#UltimateDLCSoMale: The Female DLC Character Discussion

[Mogisthelioma]

But wouldn’t Officer Howard & Byleth be male by default?

Wii Fit Trainer and Inkling are female by default. They could pull something off. There should be an option that lets you decide whether or not you want the male or female option to be the default choice.

 

[1FC0]

There should be an option that lets you decide whether or not you want the male or female option to be the default choice.

The option should be like Smash 4 where it just remembers which alt was most recently played and automatically selects that one.

 

[MaddaD]

I do agree that a new female rep in the fighter pass would be nice, but it's not desperately needed. Since Smash 4, female reps have been plentiful and each from some pretty big names in games from the recent years. I'm kind of disappointed Mai didn't make the cut from KOF but Terry is nice too (I hope for a Terri alt costume but it's not likely).

My Most Wanted FemReps
Jill from Drill Dozer - The daughter of a legendary diamond thief and her drilling robobot. I loved this game on my GBA and played it all the time when I was free in lunch. If she got in somehow, I'd buy like 5 more copies of Ultimate.

Urbosa from BotW - Ooof, ouch. My ovaries. Please crush my skull until it's just dust, Mommy.

Ring Fit Girl - I'd die for an echo of Wii Fit. She has a pretty neat design and could pull off some crazy ideas moveset wise. Any series with body building dragons in it is pretty hype for me.

Tron Bonne - She was my main for a few MvC games, mainly because of her minions and how well animated they are. I'm also a big sucker for robots.

 

[Neoxon]

Wii Fit Trainer and Inkling are female by default. They could pull something off. There should be an option that lets you decide whether or not you want the male or female option to be the default choice.

Because WFT & Inkling are primarily represented as female elsewhere. Astral Chain & Three Houses defaults to the male versions of Officer Howard & Byleth respectively. And as shown by Corrin staying male by default in Ultimate, Sakurai can be weirdly stubborn about stuff like this.

Regarding Byleth, I’m kinda torn regarding Female Byleth since I hate her design with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns. But I’d imagine that Sakurai would modify the design a bit.

 

[Deleted member]

Regarding Byleth, I’m kinda torn regarding Female Byleth since I hate her design with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns. But I’d imagine that Sakurai would modify the design a bit

I respect your opinion, though her design seems okay to me. Currently playing 3 Houses, and I'm using the Female Avatar. The only practical reason to use her imo is Jeannie Tirado's voice acting (as much as I like Android 21).

 

[Neoxon]

I respect your opinion, though her design seems okay to me. Currently playing 3 Houses, and I'm using the Female Avatar. The only practical reason to use her imo is Jeannie Tirado's voice acting (as much as I like Android 21).

Her design just seems sexualized for no reason. It was disappointing to see after Female Robin & Corrin had designs close to their male counterparts (Female Corrin had the flaw of her needlessly-exposed thighs, which Sakurai thankfully corrected in Smash).

 

[Deleted member]

Her design just seems sexualized for no reason. It was disappointing to see after Female Robin & Corrin had designs close to their male counterparts (Female Corrin had the flaw of her needlessly-exposed thighs, which Sakurai thankfully corrected in Smash).

I think so too.

I do agree that a new female rep in the fighter pass would be nice, but it's not desperately needed. Since Smash 4, female reps have been plentiful and each from some pretty big names in games from the recent years. I'm kind of disappointed Mai didn't make the cut from KOF but Terry is nice too (I hope for a Terri alt costume but it's not likely).

Terry is the mascot of the game. Think of them as Ryu and Chun Li. Sakurai goes for the mascot first. Assuming that, Terry would be the logical inclusion though Mai would not hurt to be in the next game.

 

[Impa4Smash]

But wouldn’t Officer Howard & Byleth be male by default?

So what?

 

[Neoxon]

So what?

If I’m not mistaken, the argument is for characters who are primarily female, something that Officer Howard & Byleth aren’t.

