Unban IDC (proposal inside) DON'T FREAKIN CLOSE WITHOUT EXPLANATION MODS!

[zaf]

In PRACTICE, is it broken to the point of overcentralization (which woyld indeed warrant a ban)? That's the question that can't be answered right now.

AGAIN, plz don't argue "fair" here.

If you look at the IDC from the way i have explained it,
then yes it deserves a ban.

IT gives only one character an advantage over every character.

 

[chesterr01]

Ok let's put it this way: imagine snake had a way to be invincible. Just like, he could box taunt into nikita, and magically ride the nikita infinitely and become invincible. He can't attack but anytime he's in a rough spot, he'd nikita box his way would of trouble.

THIS IS JUST AS ********. What, are you saying "unban IDC, you can use it in this situation just fine!"? Well it still gives an advantage that isn't offered to anyone. The fact that you truly want this unbanned is amazing. Maybe I'm missing something, show me how the Nikita box IDC could be used in a reasonable way, without giving an inherent advantage to MK.

 

[metaXzero]

If you look at the IDC from the way i have explained it,
then yes it deserves a ban.

IT gives only one character an advantage over every character.

By your logic, we should ban every little exclusive thing other characters have that give them an advantage over other characters. IC infinites, Diddy banana tricks, D3 Chaingrab, etc.

This is VERY poor logic to kerp IDC banned.

EDIT: chester01. Just like this, if that Nikita box whatever proved itself broken (in practice) to the point of needing banning, THEN we ban it. We don't just rely on theory and claim it's broken.

 

[chesterr01]

IC infinites - don't get grabbed, space yourself. ICs have like the 3rd worse grab range, D3 chaingrab doesn't work against everyone, and standing infinites are banned. Don't get grabbed, space yourself. You can even camp them like crazy. You can counter that.

Diddy banana tricks, you can get around that, you can take control of the bananas, you can counter that.

How can you get around IDC? Theoretically, all you can do is wait and platform camp. The MK has the advantage there, and you can never counterbalance that. He is never in a bad position while doing IDC, unless the MK is stupid and decides to pop up right next to you :s.

poor logic you say?

edit 2: It doesn't take a rocket scientist to learn IDC. If you want it unbanned then you must know how to do it right? Is it harder than pillaring in melee with falco with double shines between aerials? No... I mean I don't know how easy it is, but people told me of the timing required, it is it not fast at all. It's easy, humanly possible, and gives too much of an advantage. Nikita box is broken.

 

[metaXzero]

IC infinites - don't get grabbed, space yourself. ICs have like the 3rd worse grab range, D3 chaingrab doesn't work against everyone, and standing infinites are banned. Don't get grabbed, space yourself. You can even camp them like crazy. You can counter that.

Diddy banana tricks, you can get around that, you can take control of the bananas, you can counter that.

How can you get around IDC? Theoretically, all you can do is wait and platform camp. The MK has the advantage there, and you can never counterbalance that. He is never in a bad position while doing IDC, unless the MK is stupid and decides to pop up right next to you :s.

poor logic you say?

zaf was basically saying "IDC should remain banned because no other character can IDC, it's not fair". I was pointing out how bad that logic is by bringing up other things that are exclusive to other characters.

Theoretically, MK SHOULD be able to always hit you by waiting for you to leave yourself wide open. However, this ignores the fact that MK has to be CERTAIN that he will land that hit when he comes out. For if MK misses/gets shielded, he WILL getting punished due to the large ending lag of IDCs main attack. And MK can't afford to hold long IDCs due to the fact that every second counts. Also, what little we have in practice (2 videos) shows someone using IDC and getting PUNISHED most of the time.

What works in theory may not exactly work in practice. That's why we can't use theory as the end-all.

EDIT: Difficulty of use does not matter at all. The question is "without stalling, are IDC's applications overcentralizingly broken?". We currently can't answer due to lack of any evidence or results...

IMO, IDC is probably one of the hardest ATs to do consistantly in Brawl, let alone apply it. But again, difficulty of USE doesn't matter.

 

[zaf]

I was just practising doing this. It is very simple to do.
Also, after doing it, Meta Knight Does NOT have to attack, therefore he does not end in lag.
He can not be punished, making this very exploitable by professionals.
The people you play with that get punished when using IDC are just bad. =/

He can run away without being punished, name one character who can run from falco/fox and be completely out of harms way when they laser you.

