Up B find...potentially useful move. Uses and strategies. **UPDATE #6**

[Iwan]

Playing some earlier (friendlies at virginia tech)...we began messing around for a match or two, and while doing this, i couldn't help but notice that one of falcon's moves (that i had barely ever used), is one of his most valuable.

His up b. Now, i never implemented this into my game before today, but after i realized how amazing it's priority was (yes...a move the captain has with priority), i started using it fairly often.

The uses i found for it include edge guarding (go off stage and throw out an aerial to force them to air dodge, and after your opponent's air dodge animation is done, immediately use falcon's up b back towards the stage. You could stage spike, and if not, you'll make it back to the stage safely. It works). Also, this move out prioritizes many, many moves...while giving you a completely stupid amount of DI out of it. You can literally move from the edge of FD to almost PAST the middle of the stage DI'ing out of this move. And that makes this move fairly safe to use in a few situations.

This move can be used in any direction you point it at, and it out prioritzed at least every aerial DK has, was far too quick for Rob to spike/nuetral air me, and ended up replacing my shield grab at certain points through out a match.

Note, we were messing around at first, but later on got back to serious matches, and the move was honestly a valuable asset.

I'll update this thread regularly as more is uncovered and i test out this move. Someone at least throw this move into your game, for at least a match or two, and let me know how you end up doing...because i know this move is almost never used outside of recovery, and it should be.

It definitely, definitely should be.

**UPDATE ONE: SHIELD CANCELED UP B**---Keykid was messing around in training mode, and confirmed that this move can also be shield canceled. The move can be used for dash-->shield--> Up B. HOWEVER, THIS ONLY WORKS WITH TAP JUMP ON. Non tap jumpers cannot shield cancel with this move.

**UPDATE TWO: LEDGE HOPPED UP B**---This move can also be ledge hopped! The advantage to using this as a ledge hopped move is that even if the opponent is blocking, they still get hit. The reach this has is very impressive as well. To be more specific, there are two stripes at the edges of Final Destination...with light blue in the middle of the stripes. This ledge hopped Up B can reach as far AND EVEN FARTHER than the middle of these two stripes (where the light blue is). It can reach even farther because this move's hit box is fairly big. However, this is harder to perform because you have to land first, and then immediately use up B, as opposed to straight up ledge hopping it. And by the time you do that, your opponent could spot dodge or react to avoid it. But again, i'll rephrase, THIS MOVE CAN BE LEDGE HOPPED. Props to Keykid once again.

****More things thrown in by Keykid on Ledge hopped up B:

Here are a couple notes about the ledgehopped UpB that need to be put out there:

1. You don't HAVE to double jump before using the UpB like you do when ledgehopping Uair and Fair. UpB will still work. If you double jump you get more range though.

2. Be CAREFUL at Final Destination to not get caught under the stage when attempting the No Double Jump (NDJ) UpB Ledgehop. If you DI towards the stage too quickly, you will get caught under the edge and will most of the time die (although if you catch yourself quickly enough it is possible to DI back to the edge but the success rate of this is very low). Don't gimp yourself. You can very easily just do the double jump like on the other ledgehops and save yourself any worries about gimping yourself.

3. Since this move has Super Armor, you can break through any standing edgeguard. Yesterday BananaTrooper and I were trying out holding Falcon's AAA combo as a standing edgeguard, and the only ledgehop (of Falcon's) that could break it was when he did UpB. He didn't truly ledgehop it if memory serves though, but more of a drop, double jump away from the stage, UpB. So yeah if you want to punish people spamming moves at the edge just ledgehop them with UpB instead of getting hit trying to do Uair or Fair. This strategy might not work in all situations and timings though because I haven't tested it. But I know it SHOULD work. lol If anyone wants to mess around with it while I'm off doing chores today feel free to.

---Thank you Key!!

** UPDATE THREE: DASH CANCELED UP B**---I totally forgot to mention this in my original post, but this move can also be dash canceled, which means it can also replace Falcon's dash grab. This could be useful at high percents to ensure a KO.

**UPDATE FOUR: GRAB PRIORITY**---Initially thought to be super armor, but further testing has proven that to be false. During the last few frames of Falcon's Up B (when he grabs), the move has grab priority on it...taking the damage but absorbing the knockback. I up B'd through DK's fully charged punch, took the damage, but continued through the move and landed with the grab from my UP b. Again...Falcon's up B has grab priority.

**UPDATE FIVE: PLATFORM ADVANTAGES---In levels with platforms, if your opponent is above you, you can up B through the platform and you're set; it hits them everytime (unless spot dodged). Once again, it can't be blocked, so unless they spot dodge the Up B is going to hit. Keykid tried this out specifically on Norfair, BF, and even pirate ship. It's possible to hit with Falcon's up b even if your opponent is at the top platform on pirate ship.

