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US Senate Repeals "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

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Dre89

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How is this debate back to discussing whether or not "gays in the media the media" and other crap can "turn you gay?" Besides the singular godawful source that Merkuri brought up, there's been no other "evidence" for that point. As well as a heaping amount of evidence against it.
It's not even debateable that that sexuality has psychological influences. We know that that various cultures have sexualised different things, things that in this culture we would consider bizarre. Serial killer profilers exist virtually entirely because of sexuality being psychologically influenced. Sexual fetishes are influenced by childhood events. There are a plethora of examples I could go on about.

Apparently, studies have shown that homosexuality (perhaps not in all cases) is linked to specific relations with male-role models (I'm assuming this is in reference to gay men), or lack of those relationships. Studies have also shown that the majority of homosexuals have a dislike for the other sex. However, the problem wth using statistics in any debate is that the opposition will just say it's biased, without proving it, and assume their statistics are superior and unbaised, without proving that either, so statistic wars always end up getting nowhere.

But again, it's not even debateable that sexuality is influenced by psychological factors.
 

El Nino

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It's not even debateable that that sexuality has psychological influences.
Just to clarify, "gays in the media" is a cultural influence, not a directly psychological one.

Apparently, studies have shown that homosexuality (perhaps not in all cases) is linked to specific relations with male-role models (I'm assuming this is in reference to gay men), or lack of those relationships.
I've heard that too. I don't believe the link was ever proven to be causal, though. Meaning, it could be that traditional male role models simply don't appeal to many gay males while growing up.
 

Dre89

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But that seems like drawing an improbable conclusion due to prior bias. It also doesn't account for the fact that most homosexuals dislike the other sex.

I think neglect or lack of a male role model could mean the child fails to develop masculine traits, and as a result adopts more from the female role model, including sexuality. Just a theory though.
 

SuperBowser

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Correlation is not causality. There are numerous reasons such a correlation may exist (if it does).

The most obvious being they have a poor relationship with male rolemodels because they are gay.
 

Shadic

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Links, please.

Oh, and another thing: is it not preposterous that Merkuri is demanding that gays "stop being themselves," so that he wouldn't as a parent have to explain that not everybody is straight? If arguing that it's too hard to explain to your little six year old why Timmy down the street "has two daddies," then perhaps you shouldn't be a parent in the first place.

And to suggest that other people should change/hide a core of their being (sexuality) because you don't feel like talking about it is extremely self-centered.
 

Merkuri

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For a change, actually prove how I am wrong rather than just brown shirt someone until they give up in frustration.
Since you've diverted so far from the original point I was trying to address allow me to bring it back up again. You wrote

anti-homosexuality is always homophobic. Homophobic is a fear of the homosexual life style, and fear is often displayed by anger.
I spent the last few posts describing scenarios in which you someone would be opposed to homosexuality, and where that opposition does not stem from fear or antipathy towards homosexuals or homosexuality itself; but you insist on continuously changing the topic and ignoring my comments instead of admitting you made a stupid claim.

How is this debate back to discussing whether or not "gays in the media the media" and other crap can "turn you gay?" Besides the singular godawful source that Merkuri brought up, there's been no other "evidence" for that point. As well as a heaping amount of evidence against it.
No one here has brought up any evidence or sources that gays in the media will not influence someone to become homosexuality. The claim you make that gays in the media will not influence my child's sexual orientation is just the same as the claim I make that it will influence my child's sexual orientation. All your points have been moot.
 

Luigitoilet

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It's not even debateable that that sexuality has psychological influences. We know that that various cultures have sexualised different things, things that in this culture we would consider bizarre. Serial killer profilers exist virtually entirely because of sexuality being psychologically influenced. Sexual fetishes are influenced by childhood events. There are a plethora of examples I could go on about.

Apparently, studies have shown that homosexuality (perhaps not in all cases) is linked to specific relations with male-role models (I'm assuming this is in reference to gay men), or lack of those relationships. Studies have also shown that the majority of homosexuals have a dislike for the other sex. However, the problem wth using statistics in any debate is that the opposition will just say it's biased, without proving it, and assume their statistics are superior and unbaised, without proving that either, so statistic wars always end up getting nowhere.