EDIT: I main mk, and i don't even want this to be available.

 

[metaXzero]

I was just practising doing this. It is very simple to do.
Also, after doing it, Meta Knight Does NOT have to attack, therefore he does not end in lag.
He can not be punished, making this very exploitable by professionals.
The people you play with that get punished when using IDC are just bad. =/

He can run away without being punished, name one character who can run from falco/fox and be completely out of harms way when they laser you.

EDIT: I main mk, and i don't even want this to be available.

If they use IDC and simply just come out of it without accomplishing anything (especially if they were IDCing for a while before turning back), that was a waste of IDC use and time (something MK players CAN'T waste).

I was talking about ATTACKING out of IDC being punishable if you miss/get shielded. We know already know you could use IDC with intent to approach and attack, and just not attack and return to a safe position (and bring yourself closer to a timer based defeat if you constantly do this)...

 

[chesterr01]

If they use IDC and simply just come out of it without accomplishing anything (especially if they were IDCing for a while before turning back), that was a waste of IDC use and time (something MK players CAN'T waste).

I was talking about ATTACKING out of IDC being punishable if you miss/get shielded. We know already know you could use IDC with intent to approach and attack, and just not attack and return to a safe position (and bring yourself closer to a timer based defeat if you constantly do this)...

... how did this thread get to FOURTEEN PAGES?!?

Let me look at your post:

"waste of IDC use and time (something MK players CAN'T waste)"

A good MK player will never let time run out of them. Good MK players will rush down their opponent and end any game quickly, that's how it is at high level. The only times where games go over 5 minutes is when both players are scrubs, if the two players are being campy, or if the match up is inherently hard because one character cannot kill the other at low percentages (like jiggs vs rob or something). Most tournament vids you'll see will last under 4:30, especially in later rounds. So the time thing is not a good argument. This invalidates your post.

Also, let me remind you that the IDC attack in itself isn't a great attack. Are you telling me that you use it a lot? It's bad. If you're telling me that you can "surprise" your opponent and keep him on his toes with down+b, remember that the camera actually moves depending on where MK is. There's barely any surprise effect. The advantages are greatly outweighed by the disadvantages.

You want this unbanned, but all it would do it give free invincibility frames to MK to allow him to escape any situation at will. Without giving any decent argument, I hope this thread is closed today.

 

[Deleted member]

If they use IDC and simply just come out of it without accomplishing anything (especially if they were IDCing for a while before turning back), that was a waste of IDC use and time (something MK players CAN'T waste).

The whole point of banning it was to remove a potential cockblock that prevents tournaments from finishing.

 

[Hylian]

I can tell you that this will not be unbanned by the SBR. I'm pretty much 100% positive of that after reading this thread.

So...are you trying to convince TO's?

Haha good luck with that .

 

[Inui]

A good MK player will never let time run out of them. Good MK players will rush down their opponent and end any game quickly, that's how it is at high level. The only times where games go over 5 minutes is when both players are scrubs, if the two players are being campy, or if the match up is inherently hard because one character cannot kill the other at low percentages (like jiggs vs rob or something). Most tournament vids you'll see will last under 4:30, especially in later rounds. So the time thing is not a good argument. This invalidates your post.

teh_spamerer is likely the 2nd best MK in the nation. That could be wrong, but at absolute worst, he's in the top 5.

Running the clock on Dedede, and in general, is a strategy he employs at almost every tournament when facing other top players.

 

[swordgard]

The guy you played was fornaxxx chet, and yes it was very annoying, standing there knowing you cant do anything to stop him from attacking is very very annoying . If i fall into a combo, i know its my fault for getting hit and not hitting him before he does, now we just cant D:

 

[adumbrodeus]

If they use IDC and simply just come out of it without accomplishing anything (especially if they were IDCing for a while before turning back), that was a waste of IDC use and time (something MK players CAN'T waste).

I was talking about ATTACKING out of IDC being punishable if you miss/get shielded. We know already know you could use IDC with intent to approach and attack, and just not attack and return to a safe position (and bring yourself closer to a timer based defeat if you constantly do this)...

Spacing is a waste of time?

