#UltimateDLCSoMale: The Female DLC Character Discussion

[KatKit]

You're defending the issue (patriarchal institutions) while simultaneously pointing out problems it (and other factors like class, e.g.) causes for men, and downplaying how much it has historically screwed women over. Feminism, the advocacy for Women's Rights, also addresses all of your concerns. It is about equality; it isn't only about women.

But this subject is lowkey off topic.

 

[Deleted member]

Uh, since when is gender an issue around here...?

It has been ever since we got 4 male-coded characters on the Fighters Pass, thank you.

 

[Tino]

It has been ever since we got 4 male-coded characters on the Fighters Pass, thank you.

Again, how is that an issue?

 

[Deleted member]

Again, how is that an issue?

It's an issue because it means that the female demographic is being left out. You could say that "they're not chosen" but in truth, the DLC being all-male would seriously tick off some people, like me!

 

[1FC0]

You're defending the issue (patriarchal institutions) while simultaneously pointing out problems it (and other factors like class, e.g.) causes for men,

I am not defending anything. Just pointing out some properties of many patriarchies which people here seem to not know about.

Besides that, there would be nothing wrong with having a balanced view. It often happens that things that are worth defending have downsides as well.

and downplaying how much it has historically screwed women over.

You may understand women's issues, which I agree exist and are worth focusing on.

All that I said about women's issues is that they exist and are worth focusing on.
Meanwhile, people here have claimed that men's issues do not exist at all. Which is why I responded about men's issues.

Feminism, the advocacy for Women's Rights, also addresses all of your concerns. It is about equality; it isn't only about women.

Men's issues are not any more my concern than women's issues are. I just talked about mostly men's issues as a response to the fact that the one I responded to seemed to know about women's issues already while being misinformed about men's issues.

I do not know of any significant way in which feminism has helped with men's issues. Either way it should not, it's called feminism for good reason. It's meant for people who want to focus on women's issues. And true to it's name, feminism only focuses on women's issues as far as I know. No one can focus on all issues, people will have to pick and choose. It's good to have a place where people can choose to focus on women's issues.


Either way I have much more to say about patriarchies since in my opinion the notion that they are all just a conspiracy of men to oppress women is an incorrect simplification. But this is not the thread to go on about that at length, so I'll keep it at this.

 

[Deleted member]

I do not know of any significant way in which feminism has helped with men's issues. Either way it should not, it's called feminism for good reason. It's meant for people who want to focus on women's issues. And true to it's name, feminism only focuses on women's issues as far as I know. No one can focus on all issues, people will have to pick and choose. It's good to have a place where people can choose to focus on women's issues.

Feminism seeks for women empowerment. It's not lal the time that men have to do all the dirty work, y'know.

 

[Tino]

It's an issue because it means that the female demographic is being left out. You could say that "they're not chosen" but in truth, the DLC being all-male would seriously tick off some people, like me!

You make it sound like they got something against females or whatever. I mean was there anything, like an article of sorts, that explicitly says that the Fighters Pass will be "all males only"?

 

[Ice-N-Space]

You make it sound like they got something against females or whatever. I mean was there anything, like an article of sorts, that explicitly says that the Fighters Pass will be "all males only"?

Sounds like they want more females. Smash is really the only game I've played that has so much male DLC.

 

[Teeb147]

You make it sound like they got something against females or whatever. I mean was there anything, like an article of sorts, that explicitly says that the Fighters Pass will be "all males only"?

Something against? Or is it being apathetic? Or maybe just having a focus not giving it consideration.
Whatever the case, it doesn't stop some people from feeling a call for bringing more.. Not everyone may think it's a big thing, but some do, and I think that's the point here, to bring attention for people who want there to be more females brought in.

 

[Wigglerman]

Sounds like they want more females. Smash is really the only game I've played that has so much male DLC.

Smash only has 'so much male dlc' because it's hardly had DLC to begin with. Smash Ultimate alone has only had this one set of DLC with more on that way. That's a terrible 'metric' to claim that Smash has only ever had male dominated DLC. If we factor in Smash 4's DLC, we had Mewtwo (genderless), Lucas, Roy, Cloud, Corrin (Male & Female) and Bayonetta.

So in Smash 4 we had 4 Males and 2 Females. That's typical of DLC in fighting games, I'd say. Some passes can shift to one gender lean to the other but generally is male oriented as most fighting games tend to have more male fighters than women in general. So we could say Smash 4 DLC is pretty average as far as the 'industry standard' goes (Using quotes there as there is no standard. It's whatever characters people wanna put in at that time).

So in Smash Ultimate we have Plant (genderless), Joker, Hero, Banjo & Kazooie (I'll always count this is male and female, because they are. Claiming 'it's just a male' is silly. They're both the character, not just Banjo and discredits Kazooie entirely and is silly), and now Terry. That puts the DLC pretty close to being in line with how Smash 4's gender ratio was. It's very possible the next character is female or like Corrin is a male/female protag with skin swaps.


