Upick Pokémafia... Game over! 2% Milk wins!

[Circus]

Yeah, but you knew I was scum, and you were smart, and active. So you died.

But you didn't know I thought you were scum. I think I just said I was suspicious of Vocal and Inferno in thread (the latter of which was a lie, by the way. I figured either Ryu or Inferno was the cop).

Either way, I would have lynched Vocal. And even if we had managed to lynch you instead, I probably would have let Ryker walk to the finish line without any trouble. That Panta kill was too good. Like, it's literally the towniest thing anyone did all game.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Best thing from the QT

 

[Inferno3044]

Best thing from the QT

Other than being fully led by you what could I improve on and what did I do well?

MVP is Ryker. No contest.

 

[Asdioh]

10 town, 3 scum.
Earliest scum could have won was N3:
D1 ML, N1 kill, D2 ML + poison death, N2 kill, D3 ML, N3 kill.

Earliest town could have won was D2:
D1 scum lynch, N1 SUCKER PUNCH, D2 scum lynch. Chances of that happening are like 0.00001%.


Once you've fully read up on the roles and all, tell me what you think about the balance/creativity etc. My favorite role was the sucker puncher, and I liked my doctor variant as well, though I would modify it slightly next time. Of course, these two roles died before they could do anything. Then I like the Ghost Mason role, which of course also got killed quickly.



edit: Inferno, you did really well... D1. You seemed pretty townie to me, and you were doing stuff despite being new.
However, D2 and on, you literally seemed to just sit around and were like "hey guys, let's do stuff" and I was wondering why you never initiated anything yourself :/
Regardless, you played your Cop role pretty well, and Gheb protected you N1 so that's something.

 

[Asdioh]

Most Valuable Post: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13068937&postcount=52

No contest.

 

[Asdioh]

Skim milk is the best, fatties.

 

[Inferno3044]

Well it's good to know I did well on D1. I'm actually going to reread D1 now so I can see the things I did right. Also I honestly didn't know where to go or how to initiate anything.

 

[Asdioh]

I'm sure someone (Ryker) can give you some advice.

Also try reading the greenroom QT, it might help a little. I kind of ranted about how scummy Ryker was. The red flags should have gone off when he claimed a powerful role D2 unprompted, after the doctor died. That shows that he's not afraid of being NKed. Who doesn't get NKed? Mafia, because they can't NK themselves. ...usually.

I must admit WashedLaundry did a good job seeming townie. Most people had him as a strong townread.

idk about Panta, I don't remember if I thought he was scummy or townie looking, especially since I would be biased, since I knew roles.

edit: also Gheb, whenever he arrives, might give you some advice. He obviously had a townread on you.

 

[Circus]

MVP is Ryker. No contest.

The funny thing is, he probably would have been MVP if he had been town, too.

@Asdioh: The use of the town and scum roles is what makes scum so powerful though. Town's roles can backfire on them (Executioner) pretty well, and even some of the good ones are difficult to target properly (Cleric, Ghost Commander).

The Poisoning ability for scum alone feels close to broken for me, in this set-up. Ryker's shot on Panta isn't just an "I didn't expect scum to have the balls to do that" thing; it's an "I wouldn't expect scum to be able to do that" thing. I mean, in what universe would an observable vig kill not clear someone? Whether they shot scum or not? Ryker was right to think he would have bulletproof armor with that. He probably would have had it even if he had targeted a townie—the only deterrent I see for him doing that is the fact that he might hit a poison-immune one.

I'm not super salty about it. But I think you're overselling how useful most of town's abilities are actually capable of being in practice. Most of town's PRs didn't even get used, and there's a reason for that. The game could have gone a little differently if certain PRs had been able to make themselves useful, but hey. It happens.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm sure someone (Ryker) can give you some advice.

Also try reading the greenroom QT, it might help a little. I kind of ranted about how scummy Ryker was. The red flags should have gone off when he claimed a powerful role D2 unprompted, after the doctor died. That shows that he's not afraid of being NKed. Who doesn't get NKed? Mafia, because they can't NK themselves. ...usually.