Also, let me remind you that the IDC attack in itself isn't a great attack. Are you telling me that you use it a lot? It's bad. If you're telling me that you can "surprise" your opponent and keep him on his toes with down+b, remember that the camera actually moves depending on where MK is. There's barely any surprise effect. The advantages are greatly outweighed by the disadvantages.

...

NORMALLY, it's not a great attack. Out of IDC it suddenly becomes an AMAZING attack.


Why?

Because when you stop maintaining the IDC if you use the attack, it comes out practically immediately out of his invisibility/invincibility frames, I'm not positive of the actual frame, but I believe it's something like frame 3. Too fast for it to be humanly possible to react to it.

And sure the camera moves, but when most of the screen is "in range" of the attack at every single moment, MK can literally launch the attack ANY INSTANT if you're below the top platform of battlefield or it's equivalent in other stages.

Yes, that's how far double-stick DIing from the center of the stage takes the out of cloak attack.


So yes, MK can surprise you with his attack, because unless you're at one of two locations (above the top platform of battlefield or on the ledge) you're always within range, and if he picks a random time to attack, odds are you won't be spotdodging or shielding when MK decides to attack, and since it's impossible to react to, and fast enough to punish the lag from spotdodging or rolling, while precise enough to hit places not covered by shield you've got basically one chance to defend, let's hope you predict right.

 

[metaXzero]

... how did this thread get to FOURTEEN PAGES?!?

Let me look at your post:

"waste of IDC use and time (something MK players CAN'T waste)"

A good MK player will never let time run out of them. Good MK players will rush down their opponent and end any game quickly, that's how it is at high level. The only times where games go over 5 minutes is when both players are scrubs, if the two players are being campy, or if the match up is inherently hard because one character cannot kill the other at low percentages (like jiggs vs rob or something). Most tournament vids you'll see will last under 4:30, especially in later rounds. So the time thing is not a good argument. This invalidates your post.

Also, let me remind you that the IDC attack in itself isn't a great attack. Are you telling me that you use it a lot? It's bad. If you're telling me that you can "surprise" your opponent and keep him on his toes with down+b, remember that the camera actually moves depending on where MK is. There's barely any surprise effect. The advantages are greatly outweighed by the disadvantages.

You want this unbanned, but all it would do it give free invincibility frames to MK to allow him to escape any situation at will. Without giving any decent argument, I hope this thread is closed today.

Other people on the "keep ban" side disagree with you. Some people (swordgard, adumbrodeus, dr. mario guy, etc) believe IDC to also be the perfect approach. But dr. mario guy, swordgard, and others also believe that all the benefits of IDC don't make up for the possibility of opponents camping them to the timer. They say IDC allowed under my rule will lead to lots IDC using MKs losing via timer

No one truly agrees on how powerful IDC truly is. It's all theory that hasn't been into practice (besides those 2 vids that make IDC look useless).

I can tell you that this will not be unbanned by the SBR. I'm pretty much 100% positive of that after reading this thread.

So...are you trying to convince TO's?

Haha good luck with that .

The original "unbeatable stall" and "inabillity to tell stalling from other uses" that was the main reason it got banned are GONE. Arguments of it's other applications being broken to the point of overcentralization are unproven in practice. As it stands, to keep IDC banned is to keep it banned on theory (which continues to be argued if it's actually true). And you DON'T ban things on arguable theory.

adumbrodeus. I was referring to approaching with IDC, then turning back for w/e reason (most likely, unsureness of being able to land that hit).

 

[Dojo]

I don't understand why you want this stupid technique so bad. It's not even that necessary in battle. It's a half-decent move at best when not used to stall and really doesn't benefit in a drastic way that half of the rest of your moveset cannot. You always have a better option.

Regardless, SBR isn't going to unban it, and good luck trying to get all the TO's to do it for you. This is a very old topic that shouldn't even be necessary to discuss anymore. No MK's have ever needed this move to ****. It's not happening. Get over it.

And stop referencing my name about my opinion over it. I never said it was uber broken when it first came out. I haven't changed my stance on it at all. My only thoughts were, "It's more than likely going to get banned, so I'm not even going to worry about it. I'm just going to continue getting better."

EDIT: Also DMG, I dont ever recall discussing this subject with you. Stop lying.

