Mushroomguy12
Smash Hero
And Chun-Li and Krystal had more to bring to the table than American Ryu and Evil Fox?
But hey, use the clone argument when it suits you.
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But hey, use the clone argument when it suits you.
KatKit
Smash Lord
Ken being THE echo is cool, and I'm so glad he made it in (he was a most wanted of mine), but Sakura was definitely a missed echo opportunity because she would've brought more content for a comparable amount of work. She'd bring more things from Street Fighter Alpha and onward (her theme isn't in the game; that alone would've brought at least one song outside of SF2), and maybe even Rival School content, if Capcom played ball. Unlike Ken, she'd bring a different design and archetype to Smash: school girl. Not only that, she's the most popular Street Fighter character in general, consistently placing first in official global character polls for years now.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
I mained her myself in Street Fighter Alpha 2 and 3, and I gotta say that most of her kit is different from the average shotos. Personal opinion.
Spongeboob
Smash Ace
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- Switch FC
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Again, like |poyo| (and
Mogisthelioma
) said, Evil Fox was chosen over Girl Fox due to time constraints, and American Ryu was chosen instead of Chinese Ryu because American Ryu was literally "American Ryu" for a good while. Maybe they could've done away with Chinese Ryu rather than No-Hat Terry, but not with Girl Fox due to the circumstances.But hey, use "Hat Ken" when it suits you.
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Deleted member
Guest
You're seriously confusing me at this point.
Mushroomguy12
Smash Hero
Who's Chinese Ryu? Chun-Li? I thought your whole argument was that she's way too different from Ryu to be an echo? I never even brought up Terry, what are you even talking about at this point?Again, like |poyo| (and
But hey, use "Hat Ken" when it suits you.
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Deleted member
Guest
I was thinking the same thing.
Mushroomguy12
Smash Hero
D
Deleted member
Guest
Gave it a follow right during the moment I saw it.
Mogisthelioma
Smash Master
Because King K. Rool was more popular than Dixie Kong was. He was a ballot choice. He beat Dixie Kong. Neither his popularity nor the decision to add him to the game were driven by gender in any way. What's that? A male character got in over a female character for non gender related reasons? Unthinkable!
I'm not sure what your point has been in this string of posts. Are you implying that they compared both King K. Rool and Dixie Kong, and decided that the former was better fit for Smash because one was male and the other was female? First of all, the devs don't compare potential newcomers to one another and decide who is the best pick. Development on each Smash game begins with most of the roster already decided via the Project Plan--typically how just about every game ever works. Second, even if they did compare potential newcomers, K. Rool was added in the game due to his overwhelming popularity, and had nothing to do with gender.
This was my point in my original post. People seem to be freaking out that there are male newcomers when there could have been female newcomers from the same series in their stead, when Smash has never made an issue of diversity or representation in the past. It. Doesn't. Matter. I am completely indifferent as to whether any new character is a boy or a girl, and I don't understand why so many people are making a big deal about it.
TL;DR: King K. Rool got in the game because he was more popular. That shouldn't be hard to understand. Gender had nothing to do with it. This is starting to get ridiculous.
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1FC0
Smash Lord
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- Aug 21, 2013
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- 1,828
What about Daisy who got added instead of Waluigi? Or Lucina who got added instead of Chrom? Or Bayonetta who got added instead of K. Rool, despite the fact that K. Rool was most likely more popular?
Was that also because Nintendo hates women? Or do we just ignore it when things like this happen?
Mushroomguy12
Smash Hero
Daisy and Lucina are not less popular than Waluigi and Chrom. Daisy is more prominent than Waluigi, appearing in Mario Kart 7 and being in a main platformer game while Waluigi is confined to spinoffs. Lucina got added alongside default male Robin and to this day remains the only default female Fire Emblem character, and is currently the main mascot of the series. It also seems like there was FAR more screaming from the fanbase about Daisy getting in over Waluigi compared to the three situations I brought up for DK, Star Fox, and Street Fighter, despite there being far more justification, with even the Washington Post and numerous fanarts and fan animations bawling to the heavens about Waluigi.
K. Rool and Bayonetta are from different series and have nothing to do with each other.
And I never said Nintendo hates women, Mr. Strawman.
You're original post was boogeymanning about "diversity picks" and the HORRIBLE possibility of female characters getting in over a more "deserving" male. I was merely pointing out situations in which the opposite happened, and you and the rest of the pack jumped on pretending I wanted those characters removed from the game.
