which I can follow-up.

We'll have to experiment with it, because it isn't something to be dismissed.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I haven't use Fire Falco in so long I can't remember, what are the KO percentages? Also I doubt this'd work on my opponent more then once, it's easy to catch on to and punishable.

 

[ShenCS]

Can you use this at the end of a Dthrow chaingrab at the end of the stage? IIRC You can aim back towards the middle of the stage and they'll still get damaged and knocked back. That extra % would be nice if you don't feel you could land the Dair.

 

[NJzFinest]

I like to use it, it barely has any ending lag.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

If it damaged in charge up(it does) and had the KO power like it did in Melee, it would kick arse

 

[mongoosedog927]

I had no idea it could deal up to 25% damage. I have seen grounded firebird to laser lock. I don't know when it could be appilied in a real life situation though.

 

[pure_awesome]

I'm not sure if it can be considered a solid option considering everything else Falco can do.

The main problem is that most characters can SDI out of the move very easily due to it's multi-hit properties and the fact that it travels across the stage at a decent rate. Most characters can SDI through Falco and avoid the last hit, much like Wolf's UpB. I'm not sure if people will actually try to do this, though. It's possible that seeing Fire Falco used as an offensive move will just take your opponent too much by surprise and deal that 25+ percent. It's also possible that in the heat of the moment, they'll just DI like they do with Wolf's UpB, which is well known and will unfortunately get you out of Fire Falco.

Now, this isn't a massive deal, it's still very hard to punish due to the super-small amount of ending lag, but the fact is that proper SDI can consistently reduce the damage this move does to 4-5% is kind of a downer. I've also seen many characters' get-up attacks cut through the start-up flames, and I wouldn't be surprised if the flames had transcendental priority, or just plain no priority at all.

Overall, I don't think this is something we can just look at on paper, or test out in training mode and say "Yeah, that works great." It's going to be one of the few things that needs to see a bit of competitive use so we know how people will react. Imagine landing this on MK? That's like... 80%, or something, and it has the potential to end in laser lock (though not a very long one), all while keeping Upsmash fresh.

 

[Mith_]

well lemme see. you CG them off the level but miss the spike. instead of jumping back on, jump towards them and up+B back on the level. if they DI away from the stage you will make it back safely. if they DI towards the stage you will hit them with the end of it. if they DI up you will land on the stage and at least get a laser in since you get no landing lag.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Sounds interesting Pierce, albeit very situational. I might see if I can implement this into my game as a mixup on a techchase or something just to throw people off.

 

[magikguy]

never thought of using it as tech chase move . I think it would work great once for being as a surprise attack.

 

[Zhamy]

Just a thought -

Fox can achieve the same kind of effect, but it's really a gimmick move rather than a staple in his game. I've pulled it off once or twice during a match, but that's pretty much the only chance you'll get it.

However, if you do pull it off, it really screws with your opponent. You'll be surprised at how much more defensive they'll get. Just my two cents.

 

[vKo]

I like to use it, it barely has any ending lag.

The hell, I swatted at your sig, thinkin' ants were on my screen.
Haha.

But yeah, I incorporate Firebird into my game.
It's usually just when I'm recovering and my opponent expects me to Phantasm.
They either charge a smash or swing because of the Phantasm's speed but the Firebird start-up outlast both attack attempts.
A verrrrrry nice 20% right there.

It does however have crap priority and if properly DI'd out of, will get you sent.

Oh and NOTICE when trying it on Mario:
NEVER try it.
Phantasm and Firebird can obviously be caped and you'll feel like s*** whenever either happens.
At least with Firebird, you can avoid it by shooting straight upward.
Either fastfall and sidestep (Falco's dodge is quick enough somehow, always works for me) or try and land behind him cause he'll most likely charge a 'Kamehameha' >smash.

 

[Orion*]

i definitely did this to you like 6 times in our friendly sets at the SWR smashfest by accident (cold hands johnz XD). when i realized that you didnt really punish it i actually have started using it, i think i even hit Munk with it in my last tourny set with him. It surprisingly works well.

NJz finest your sig is evil V_V
i hit my screen to XD