But again, it's not even debateable that sexuality is influenced by psychological factors.
Sources please.
 

Shadic

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No one here has brought up any evidence or sources that gays in the media will not influence someone to become homosexuality. The claim you make that gays in the media will not influence my child's sexual orientation is just the same as the claim I make that it will influence my child's sexual orientation. All your points have been moot.
Wrong. That's not how points work. If you want to make a point with your correlation, the burden of proof is on you.
 

Dragoon Fighter

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@ Merkuri I am really curious as to what your answers would be to this post. I understand if you need time to think about it, in that case just say so. I know you have your hands full, so I can wait for a response, but I do wish a response at some point with in the week.
 

GreenKirby

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I don't get the "gays in the media can turn someone gay"

If that's the case, considering the rampamt "heterosexuality in the media" now, by that logic, why isn't everyone on Earth straight?

Hell, if it's media only, how does Merkuri explain homosexuality in certain animals that do it willingly?
 

Dre89

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With the correlation, if you replaced it with Christianity and lower IQ role models, I bet no one would challenge those statistics.

Again, Merkuri doesn't speak for me.

We expect pedophiles to surpress their sexuality, so if we find homosexuality to be wrong for some reason, asking them to surpress their sexuality is a reasonable request, as we ask it of others.

It's misleading to label animals as homosexuals, as often homosexual behaviour is just seeking sexual gratification with the best thing possible, rather than a strict preference for the same gender.
 

Merkuri

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Wrong. That's not how points work. If you want to make a point with your correlation, the burden of proof is on you.
Oh I know that, I was just pointing out that your statement that there is a lot of evidence against it was ********.


@ Merkuri I am really curious as to what your answers would be to this post. I understand if you need time to think about it, in that case just say so. I know you have your hands full, so I can wait for a response, but I do wish a response at some point with in the week.
I made a posts conceding my early posts a long time ago because admittedly I di not know enough about the topic. Just ignore anything anything I posted in the first 4 pages or so of this thread. The problem with my kids being influenced by homosexuality in the media is they may grow up with the notion that being gay is ok, and that is detrimental to my blood line.
 

Shadic

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With the correlation, if you replaced it with Christianity and lower IQ role models, I bet no one would challenge those statistics.
Wrong. And it's a stupid claim to make. And just because people don't challenge certain statements to the same degree doesn't mean you get a free pass at saying whatever you want without providing evidence.

We expect pedophiles to surpress their sexuality, so if we find homosexuality to be wrong for some reason, asking them to surpress their sexuality is a reasonable request, as we ask it of others.
Hooboy. Never takes very long for somebody to make this comparison.

Pedophilia takes advantage of those who are not old enough for 1) sexual contact, and 2) to legally consent. It is considered **** for a reason. Two consenting adults of the same gender would be an entirely different scenario.

Oh, not to mention pedophilia directly impacts another person. Two dudes bangin' in their bedroom? How does that impact you? I find it hilarious that you think you're so important that anything you don't like should be outlawed, regardless of the actual consequences of that "thing."

Oh I know that, I was just pointing out that your statement that there is a lot of evidence against it was ********.
Not really. Others have provided substantial evidence. That is what I was referring to - things already mentioned in this thread.
 

Luigitoilet

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We expect pedophiles to surpress their sexuality, so if we find homosexuality to be wrong for some reason, asking them to surpress their sexuality is a reasonable request, as we ask it of others.

.
Could you explain what you find so wrong with homosexuality that you compare it to the abuse and molestation of a child? Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be avoiding this question as it's been asked several times.

You also have not provided any sources for your previous claims.
 

SuperBowser

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With the correlation, if you replaced it with Christianity and lower IQ role models, I bet no one would challenge those statistics.
First of all, I'm not sure such a correlation exists.

Second of all, that doesn't address anything I said. I'll repeat for you: correlation is not causation. It's nice you thought of an example, but that doesn't give you free reign to make inane inferences for every correlation you observe in the world.
 