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KatKit
Smash Lord
Hold up, don't compare Bayonetta's popularity with K. Rool. Honestly, I think the ballot was mostly used as a suggestion box for characters for Ultimate (but Nintendo couldn't say that), but hypothetically speaking, his fanbase votes would've been split up by other DK characters in the franchise. And he's not as important in the grand scheme of things. I mean, can you imagine if Bowser dipped for that many years?! Bayonetta had the advantage of being the titular character of her franchise, starring in a more recent game that was critically acclaimed, being in a new IP that became a Nintendo exclusive, and in one of the best action games in general. She's the spiritual successor to Dante, who was going through a bit of an identity crisis at the time. Bayonetta was a pipe dream, so of course Smash speculators were more vocal about 1st party characters.
I can understand that, amiga, because she's weaker, more technical, combo heavy, and rushdown centric (and that's even reflected in her variation of Ryu's special moves). Capcom did a wonderful job designing a character that shares some of the same attacks/animations with another one while making them feel nothing alike. Although they're somewhat similar visually and fundamentally, she's definitely different from the average Shoto clone (especially depending on the game). I suck with Ryu, but I've mained Sakura in pretty much every Street Fighter I own. But for all intents and purposes, she's about as much of a Ryu echo as Smash Ken is, IMO. Maybe less so (I think she's classified as a 'semi-clone') than Ken, but not by much (because gameplay-wise, she honestly has more in common with Ken than with Ryu lol). They probably could've made it work, is all I'm saying.
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1FC0
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2013
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- 1,828
So then Nintendo is willing to add popular characters even if they're female.
And Chrom got reduced to a Final Smash. The point is that Nintendo is willing to add females over males if they have reason to. Not that they're adding females just because they're female.
Besides competing in the ballot for a spot.
I was exaggerating. I really think that your point is that they added Wolf over Krystal and K. Rool over Dixie because of their genders. Which still begs the question, why could they not do that for Chrom, Waluigi, and K. Rool?
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Mogisthelioma
Smash Master
I'm impressed, that's definitely one way to twist my words that I've never seen before.
My original post never implied any of that. It was meant to target the idea that we have a quota of female fighters to fill, and that by not filling that quota there will be an inevitable outcry from the fanbase where in reality the opposite is most likely true. I used Master Chief as an example to demonstrate how frustrated I would be if he was nominated but turned down in favor of a female diversity pick solely for the reason of diversity and nothing else of significance, but in reality I would be mad if he got turned down for any arguably "less deserving" character, whether they were added to fill a female quota or for some other arguably less important reason than pleasing the fans. Had that been the topic of the thread, I would have used multiple examples. But my goal was to point out the irony of that thinking, not to "boogeyman" the idea of a diversity pick being added over an arguably more deserving male character.
You pointed out zero situations in which the opposite happened, because all three examples you used had nothing to do with diversity picks. The first two you used (Krystal/Wolf and Chun-Li/Ken) were flawed because the latter fighters took less development to create than the former, and in Ken's situation Sakurai practically implied in the November direct that Ken belonged as an echo. The third situation you used (K. Rool vs Dixie Kong) was again pointless since the reason K. Rool was added was purely based on popularity. Again, him being male and Dixie Kong being female had no sway in the decision to add K. Rool in the game. They probably never even considered adding Dixie Kong in the first place. K. Rool beat Dixie Kong in the ballot and won his spot in Smash fair an square. He was added to please the fans, which has been exactly my point all along (Hypothetically speaking, if the situation was in reverse and Dixie Kong was more popular and thus added and you were arguing that her inclusion was solely for diversity, I would defend her using the same argument I am now--that she was added simply to please the most fans).
Don't get me wrong--I love the idea of having more female characters in Smash. I consider myself a feminist. But in the days leading up to now I saw the thread lean more and more toward an attitude of attacking the idea of not having a female newcomer as the fifth DLC fighter, and I felt forced to write my post in retaliation since that's simply flawed logic. We should all want who we want to be in Smash, and it's great to see this much support for a female newcomer, but if the fifth fighter turns out to be a male nobody should get mad or frustrated about it simply because they wanted the fighter to be the opposite gender. That only leads to meaningless twitter wars and tublr rants that no one wants to see.
Mushroomguy12
Smash Hero
Nah, my point was that contrary to the crying boogeyman of putting a feeeeemale in justttt for their gennnderrr, there have been plenty of examples to the other end.
And so was every single other character. Still doesn't mean they had anything to do with each other, with one being 1st Party and the other being 3rd Party. Both Chrom and K. Rool were added in the end anyway.
And so far there have been zero situations in which the first happened, so what are you worried about?
I'm tired of this, I feel there have been too many misunderstanding and strawmans of each other's argument so I'll just end it here. I'm not going to boycott anything if Fighter #5 is a male (though I would prefer it to be a fighter I like either way), so I don't want you thinking I'm in that camp, but I would like more female characters in Smash and I see nothing wrong with wanting more.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
I've read through the entire thing, and all I can say is that the arguments you all pointed out are valid and reasonable.
