Upick Pokémafia... Game over! 2% Milk wins!

[adumbrodeus]

I guess it depends on the indy's wincon. If it's "you win when you equal or outnumber the remaining players, regardless of faction" then yeah. So indy siblings would win if there are only 2 other players left.

Then again, I'd be pretty mad if I was in the 2 mafia group and lost to unexpected indies >_> so I see your point...

The wincon is only supposed to accelerate the inevitable. Not apply victory in a situation that is effectively a stalemate or a loss.

 

[Asdioh]

that's why i didn't include indies in my first game :3

 

[adumbrodeus]

As an example of what I was talking about, 2 mafia should not be able to endgame [random townie role here] and a busdriver. Why? Because mafia needs to read the townie to figure out who he's gonna busdrive. Even with a roleblocker, depending on the resolution, the driving should happen first (for example, natural action resolution dictates that if the night actions form any sort of loop, busing happens first).

This is especially true in 1 mafia vs 1 bus driver where there's a 50% chance that mafia will kill themselves if they night kill. In that case I personally would go for a happily ever after ending as mafia.

that's why i didn't include indies in my first game :3

Good choice.

 

[Asdioh]

I thought townies always lost if it's 2 town vs 2 mafia...

Very well then, answer me this, because this was brought up by I think Gova when I told him a bit about the setup.

Look at this role: [collapse=Town Sucker Puncher]Hello, Sold2/Glyph, and welcome to Upick Pokemafia!

You are Bisharp, Town Sucker Puncher!

Just look at you. You are a bad dude. People think they can mess with you? I wouldn't suggest it. You are sharp and pointy. You want the town to beat the bad guys, but you certainly aren't afraid of murderers lurking in the night.

Passive Abilities: None.

Active Abilities: Sucker Punch- If you are targeted for a Night Kill, you will be informed via PM. You can respond with the name of the player you think is trying to kill you. If you are correct, you will kill them instead. If you are incorrect, or do not respond, you will die. This ability is one-shot.
Note: I suggest you think about your target beforehand, so you can make a decision quickly if you happen to be informed that you were targeted for a night kill.

Suggested Posting Restriction: In the first post of the game, you (particularly Glyph) should go into GREAT DETAIL about how AMAZINGLY HAPPY you are to have gotten town, and how much getting scum sucks. This is an inside joke from Bingo I planned on putting in your role PM, regardless of what your alignment ended up being.

Win Condition: You are town aligned, and win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

Please confirm via PM![/collapse]And imagine that it was 2 town vs 1 mafia, and they lynch a townie, which just left mafia (whatever role, just say Goon) and the Sucker Puncher role.

I would have counted that as a win for mafia, but you're saying that town could have won, since his role outprioritizes and kills the person that tries to NK him?

 

[th3kuzinator]

Not if they have no way to win if NAs and lynches are accelerated based on the understanding that no member of an informed minority will lynch one of their members if none of their members can be killed without them voting to lynch.


SK outprioritizing mafia? Fine (assuming that's your resolution system).

A multiple person faction with no way to nk and not everyone is bp winning against an even number of mafia? No.

BP siblings tying with 2 mafia? Cool.

Endgame should be calculable based on the roles, it shouldn't be "mod decides who wins in a manner that can't be predicted by the players".

I have no idea what you're saying.

A two person faction with less numbers and no factional nk that can be lynched, nkd, executed (mafia had an executioner) and dayvigged (town had a dayvig) certainly deserve endgame priority over mafia in a 2v2 scenario. Tell me why this is wrong.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I thought townies always lost if it's 2 town vs 2 mafia...

Very well then, answer me this, because this was brought up by I think Gova when I told him a bit about the setup.

Look at this role: [collapse=Town Sucker Puncher]Hello, Sold2/Glyph, and welcome to Upick Pokemafia!

You are Bisharp, Town Sucker Puncher!

Just look at you. You are a bad dude. People think they can mess with you? I wouldn't suggest it. You are sharp and pointy. You want the town to beat the bad guys, but you certainly aren't afraid of murderers lurking in the night.

Passive Abilities: None.

Active Abilities: Sucker Punch- If you are targeted for a Night Kill, you will be informed via PM. You can respond with the name of the player you think is trying to kill you. If you are correct, you will kill them instead. If you are incorrect, or do not respond, you will die. This ability is one-shot.
Note: I suggest you think about your target beforehand, so you can make a decision quickly if you happen to be informed that you were targeted for a night kill.