We still have unspecified amounts of characters coming to. So I feel this 'all male bad' movement is premature since we have literally no idea how many more fighters we're getting, what their gender will be (if they even have one) and so on.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I've always thought that the Smash Bros design philosophy was flawed though because protagonists aren't always the most well-known or popular characters in their games and their attacks can be generic as hell compared to supporting characters.

I think it's less the trend being prioritising main protagonists as much as it is prioritising the poster boys/girls and icons first in terms for unrepresented franchises and games (Sans isn't the main character of Undertale, but he is the face of it and the most requested for Smash, which is why he was a DLC Mii costume) which makes sense, since these types of characters would be the ones that represents what their games and franchises fundamentally are about. Also, when it comes to unrepresented franchises, these tend to be the ones that brings the most hype factor for Smash. Of course, that's only talking about unrepresented franchises, since this type of arguments doesn't really matter for additional characters from represented franchises.

And it prevents ridiculous exclusions akin to Mega Man in both Marvel vs Capcom 3 and its update so I'm fine with this trend.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Sounds like they want more females. Smash is really the only game I've played that has so much male DLC.

First world problems for crying out loud.

Ultimate is also the only fighting game, that I know of, that included every single DLC character from a previous iteration in the base game without charging you extra. Most fighting games nowadays tend to sell you some veterans alongside a few newcomers. Like Wigglerman said, focusing on the male metric is very silly.

 

[Wigglerman]

First world problems, for crying out loud.

Mmm. Though as I said in my post, Smash's DLC since 4 is pretty par for the course, though Ultimate may be a 'fully male' DLC for round 1 of releases (If people want to state kazooie 'doesn't count' when...she does). Street Fighter 5's DLC has had 4 males, 2 females in each season cept for the recent which was 2/2 since they didn't seem to do a full season this year (Unless they plan to fix that with their announcements this month and next month).

MK 11 only has Sindel as their female DLC rep for their first Kombat Pass.

Tekken 7 has had a few season passes since console release which had skewed in male favor DLC as well.

I know Smash is different from traditional fighting games but most fighting game rosters are majority male cast members. Honestly, most video games are male protagonist featured (Historically, but has become less so over current years). And in the case of Smash they've been pulling characters from franchises that, typically or currently, feature male mascots or protagonists.

I wouldn't call the DLC for Smash Ultimate sexist by any means. While I wont deny having more iconic female cast members being added to DLC, I don't really feel it's a 'must'. My first thought is whomever makes the DLC cut is fun first and foremost. It'll be interesting to see who or what makes it for Fighter 5 and beyond, however many characters that may be.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Someone made a point earlier stating that the most wanted female fighters are humanoid. If I were to have my way, I would like to have Amaterasu from Okami in the game, who is ironically a non-humanoid female contrasting with most people's choices here.

 

[Deleted member]

As much as I agree with some of the posts here, yes. Most fighting games have male-dominant DLC, though they did have their share of female characters. It's not exactly the ratio that matters, its more or less the representation. I'm fine with the Fighters Pass but I will be upset if it was completely male-oriented.

Wanting female characters is technically the same as wanting a company to get repped (SNK in my case, now we have Terry)

 

[Wigglerman]

Someone made a point earlier stating that the most wanted female fighters are humanoid. If I were to have my way, I would like to have Amaterasu from Okami in the game, who is ironically a non-humanoid female contrasting with most people's choices here.

I'm a big supporter of non humans/oids in general and would love to see what could be done with them in Smash's environment that's generally less restrictive than traditional fighting games. Amaterasu was cool and fun in MVC3, so what other cool stuff could she do in a far more free flowing environment like Smash? Would be more than interesting to find out.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm a big supporter of non humans/oids in general and would love to see what could be done with them in Smash's environment that's generally less restrictive than traditional fighting games. Amaterasu was cool and fun in MVC3, so what other cool stuff could she do in a far more free flowing environment like Smash? Would be more than interesting to find out.

Amaterasu can do soooo much in Smash I don't know what tech will the devs use for her Smash moveset.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I'm a big supporter of non humans/oids in general and would love to see what could be done with them in Smash's environment that's generally less restrictive than traditional fighting games. Amaterasu was cool and fun in MVC3, so what other cool stuff could she do in a far more free flowing environment like Smash? Would be more than interesting to find out.

Amaterasu could air dash using sprouts, so perhaps have that for an Up B or a long Air Dodge so she can move in the air. Down B could make her change weapons like she did in Marvel.

 

[MaddaD]

Sounds like they want more females. Smash is really the only game I've played that has so much male DLC.

It's not really a Smash centric issue, thankfully. Most fighting games' roster are usually dominated by males just mainly due to being the demographic that plays this genre.

