Unpopular opinion: Yoshi is not high tier. Evidence inside.

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Depends on the TO. They should be standardized in non-customs environment but they aren't. :/

 

[YoHeKing]

Depends on the TO. They should be standardized in non-customs environment but they aren't. :/

Well tbh the aerials still have lag and dont really have any dangerous knockback at all. All thatd scary is piston punch but it should bother us at all.

 

[CourageHound]

I really don't want to be involved in this argument at all, but from personal experience I have found Yoshi to be a very good character.

Good discussion/arguments go a long way.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I don't think Yoshi has the best air mobility on the game. Don't confuse speed with mobility.

lol was drunk, but yes Yoshi/Jiggs has the best airspeed/momentum in the game, mobility not so much since sheik zss and diddy takes the cake.

 

[YoHeKing]

lol was drunk, but yes Yoshi/Jiggs has the best airspeed/momentum in the game, mobility not so much since sheik zss and diddy takes the cake.

Yeah. But airspeed just makes you be able to get away more safely. Diddys dang forward airs and sheiks are so good.

Edit: I feel like Sheik and Yoshi's off stage game is much better then diddys and ZSS. And there in air frame traps seem just alot better. So wouldnt that make Yoshi and Sheik have a mire balanced air game then diddy and ZSS?

 

[muddykips]

ok so, reading through this thread, i noticed some things that weren't really discussed, or at the very least were touched on but didn't go into elaboration.

the biggest thing im surprised about is that nobody discussed yoshi's weakness to disjoints. disjoints give us a ton of trouble, because:
1. they beat most of our options
2. they beat all of our aerial options (unless they're above us ?)
3. we're in the air a lot so that's extra bad
4. we don't really have oos solutions to those
5. disjoints can even block eggs!!

sword characters give us the most trouble here - but there are other characters with scattered disjoints that can be hard to deal with (ness' fair, peach's crown, mega's uair, diddy's fair...). upsmashes can give us trouble too, since a lot of them are also disjoints or just downright have invincibility on them.

and the main reason for all of this is that we're in the air a lot. i definitely agree that we need to work on our ground game a lot more, but i feel like no matter how hard we work at it, our grab is always going to hold us back. i'm pretty sure every other character in the game has a grab that's quicker and/or has better rewards, which means we naturally don't have much reason to use our comparatively shorter end of the stick. there's no sense going out of our way to incorporate a move that's high risk for low reward when we have better / safer options than it.

being an aerial character is kind of a downside, since the air is a pretty dangerous place to be; we don't have the safety of shield (not like our shield is that great anyways) while the enemy DOES have a shield, there's no clanking in the air, we can get out-prioritized, our only solution to disjoints is airdodge / dj armor, and we're liable to get swatted, particularly because of our slow fastfall. since yoshi lacks kill setups, we need to win neutral, which makes our playstyle kind of dumb since the air is an arguably disadvantageous place to be to begin with.

yoshi has a lot of strong and quick options which make lower level players hate our guts, but he's held back at a higher level by the [probably] worst grab in the game, his limited oos options, weakness to disjoints, and also because he prefers the air. honestly, i think this is the main reason why we don't see yoshis get that many good tournament results - there's weird characters like ike and marth that can give us a lot of trouble, sometimes more trouble than a "higher tier" character. i don't have any proof, but i feel like behind the scenes, those characters are beating us, and then the other, higher tier characters like sheik and rosa mop the floor with them - since you don't see those ikes or marths in finals, either.

so maybe the problem, speaking in terms of tourneys, is that we're more worried about those bigger names in the game when we should be giving some "lower" characters more attention. maybe establishing a better ground game will help with that.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Disjoints is why Yoshi has lost against most sword characters since Melee.
And a reason why before any of us even talked about any sword character in smash 4 in any shape or form, Raptor was the first to mention a sword character finally and say "Marth beats us -3 probably"
I didn't believe at first but with all the buffs Marth has been getting... I can believe that now.