Mushroomguy12
, yes, there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a female character in Smash. Though unfortunately, that is not the case for me. My word is my word, and I'll stay true with it. If I were to vent in any of the public threads about the hypothetical lack of female fighters in the pass, it wouldn't exactly sound like me. I'd say my argument in a calm rant, and nothing else. As for the boycott, yes, it was I who gave it thought. I am staying with my word that I will boycott the pass if it did not have any women. That is all.
Mogisthelioma
, I appreciate the effort you put in that post. However, this thread is not exactly attacking the idea of not having a female fighter. It's anyone's fair game. If I were hostile, I would've took to Smashboards to vent my rage with a bajillion memes, gifs, and many more stuff that would clearly stain the thread. However, if the last fighter were male, I would be mad, and I would be frustrated, but I'd keep it to a handful of people. Let them riot on Twitter, tumblr, or whatever social media website. It's them expressing their freedom of speech, and nothing more, nothing less.
Ryu Myuutsu
Smash Champion
I'm not exactly known for being subtle, so here goes: This is just is getting sillier and sillier.
The thread is pretty much seeking to inject a sociopolitical agenda into the Fighter Pass. Nintendo and Sakurai shouldn't be bending themselves backwards to please every overly sensitive consumer out there. One can make a decent argument for each inclusion in the pass so far; characters who have iconography and whose franchises have left a mark in the video game industry one way or another. DQ, KOF, Banjo Kazooie are legendary on their own. The fighters' gender was probably the least relevant aspect when it came to deciding their inclusion.
I notice that the thread has in its title #UltimateDLCSoMale. Come. on. This idea of diversity seems misguided. It seems to seek equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity. Meanwhile at Nintendo HQ, they will be revealing their fifth character soon without even giving threads like this the time of the day, as they rightfully shouldn't. It also seems arrogant and narcissistic to want to inject western ideologies to a Japanese developed game using the Grammies as an example. There are far more worthwhile hills to die on.
The thread is pretty much seeking to inject a sociopolitical agenda into the Fighter Pass. Nintendo and Sakurai shouldn't be bending themselves backwards to please every overly sensitive consumer out there. One can make a decent argument for each inclusion in the pass so far; characters who have iconography and whose franchises have left a mark in the video game industry one way or another. DQ, KOF, Banjo Kazooie are legendary on their own. The fighters' gender was probably the least relevant aspect when it came to deciding their inclusion.
I notice that the thread has in its title #UltimateDLCSoMale. Come. on. This idea of diversity seems misguided. It seems to seek equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity. Meanwhile at Nintendo HQ, they will be revealing their fifth character soon without even giving threads like this the time of the day, as they rightfully shouldn't. It also seems arrogant and narcissistic to want to inject western ideologies to a Japanese developed game using the Grammies as an example. There are far more worthwhile hills to die on.
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Deleted member
Guest
This is not a sociopolitical agenda. This is about representation. However, to factor in consumers who want the Fighters Pass, some would prefer to buy characters they can easily identify.
It's not silly. think of other fighting games and their ratio when it comes to female DLC.
I'm still staying, and if Fighter 5 is male then I'm still boycotting the pass. It's my decision, not yours. You're just making me look bad, honestly.
If it's so silly and not worth discussing, then why even bother posting in this thread? Isn't your time spend better not writing out several long paragraphs on how silly it is to discuss this topic?
1FC0
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2013
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- 1,828
I do not think it's that silly, it's just an opinion. It's like how I have a pretty long list of robots which I'd like to have in Smash. Though it's Nintendo's right to not do what we want and keep the amount of females/robots in the roster low. Of course, boycotting by not spending our money on DLC is our right (I'm not going to do it though).
You call 2 four-liners + 1 one-liner "several long paragraphs"? That's overstating it a bit…
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D
Deleted member
Guest
You can keep the females low yet you can't exclude them from the additional content.
Mogisthelioma
Smash Master
See, this is the point I've been trying to make. Gender has not been, and probably will never be, a significant factor when it comes to deciding a newcomer. Despite 3 1/2 of the newcomers so far being male, all of them have good reasons to be in the game. Yes, it makes the idea of the final newcomer being female all the more appealing, but that doesn't insert a quota for having a female character at all. A lot of posts on this thread suggest that there needs to be a female newcomer in the fighters' pass or there will be a huge fallout if there isn't a female DLC newcomer--as far as I'm concerned, that's BS. Although I do expect the final fighter to be female, simply out of speculation, I think that all of the fighters have been chosen regardless of gender and all future newcomers will be considered the same. I'll say it again--I have no problem with having a female newcomer in the game. My problem is this thread's attitude toward gender as being the key reason in deciding who the next newcomer is.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Since I started this thread, are you also pointing that criticism to me?
Mogisthelioma
Smash Master
My criticism has never been aimed at any person here. My criticism targets the attitudes that suggest there is a female quota that needs to be filled (and related attitudes).