 

[chesterr01]

NORMALLY, it's not a great attack. Out of IDC it suddenly becomes an AMAZING attack.


Why?

*a lot of stuff*

So basically, it's a great attack, that you can release whenever you want, you can't punish the approach, and the other guy is invincible while setting it up...

I don't know why we are still discussing this. Just the fact that you can get invincible should be enough.

If this is unbanned, basically ANY time you're on stage and you're cornered or in a bad position, press down+B. Then take your time, figure out what you're gonna do, ask the TO to get you a coke so you don't get dehydrated (well, water is better imo).

If you can tell me why we should allow metaknight to become invincible whenever he wants and make sense, then you win. Otherwise I don't see this being unbanned.

Can't wait to see Mew2King go IDC and get hit like, 4 times every game.

 

[metaXzero]

I don't understand why you want this stupid technique so bad. It's not even that necessary in battle. It's a half-decent move at best when not used to stall and really doesn't benefit in a drastic way that half of the rest of your moveset cannot. You always have a better option.

Regardless, SBR isn't going to unban it, and good luck trying to get all the TO's to do it for you. This is a very old topic that shouldn't even be necessary to discuss anymore. No MK's have ever needed this move to ****. It's not happening. Get over it.

And stop referencing my name about my opinion over it. I never said it was uber broken when it first came out. I haven't changed my stance on it at all. My only thoughts were, "It's more than likely going to get banned, so I'm not even going to worry about it. I'm just going to continue getting better."

EDIT: Also DMG, I dont ever recall discussing this subject with you. Stop lying.

Basically Dojo, you don't believe IDC is overpowered. You think it's half-decent in other applications, Since you don't believe IDC is such a great deal, why keep it banned when what DID make it a big deal (Stalling) isn't there anymore. We don't ban things for being "unneccessary" or "useless". We ban things for being broken and overcentralizing. And we can't all agree on just how great or not great IDC is in theory as been shown.

So basically, it's a great attack, that you can release whenever you want, you can't punish the approach, and the other guy is invincible while setting it up...

I don't know why we are still discussing this. Just the fact that you can get invincible should be enough.

If this is unbanned, basically ANY time you're on stage and you're cornered or in a bad position, press down+B. Then take your time, figure out what you're gonna do, ask the TO to get you a coke so you don't get dehydrated (well, water is better imo).

If you can tell me why we should allow metaknight to become invincible whenever he wants and make sense, then you win. Otherwise I don't see this being unbanned.

Can't wait to see Mew2King go IDC and get hit like, 4 times every game.

In practice, it's "perfect approach" quality hasn't been proven as true. If anything, I could currently argue it has been proven as false since the only in-practice results of IDC (2 tourny vids) show swordgard punishing attempted approaches with IDC. Is IDC still the perfect approach when the only in-practice evidence says no?

Also last time I checked, M2K thought IDC was too difficult to do AND apply effieciently. Of course, that was several months ago. Currently, all I can tell is that he agrees that with the stalling problem gone, their is no reason to keep it banned.

 

[chesterr01]

Conflict of interest, as M2K plays MK. If this is unbanned, he will go in training mode and realize how easy it is. It's not harder than pillaring, you're flicking a stick ffs.

EDIT: Even if you only have two vids showing it, if you do unban, it's gonna get a lot more visible, people are gonna practice it, and then we will have to ban it again because it's gonna become impossible to gauge when someone is abusing the tech. It will also push sissy MK players (not all of them are) to camp and stretch the length of tournaments. Like, I don't see what good it would do to unban this.

 

[ThatGuy]

It will cause Nintendo to create a balance patch, that not only fixes this glitch but also removes tripping!

...

 

[metaXzero]

Conflict of interest, as M2K plays MK. If this is unbanned, he will go in training mode and realize how easy it is. It's not harder than pillaring, you're flicking a stick ffs.

EDIT: Even if you only have two vids showing it, if you do unban, it's gonna get a lot more visible, people are gonna practice it, and then we will have to ban it again because it's gonna become impossible to gauge when someone is abusing the tech. It will also push sissy MK players (not all of them are) to camp and stretch the length of tournaments. Like, I don't see what good it would do to unban this.