Merkuri

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Wrong. And it's a stupid claim to make. And just because people don't challenge certain statements to the same degree doesn't mean you get a free pass at saying whatever you want without providing evidence.


Hooboy. Never takes very long for somebody to make this comparison.

Pedophilia takes advantage of those who are not old enough for 1) sexual contact, and 2) to legally consent. It is considered **** for a reason. Two consenting adults of the same gender would be an entirely different scenario.

Oh, not to mention pedophilia directly impacts another person. Two dudes bangin' in their bedroom? How does that impact you? I find it hilarious that you think you're so important that anything you don't like should be outlawed, regardless of the actual consequences of that "thing."


God you're dumb. He already said that his argument considers that homosexuality is wrong for some reason. He's not equating the two. You first paragraph is of the substance a toddler would post. Don't just state something is wrong if you can't provide a sound explanation as to why it is wrong.

Not really. Others have provided substantial evidence. That is what I was referring to - things already mentioned in this thread.
Like what? Provide me with this evidence or I stick to my former opinion that you are an idiot.

Edit: Oh my http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=13722
 

Merkuri

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Yeah you're probably right. Sorry about that Shadic.

I'm really thinking of making a thread on the link I just posted. People need to read that article.
 

Evil Eye

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Your single citation is from a blatantly biased journalistic group.

Here are some of the headlines on the front page:

-Classic Nazi-Islam book is back

-General: Muslim 'moderates' plot undoing of America

-Scalia: Constitution allows discrimination based on sex

-Killer psalm? Bible verse deemed as threat on Obama's life

-Tim Tebow moves Bible verse to wrist

-U.S. Christian group: Jesus returning May 21

-U.S.-Mexico border vanishes under Obama agency program

-Obama wants Jews to pay terror-supporting state


Here's the headline to one of their "special offers": Can we know the time Jesus actually returns?


Here's the headline for an article about the repealing of don't ask don't tell: Stop this social experiment now!


One of the targeted adds is www.HideYourGuns.com


They also pushed the Birther belief forward, of all damn things.


Getting the picture, yet? That website is partisan garbage, the kind of journalism forged from butchered facts, hearsay, stretches of logic, henpecked studies, iffy citations, outright lies and other "evidence after the verdict" techniques. It's the kind of investigative journalism that is supposed to reach a particular conclusion before the investigation begins, and the target readership is people who want their views reaffirmed, not either reaffirmed or challenged by authetic reporting.

There's more impartiality and integrity in the piss I just took than that entire site's publication history.

Get the picture?
 

Merkuri

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Your single citation is from a blatantly biased journalistic group.

Here are some of the headlines on the front page:

-Classic Nazi-Islam book is back

-General: Muslim 'moderates' plot undoing of America

-Scalia: Constitution allows discrimination based on sex

-Killer psalm? Bible verse deemed as threat on Obama's life

-Tim Tebow moves Bible verse to wrist

-U.S. Christian group: Jesus returning May 21

-U.S.-Mexico border vanishes under Obama agency program

-Obama wants Jews to pay terror-supporting state


Here's the headline to one of their "special offers": Can we know the time Jesus actually returns?


Here's the headline for an article about the repealing of don't ask don't tell: Stop this social experiment now!


One of the targeted adds is www.HideYourGuns.com


They also pushed the Birther belief forward, of all damn things.


Getting the picture, yet? That website is partisan garbage, the kind of journalism orged from butchered facts, hearsay, stretches of logic, henpecked studies, iffy citations, outright lies and other "evidence after the verdict" techniques. It's the kind of investigative journalism that is supposed to reach a particular conclusion before the investigation begins, and the target readership is people who want their views reaffirmed, not either reaffirmed or challenged by authetic reporting.

There's more impartiality and integrity in the piss I just took than that entire site's publication history.

Get the picture?
Lol dude the people doing the reporting doesn't matter, all that matters is the research and the research gives multiple credible citations so much that is being published by a reputable scholarly journal. It doesn't matter if WorldNetDaily has an agenda because they don't speak on behalf of Baldwin(the primary researcher); try taking a science class sometime.