Suggested Posting Restriction: In the first post of the game, you (particularly Glyph) should go into GREAT DETAIL about how AMAZINGLY HAPPY you are to have gotten town, and how much getting scum sucks. This is an inside joke from Bingo I planned on putting in your role PM, regardless of what your alignment ended up being.

Win Condition: You are town aligned, and win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

Please confirm via PM![/collapse]And imagine that it was 2 town vs 1 mafia, and they lynch a townie, which just left mafia (whatever role, just say Goon) and the Sucker Puncher role.

I would have counted that as a win for mafia, but you're saying that town could have won, since his role outprioritizes and kills the person that tries to NK him?

Yep, that role is definitely a threat to mafia because it could change the results of night actions, meaning simply accelerating day and night phases wouldn't result in a clear victor. In cases where mafia will still have the majority even if some of their members can still die, it's irrelevant.


Take for example, 2 mafia vs a vt and a vig using the most common resolution on the site (mafia kills happen before vig).

Mafia will always win, sure if they pick the other guy, one mafia will die, but because vig and mafia shooting each other will result in a mafia win, there's no possible change in outcome. In this case, the mafia SHOULD endgame the townies.



On the other hand, in natural actions resolution, the same setup can result in a scorched earth endgame, if mafia kills the vt first, and then the vig and mafia shoot each other then it's a draw. This is possible but less likely with a roleblocker as well (rb has to guess wrong and vig has to kill the rb the first night of this situation). In this case you should not endgame.

I have no idea what you're saying.

A two person faction with less numbers and no factional nk that can be lynched, nkd, executed (mafia had an executioner) and dayvigged (town had a dayvig) certainly deserve endgame priority over mafia in a 2v2 scenario. Tell me why this is wrong.

The endgaming rules should be a natural result of the powers of the roles involved. It should be predictable if you know the roles involved.


This scenario is using endgaming as a band-aid for poor balance, and that is flat-out wrong. If the mod wants siblings to win against 2 mafia in the endgame THEN THE MOD SHOULD DAMN WELL GIVE THEM A POWER THAT ALLOWS THEM TO WIN AGAINST 2 MAFIA IN THE ENDGAME

 

[th3kuzinator]

This scenario is using endgaming as a band-aid for poor balance, and that is flat-out wrong. If the mod wants siblings to win against 2 mafia in the endgame THEN THE MOD SHOULD DAMN WELL GIVE THEM A POWER THAT ALLOWS THEM TO WIN AGAINST 2 MAFIA IN THE ENDGAME

So basically what you're saying is, if Gheb had given us the power, "Passive Ability - Dual Destruction: you win in a 2v2 against any other faction" instead of just telling us in our wincon that

You are Independently aligned. You win if you and Zorn are the only remaining players or nothing can prevent this. In an Endgame scenario your faction has the highest priority - a 2vs2 situation will end with you as the winners of the game. If Zorn dies, you die as well.

everything would have been fine?

 

[Asdioh]

So basically what you're saying is, if Gheb had given us the power, "Passive Ability - Dual Destruction: you win in a 2v2 against any other faction" instead of just telling us in our wincon that



everything would have been fine?

 

[adumbrodeus]

So basically what you're saying is, if Gheb had given us the power, "Passive Ability - Dual Destruction: you win in a 2v2 against any other faction" instead of just telling us in our wincon that



everything would have been fine?

Nope. That's the same thing. I'm talking about things like a 1 shot nightkill/daykill.

 

[th3kuzinator]

You mean a one shot night kill or daykill that only happens in an endgame scenario or something the indies can use at any time?

 

[th3kuzinator]

^ Adumb I want that question answered.

 

[adumbrodeus]

^ Adumb I want that question answered.

Nope. That they can use at any time. That way they could chose what was most advantageous and not using it at a seemingly crucial time would actually be a gambit to make it look like they didn't have other powers. Or they could use it and lose the ability to endgame scum.

Giving options is better an more interesting then a wincon.


Now, I don't know if it would necessarily work in that game, but they're one of a number of possibilities. Also, general mafia discussion for the rest of this? Cause it certainly isn't ontopic for this game anymore.

 

[th3kuzinator]

wrong thread

 

[giraffelasergun]

crap

I was hoping other would win. chocolate milk2gud.

 

[Asdioh]

so which role PM picture was the best?

Spoiler

 

[DtJ S2n]

I liked the Celebi the best.

Also I really have no problem with giving indies a win condition causing them to win in endgame vs equal number of mafia. If that's what the mod wants. I remember when I made an indy once it was a sort of poisoner variant, except I wanted it to win in an endgame situation vs mafia or town, so I gave it some RIDICULOUS formula that would dictate when it's poison would take effect.

And then I realized how stupid that is.