You act like M2K didn't even TRY and IDC and just said "it's too hard to do AND apply". He had to have tried to do it at first before coming to his initial conclusion months ago. His thoughts of doing and applying IDC NOW though are currently unknown. Heck, he could just end up ignoring IDC completely and continue playing MK as he normally does...

Don't say "it's gonna" or "it will". We don't know for sure. MAYBE IDC will show itself as broken and overcentralizing, or MAYBE we will continue to get results like those 2 vids. We won't know unless it's allowed in tournys again.

And what idiot MKs are going to drag out matches with IDC (remember, THEY LOSE if the match timer hits 0)...

 

[Melomaniacal]

Wait, I'm confused... so using IDC for 7 minutes on a 8 minute timer is perfectly fine according to this?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wait, I'm confused... so using IDC for 7 minutes on a 8 minute timer is perfectly fine according to this?

Yes.

But you're pretty much guaranteed a match loss if you do that, so why would you?

 

[metaXzero]

Wait, I'm confused... so using IDC for 7 minutes on a 8 minute timer is perfectly fine according to this?

-______-
Sure. You can do that. Have fun losing matches because you made it MUCH easier for your opponent to camp you to the timer!

*sigh* Why do people STILL think stalling with this will win a match?

 

[Melomaniacal]

Yes.

But you're pretty much guaranteed a match loss if you do that, so why would you?

Well... I still want to know exactly how long constitutes stalling. The way this was worded made it sound like... if I get a stock lead on you, I can IDC until there's 5 seconds left, I win.

-______-
Sure. You can do that. Have fun losing matches because you made it MUCH easier for your opponent to camp you to the timer!

*sigh* Why do people STILL think stalling with this will win a match?

If you have a stock lead... why doesn't it? Am I missing something here? My brain is a little fried at the moment, so I apologize if I'm missing something extremely obvious.

 

[metaXzero]

Well... I still want to know exactly how long constitutes stalling. The way this was worded made it sound like... if I get a stock lead on you, I can IDC until there's 5 seconds left, I win.

If you use IDC AT ALL, you'll lose the match if the match timer hits zero. Using IDC means you HAVE to KO all your opponent's stock to win.

 

[Melomaniacal]

If you use IDC AT ALL, you'll lose the match if the match timer hits zero. Using IDC means you HAVE to KO all your opponent's stock to win.

Okay, got it. The wording made it sound like if you are IN the IDC when the timer runs out, then you lose. My bad

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well... I still want to know exactly how long constitutes stalling. The way this was worded made it sound like... if I get a stock lead on you, I can IDC until there's 5 seconds left, I win.

Check the first page.


Under the rule being presented in lieu of an IDC ban, if you use IDC and the timer runs out, you lose, period.


Basically, for the purposes of the timer, an MK that uses IDC is considered as always being behind in percent, regardless of the actual stock/percent total.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Check the first page.


Under the rule being presented in lieu of an IDC ban, if you use IDC and the timer runs out, you lose, period.


Basically, for the purposes of the timer, an MK that uses IDC is considered as always being behind in percent, regardless of the actual stock/percent total.

Got it, my above post clears that up.
Well, then my only gripe with it is that the timer won't run out that much (especially against a MK), so this just seems like another buff for a character that is already arguably broken.
Just saying, a match will end with someone dying more often than the timer running out.

 

[Vilt]

This is a good proposal. I mean I use the IDC in friendlies just for quicker movement, tech chasing, and I hate the fact that I can't do that in tourneys. I like. Dunno if it will be unbanned but I will definately back you up on this.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Got it, my above post clears that up.
Well, then my only gripe with it is that the timer won't run out that much (especially against a MK), so this just seems like another buff for a character that is already arguably broken.
Just saying, a match will end with someone dying more often than the timer running out.

It's not intended to limit the tech, it's intended to eliminate stalling with this tech but be as nonintrusive as possible.


Furthermore, it doesn't "buff" the character, by including this in the game the designers buffed the character. It was banned for it's stalling potential however the OP believes that it should not be banned as is hoping that it's unbanned so it can be "proven" by results one way or another, due to the fact that if something isn't broken, it shouldn't be banned.

 

[metaXzero]

This is a good proposal. I mean I use the IDC in friendlies just for quicker movement, tech chasing, and I hate the fact that I can't do that in tourneys. I like. Dunno if it will be unbanned but I will definately back you up on this.