**UPDATE SIX: Keykid's recent take and testing, and Y34HDUD3's testing**

Keykid:

Ok so after playing like 4 or 5 matches against the same ZSS that is in the video I posted of myself in the Falcon Video Thread, I came to the conclusion that UpB definitely has use. For example:

Zamus' Dair is just asking for an UpB. I got a nice 17% everytime the Zamus tried Dair-ing me.

Shield-canceled UpB is great when you are shielding and your opponent is attacking your shield. No matter how short the lag after they attack, you will be able to get an UpB in. It is more useful than a grab because its grab range is MUCH further than Falcon's terrible shield grab range. It also does more damage. It is more useful than any of his tilts because you have no chance of getting your attack broken because it will outprioritize any attack. It also does slightly more damage than any of the tilts. The same reasoning applies to why it's more useful than the AAA combo as well. I see no reason why UpB shouldn't be used as a shield-canceled move. I know that you CAN miss, but it's not likely if you have any enemy anticipation skills at all.

UpB is a good ledgehop depending on the situation. Like I've said before it outprioritizes essentially everything so you don't have to worry about getting hit like you do with Fair and Uair. It also has the ability reach beyond the range of those other two ledgehopped moves.

Dash-canceled UpB is useful if you are chasing after hitting your opponent up. If you don't "mindgame" them correctly and DO get airdodged, oh well because you can DI and FF far enough away from where your opponent lands that they won't be able to land and then dash over to you before your lag is over. Maybe Sonic could but I haven't tested this on Sonic so I don't know. lol While UpB has more priority than Running A, it's harder to connect with, so if your opponent is on the ground I don't think UpB is that great of an option. Still useful depending on the situation I think though.

Which dairs do and don't outprioritze Falcon's Up B:

Keykid's testing:

Toon Link Dair: Yes but only from certain angles. If he is directly above you and you do it you'll get hit. But if he's the slightest bit in front of you, you'll get it. I guess this makes sense since the UpB hitbox is essentially Falcon's face, not the top of his head (if that makes sense to anybody but me lol).

Metaknight: Essentially same story here. I've gotten it to work but like Toon Link's it only works if Meta is a smidge in front of you as you approach. If you're off you're going to get hit.

Ike: Breaks through Aether's drop. Dair as well from certain angle of appraoch (the sides). Same story as the others.

Game and Watch: I can't seem to get a grab on it unless I would otherwise not get hit by it. lol Maybe that's true with my other tests and I didn't notice? So yeah possible error there. If someone else has a better way to test than one person manning two controllers poorly while trying to make observations at the same time then please do so. lol

One note about all of these: UpB's priority SEEMS to strengthen as the move progress through its duration. If I've just started the jump portion (not the crouching-ish startup portion but actually the first little bit of upward movement) I get get hit by all three of the aforementioned Dairs. But if I start my UpB a little earlier and thereby get more UpB duration BEFORE I reach the Dair, I outprioritize them. Also, sometimes I take damage when I outprioritize and sometimes I don't. This makes me think that MAYBE the middle priority takes damage and MAYBE the highest priority of the UpB doesn't. That's just a guess though. It could just be differences in my approach angle. lol

More testing is needed!

Y43HDUD3's testing:

It goes through Olimar's dair. (You still get damage) Hurray!!!

It doesn't go through Dedede's dair, but if you grab him from the sides then there's no problem.

Goes through Ganondorf's.

Goes through Sheik's, go for Zelda's sides or you'll get hit.

Go for Link's sides.

Goes through the front of Pit's dair attack. (the part of the attack facing you) (You still get damage)

Go for Lucario's sides. (You still get a bit of damage from the first blast)

The Ice Climbers are special. You will damage the one you grab a little bit but the other one will hit you and won't let you finish the attack. Isn't favorable, IMO.

 

[KeyKid19]

That sounds really awesome. And it's not like people will be able to counter it like other tactics since they will either have to take the hit with the aerial or dodge and take the UpB. This sounds like it has a LOT of potential. The YES! combo was the first great use of UpB, and now this takes it a huge step forward. GREAT find.

The super armor thing makes sense because since UpB is a grab, it should behave like a regular grab (which has super armor as well).

 

[Tenki]

Just an idea, but here are some questions about how people are playing Falcon. Maybe you'll realize something as you answer these, or maybe you'll find similarities with other Falcon players. Maybe you'll see what's working and what's not working.

._.; who knows, maybe there are adjustments to be made in his current gameplay that need to be changed, like how many Ganondorf players were spamming F-airs when Brawl first came out. People were trying to play him using his weaknesses as their main moves instead of looking toward the newer features and finding a new strength there.

...

2) Special attack usage: Do you incorporate them often in your game? Are there any moves you tend to not use often in normal play ?
(eg, do you use up-B outside of just recovery? Falcon Punch?)

I knew I was onto something! xD

loljk, congratulations on your find.
I think watching Falcon videos from now on would be more fun if he was screaming YES! throughout the video.

-----

Just wondering, does Falcon still have that sort of... 'teleport'/insta-cling effect when he uses up-B? Is the range smaller in Brawl?