I must admit WashedLaundry did a good job seeming townie. Most people had him as a strong townread.

idk about Panta, I don't remember if I thought he was scummy or townie looking, especially since I would be biased, since I knew roles.

Worst part was I wanted him lynched D2. D3 he had me convinced town because he bussed Panta with a night action.

 

[Asdioh]

Circus, I'll let other people talk about that first. I personally don't feel it's broken at all. Panta did a good job with his "you got lucky, Ryker" AtE.

I also don't think giving scum a semi-reliable, extra kill is all that powerful, when it's one of their two main strong points. Especially if it can be used on their partner, therefore making scum REQUIRE at least an extra Day phase to win.

Did NOBODY find it suspicious that he claimed the kill after the doctor died? And that he claimed neighbors with WL? And that neither of them were NKed? Yeah, it's WIFOM, but so is killing your scummate. Nobody even THOUGHT about it, practically. It was mind boggling

Kuzi was really good with his reads in the QT. I was upset when he accidentally learned the scumteam on skype, because I really wanted to see what his reaction to Ryker's gambit was.

 

[Inferno3044]

Also some of the reason I did so well was because of TSN kinda helped me get the feel of the game.

@Asidoh - As I said, I thought he was scum then and I wanted him lynched. But seeing that his NK was on scum, I fully believed he was town. A NK action on scum basically made me think he was town. What else was I to think? Especially since there wasn't another poisoning so I couldn't say he was SK.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I'll get to you tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Asdioh]

Also some of the reason I did so well was because of TSN kinda helped me get the feel of the game.

@Asidoh - As I said, I thought he was scum then and I wanted him lynched. But seeing that his NK was on scum, I fully believed he was town. A NK action on scum basically made me think he was town. What else was I to think? Especially since there wasn't another poisoning so I couldn't say he was SK.

I understand. I probably would have thought the same thing, and that's exactly why Ryker did it. It was a really risky move... one mistake and the game was over for scum. One investigation or lynch on either Ryker or Raziek would have resulted in a lynch which would flip mafia, and not Neighbor at all, which they claimed. However, I would have eventually gotten suspicious of Ryker for surviving that long after that claim, and for his overall fairly scummy play... and at the very least I would have considered that one of the neighbors was scum, and that it was most likely Raziek since Ryker killed a mafia member. Remember that Neighbors (scum team's clami) usually don't know each others alignments, but masons (Soup's potential role) usually do.

Also, one simple piece of advice that I can give you, that will essentially always hold true: you voted way too early in LyLo. Vocal still hadn't posted (if he ever would have) and Red Ruy hadn't even posted after any votes were cast. I wanted to see his thoughts after seeing all the claims.

When Ryker voted for Vocal, and there was no "alpha strike," it confirmed that Vocal and/or Ryker was scum. I can see how process of elimination would make people think Vocal was scum, but like you even said: one mislynch and it's over, there's no need to rush it.

 

[Inferno3044]

I understand. I probably would have thought the same thing, and that's exactly why Ryker did it. It was a really risky move... one mistake and the game was over for scum. One investigation or lynch on either Ryker or Raziek would have resulted in a lynch which would flip mafia, and not Neighbor at all, which they claimed. However, I would have eventually gotten suspicious of Ryker for surviving that long after that claim, and for his overall fairly scummy play... and at the very least I would have considered that one of the neighbors was scum, and that it was most likely Raziek since Ryker killed a mafia member. Remember that Neighbors (scum team's clami) usually don't know each others alignments, but masons (Soup's potential role) usually do.

Also, one simple piece of advice that I can give you, that will essentially always hold true: you voted way too early in LyLo. Vocal still hadn't posted (if he ever would have) and Red Ruy hadn't even posted after any votes were cast. I wanted to see his thoughts after seeing all the claims.

When Ryker voted for Vocal, and there was no "alpha strike," it confirmed that Vocal and/or Ryker was scum. I can see how process of elimination would make people think Vocal was scum, but like you even said: one mislynch and it's over, there's no need to rush it.

I guess but I didn't think of it. I still think the fact that the gambit worked was basically an auto-win for scum. I wish this game was faster though. So much inactivity killed some of it for me. Also I read the first 24 pages. I was ****ing good. I asked questions, got answers, and answered questions very well. Why the **** didn't I do that after D1?