Otherwise, mention of sword characters was more of "HOW BEAT FOR GLORY LINKS, THEY ROLL DASH ATTACK AND THROW ITEMS ALL DAI"

 

[YoHeKing]

ok so, reading through this thread, i noticed some things that weren't really discussed, or at the very least were touched on but didn't go into elaboration.

the biggest thing im surprised about is that nobody discussed yoshi's weakness to disjoints. disjoints give us a ton of trouble, because:
1. they beat most of our options
2. they beat all of our aerial options (unless they're above us ?)
3. we're in the air a lot so that's extra bad
4. we don't really have oos solutions to those
5. disjoints can even block eggs!!

sword characters give us the most trouble here - but there are other characters with scattered disjoints that can be hard to deal with (ness' fair, peach's crown, mega's uair, diddy's fair...). upsmashes can give us trouble too, since a lot of them are also disjoints or just downright have invincibility on them.

and the main reason for all of this is that we're in the air a lot. i definitely agree that we need to work on our ground game a lot more, but i feel like no matter how hard we work at it, our grab is always going to hold us back. i'm pretty sure every other character in the game has a grab that's quicker and/or has better rewards, which means we naturally don't have much reason to use our comparatively shorter end of the stick. there's no sense going out of our way to incorporate a move that's high risk for low reward when we have better / safer options than it.

being an aerial character is kind of a downside, since the air is a pretty dangerous place to be; we don't have the safety of shield (not like our shield is that great anyways) while the enemy DOES have a shield, there's no clanking in the air, we can get out-prioritized, our only solution to disjoints is airdodge / dj armor, and we're liable to get swatted, particularly because of our slow fastfall. since yoshi lacks kill setups, we need to win neutral, which makes our playstyle kind of dumb since the air is an arguably disadvantageous place to be to begin with.

yoshi has a lot of strong and quick options which make lower level players hate our guts, but he's held back at a higher level by the [probably] worst grab in the game, his limited oos options, weakness to disjoints, and also because he prefers the air. honestly, i think this is the main reason why we don't see yoshis get that many good tournament results - there's weird characters like ike and marth that can give us a lot of trouble, sometimes more trouble than a "higher tier" character. i don't have any proof, but i feel like behind the scenes, those characters are beating us, and then the other, higher tier characters like sheik and rosa mop the floor with them - since you don't see those ikes or marths in finals, either.

so maybe the problem, speaking in terms of tourneys, is that we're more worried about those bigger names in the game when we should be giving some "lower" characters more attention. maybe establishing a better ground game will help with that.

This brings up alot of the stuff we actually talked about... Also I don't get how we have limited out of sheild options? Disjoints are really not the problem here though. There pretty annoying though.

Edit: Marths buffs eventually may make the MU horrible. As of right now though he still eats eggs.

Edit2: actually disjoints are really annoying lmao. Theres ways around them though. Its not like a MU breaking thing.

 

[CourageHound]

This may sound weird, but I've actually used Charizard vs a few Yoshi's in my area and don't mind the matchup as much as I thought I would due to Zard's range and disjoints. Possibly just matcup unfamiliarity and the fact I know Yoshi.

 

[YoHeKing]

This may sound weird, but I've actually used Charizard vs a few Yoshi's in my area and don't mind the matchup as much as I thought I would due to Zard's range and disjoints. Possibly just matcup unfamiliarity and the fact I know Yoshi.

Charzards just a beast. Hes like bowser but an aerial version. To bad hes so slow.

 

[ymtah]

Seriously though, if a player using a character with handy disjoints knows what theyre doing (and we can only assume they do; discussing otherwise would be redundant), spacing and aggressing in neutral become close to impossible due to Yoshi's limited aerial attack range. Nair and jab out of shield become some of the only ways to put him in an advantageous position, which not only means his follow-ups are limited and reliant on reads but the opponent will have little trouble conditioning you.

It is at this point it becomes prudent to pick up a secondary that can deal with these nasty MUs.

Shulk or something.
Aint nobody outranging Shulk.

 

[CourageHound]

Charzards just a beast. Hes like bowser but an aerial version. To bad hes so slow.

His general movement might be slow, but his moves are quite fast in their own right. Range, dmg, and kill power are also nice.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Our running and pivot grab have pretty reasonable startup for a tether grab, but our standing grab is the worst in the game which is pretty redundant considering our throws are (probably) the worst in the game.