 

[Iwan]

I knew I was onto something! xD

loljk, congratulations on your find.
I think watching Falcon videos from now on would be more fun if he was screaming YES! throughout the video.

-----

Just wondering, does Falcon still have that sort of... 'teleport'/insta-cling effect when he uses up-B? Is the range smaller in Brawl?

YOUR POST IS WHAT INSPIRED ME TO TRY OUT THIS MOVE.....

THANKYOU.

and yes...if an opponent enters the hit box they automatically get caught in the move.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

The range and priority on this attack is the reason why my YES! combo actually works.

However, keep in mind that if your opponent dodges you when you do Falcon Dive, it leaves you VERY open.

 

[Iwan]

The range and priority on this attack is the reason why my YES! combo actually works.

However, keep in mind that if your opponent dodges you when you do Falcon Dive, it leaves you VERY open.

That's why you'd throw in an aerial first. Note that you can't really just up b right under someone. Sure...you COULD, if you knew they weren't going to airdodge, but throw in an aerial first. That way, they dodge that, and then leave themselves very, VERY OPEN to be hit with the up b. It's pretty fool proof really. Either they eat the Up air or they eat the up b. If someone has even DECENT mindgames, they can pull this off consistently without problems.

Also, the amount of DI this move has out of it is dramatically more than the amount of DI you get out of ANY other move. You can usually escape from your opponent by DI'ing away from them if you miss (which shouldn't happen often if you use it right).

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

What I find especially wonderful is that Falcon's up B does a whopping 17% in this game.

 

[Tenki]

**UPDATE FOUR: SUPER ARMOR**---I mentioned this in my original post but didn't specify. During the last few frames of Falcon's Up B, the move has super armor on it...taking the damage but absorbing the knockback, just like DK's punch, Ike's Aether, and Olimar's Whistle. I up B'd through DK's fully charged punch, took the damage, but continued through the move and hit him with my UP b. Again...Falcon's up B has super armor in the last few frames.

You mean your grab connected?

That could just mean that you did grab-priority on a hit, which happens with Ganonodorf's side-b (and any normal grab). You can take damage, but as long as you grab the guy doing it to you, you won't get knocked back.

 

[Iwan]

You mean your grab connected?

That could just mean that you did grab-priority on a hit, which happens with Ganonodorf's side-b (and any normal grab). You can take damage, but as long as you grab the guy doing it to you, you won't get knocked back.

Im fairly certain it was super armor...the same white, kind of "blinking" aura surrounded Falcon as i was hit. Exactly like what happens with Olimar, DK, and Ike. Super Armor aura i believe it's called?

**EDIT**--Nessbounder's post below me...thankyou .

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I just tested. This move out-prioritizes a fully charged Marth Fsmash (as in grab super-armor style) well outside Falcon's grab range. Do we really need to do any more testing?

 

[Tenki]

Im fairly certain it was super armor...the same white, kind of "blinking" aura surrounded Falcon as i was hit. Exactly like what happens with Olimar, DK, and Ike. Super Armor aura i believe it's called?

well, I think the actual color doesn't matter (...i think?), but it's super armor if any of these two work:
-Up-B misses/doesn't connect, you get hit during the suspected flash, but you don't go flying
-Up-B connects with person A, person B hits you, and you don't go flying while you're grabbing Person A.

The second case is Ganondorf's Super Armor case- he's got it while he's lifting someone into the air with his Flame Choke.

 

[Iwan]

well, I think the actual color doesn't matter (...i think?), but it's super armor if any of these two work:
-Up-B misses/doesn't connect, you get hit during the suspected flash, but you don't go flying
-Up-B connects with person A, person B hits you, and you don't go flying while you're grabbing Person A.

The second case is Ganondorf's Super Armor case- he's got it while he's lifting someone into the air with his Flame Choke.

Ill test it out tomorrow for sure (just informed tech's tournament isn't happening anymore due to finals). I'll test out A LOT of things tomorrow. lol.

Also...ANYONE's input from messing around or experimenting with this is very, very welcome. Share what you find about falcon's up b!!

Thanks .

 

[Elemental Knight]

The up+B was part of my bread and butter in Smash 64, and I'm glad to see that it's returning to glory.

 

[Sh1n0b1]

Finally a move with falcon that has nice priority. I've always thought of Falcon's up B as just an easy edgeguardable recovery. Now it seems to have more of a use!

 

[KeyKid19]

Here are a couple notes about the ledgehopped UpB that need to be put out there:

1. You don't HAVE to double jump before using the UpB like you do when ledgehopping Uair and Fair. UpB will still work. If you double jump you get more range though.

2. Be CAREFUL at Final Destination to not get caught under the stage when attempting the No Double Jump (NDJ) UpB Ledgehop. If you DI towards the stage too quickly, you will get caught under the edge and will most of the time die (although if you catch yourself quickly enough it is possible to DI back to the edge but the success rate of this is very low). Don't gimp yourself. You can very easily just do the double jump like on the other ledgehops and save yourself any worries about gimping yourself.