 

[Asdioh]

idk lol.

And of course, I forgot to mention that the inactivity and all the replacements was AWFUL. I seriously had to babysit this game and hold it together. It's like people don't know that school starts in august/september or something.

And yeah, in your first mafia game, I wouldn't really expect you to think "this was all a gambit, ryker is scum." In fact, I would expect you to think he's confirmed town. I was hoping OTHER people *cough Circus RR cough* would at least throw out the possibility that it was a gambit.
Maybe it was a bad idea to let him do that.. but still, he didn't know what PRs you guys had. He had no idea if there was a tracker, or that the cop could only investigate every other night, or if there was a lie detector or... any other role that could have screwed him over.


Freaking.
Here are TWO REASONS why Ryker's role should have set off scum alarms, despite him killing scum with it:
-The "sucker puncher" role was a killing role. Do you (experienced players) think town would have two killing roles? Not to mention the town executioner...
-The Cleric role was CLEARLY designed to counter status effects, and poison is a status effect. ._.

;_;

I don't think it was imbalanced. I still maintain that if anything, town had more potential to be OP.

The day 1 lynch was terrible, forgot to mention that. It was literally "these two guys were inactive/V/LA, let's lynch them despite the fact that their roles sound pretty legitimate and powerful."
And then you killed my and Tom's favorite role from my setup >=(

 

[Circus]

Asdioh, like I said, I'm not super salty about it. The set-up is just swingy, and it swung very hard in scum's favor. I don't mind swing at all; I think it's fine. Ryker exploited his ability very well, and town did not play well at all. None of us. Where I take issue with what you're saying is mainly in the idea that town were overpowered (no way), and that certain things should have seemed fishy to us that we didn't catch. I think you've got mod-goggles on there.

It did occur to me that Ryker should be dead if he were town all this time, but there was always a pretty easy way to excuse it "scum wanted to kill the Cleric and Ryker's used up his shot," "There's still a cop in the game; scum wanted to try to hit the cop and Ryker's definitely not it."

And you say we should have suspected something was up when Zen flipped Cleric. Or when we noticed multiple "town" killing roles. Why? Zen's flip only means that there would likely be a mafioso with status ailment flavor, not that Ryker is that mafioso. Should we be wary of vig claims when we know a doctor or jailer is in the game? Of course not. And yes, according to the claims at face value, town would have had to have quite a few killing roles for a game this size. But that's still much less weird than the freaking mafia having a second killing ability, period. Like I said, I didn't entertain the thought of that being a gambit because not only is that a crazy gambit, it is also a gambit that I wouldn't even expect the scum to have the option of doing.

Plus, the Sucker Puncher is basically just a PGO, and the Executioner just made a lynch easier, so in terms of raw killing power, having one town vig in this set-up wouldn't have unbalanced the numbers much. Especially since, as I mentioned before, the Executioner's ability can be used against town, as would a hypothetical town vig. The fact of the matter is that the poison ability—though it could fail on certain players or be blocked by the Cleric—was a free, guiltless-looking kill for the mafia, separate from the normal NK. There's no getting around it. That's powerful, especially in a small game.

It was completely sensible to clear Ryker for what he did. I would have considered it sensible to clear Ryker even if he had killed a townie. I would just never expect scum to be given extra killing power like that. As far as I'm concerned, the only way we would have caught Ryker is if he got Cop'd, and our Cop was handicapped as it was. Like, I said, it's really just a matter of swing; town could have gotten lucky with the PRs and wrecked scum. That's just not what happened.

And of course it doesn't help when so many players are inactive or playing safe. It was so easy to just slap a scum label on Vocal and call it a Day. Oh, and let's not forget that the one modkill of the game was a townie. Technically, it was just the difference between mylo and lylo, but still. A revolving door of inactive townies along with a couple who basically just decided to stop playing wholesale made it difficult to get a strong bead on a lot of players, I feel. The only really strong read I had was my town one on Ryker, and that was entirely due to the gambit.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

2% milk wtf
Lol'd at the "indy pair"

Best thing from the QT

You know it brah

 

[Inferno3044]

Worst part is that I thought ryker was scum for the reasons you stated asidoh. I questioned the poison and the role claim and I was right. **** you town

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I didn't mind the set up and thought it was far imo.