Terry is the mascot of the game. Think of them as Ryu and Chun Li. Sakurai goes for the mascot first. Assuming that, Terry would be the logical inclusion though Mai would not hurt to be in the next game.

I personally would have preferred Nakoruru, but I understand why they went with Terry.

 

[Deleted member]

So what?

Primarily, they are male-coded despite the presence of their female avatars.

 

[Impa4Smash]

If I’m not mistaken, the argument is for characters who are primarily female, something that Officer Howard & Byleth aren’t.

Primarily, they are male-coded despite the presence of their female avatars.

Well, personally, i don't care. I play as female Robin, and I don't mind that male Robin is the default.

Besides, female Wii Fit is the default, so it's entirely possible that Byleth or Akira could be female by default. It seems like a non problem either way to me.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, personally, i don't care. I play as female Robin, and I don't mind that male Robin is the default.

Besides, female Wii Fit is the default, so it's entirely possible that Byleth or Akira could be female by default.

It mostly depends.

Remember, Hero didn't get female alts, so that's a thing worth noting.

 

[Impa4Smash]

It mostly depends.

Remember, Hero didn't get female alts, so that's a thing worth noting.

That's a weird situation though that could've been decided by Square. Sakurai is pretty good about adding both options when available, and Byleth at least is Nintendo owned. Platinum I'm sure would approve both genders as well.

 

[Deleted member]

That's a weird situation though that could've been decided by Square. Sakurai is pretty good about adding both options when available, and Byleth at least is Nintendo owned. Platinum I'm sure would approve both genders as well.

If so, then I do hope it's the case

 

[Neoxon]

Well, personally, i don't care. I play as female Robin, and I don't mind that male Robin is the default.

Besides, female Wii Fit is the default, so it's entirely possible that Byleth or Akira could be female by default. It seems like a non problem either way to me.

As an aside, Akira Howard is the twin you don’t play as. The one who would get in Smash would be Officer Howard, the player character. Going back to the point of this response, as I said earlier...

Defaults matter. They’re the ones with the most marketing, they’re the ones most recognize instantly, & (unless you get lucky like Female Corrin did) they’re the ones that get an Amiibo.

We’d definitely get both. But given how Sakurai approaches gender-choice characters, the male versions would be the default in Smash since they’re the defaults in their respective games. Would I prefer Female Officer Howard as the default, certainly. But I don’t expect it to happen.

 

[Deleted member]

As an aside, Akira Howard is the twin you don’t play as. The one who would get in Smash would be Officer Howard, the player character. Going back to the point of this response, as I said earlier...

We’d definitely get both. But given how Sakurai approaches gender-choice characters, the male versions would be the default in Smash since they’re the defaults in their respective games. Would I prefer Female Officer Howard as the default, certainly. But I don’t expect it to happen.

Agree.

 

[Neoxon]

If so, then I do hope it's the case

To be fair, Square-Enix is known to be stingy regarding Smash. But the fact that Sakurai seemingly didn’t bother to try to get the female variants for Hero is disappointing.

 

[Impa4Smash]

To be fair, Square-Enix is known to be stingy regarding Smash. But the fact that Sakurai seemingly didn’t bother to try to get the female variants for Hero is disappointing.

How do we know he didn’t? Not disagreeing with you, just genuinely curious if there’s a source on that

 

[Neoxon]

How do we know he didn’t? Not disagreeing with you, just genuinely curious if there’s a source on that

When talking about the negotiations that led to Hero in Smash, not once were the Heroines mentioned. They even mentioned the DQV Hero, who was later scrapped.

 

[Deleted member]

When talking about the negotiations that led to Hero in Smash, not once were the Heroines mentioned. They even mentioned the DQV Hero, who was later scrapped.

In short, it was more to the programming time.

 

[Neoxon]

In short, it was more to the programming time.

Perhaps, but one would think that they would be brought up if that was the case.