3. Since this move has Super Armor, you can break through any standing edgeguard. Yesterday BananaTrooper and I were trying out holding Falcon's AAA combo as a standing edgeguard, and the only ledgehop (of Falcon's) that could break it was when he did UpB. He didn't truly ledgehop it if memory serves though, but more of a drop, double jump away from the stage, UpB. So yeah if you want to punish people spamming moves at the edge just ledgehop them with UpB instead of getting hit trying to do Uair or Fair. This strategy might not work in all situations and timings though because I haven't tested it. But I know it SHOULD work. lol If anyone wants to mess around with it while I'm off doing chores today feel free to.

 

[Medic]

It's also a very nice move that comboes into itself. If you're quick, you can land three or four of these on an unsuspecting enemy. It messes with their heads and leaves them with a lot more damage.
Also, when an enemy is just barely on the screen, like when you Fsmash them and they're recovering, you can send them offscreen (and dead) with an UpB, if you're careful.
That said, When the opponent is on the edge or under the edge, a well-executed UpB is a wonderful wonderful gimp.
UpB is a wonderful special that helps Captain Falcon get around all his weaknesses. It's not infinitely good, of course, but it's a solid move that is a very useful addition to Falcon's armory.

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

Heh. With all these discoveries you guys made lately I think that Falcon might have jumped a tier. :D

 

[Iwan]

It's also a very nice move that comboes into itself. If you're quick, you can land three or four of these on an unsuspecting enemy. It messes with their heads and leaves them with a lot more damage.
Also, when an enemy is just barely on the screen, like when you Fsmash them and they're recovering, you can send them offscreen (and dead) with an UpB, if you're careful.
That said, When the opponent is on the edge or under the edge, a well-executed UpB is a wonderful wonderful gimp.
UpB is a wonderful special that helps Captain Falcon get around all his weaknesses. It's not infinitely good, of course, but it's a solid move that is a very useful addition to Falcon's armory.

Yea...i've been playing a lot today, and sometimes it can get you some very nice combos, and other times it can be punishable. It really depends on when you use it...early on today i was borderline spamming it (using it way too much lol), just to see what i could and couldn't do with it. And i was pretty much getting *****. But recently i just threw it in when I KNEW it would hit...and i was much more successful. In the early going i was straying too far away from the way i normally play, and it hurt me.

If you've been using Falcon for a while now and have a good game around him, don't change it drastically, or "revolve" it around up b. But just add it to your list of used moves.

It's a very useful move that should just be thrown into a falcon player's game. It does have all of these attributes in my original post, but from playing today, i found out it's not something to build falcon's game around; merely something that should be used more often that is currently is.

Just throw it into your game a little.

 

[Medic]

Yea...i've been playing a lot today, and sometimes it can get you some very nice combos, and other times it can be punishable. It really depends on when you use it...early on today i was borderline spamming it (using it way too much lol), just to see what i could and couldn't do with it. And i was pretty much getting *****. But recently i just threw it in when I KNEW it would hit...and i was much more successful. In the early going i was straying too far away from the way i normally play, and it hurt me.

If you've been using Falcon for a while now and have a good game around him, don't change it drastically, or "revolve" it around up b. But just add it to your list of used moves.

It's a very useful move that should just be thrown into a falcon player's game. It does have all of these attributes in my original post, but from playing today, i found out it's not something to build falcon's game around; merely something that should be used more often that is currently is.

Just throw it into your game a little.

Right. The UpB move is good, but it's not a game by itself. It can change flow, like Wolf's Shine, but it's not a game-strategy.
I am a ground-first Falcon. I do have a good Air Falcon, but I was a Bad Melee player, and so my Falcon started off as a groundie. That actually ended up being to my benefit, as I can now do a lot of ground pressure which leads into fatal air pressure.
It's a good head-mess-up, and it is a solid recovery, as well as a good gimper.

 

[BananaTrooper]

We played a few games today, and came to the conclusion that the up B is far from safe. In fact, I would almost never use this move, other than for recovery. (this is all me, perhaps Iwan still sees something in this move I'm missing)

-The up b isn't fast. There's startup lag, not to mention the **** thing leaves you vulnerable for an heck of a long time if you miss. And, in all likeliness, you will miss.

- There are 4 versions of this up b (I don't think I'm missing anything, if I am please post)

a) you start it on the ground, with your opponent on the ground as well. I find this nearly useless, as you should not be able to land it. It telegraphs itself horridly, and is easy to spot dodge. There are better alternatives: grabbing, jabs, maybe even utilt to variate timing. At low percents, even if the dive lands, your opponent can aerial you back, due to the terrible lag afterwards (you won't be able to attack until rebound to your max height, do a little flip, then fall; too much lag). Utilt comes out about the same speed as the dive, has more knockback, and almost no lag afterwards. Grabbing, pummeling, dthrow followed by (maybe) uair/ nair/grab are all better alternatives IMO.