Tekken 7's current DLC is split 3 males, 2 Females
SFV's DLC split is 9 males, 6 females (counting Poison)
MK12 has only Sindel as DLC

I'd love Ammy or any other female rep, but I wouldn't outright start boycotting passes because they won't get in. Seems kind of silly but to each their own.

 

[Troykv]

I guess I should have expected this thread to turn into these political discussions eventually.

I personally believe that women definitely deserve representation in media, but it can't be forced (Several franchises pretty much died for trying to force females into the protag role in a pre-established universe without a lot of substance). Of course, forcing stuff isn't really a problem with DLC.

 

[Deleted member]

I personally believe that women definitely deserve representation in media, but it can't be forced (Several franchises pretty much died for trying to force females into the protag role in a pre-established universe without a lot of substance). Of course, forcing stuff isn't really a problem with DLC.

I'm curious. Name one franchise that did that.

 

[Troykv]

I'm curious. Name one franchise that did that.

Ghostbusters 2016 was hated by criticts and the general public; oh and bombed. Terminator Dark Fate had a very bad opening release despite don't actually being a bad movie because of how the movie was advertised and focused so much in the female main characters (this wouldn't be usually a problem if wasn't for the fact Terminator movies are pretty much seen as Arnold's movies). Also many western comics had bombed for various reasons, the fact most of them are trying to go "woke" without substance only does more harm.

 

[Deleted member]

Ghostbusters 2016 was hated by criticts and the general public; oh and bombed. Terminator Dark Fate had a very bad opening release despite don't actually being a bad movie because of how the movie was advertised and focused so much in the female main characters (this wouldn't be usually a problem if wasn't for the fact Terminator movies are pretty much seen as Arnold's movies). Also many western comics had bombed for various reasons, the fact most of them are trying to go "woke" without substance only does more harm.

Hmm...those are movies that could have done better, but held back by too much focus. Too much of everything is bad after all.

 

[Troykv]

Hmm...those are movies that could have done better, but held back by too much focus. Too much of everything is bad after all.

I agree, that is the reason I said "force females" instead of just "adding females".

I would also talk about the whole Star Wars Sequels thing and Rey, but that is it's own can of worms; I don't know if I'd properly explain it.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree, that is the reason I said "force females" instead of just "adding females".

I would also talk about the whole Star Wars Sequels thing and Rey, but that is it's own can of worms; I don't know if I'd properly explain it.

Adding females is okay, but forcing females isn't quite interesting to say the least.

 

[Momotsuki]

Speaking as a dude, it makes me happy to see that I'm not alone in being a tad frustrated by the lack of female characters in the Fighters Pass thus far. I think a great way to fix that would be with Reimu, who I do think is rather likely! (But not a lock by any means.) And not only would Reimu be female, she's also got an enormous amount of potential to make a really, really fun fighter to play. But, you know, I guess there's always the next wave if F5 ends up being yet another dude. There're no excuses then, though!

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I believe the reason more male characters tend to get chosen, is because there are just more male protagonists. I can't think of any situations where a female supporting character is more well known than the protagonist. I think the real issue for adding female characters is simply picking out characters who aren't already in represented franchises/companies. I can only think of like 3 female characters who don't already have some sort of corporate representation and are the leading character of the franchise.

Lara Croft
Reimu Hakurei
Shantae

I'd be fine with some franchises adding more reps, but at some point it gets a bit much. Fire Emblem, for instance, I feel has more than enough characters already. I wouldn't be averse to seeing Dixie Kong though, as she does technically have her own adventure.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I agree, that is the reason I said "force females" instead of just "adding females".

I would also talk about the whole Star Wars Sequels thing and Rey, but that is it's own can of worms; I don't know if I'd properly explain it.

I think that most business should stay away from the political debate spectrum if they want to do well. I'm glad that Nintendo has mostly averted this by simply not dwelving into such topics. After all, videogames are meant to be a distraction from the hurdles of the real world.

 

[Night Gale]

Here are some other characters I would like to see.

Velvet Crowe
Blaze Fielding
Reiko Nagase from Ridge Racer
Ahri
Velvet from Odin Sphere
Yumi or Asuka from Senran Kagura
A2
Aya Brea
Miriam from Bloodstained
Shiori Fujisaki
Veran from Oracle of Ages
Sarah Louise Kerrigan
Emily Kaldwin from Dishonored
Selvaria Bles
Elizabeth from Bioshock
Zero from Dakengard 3
Faith Conners
Reimu
Nina Williams
Mitsuru, Aigis, or Labrys from Persona 3/4A
Katrielle Layton
Sarah Bryant
T-elos as a KOS-MOS echo; I don't care about KOS-MOS as much but I need her in to make T-elos a possibility
Lara Croft
Sophitia
Valentine from Skullgirls

 

[Ice-N-Space]

It's not really a Smash centric issue, thankfully. Most fighting games' roster are usually dominated by males just mainly due to being the demographic that plays this genre.