Appreciate the support. You are one of the few people here that not only disregarded all that theoretical crap being tossed around this thread to keep the ban, you also didn't say "your rule is unfair to MKs". You simply looked at how the rule takes care of the MAIN concern of IDC (stalling).

If only more members of the SBR were like you...

 

[swordgard]

Appreciate the support. You are one of the few people here that not only disregarded all that theoretical crap being tossed around this thread to keep the ban, you also didn't say "your rule is unfair to MKs". You simply looked at how the rule takes care of the MAIN concern of IDC (stalling).

If only more members of the SBR were like you...

Seriously, stop MODIFYING what im saying. I told you either its broken or its pretty much useless. Dont say that I SAID that its not worth taking the risk with your rule, what im saying is that EVEN with your rule, its completely broken.

Heres what your doing currently.

We say point A.
You talk about point B completely disregarding what we said and adressing something else.
We correct you on point B.
You say we said something about point A where we you change what we said to the opposite of what it means.

This is not arguing, this is trolling. Address my list of like 10 points as to why its broken, then wel talk.

 

[metaXzero]

Seriously, stop MODIFYING what im saying. I told you either its broken or its pretty much useless. Dont say that I SAID that its not worth taking the risk with your rule, what im saying is that EVEN with your rule, its completely broken.

Heres what your doing currently.

We say point A.
You talk about point B completely disregarding what we said and adressing something else.
We correct you on point B.
You say we said something about point A where we you change what we said to the opposite of what it means.

This is not arguing, this is trolling. Address my list of like 10 points as to why its broken, then wel talk.

IDC can turn out to be either one of 3 (not 2) things.

1. IDC is utterly broken and overcentralizing. Need for ban is THEN established.
2. IDC is utterly useless and pointless. The ban is not warranted.
3. IDC is useful, but not broken. It helps MK, but it's not a great enough boost to be ban-worthy.

Those are the 3 possible outcomes of allowing IDC back into tourneys. We CANNOT just theorycraft and assume it WILL lead to whichever outcome we think it will lead to (especially considering what little evidence we DO have and how it points to #2 (MAYBE 3)). Nor should we keep it banned under subjective things like "fairness".

 

[ShadowLink84]

If you use IDC AT ALL, you'll lose the match if the match timer hits zero. Using IDC means you HAVE to KO all your opponent's stock to win.

Maybe I accidentally hit down b.
Or maybe i just activated it to avoid your attack.
Why do I have to KO all your stoc?
The game goes by who has least amount of damage/most stocks.

 

[metaXzero]

Maybe I accidentally hit down b.
Or maybe i just activated it to avoid your attack.
Why do I have to KO all your stoc?
The game goes by who has least amount of damage/most stocks.

In Melee, if an IC player "accidentally" uses the freeze glitch, what do we do? Do we seriously go "Since you said you accidently used it, you won't be DQed"? How about under the current IDC ban if someone "accidently" uses IDC (or under your example, use regular DC)? If someone loses by accidently SDing, do we actually consider that maybe the SD party shouldn't lose?

You as the player are responsible for what your character does. If you "accidently" use a banned technique, you get DQ regardless. So if you "accidently" use IDC under my proposal, you must defeat your opponent before timer runs out.

Though, it should be easy to tell when someone is DCing or IDCing. The loud C-stick tapping and the clear extension of the Cape's time length (extending the DC slightly unnoticeably slightly is a moot point...

 

[Dojo]

1. IDC is utterly broken and overcentralizing. Need for ban is THEN established.

Stalling. I know what you're going to say, I'll go more on this in a sec.

2. IDC is utterly useless and pointless. The ban is not warranted.[/QUOTE]

Probably. Maybe not completely, but he more than likely will have a better way to do something all the time. He's got so many options it's crazy.

3. IDC is useful, but not broken. It helps MK, but it's not a great enough boost to be ban-worthy.
[/QUOTE]

As if we actually even needed help. >.>

Maybe I accidentally hit down b.
Or maybe i just activated it to avoid your attack.
Why do I have to KO all your stoc?
The game goes by who has least amount of damage/most stocks.

Lol. I don't think accidentally and IDC go together.