This is assuming the dive lands, of course. I know you all know what happens if the dive misses, which again is more than likely. There is a split frame for your opponent to get caught in the dive; once they dodge that, falcon will pass his opponent and continue on his merry way into the sky, and leave himself to god-knows-what. Rolling and spot-dodging both work, and the timing doesn't have to be precise to dodge it, either. As for the DI after the move, I haven't noticed any increased DI from a regular jump.

b) your opponent is in the air, and you dive up the meet them. Again, I would advise against this move. I find the uair to work far better than anything else; far less lag, both startup and ending, and if it is spaced properly, can send opponents flying off and a completely horizontal trajectory. The dive sends opponents forward and upwards, which isn't the best place to send them if it's a KO you want. It's also rather difficult to aim. The dive will kill an Ike standing on the middle platform of battlefield @ 167%; the uair will kill at 155%. Uair also has more range. I suppose the dive may be used to punish a sloppy airdodge when the % isn't quite enough to KO, but again, this seems hihgly situational. Lag is what kill this move; you are utterly vulnerable if you miss, and are liable to eat just about anything your opponent cares to punish you with.

c) you are beneath your opponent on a platform. This will depend on the platform height. On battlefield, using the dive on the 2 side platforms is silly. Utilt will hit, usmash will hit, uair will hit, nairs will hit, heck even knees can land here. All of these alternatives will leave falcon beneath your opponent, which is the best place for him. However, for platforms similar in height to the middle platform, perhaps the dive is a possible alternative. The lag afterwards will be significantly shortened, since you will land immediately after you peak (you CANNOT fall back through if you miss; falling through requires you to be completely prone in the air, which will not happen if you are looking to gain the advantage of decreased lag). Perhaps this might be an alternative to uair, if your opponent consistently shield camps the platform. I personally would still stray away from it, because it still isn't very safe. You can be hit.

d) ledgehopping. I don't see much potential in this variation. The only thing it does better than a ledgehopped knee is range, and a ledgehopped uair will have about the same range, and better knockback. The only thing I can see this being useful for is punishing an opponent who has been trained to shield your advance onto the stage, perhaps to shield grab. Lag afterwards is still terrible.

Someone (I think it was NESSBOUNDER) posted not too long ago 2 ways to COMBO into this move. I still haven't had the time to test it out properly, but from what Key tells me, the soft knee version of the combo may actually work well. If this dive could be COMBOED into, we'd have something going. Key n I will have to get back to you guys on this.

I see only one advantage to using the dive, and that is 4% more damage. Uair is a far better alternative in just about every situation. More knockback, lagless, better range, much faster.

I realize I sound negative in this post. I really wish falcon had something going for him with this move, but as I see it, there really aren't any advantages to it. I don't want people to automatically start spamming up bs and expect it to win matches for them. I think that if this move can consistently land damage for you and you aren't being punished severely when you miss, your opponents are making big blunders.

Lol @Tenki, how crazazy do you have to be to quote yourself. Props lol, I laughed

It's also a very nice move that comboes into itself. If you're quick, you can land three or four of these on an unsuspecting enemy. It messes with their heads and leaves them with a lot more damage.

This is plain impossible. Show me a video where a falcon can chain 3 or 4 dives together, and I'll show you an opponent with the attributes of a sandbag.

 

[Exia 00]

i h8 his up b because once i went for a spike and my bros killed me with that attack. it looked like i got meteored by the stage

 

[Tenki]

I see only one advantage to using the dive, and that is 4% more damage. Uair is a far better alternative in just about every situation. More knockback, lagless, better range, much faster.

Lol @Tenki, how crazazy do you have to be to quote yourself. Props lol, I laughed

I think what he suggested was to follow up a U-air/Aerial with it. If they dodge the U-air, then Falcon Dive should catch them. If they don't dodge the U-air/Aerial, then you can continue.

I don't think he was suggesting to use it as a standalone move...

Either way, what makes it a 'good move', according to him is its higher priority. For me, I like those moves as grabs/fight interruptors, like Ganondorf's Flame Choke. Except Falcon's is an Aerial based one :[

-----
PS
Any update on the Super Armor status of the move?

 

[BananaTrooper]

I think what he suggested was to follow up a U-air/Aerial with it. If they dodge the U-air, then Falcon Dive should catch them. If they don't dodge the U-air/Aerial, then you can continue.

I don't think he was suggesting to use it as a standalone move...

Either way, what makes it a 'good move', according to him is its higher priority. For me, I like those moves as grabs/fight interruptors, like Ganondorf's Flame Choke. Except Falcon's is an Aerial based one :[

-----
PS
Any update on the Super Armor status of the move?