Tekken 7's current DLC is split 3 males, 2 Females
SFV's DLC split is 9 males, 6 females (counting Poison)
MK12 has only Sindel as DLC

I'd love Ammy or any other female rep, but I wouldn't outright start boycotting passes because they won't get in. Seems kind of silly but to each their own.

Talking about games like Mario Kart 8 and Crash Team Racing those game have amazing female DLC.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Talking about games like Mario Kart 8 and Crash Team Racing those game have amazing female DLC.

You are seriously overstating the presence of Isabelle, Cat Peach and Villager (with male and female alts). "Amazing" isn't a word I would use to describe their inclusion, and one of them is even an alt of an existing character which I thought was reviled. And they were just a portion of a package that provided new vehicles and tracks. Plus, a Mario Kart racer =/= a fighter from Smash.

And who talks like that anyways? "Man, that female DLC was incredible, wasn't it?", "Mario Kart 8 had amazing female DLC". Mario Kart 8 had good DLC. Period. Nobody ever feels the need to specify male or female when talking about it.

 

[KatKit]

If they were gonna use an example, Soul Calibur 6 was a better one lol. Tira, Amy, 2B, and Cassandra are the 1st season pass characters, and Hilde and Haohmaru kick off season 2, respectively. Code names in the files hint at Setsuka and Yun-seong (or Hwang); the former is the most requested who isn't in the game yet, despite the latter appearing earlier. That would be 6 women and 2 men as DLC, with a 1:1 ratio of guest characters. The base roster is predominately male but the DLC is skewed in the opposite direction. Though it's just really good DLC in general; it was successful enough to create a then unplanned season 2.

FExL works as well. Free character DLC is perfect DLC, and majority of the additional characters just so happen to be women as well. It also includes Terry, so that's awesome.

Same goes for Blazblue Cross Tag Battle. And every single one of the DLC characters made entirely from scratch (Yumi, Neo, Yang, Blake) in that game are all women.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

What would your reaction be in a hypothetical scenario where the second round of DLC characters were Waluigi, Geno, Bandanna Dee, Dixie Kong and Twintelle?

 

[Khao]

What bothers me about this discussion is that it's implying that there's an issue with Smash selection process when it's ultimately not.

Smash is merely a reflection of the gaming industry. If there's not enough female fighters, that's because game developers are not making enough of them.

And yes, there's probably over a dozen of good options for a female fighter that would be iconic, unique, fun to play and interesting. But when you compare that to the hundreds of male fighters who meet the same requirements, it's not hard to understand why more of them are being chosen, when more of them exist in the first place.

What I'm saying is, don't blame Smash for something that is a problem in the gaming industry as a whole. The conversation would make sense to me if Smash was an original franchise with original characters, but that's not the case. The question of whether or not Smash needs more female fighters is misplaced; Smash doesn't need more female characters, the AAA gaming industry does. The fact is, at the end of the day, the vast majority of popular franchises have a male protagonist, and it's not Smash's responsability to correct that fact even if we recognize it's an issue.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

What would your reaction be in a hypothetical scenario where the second round of DLC characters were Waluigi, Geno, Bandanna Dee, Dixie Kong and Twintelle?

Bandana Dee is my most wanted, so fine by me. I don't see a problem with this lineup.

 

[MaddaD]

What would your reaction be in a hypothetical scenario where the second round of DLC characters were Waluigi, Geno, Bandanna Dee, Dixie Kong and Twintelle?

Waluigi: Depends on the kit. General "Eh"
Geno: "Ooooh"
Bandana Dee: Probably an uninterested glance
Dixie Kong: Not really interested
Twintelle: sigh and unzip my pants

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

What would your reaction be in a hypothetical scenario where the second round of DLC characters were Waluigi, Geno, Bandanna Dee, Dixie Kong and Twintelle?

I would love to have Dixie, Waluigi and Dee. Neutral towards the other two.

Sorry for the second post, I swear it was a glitch or something.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

What would your reaction be in a hypothetical scenario where the second round of DLC characters were Waluigi, Geno, Bandanna Dee, Dixie Kong and Twintelle?

I would love to have Dixie, Waluigi and Dee. Neutral towards the other two.

 

[Deleted member]

What would your reaction be in a hypothetical scenario where the second round of DLC characters were Waluigi, Geno, Bandanna Dee, Dixie Kong and Twintelle?

I highly doubt it, considering how their aiming for more 3rd Parties, but I'd say i'll let Dixie and Twintelle slide.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

What would your reaction be in a hypothetical scenario where the second round of DLC characters were Waluigi, Geno, Bandanna Dee, Dixie Kong and Twintelle?

Twintelle is a really random choice, but everyone else would be great.