 

[YoHeKing]

His general movement might be slow, but his moves are quite fast in their own right. Range, dmg, and kill power are also nice.

Thats yoshi in a nutshell tho... kinda.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi's grab game and throws are so useless that I still kinda think I should take grab off my controller and set it for something else.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

grabs can act like a risky disjointed attack. That's the only positive I can see to it really.

 

[Delta-cod]

You have to throw out grabs and grab them because you can't just let them be safe in shield. Even if the reward isn't great, you have to condition them into not being allowed to shield everything.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Down B or neutral B.
Possible shield break into kill or full Dair or Neutral B into more damage than 2 pummels and 7% F/Bthrow (around 12%?)

Of course just theorycrafting here to poop on our bad grab game some more lol

 

[YoHeKing]

Down B or neutral B.
Possible shield break into kill or full Dair or Neutral B into more damage than 2 pummels and 7% F/Bthrow (around 12%?)

Of course just theorycrafting here to poop on our bad grab game some more lol

They shoulda added egg lay to down throw. Forward throw a spit like thing but with an egg kinda like kirbys. Up throw a up throw into egg like falcos and back throw like ness'. Just kidding about the ness part.

 

[CourageHound]

Thats yoshi in a nutshell tho... kinda.

Yoshiisn't slow, and only move that covers space while being moderately safe is fair.

Also has anyone every tried down throw to instant DJ air?

 

[YoHeKing]

Yoshiisn't slow, and only move that covers space while being moderately safe is fair.

Also has anyone every tried down throw to instant DJ air?

Yeah. It can set up a true combo without DI. Also I know yoshi isnt slow. He has pretty big hitbox's though.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Dthrow Uair is the main discussion that's been going on in multiple threads for yoshi the past 3 months.
So yeah we know, more than half the cast has it, some better than others.

 

[Delta-cod]

Down B or neutral B.
Possible shield break into kill or full Dair or Neutral B into more damage than 2 pummels and 7% F/Bthrow (around 12%?)

Of course just theorycrafting here to poop on our bad grab game some more lol

The problem is that the meat of Down B can be rolled away from, and neutral b can't be done out of shield. But yes, Egg Lay is also quite important for the same purpose.

 

[Duplighost]

Good discussion/arguments go a long way.

Hahaha of course, but I'm not really knowledgeable on Yoshi's frame data and statistical facts like I wish I was.

 

[Delta-cod]

Hahaha of course, but I'm not really knowledgeable on Yoshi's frame data and statistical facts like I wish I was.

SHAZAM

http://smashboards.com/threads/yoshi-frame-and-misc-data-thread-wip.391441/

Educate yo'self

 

[Duplighost]

SHAZAM

http://smashboards.com/threads/yoshi-frame-and-misc-data-thread-wip.391441/

Educate yo'self

That looks... terrifying.
Thank you though! (:

 

[muddykips]

This brings up alot of the stuff we actually talked about... Also I don't get how we have limited out of sheild options? Disjoints are really not the problem here though. There pretty annoying though.

Edit: Marths buffs eventually may make the MU horrible. As of right now though he still eats eggs.

Edit2: actually disjoints are really annoying lmao. Theres ways around them though. Its not like a MU breaking thing.

saying there's "ways around it" doesnt negate the fact that it gets in our way pretty bad. what are these ways around it? do they give us much room for variety? and most importantly, are these options effective offline, where people can fully control their movements and actually space their disjoints (unlike stuff like kj's online marth)?

like yeah, i saw some people TOUCH on this stuff in the thread, but nothing really in-depth as to how we could go about solving it. sure, they don't make the MU impossible (i think we'd know by now if that were the case), but i really don't think they're dismissible as just "annoying", especially since buffs are still being distributed and the meta is still evolving.

i'm just worried that we're sleeping on these characters, and maybe that's why we don't get far in tournaments. i can deal with characters like ness, luigi, pikachu, even sheik reasonably well - but when e.g. an ike player comes along who actually knows what they're doing, i find myself having a good amount of trouble. and this is online; i don't think just running away and throwing eggs at them would cause as much trouble if we were fighting in, say, an offline tournament. it's just one projectile.

would improving our groundgame help with this (e.g. maybe foxtrotting more, neutral b wavebounces, incorporating sideb somehow)? or maybe there's a way we can revamp our airgame to give us more options against disjoints that dont involve smacking our face into a tipper?

i'm not saying anything new by pointing out disjoints give us trouble. but how do we DEAL with them, or better yet, how can we SOLVE them? yoshi's still pretty versatile, so i don't think finding a new way to approach them is impossible.