I think you underestimate how broken the aerial dodge system in brawl is. Once you've dodged falcon's first aerial, you will already have fallen low enough to make up b pointless. When we played today, Iwan did use the up b as a standalone move. I don't think I recall him attempting to up b me after he had hit an aerial (if he did, it can't have happened more than once out of approx. 10 dittos, else I would have remembered).. I was paying attention to the move and to how he used it, as I was curious if the dive was actually a viable option. Priority wise, what's the point of having decent priority, if the move can't land?

Falcon has SA frames when he's connected with the dive but hasn't rebounded off you (at least, I think so; I personally havent noticed it, I'm going off what was posted previously).There's not much else to it.

 

[mesCo]

Good stuff. I already knew that it could be used to ledge hop, but other than that, this is pretty new to me.

I personally think you should only use it for recovery, ledgehopping, or when they do a SH'd arial. On the ground, this move can suck horribly if it misses. Ive also noticed that up B sometimes works after a down throw, but only on some characters at a specific dmg. I dont really know which chars. I rarely use it tho, cuz i feel like theres other attacks that are better. Ill try to use this more often now

P.S. - You go to VT? My older bro's a freshman there, tho i highly doubt u would know him somehow.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I've been actually using this move a lot before you mentioned about this stuff. It's by far better than Falcon's regular grab in terms of range and output.

And no, this attack doesn't have super armor. Magus says grabs just outprioritize attacks, so you are given a grab even if you are hit at the same frame you would have grabbed at.

The Ganondorf forums also have mentioned that Ganondorf's Up-B is useful for quite similar reasons. It doesn't gain as much horizontal distance as Falcon's yes, but it does have great priority and damage (less knockback than Falcon's though). Ganondorf's also has the benefit of a strong disjointed uppercut at the very end of the attack.

 

[Iwan]

I've been actually using this move a lot before you mentioned about this stuff. It's by far better than Falcon's regular grab in terms of range and output.

And no, this attack doesn't have super armor. Magus says grabs just outprioritize attacks, so you are given a grab even if you are hit at the same frame you would have grabbed at.

The Ganondorf forums also have mentioned that Ganondorf's Up-B is useful for quite similar reasons. It doesn't gain as much horizontal distance as Falcon's yes, but it does have great priority and damage (less knockback than Falcon's though). Ganondorf's also has the benefit of a strong disjointed uppercut at the very end of the attack.

Yea...i noticed you posted that some time ago, that this move can replace a grab. That, along with Tenki's post on play style's, got me thinking about this move. So props to you of course .

Also, Banana, i was DEFINITELY spamming this move, way, way too much. Haha, and you punished the hell out of me for it . But like i said in my other recent post, I realized this isn't a stand alone move, and that it's only good in certain circumstance. The damage (17 percent), priority, and good range come in handy if you use it when it's viable.

And at the times i decided to use it against you , it wasn't vaible. lol...not at all . Hence why i was *****...because not only is your falcon fairly sick ...but i was straying too far off of my game, my play style.

As you said, i was trying to use this as a "standalone" gameplan. And after matches today (with both you and others), i can definitely say that this was the wrong approach. But i still believe this move has some very viable uses that could definitely be valuable in his overall game.

And you don't sound "negative" at all man...haha, i know you want what's best for falcon . And you're right it isn't "the end all be all" i initially thought it might be when i first made this post, but the move has it's uses...especially when someone doesn't abuse the hell out of it (see: me earlier ).

lol. Nice Ike btw

 

[Runeblade279]

Interesting analysis, I should test out adding the Falcon Dive to my game.

Shield Cancel-able is dreamy, I'm a big dash-shield man, would be nice to have something besides grab out of that..

 

[BananaTrooper]

Yea...i noticed you posted that some time ago, that this move can replace a grab. That, along with Tenki's post on play style's, got me thinking about this move. So props to you of course .

Also, Banana, i was DEFINITELY spamming this move, way, way too much. Haha, and you punished the hell out of me for it . But like i said in my other recent post, I realized this isn't a stand alone move, and that it's only good in certain circumstance. The damage (17 percent), priority, and good range come in handy if you use it when it's viable.

And at the times i decided to use it against you , it wasn't vaible. lol...not at all . Hence why i was *****...because not only is your falcon fairly sick ...but i was straying too far off of my game, my play style.

As you said, i was trying to use this as a "standalone" gameplan. And after matches today (with both you and others), i can definitely say that this was the wrong approach. But i still believe this move has some very viable uses that could definitely be valuable in his overall game.

And you don't sound "negative" at all man...haha, i know you want what's best for falcon . And you're right it isn't "the end all be all" i initially thought it might be when i first made this post, but the move has it's uses...especially when someone doesn't abuse the hell out of it (see: me earlier ).

lol. Nice Ike btw

It would be awesome if we could get some videos of this move. If the up b is really a good alternative, then there MUST be situations where you a) can land the move with very high consistency, or b) cannot be punished for missing it. Off the top of my head, perhaps on stages like yoshi's island: characters with recoveries like DDDs, diddy's, or PIT/MK (glide) may find themselves landing on the top platform with significant lag, enough to warrant an up B. Still, I'm not sure exactly how significant the lag is for these recoveries (I'm sure theres more, please post if you can think of some), and for DDD, landing ABOVE falcon with his up b is just asking for a knee into the gut.