I had a feeling I was protected from something, but yeah Ryker killing Panta thought it might have been a bus, but it required me to think if WL and Ryker were scum, I threw that out the window and woops.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Also part of my trust in mafia not having a second kill, but that was my fault for assuming.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Whenever I'm killed N1 u guys should just look at who my scumreads were D1 and lynch them first. Ryker was free, you guys are all just terrible at this game. With some people I feel as if they're learning the whole game anew from the scratch with each game they join. It's really annoying to watch people make the same mistakes over and over again -.-

Vote No MvP

Inferno, I thought you played fine for your first game here. It was kinda hard for to see it coming that you were being played. Somebody else with more experience should've done that - but once you gain more experience you will be the guy that can see through other people's plays. So just keep on playing the way u do and you'll be fine.

Ryker, u mad? Indy always wins the 2 vs 2 endgame against mafia. That's like saying town joints with mafia if they have a 2 vs 2 in the end. Think about it from the indie's point of view. You think they'd had a realistic chance if they can't endgame 2 scumbags?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah, I totally would've protected myself and made myself BP right off the bat. But I couldn't and Inferno was obvtown so I decided that I'd protect him - not BP him though since he kinda seemed like an unlikely target and I just wanted to make 100% sure he's around D2.

Circus, you're so good at making yourself look town but you definitely should work on your reads, mayne. U should get Skype/Aim and listen to how other people get their reads [but not Ryker and Swiss ]

 

[DtJ S2n]

Man like. SilphCo and Gheb could have been megatownbros and run through scum there and then soup cried his eyes out about he could maybe possibly be a cool guy one day, when I had already proven that I was in fact the coolest guy. SilphCo might need to ride again one day. We have the power.

Also lol at scum in both the uPicks winning by using their own power on themselves.

also good **** to laundry for making me look stupid this game. Pay back for me being scum in every game I've buddied you prior to this, I guess.

 

[Asdioh]

Yeah, I totally would've protected myself and made myself BP right off the bat. But I couldn't and Inferno was obvtown so I decided that I'd protect him - not BP him though since he kinda seemed like an unlikely target and I just wanted to make 100% sure he's around D2.

I think you misread. If I could change anything about your role, it would be:
-regular doctor ability
-makes someone (one shot) BP if you doc them twice in a row, but then you lose your doc ability, or..
-doc yourself, but it's one-shot and then you lose the ability to make people BP, but retain the ability to regular doc.

Basically a doc with a bunch of options that have both benefits and drawbacks.

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

This game was just a total fail for me. Didn't suspect anything -_- Asdioh told me who the scum team were and I went back and skimmed through and kind of facepalmed at everything that I missed because of other reads. I also facepalmed at how we were the ghost type. I didn't realize we had to send in two roles and J sent in the other one (a ghost type) so that potential went away pretty quickly.

 

[Asdioh]

Luxray is going to be our first choice

our second choice since you said to have multiple would be Frosslass.

Thank you so much Asdioh!

I guess by "our" he meant "my?"

 

[Inferno3044]

@gheb- I now feel smart for thinking ryker was scum until D3. **** the rest of town for not believing me. Also thanks for saying I was good. Im gonna try a 2nd game. Other than ryker playing us for saps nobody did anything stupid enough to make me wanna quit.

@sold- I wanted to lynch soup D1 honestly because I thought he was lying. I was cop so I didn't fully believe it.

Also I didn't realize that soup and sang would've made a masonry if found. If I knew that I would've been able to find out that they were lying.

 

[Panta]

Circus, I'll let other people talk about that first. I personally don't feel it's broken at all. Panta did a good job with his "you got lucky, Ryker" AtE.

I also don't think giving scum a semi-reliable, extra kill is all that powerful, when it's one of their two main strong points. Especially if it can be used on their partner, therefore making scum REQUIRE at least an extra Day phase to win.