And judging from your tone I don't think you should be accusing anyone of being biased.

Edit: How do people feel that 3 out of 4 of the people responsible the New York's Times content is homosexual? I always wondered why the New York times never had any anti homosexual articles, I think it's kind of screwed up that data is being skewed this way.
 

Evil Eye

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I'd reply to you if I hadn't foreseen your entire argument already.

Let's see what points in my post pre-debunked your rebuttal!

Getting the picture, yet? That website is partisan garbage, the kind of journalism orged from butchered facts, hearsay, stretches of logic, henpecked studies, iffy citations, outright lies and other "evidence after the verdict" techniques.
Swish.

It's the kind of investigative journalism that is supposed to reach a particular conclusion before the investigation begins,
He shoots he scores.

and the target readership is people who want their views reaffirmed, not either reaffirmed or challenged by authetic reporting.
Aaaand I shall retire on the hat trick.

Good day to you.
 

Merkuri

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Source please.
It's in the link I posted http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=13722


I'd reply to you if I hadn't foreseen your entire argument already.

Let's see what points in my post pre-debunked your rebuttal!



Swish.



He shoots he scores.



Aaaand I shall retire on the hat trick.

Good day to you.
LMAO. You're dumb. I know I said I'd stop doing that but I couldn't helped it. Dude Worldnetdaily.net did not carry out the research, they are independent from the research, and simply chose to report on it and interview the researcher. The research is not affiliated with worldnetdaily.
 

Evil Eye

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It doesn't matter. I literally explained to you why their investigative journalism was fallacious from the very beginning, and thus why no conclusions they come to or research they draw this from can be trusted.

Find me a single reputable website that reports these same findings. Surely, a scientific breakthrough of this magnitude -- if it is not a crock of **** -- will be reported all over the internet.

And the fact that you cite WND as evidence that 75% of the NYT staff is homosexual shows you don't have a shred of objectivity in your body on this, so I'm done for tonight. Have fun in the haystack looking for that imaginary needle. Maybe I'll tear apart your asinine claims some more if you can produce a single credible source for anything you say.


EDIT: By the way, WND is disguising the blatant bias of their "research" through a very long chain of citation.

Jon Dougherty, who wrote this article, is citing the research of Steve Baldwin.

Here's a quote from that interview:

"It is difficult to convey the dark side of the homosexual culture without appearing harsh," wrote Baldwin. "However, it is time to acknowledge that homosexual behavior threatens the foundation of Western civilization – the nuclear family."
Get over yourself. They wouldn't have chosen this researcher if he wasn't biased right down to his marrow. They may have been "independent" of his research, but that doesn't make it any less of a pile of ****. Of course, I shouldn't have had to go this far explaining this to you, since I already broke down why sources like WND cannot be trusted, even if they supposedly have citations.

Baldwin is not a man of any actual esteem himself, either. If his own words aren't enough to prove his bias, let me point out that the Council for National Policy is hardly the objective and official organization its name would have you believe. No, it is merely a networking group for social conservative activists. And thus, I reiterate -- evidence after the verdict.

But Baldwin is himself drawing from yet another source, Judith Reisman. So, this is not even second-hand reporting. It's third-hand. That's a whooole lot of filtering. Good thing everybody's on the same page with their prejudices!

Dr. Reisman's own words said:
“Kinsey’s secret life was lived out in his attic and in the gay baths and brothels. Instead of the staid college professor, Kinsey was a bisexual bully whose pornographic and masturbatory obsessions were expressed in his sexual harassment of young male students, sex with his male ‘subjects,’ brutal and bloody acts of ritualistic sexual self-torture, and sexual coercion of the staff wives….Kinsey used pedophiles to molest infants and children and submitted information regarding these crimes for inclusion in his books….He also collected information on homosexuality and bisexuality and offered this to his readers and students as ‘scientific data,’ although the majority of the data were merely the adulterous and homosexual acts between himself, his male colleagues, their wives and similar deviants.”
Well golly gee, doesn't that sound like an impartial scientific mind!