Ryu Myuutsu
Smash Champion
To exercise my freedom of speech and say that is silly and not worth it. I thought it was self explanatory.
There is also the fact that nonsense can't be left unchecked.
You are right. It's your decision and not mine. Doesn't make the reasoning behind it less silly though.
I can think of about 100 far more noble reasons why people may want to boycott something.
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Coolboy
Smash Journeyman
eh..don't you think you should at least wait until the second fighter pass is done? already thinking of boycotting seem a bit silly to me.
that is why i am still positive even after the last fighter of this pass would be revealed..because i know there is a 2nd pass coming so i got hope for the characters i would love to see in smash!
there are both female and male characters i would love to see in smash and if the 2nd pass turns out to have 2/3 female characters then there wasn't even a point for you to boycot at the first place..
if you are going to demand female characters, then Sakurai is probably going to pull a Sakurai again,
i still remember that whole demanding Waluigi fiasco and the reason why we probably got that plant instead>~>
Mushroomguy12
Smash Hero
Almost all of the base newcomer lineup for Ultimate was specifically based on fan requests.
The base roster, which probably initially included the Plant because it had a Palutena’s Guidance, was decided long before the actual unveiling of Ultimate. T’is why ARMS and Xenoblade 2 characters couldn’t make it in despite being popular at the time of Ultimate’s initial reveal.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Despite fan requests, I do hope that Sakurai gets lucky and pulls out a female for once. It's what you get when you still have hope.
Mogisthelioma
Smash Master
This. I know it's off topic, but it's crazy that today we're just shy of two years since the November direct and people still argue that a Xenoblade 2 rep got totally screwed of a spot in Smash, when a Xenoblade 2 rep had a 0% chance of being in the game at all.
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Deleted member
Guest
Of course. The timeframe was probably why we didn't get the Octolings as part of the roster despite Splatoon 2 hitting the waves.
And besides, they either have the next game or the future DLC to look forward to.
Michael the Spikester
Smash Obsessed
Not Hat Ken! Trucker Ken!
D
Deleted member
Guest
Coming soon to the next season of Ice Road Truckers this 2020!
I don't want Sakurai to include female characters in the roster simply because Smash Ultimate lacks DLC female representation. All I want is historically iconic characters from old classic franchises to join regardless of their sex.
My personal picks:
NINTENDO
Dixie Kong (Diddy's Kong Quest)
Impa (Ocarina of Time)
Princess Ruto (Ocarina of Time)
Nabooru (Ocarina of Time)
Princess Midna (Twilight Princess)
Miyu and Fay (Star Fox 2)
Krystal (Star Fox Adventures)
3RD PARTY
Jill Valentine (Resident Evil - Capcom)
Lara Croft (Tomb Raider - Eidos)
B. Orchid (Killer Instinct - Rare)
Kasumi (Dead Or Alive - Koei Tecmo)
Jenny the Bat (Bloady Roar - Hudson Soft)
My personal picks:
NINTENDO
Dixie Kong (Diddy's Kong Quest)
Impa (Ocarina of Time)
Princess Ruto (Ocarina of Time)
Nabooru (Ocarina of Time)
Princess Midna (Twilight Princess)
Miyu and Fay (Star Fox 2)
Krystal (Star Fox Adventures)
3RD PARTY
Jill Valentine (Resident Evil - Capcom)
Lara Croft (Tomb Raider - Eidos)
B. Orchid (Killer Instinct - Rare)
Kasumi (Dead Or Alive - Koei Tecmo)
Jenny the Bat (Bloady Roar - Hudson Soft)
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Deleted member
Guest
Yeah...but you do know representation is a deal. I mean, you want people to relate to characters they identify themselves with. The same could be said of color, age, etc.
Sex is quite a big deal if you ask me.
TheYungLink
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2018
- Messages
- 1,454
Just felt like linking this old post in this thread, for some mysterious reason. I wonder what it could be? Who knows.
Can people stop coming into this thread assuming that wanting more female characters is bad? Because the thought that some people want female characters without any other merits besides being female is an extremely disingenuous one. It's very condescending to women, and to people besides women who would also like to see more female characters.
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Deleted member
Guest
It's a shame to think about it every now and then.
Neoxon
Smash Apprentice
I'd honestly prefer Skyward Sword Impa, namely because we already have a ton of OoT representation with Young Link (who should have been Majora's Mask Young Link) & Ganondorf. I'd also throw in Twintelle, Urbosa, Elma, Ring Fit Adventurer, & 2B, but that's just me.
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People relate to characters because they have fond memories playing their games when they were kids.
Among the things kids care about, is having fun and video games, not sex, age, color or religion.
Representation in Smash is based on gaming franchises, not on diversity.
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