 

[YoHeKing]

saying there's "ways around it" doesnt negate the fact that it gets in our way pretty bad. what are these ways around it? do they give us much room for variety? and most importantly, are these options effective offline, where people can fully control their movements and actually space their disjoints (unlike stuff like kj's online marth)?

like yeah, i saw some people TOUCH on this stuff in the thread, but nothing really in-depth as to how we could go about solving it. sure, they don't make the MU impossible (i think we'd know by now if that were the case), but i really don't think they're dismissible as just "annoying", especially since buffs are still being distributed and the meta is still evolving.

i'm just worried that we're sleeping on these characters, and maybe that's why we don't get far in tournaments. i can deal with characters like ness, luigi, pikachu, even sheik reasonably well - but when e.g. an ike player comes along who actually knows what they're doing, i find myself having a good amount of trouble. and this is online; i don't think just running away and throwing eggs at them would cause as much trouble if we were fighting in, say, an offline tournament. it's just one projectile.

would improving our groundgame help with this (e.g. maybe foxtrotting more, neutral b wavebounces, incorporating sideb somehow)? or maybe there's a way we can revamp our airgame to give us more options against disjoints that dont involve smacking our face into a tipper?

i'm not saying anything new by pointing out disjoints give us trouble. but how do we DEAL with them, or better yet, how can we SOLVE them? yoshi's still pretty versatile, so i don't think finding a new way to approach them is impossible.

Actually perfect pivot jabs are something all yoshi mains should learn. Its a quick and easy option to get away from sheild. Foxtrot and stuff like dash into forward tilt or forward smash are something we should all learn also.

I am actually working on jab reseting, double jump approaching, foxtrots, uses of tilts and some other things. Yoshis forward tilt cancels out alot in fact and is one of his safest options to punish imo. We really shouldnt neglect the uses of tilts and moves we really dont use much.

Most disjoints really don't beat yoshis air speed really. And the major disjoints seem to be slow enough. Why not just bait stuff out or go none stop safe agressive play style(retreating aerials, baiting with weird moves, jump into airdodge).

 

[muddykips]

dash into tilts / fsmash is definitely something i wanna work on. the more options we have on the ground, the better.
double jump approaches can also be nice at low percents, but it feels kind of awkward to follow up with stuff / it's a bit unnatural for us to use doublejump haphazardly? i mean yeah, i guess that's just something to be worked on. the most i use dj's armor for at the moment is for when i get thrown, and the opponent tries to follow it up with something; doublejump into instant downb is really nice.

also, it was already discussed that yoshi has more air speed than other characters, but not as much mobility. it's a bit less intimidating when we throw out empty jumps than when someone like ZSS or diddy does, since our jumps are more committal and lack a real fastfall. and the problem with baiting stuff out is that all of our moves extend our hurtbox; we can't really afford to be even "safely" aggressive against disjoints, since 90% of the time we can't even trade with their footsies.

i want to use a playstyle that can effectively keep the enemy from advancing. incorporating eggs is important, but there needs to be more for us to prevent the opponent from conditioning us. since the main problem with disjoints is that the opponent throws them out / uses them in the air, being grounded is probably a better solution; in particular, i want to use my tilts more. heck, if we could even think of a good way to condition our opponents into DIing out of our throws wrong, that'd help a lot. better than just giving up on our grab, at least.

 

[Delta-cod]

I used to just camp out characters with disjoints, but the changes to pivot grab have really hurt that.

Currently, and I'm just spitballing here, I'd consider trying to incorporate B reverse Egg Tosses as baits. Y'know, hop toward them and then reverse with an egg, keeping you safe and nailing them.

Perhaps things like ET OOS is also an answer. It would add to our ground game, and it's also worth nothing that most disjoints used in neutral are aerial, so all we need to do is run in > shield > retreat/advance ET OOS.