Thanks for the compliments Iwan You've got a nice falcon, and you play a lot more carefully than I do (save for the spamming up b part, lol). We'll have to play again when you're not experimenting with new techniques. Your falco is also nice.

 

[Iwan]

It would be awesome if we could get some videos of this move. If the up b is really a good alternative, then there MUST be situations where you a) can land the move with very high consistency, or b) cannot be punished for missing it. Off the top of my head, perhaps on stages like yoshi's island: characters with recoveries like DDDs, diddy's, or PIT/MK (glide) may find themselves landing on the top platform with significant lag, enough to warrant an up B. Still, I'm not sure exactly how significant the lag is for these recoveries (I'm sure theres more, please post if you can think of some), and for DDD, landing ABOVE falcon with his up b is just asking for a knee into the gut.

Thanks for the compliments Iwan You've got a nice falcon, and you play a lot more carefully than I do (save for the spamming up b part, lol). We'll have to play again when you're not experimenting with new techniques. Your falco is also nice.

Haha...i noticed today that the up b is way, way more useful for character specific match ups. Bigger characters like donkey kong and bowser can particularly be hit with it more often than a fast falling character or quick character. And his up b also outprioritizes kirby's down b, which is pretty cool. And D3's recovery is asking for an Up b, just because he's basically helpless. On the uprising he gets hit with it, and on the downfall, the up b out prioritizes it.

Haha...and thank you. We'll definitely play again soon. I'm probably just going to mess around with character specific stuff tomorrow as far as the up b goes. But not long, and then we can play for sure. lol.

AND I WANA PLAY KEY KID.

Where you at keykid ?

 

[Medic]

I tend to get at least two of the Up B's off when I'm being chased in midair off the stage. Just because it's not easy to land doesn't mean it's unfeasible.
The attack still has solid priority and is relatively quick to pull out. It's not a bad move, and it's not the key to the city of I-win, but I stand by my statement that it is a solid move in Falcon's armory.

 

[Iwan]

Good stuff. I already knew that it could be used to ledge hop, but other than that, this is pretty new to me.

I personally think you should only use it for recovery, ledgehopping, or when they do a SH'd arial. On the ground, this move can suck horribly if it misses. Ive also noticed that up B sometimes works after a down throw, but only on some characters at a specific dmg. I dont really know which chars. I rarely use it tho, cuz i feel like theres other attacks that are better. Ill try to use this more often now

P.S. - You go to VT? My older bro's a freshman there, tho i highly doubt u would know him somehow.

Haha...I actually go to Radford University, which is literally about 20 minutes away from V-tech. I'm not up there very often, but will be next semester for sure (Tech is starting a gaming league of sorts for Halo and smash !)

 

[KeyKid19]

I don't understand the combo-ability that Medic talks about either, BananaTrooper. You go the opposite direction of your opponent when it hits! Maybe if the cooldown lag wasn't like 3 seconds (LOL) it would be able to have good followup. But the only followup I ever get with it is when they get knocked off the stage by it and then I have time to land, dash (THANK YOU dash speed), and edgeguard. But that's not really a true followup anyways.

Ok so after playing like 4 or 5 matches against the same ZSS that is in the video I posted of myself in the Falcon Video Thread, I came to the conclusion that UpB definitely has use. For example:

Zamus' Dair is just asking for an UpB. I got a nice 17% everytime the Zamus tried Dair-ing me.

Shield-canceled UpB is great when you are shielding and your opponent is attacking your shield. No matter how short the lag after they attack, you will be able to get an UpB in. It is more useful than a grab because its grab range is MUCH further than Falcon's terrible shield grab range. It also does more damage. It is more useful than any of his tilts because you have no chance of getting your attack broken because it will outprioritize any attack. It also does slightly more damage than any of the tilts. The same reasoning applies to why it's more useful than the AAA combo as well. I see no reason why UpB shouldn't be used as a shield-canceled move. I know that you CAN miss, but it's not likely if you have any enemy anticipation skills at all.

UpB is a good ledgehop depending on the situation. Like I've said before it outprioritizes essentially everything so you don't have to worry about getting hit like you do with Fair and Uair. It also has the ability reach beyond the range of those other two ledgehopped moves.

Dash-canceled UpB is useful if you are chasing after hitting your opponent up. If you don't "mindgame" them correctly and DO get airdodged, oh well because you can DI and FF far enough away from where your opponent lands that they won't be able to land and then dash over to you before your lag is over. Maybe Sonic could but I haven't tested this on Sonic so I don't know. lol While UpB has more priority than Running A, it's harder to connect with, so if your opponent is on the ground I don't think UpB is that great of an option. Still useful depending on the situation I think though.