By the way, WND is totally affiliated with the research. Here's an article on her website.

Gee, on her own website, the headline says a WND exclusive. How quaint.

In this interview she specifically states that her doctorate is in "Communications Studies, focusing on mass media effects". Her credentials effectively relate to the work of a statistician. The beauty of statistics is that they can be manipulated if the collector has an agenda to do so. Considering her direct ties to WND, she does.

This is a woman who thinks kids "stopped smoking" because of John Wayne appearing on television. What a logical and diligent person she is, clearly in touch with the reality of the world.

This article reveals a lot of interesting things about Dr. Reisman. In particular, many of her yet-to-be-printed works are in fact going to be in print from World Net Daily Publishing. Don't believe me? Check amazon.


Independent from the research, huh?
 

Merkuri

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No no you misunderstood me. I meant a real source.
That source in particular comes from the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association. You need to provide evidence to discredit them instead of simply proclaiming that it's an invalid source because that suits your argument.

I'm disappointed in you, as much as I disliked you LT I thought you were a sound debater.

@That other guy: I'll respond to you later, I'm not n the mood for sheer stupidity right now.
 

SuperBowser

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It's in the link I posted http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=13722




LMAO. You're dumb. I know I said I'd stop doing that but I couldn't helped it. Dude Worldnetdaily.net did not carry out the research, they are independent from the research, and simply chose to report on it and interview the researcher. The research is not affiliated with worldnetdaily.
This "research" is clearly biased. The best publication Baldwin could find acceptance from is a journal called Regent Law; a group whose aim is to promote the "Law of God" http://www.regent.edu/acad/schlaw/student_life/studentorgs/lawreview/home.cfm.

This is the sort of "research" that belongs in a bin.
 

Luigitoilet

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That source in particular comes from the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association. You need to provide evidence to discredit them instead of simply proclaiming that it's an invalid source because that suits your argument.

I'm disappointed in you, as much as I disliked you LT I thought you were a sound debater.

@That other guy: I'll respond to you later, I'm not n the mood for sheer stupidity right now.
No, that source comes from Dr. Judith Reisman, who is not affiliated with NLGJA.
 

Luigitoilet

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What's wrong with NYT having homosexual editors?

Did WNT publish a study that shows homosexuals are more likely to be stupid?
Merkuri thinks this implies a gay propaganda agenda. He's weakly grasping at straws to try and save his drowning argument.

Well okay, not drowning. Already drowned and bloated argument.
 

Merkuri

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Merkuri thinks this implies a gay propaganda agenda. He's weakly grasping at straws to try and save his drowning argument.

Well okay, not drowning. Already drowned and bloated argument.
Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not suggesting an agenda, I'm suggesting a link between pedophilia and homosexuality. My argument is drowning at all? Ever heard of weasel words?

Edit: It's also beyond me how people are refuting claims that come directly from the gay community.
 
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how does stating that NYT is 3/4 homosexual support your claim at all? Is NYT a pedophile newspaper now? I didn't see a story about that on the WNT front page so I couldn't blindly take it as fact.
 

Luigitoilet

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Don't put words in my mouth. I'm not suggesting an agenda, I'm suggesting a link between pedophilia and homosexuality. My argument is drowning at all? Ever heard of weasel words?

Edit: It's also beyond me how people are refuting claims that come directly from the gay community.
Merkuri, that quote comes from Dr. Reisman. She is not affiliated with the gay community. Find me a real quote from NLGA that supports what she says.

Also, you completely ignored EE's post which quite frankly decimated your entire argument. good job!
 

Merkuri

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how does stating that NYT is 3/4 homosexual support your claim at all? Is NYT a pedophile newspaper now? I didn't see a story about that on the WNT front page so I couldn't blindly take it as fact.
Umm you know I just asked people what they thought of that, I wasn't using it as evidence as anything. However it becomes an interesting thought when you consider that the New York never(not that I've ever seen and I challenge anyone to cite me such an article within the past 5 years) feature anything even slightly anti-homosexual. From that information it's entirely reasonable to assume that they're complete pro homosexual.
 