But I see where you're coming. The fact that if somebody did try to use this, and the other person then begins stalling for time, on some stages it'd be **** near impossible to take all of their stock off before time. The fact that the other player can stall out the rest of match kind of dwindles the effect of not being able to stall with this. The other person just has to run and live from there. Not a strong rep for competitive gaming.

The basic rundown is that it even though it's not unstoppable if you use the rule you've considered for it, it still promotes stalling from the other player. Then another issue for excessive stalling after this will come up, and we don't need that as a community.

I don't understand why you're so intent on trying to bring this back. I understand it may not be completely broken and it's uses are all just theorycraft, but having to guideline rules for one technique for a character that really doesn't even need it, while still promoting strategies that aren't in the best interest of a growing competitive scene is just too much reason not to return it. We've been doing fine without it, and that's probably how it's going to stay.

 

[Deleted member]

If only more members of the SBR were like you...

I see you're not trying to win us over with friendship.

 

[Hylian]

A couple things:

I can do this for over 30 seconds at a time easily. Several people know I can as well.

As dojo said, if a MK uses this in his first stock he pretty much loses. Many characters can just dodge and run away from MK for every one of their stocks not even trying to hurt MK and still win. I can think of several ways I could do this with GW and a MK would not be able to take my 3 stocks in 8 minutes.

This tactics removes momentum from matches, something that is pretty ****ing important in brawl espcially with characters like Diddy.

This allows MK to avoid all stage hazards and any portion of a stage he doesn't want to be on.
This makes having positional advantage vs MK impossible.

Above all, this rule would be extremly hard to enforce.

We are not unbanning it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I see you're not trying to win us over with friendship.

Unfortunately, civility has never exactly been a strong point of these boards.

*sigh*

A couple things:

I can do this for over 30 seconds at a time easily. Several people know I can as well.

As dojo said, if a MK uses this in his first stock he pretty much loses. Many characters can just dodge and run away from MK for every one of their stocks not even trying to hurt MK and still win. I can think of several ways I could do this with GW and a MK would not be able to take my 3 stocks in 8 minutes.

Can do it for minutes at a time (can reliably hold it for 2 minutes, maxed out at minutes and 24 seconds), but more importantly I can hit anywhere within a range equal to the distance between the top platform of battlefield, and the central platform of battlefield with the out of cloak attack. Or just appear there if I feel like it.

Note that this is a straight line from where MK is, not just parallel to the stage.

It's also fast enough to punish things like rolls and spot-dodges if you time it right, or pretty much anything that has lag with vulnerability of any sort.

It's precise enough to dodge hitboxes from jab combos (which are probably the only reasonable defensive option against this).

Spoiler

Granted, I probably can't do this right now, I abandoned the tech when it was banned and am out of practice because of that, I can probably get back up to speed pretty quickly though.

I hope you can see the implications of this, the raw power of being able to have unlimited time to attack out of position that's basically invincible.


Believe me, with this technique in place, other people stalling out MK will be the least of our worries.


The fact that MK will have 80-20 match-ups against the entire rest of the cast (being generous) is far more glaring an issue.



It's just too fast, too precise, and too safe (effectively).

 

[metaXzero]

@Dojo. For the "accidental use" part, see my post above yours.

To your point of "it promotes stalling by the non-MKs", some guys like adumbrodeus and argue that the strengths of IDC can beatout a campy opponent. And besides MK himself, no other character has a unbeatable way to survive against MK for an entire 8 minute match. So as it stands, their is no "it WILL be a problem". If it does become a problem, then we can discuss it. But for now, their is no "WILL".

@Hylian. HOW would this be hard to enforce? This isn't "if you use IDC ?.? number of times" or "if you hold IDC for *?.?* number of seconds". We don't need a bunch of judges observing matches. All we need to know is if IDC was used AT ALL (LIKE the current ban).

At the current time, keeping it banned is banning it with theory. WE DON'T DO THAT. Especially when what little "in practice" evidence says it may not be as broken as originally thought.


@adumbrodeus. Please don't say "fact" or "it will". Their are 3 possibilities for IDC in practice. Theory does not always translate into practice. That's why we shouldn't use it as a reason to keep something banned.

I see you're not trying to win us over with friendship.

With everyone repeatedly trying to use theory to as a legitimate reason to keep this banned, it's kinda hard to wanna try...