In the end, using the UpB effectively is a great part of Falcon's game. It's not an end-all, but if you use it smart you can open up a new dimension to your game. If you are good at noticing your opponent's airdodge patterns then you can really put this move to great use.

BananaTrooper, Iwan; we need to get together on Wi-Fi soon.

 

[Reaver197]

OMG, teh reignz of Falconz might not be totally unpossible!!

It goes past Zamus's dair? I guess the question is also, can it go past Toon Link's, MetaKnight's, and, just for giggles, Ike's? If it reaches through Ike's, than I don't think Falcon will need to worry about getting daired by anyone any more.

I've grabbed through ROB's though, for much level spiking and lolz.

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

@Reaver: I just checked, and it didn't go through any of those character's dairs. It did go through Toon Link once, but I still got the damage from the attack. Further experimenting might be needed.

Edit: Just checked, and as long as you approach toon link from the sides, you'll grab him. You'll still get the 13% damage from his dair though.

Edit: I think it goes through some parts of Meta and Marth's dairs. Once again, I encourage more experienced players to check this.

 

[KeyKid19]

Toon Link Dair: Yes but only from certain angles. If he is directly above you and you do it you'll get hit. But if he's the slightest bit in front of you, you'll get it. I guess this makes sense since the UpB hitbox is essentially Falcon's face, not the top of his head (if that makes sense to anybody but me lol).

Metaknight: Essentially same story here. I've gotten it to work but like Toon Link's it only works if Meta is a smidge in front of you as you approach. If you're off you're going to get hit.

Ike: Breaks through Aether's drop. Dair as well from certain angle of appraoch (the sides). Same story as the others.

Game and Watch: I can't seem to get a grab on it unless I would otherwise not get hit by it. lol Maybe that's true with my other tests and I didn't notice? So yeah possible error there. If someone else has a better way to test than one person manning two controllers poorly while trying to make observations at the same time then please do so. lol

One note about all of these: UpB's priority SEEMS to strengthen as the move progress through its duration. If I've just started the jump portion (not the crouching-ish startup portion but actually the first little bit of upward movement) I get get hit by all three of the aforementioned Dairs. But if I start my UpB a little earlier and thereby get more UpB duration BEFORE I reach the Dair, I outprioritize them. Also, sometimes I take damage when I outprioritize and sometimes I don't. This makes me think that MAYBE the middle priority takes damage and MAYBE the highest priority of the UpB doesn't. That's just a guess though. It could just be differences in my approach angle. lol

More testing is needed!

Edit: Y34HDUD3!!! got the same results as me. The only way this Dair breaking works is if your approach a smidge to the side of the attack. This is probably why I could do this to Zamus so easily because her attack comes at the perfect angle towards me.

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

I had a little trouble doing it myself with both controllers, but maybe I can talk my little brother into it when he comes back home.

Edit: It goes through Olimar's dair. (You still get damage) Hurray!!!

Edit: It doesn't go through Dedede's dair, but if you grab him from the sides then there's no problem.

Edit: Goes through Ganondorf's.

Edit: Goes through Sheik's, go for Zelda's sides or you'll get hit.

Edit: Go for Link's sides.

Edit: Goes through the front of Pit's dair attack. (the part of the attack facing you) (You still get damage)

Edit: Go for Lucario's sides. (You still get a bit of damage from the first blast)

Edit: The Ice Climbers are special. You will damage the one you grab a little bit but the other one will hit you and won't let you finish the attack. Isn't favorable, IMO.

That's everything I'll test for today. I'm to lazy to keep going.

 

[Tenki]

Edit: The Ice Climbers are special. You will damage the one you grab a little bit but the other one will hit you and won't let you finish the attack. Isn't favorable, IMO.

:[

Sad to say, but I think this means that it doesn't have any Super Armor at ANY point in up-B.

Grab priority (grabbing but taking damage) at the best, but it doesn't seem like he has any actual Super Armor during a missed up-B nor while grabbing with up-B.

 

[HOHO420]

Ok, I just picked up falcon and he's loads of fun, but whats the YES! combo?

 

[Tenki]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165492

Search ftw :D

not to mention it's still on the first page, titled "The YES! combo
, due to the lack of active threads on the Falcon boards.

 

[Iwan]

:[

Sad to say, but I think this means that it doesn't have any Super Armor at ANY point in up-B.

Grab priority (grabbing but taking damage) at the best, but it doesn't seem like he has any actual Super Armor during a missed up-B nor while grabbing with up-B.

Yea...i'll be sure to update that in my original post.

And to KeyKid, Y34HDUDE, and anyone else who's been testing this while i've been busy today (last final tomorrow), THANK YOU!!!!

I'll continue to test this tomorrow in the afternoonish up until late at night. Key, i'll be happy to play you tomorrow. Hit me up with an IM . AND KEEP MESSING AROUND WITH THIS MOVE GUYS.

Thanks a lot