Luigitoilet

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Umm you know I just asked people what they thought of that, I wasn't using it as evidence as anything. However it becomes an interesting thought when you consider that the New York never(not that I've ever seen and I challenge anyone to cite me such an article within the past 5 years) feature anything even slightly anti-homosexual. From that information it's entirely reasonable to assume that they're complete pro homosexual.
The problem here is nobody has cited New York Times in this argument, whereas you have cited WND as a factual source. You are deliberately ignoring major points others have made. Instead of responding to these, you more or less change the subject. Points such as:

"Baldwin is not a man of any actual esteem himself, either. If his own words aren't enough to prove his bias, let me point out that the Council for National Policy is hardly the objective and official organization its name would have you believe. No, it is merely a networking group for social conservative activists. And thus, I reiterate -- evidence after the verdict.

But Baldwin is himself drawing from yet another source, Judith Reisman. So, this is not even second-hand reporting. It's third-hand. That's a whooole lot of filtering. Good thing everybody's on the same page with their prejudices!

Dr. Reisman's own words:

“Kinsey’s secret life was lived out in his attic and in the gay baths and brothels. Instead of the staid college professor, Kinsey was a bisexual bully whose pornographic and masturbatory obsessions were expressed in his sexual harassment of young male students, sex with his male ‘subjects,’ brutal and bloody acts of ritualistic sexual self-torture, and sexual coercion of the staff wives….Kinsey used pedophiles to molest infants and children and submitted information regarding these crimes for inclusion in his books….He also collected information on homosexuality and bisexuality and offered this to his readers and students as ‘scientific data,’ although the majority of the data were merely the adulterous and homosexual acts between himself, his male colleagues, their wives and similar deviants.”
Well golly gee, doesn't that sound like an impartial scientific mind!

By the way, WND is totally affiliated with the research. Here's an article on her website.

Gee, on her own website, the headline says a WND exclusive. How quaint.

In this interview she specifically states that her doctorate is in "Communications Studies, focusing on mass media effects". Her credentials effectively relate to the work of a statistician. The beauty of statistics is that they can be manipulated if the collector has an agenda to do so. Considering her direct ties to WND, she does.

This is a woman who thinks kids "stopped smoking" because of John Wayne appearing on television. What a logical and diligent person she is, clearly in touch with the reality of the world.

This article reveals a lot of interesting things about Dr. Reisman. In particular, many of her yet-to-be-printed works are in fact going to be in print from World Net Daily Publishing. Don't believe me? Check amazon."

and such as:

"No, that source comes from Dr. Judith Reisman, who is not affiliated with NLGJA."

such as:

"This "research" is clearly biased. The best publication Baldwin could find acceptance from is a journal called Regent Law; a group whose aim is to promote the "Law of God" http://www.regent.edu/acad/schlaw/st...eview/home.cfm."

such as:

"Pedophilia takes advantage of those who are not old enough for 1) sexual contact, and 2) to legally consent. It is considered **** for a reason. Two consenting adults of the same gender would be an entirely different scenario.

Oh, not to mention pedophilia directly impacts another person. Two dudes bangin' in their bedroom? How does that impact you? I find it hilarious that you think you're so important that anything you don't like should be outlawed, regardless of the actual consequences of that "thing.""

Please respond to these points or forever cement yourself as a horrible debater homophobe.
 

El Nino

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I'm suggesting a link between pedophilia and homosexuality.
I think there's a link between pedophilia and heterosexuality too. There's also a link between **** and heterosexuality.

Is NYT a pedophile newspaper now?
Hide your kids, hide your wife.

However it becomes an interesting thought when you consider that the New York never(not that I've ever seen and I challenge anyone to cite me such an article within the past 5 years) feature anything even slightly anti-homosexual. From that information it's entirely reasonable to assume that they're complete pro homosexual.
Wait, so by not being anti-Justin Bieber, I am actually pro-Bieber? :urg:
 
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