 

[Skitrel]

I used to just camp out characters with disjoints, but the changes to pivot grab have really hurt that.

Currently, and I'm just spitballing here, I'd consider trying to incorporate B reverse Egg Tosses as baits. Y'know, hop toward them and then reverse with an egg, keeping you safe and nailing them.

Perhaps things like ET OOS is also an answer. It would add to our ground game, and it's also worth nothing that most disjoints used in neutral are aerial, so all we need to do is run in > shield > retreat/advance ET OOS.

This idea makes me wonder if specials can be buffered to cancel perfect shields. I know it works with jabs, tilts and smashes.

If they can the frame advantage provided by cancelling perfect shields is a big deal. A hit with the egg would also setup guaranteed uair at the range you'd be from your opponent.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Wavebounce eggtosses you mean?
Imma try practicing wavebouncing neutral b a bit more, I can do it before but it's more of a 50:50 chance of me getting it. I like the movement it gives when you have it on a consistent basis so I might try and bump it up to at least 6 out of 10.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

This idea makes me wonder if specials can be buffered to cancel perfect shields. I know it works with jabs, tilts and smashes.

If they can the frame advantage provided by cancelling perfect shields is a big deal. A hit with the egg would also setup guaranteed uair at the range you'd be from your opponent.

yes specials can too, but at that distance eggs would not really lead to combos due to how close you are. Egg combos only really work if you hit near the end of the arc which would also take forever to come out. Fsmash is our best PS punish move.

 

[Skitrel]

Wavebounce eggtosses you mean?
Imma try practicing wavebouncing neutral b a bit more, I can do it before but it's more of a 50:50 chance of me getting it. I like the movement it gives when you have it on a consistent basis so I might try and bump it up to at least 6 out of 10.

No, I mean using Egg Toss out of a Perfect Parry. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlGQpPg5PQc)

Egg combos only really work if you hit near the end of the arc which would also take forever to come out.

Oh really? I had never noticed there was a knockback difference between the start of the arc and the end of the arc! It seems obvious now as I use grounded short throws straight up to punish rushdown opponents who get only a small amount of knockback.

I've also wondered whether jump is bufferable out of perfect parry too, I assume if it IS then the jump would also be cancellable which would mean it should also be technically possible to cancel that jump into other moves, providing a quick sliding movement option out of shield for spacing Fsmash or Usmash against opponents using moves that would normally be safe on our shield.

All just theorycrafting as I haven't had lab time.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I was answering to Delta.

 

[Skitrel]

Oops! Disregard

 

[JBones]

Fair nair and up air are safe on sheild if you know how to space good (which isnt really hard).

Could you go into more detail about this? Sometimes I'll just jump and nair or fair into their shield and get punished with a grab. I typically move forward when I use these moves if that matters

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

No, I mean using Egg Toss out of a Perfect Parry. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlGQpPg5PQc)

Yes that would be a PS cancel.

Oh really? I had never noticed there was a knockback difference between the start of the arc and the end of the arc! It seems obvious now as I use grounded short throws straight up to punish rushdown opponents who get only a small amount of knockback.

It has the same knockback but if you hit with the move early you'll have to go through all of your endlag as opposed to hitting near the end of the move. This is also fairly significant with up tilt. If you hit them with the back hit you have more time to act allowing it to combo better. The amount of time it takes to set up an egg combo is comparable to a slightly charged Fsmash.

 

[Delta-cod]

Could you go into more detail about this? Sometimes I'll just jump and nair or fair into their shield and get punished with a grab. I typically move forward when I use these moves if that matters

For Fair, you'll need to hit at max range and be pulling away from them as the move connects. This'll put you far enough away to be safe.

For Uair and Nair, you'd want to do them right before landing, and you'll probably also need to cross up their shield too (land behind them).

 

[fuzyll]

Since that Combo Breaker result, we still haven't seen anything from Yoshi players

So, just wanted to point out that Raptor is currently top-12 at Smash Con: http://supersmashcon.challonge.com/wiiusingles. :D

EDIT: Super unfortunate time-out on the first match against DKWill... Actually pretty confident Raptor could have won that.