Did NOBODY find it suspicious that he claimed the kill after the doctor died? And that he claimed neighbors with WL? And that neither of them were NKed? Yeah, it's WIFOM, but so is killing your scummate. Nobody even THOUGHT about it, practically. It was mind boggling

Kuzi was really good with his reads in the QT. I was upset when he accidentally learned the scumteam on skype, because I really wanted to see what his reaction to Ryker's gambit was.

YAY I DID SOMETHING GOOD FOR ONCE.

I take it the scum won? Ya. Once I died and you were all like lol Ryker is obv town I was very happy.

 

[Panta]

Also, my claim in Final Fantasy that I didn't know scum got the ability to daytalk was because Ryker and WL decided to not use the QT and use Skype instead... which I don't have. So I never got to talk to my scum buddies really. >_>

 

[Panta]

By the way, my role has an ability that doesn't let it die from poison normally.

I will never trust Ryker again lol. He likes to go balls to the walls with gambits.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Eh, everything I do, I do for a reason. Just because I do something crazy doesn't mean I'm scum.

Town REALLY shot itself in the foot. I wasn't forced to do anything in this set-up. I could've easily stepped in and run the town like no one did prior to Circus replacing in, but there was absolutely no reason to when I could choke it out with inactivity.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok, WHAT. THE. F***?!

 

[Asdioh]

Also I didn't realize that soup and sang would've made a masonry if found. If I knew that I would've been able to find out that they were lying.

That's because Soup lied about his role.

...for some reason. You guys were suspicious of him because he carelessly kept changing his story. Like, he said he gets to target someone once per day and night, and on D2 he said "i targeted 3-4 people" (or something to that effect) when, as somebody pointed out, the most he could have targeted was 3, and then he was like "oh yeah 3"
It was just needlessly contradictory, and nobody trusted him because of that.

By the way, my role has an ability that doesn't let it die from poison normally.

I will never trust Ryker again lol. He likes to go balls to the walls with gambits.

You actually weren't, lol. I gave you the safeclaim "poison immune townie" because Reuniclus normally has Magic Guard, which protects from damage from poison, burn, etc. I just didn't expect you to actually get poisoned by your partner.

Ok, WHAT. THE. F***?!

\(o_o)/??

 

[SangfroidWarrior]

I guess by "our" he meant "my?"

Not really. We had chosen between luxray and frosslass but I wasn't aware (or just blocked it out) that we had to send in 2.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Had a rant, then realized it was a joke.

lrn2post a clear victory screen after your fake one.


This rant is better placed in gheb's game.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Indy pair always win over mafia pair I don't see why this has come as a shock to so many people. Not only do the mafia have more in numbers, they each have PRs and a factional NK. In a 2v2 situation, jointing would be absolutely ********.

 

[Asdioh]

Indy pair always win over mafia pair I don't see why this has come as a shock to so many people. Not only do the mafia have more in numbers, they each have PRs and a factional NK. In a 2v2 situation, jointing would be absolutely ********.

doth quoth for trutheth.

*edits the victory post, gosh*


here you go: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13324555&postcount=1381

 

[adumbrodeus]

Indy pair always win over mafia pair I don't see why this has come as a shock to so many people. Not only do the mafia have more in numbers, they each have PRs and a factional NK. In a 2v2 situation, jointing would be absolutely ********.

Not if they have no way to win if NAs and lynches are accelerated based on the understanding that no member of an informed minority will lynch one of their members if none of their members can be killed without them voting to lynch.


SK outprioritizing mafia? Fine (assuming that's your resolution system).

A multiple person faction with no way to nk and not everyone is bp winning against an even number of mafia? No.

BP siblings tying with 2 mafia? Cool.


Endgame should be calculable based on the roles, it shouldn't be "mod decides who wins in a manner that can't be predicted by the players".

 

[Asdioh]

I guess it depends on the indy's wincon. If it's "you win when you equal or outnumber the remaining players, regardless of faction" then yeah. So indy siblings would win if there are only 2 other players left.

Then again, I'd be pretty mad if I was in the 2 mafia group and lost to unexpected indies >_> so I see your point...