Though let me make one thing clear to anyone else reading this thread, I’m not out here trying to call Sakurai sexist or anything like that. I just feel like he (& Nintendo as a whole) should be a bit more aware of the current lack of women in the game & at least try to improve the situation.

 

[Deleted member]

Perhaps, but one would think that they would be brought up if that was the case.

Though let me make one thing clear to anyone else reading this thread, I’m not out here trying to call Sakurai sexist or anything like that. I just feel like he & Nintendo as a whole should be a bit more aware of the current lack of women in the game & at least try to improve the situation.

That is sadly what I feel. Despite Nintendo offering a male dominant DLC pack for Smash 4, we at least had Bayonetta. Now, Ultimate needs a female DLC more than ever.

I'll flip if Sakurai says during a future Direct, "However, we are alacking a female representative". To me, getting a female rep is a virtual demand at this point.

Sadly, despite the fact that Nintendo got female representation right in their other games, the same could not be said for Smash.

 

[Neoxon]

That is sadly what I feel. Despite Nintendo offering a male dominant DLC pack for Smash 4, we at least had Bayonetta. Now, Ultimate needs a female DLC more than ever.

I'll flip if Sakurai says during a future Direct, "However, we are alacking a female representative". To me, getting a female rep is a virtual demand at this point.

Sadly, despite the fact that Nintendo got female representation right in their other games, the same could not be said for Smash.

But even then, it took the Smash Ballot for us to get Bayonetta, witch can be a discussion in of itself.

It’s honestly a shame, as some of the new blood at Nintendo seem to be a bit more progressive regarding such matters (see Splatoon & ARMS). But at least more people on social media are becoming aware of Smash’s lack of women (even Jon from GameXplain brought it up), so hopefully positive change can come from this in the near future.

 

[Deleted member]

But even then, it took the Smash Ballot for us to get Bayonetta, witch can be a discussion in of itself.

It’s honestly a shame, as some of the new blood at Nintendo seem to be a bit more progressive regarding such matters (see Splatoon & ARMS). But at least more people on social media are becoming aware of Smash’s lack of women (even Jon from GameXplain brought it up), so hopefully positive change can come from this in the near future.

Wait, can you link to me what Jon said?

There's gonna be a riot on Twitter if the last fighter is indeed male =(

 

[Spongeboob]

Wuh-oh! Here comes a ****ty opinion!

Spoiler: A bad opinion

Oh god I've got Gobi's Valley stuck in my head.
I have no problems with female characters, and some of the characters I play (Lucina and Inkling) or would like in Smash (Byleth and Arle) are females (or in Byleth's case, have a female variant). With that being said, however, what I do have a problem with is a character getting in to meet some sort of quota ("Oh, we need a girl in the Fighters Pass because there's not enought wameens in the game!" or "Muh shooter reps!" "Muh Bamco reps!") To me, that's just straight up tokenism. (Here's a Wikipedia article on that.) (For example, let's say that the devs add a Mexican character (T. Hawk, Manny Calavera, etc.) to Smash for the sake of hispanic representation. As I am a Mexican, I'd be pretty offended by that because my ethnicity is being reduced to a character.) None of the male characters fill any quota whatsoever as far as I can tell (or any characters in Smash so far, spare Greninja and Incineroar who are shillmons but hey, they're fun). I'm not saying that "to have representation" is the only reason to have more female fighters (or any fighters, really), but I am saying that's a sexist (and to be frank, delusional) reason to have them. When it comes to thinking about who we want in Smash, I think we should ignore race, gender, and maybe even genre entirely.

I've got a question, actually. Why does representation matter? Do you really think that Sakurai and the devs were thinking about representation when they chose Dark Samus and/or Isabelle?

Oh, and I still think Arle is likely for #5. Also, I think Byleth would make for a nice moveset.

Wii Fit Trainer and Inkling are female by default. They could pull something off. There should be an option that lets you decide whether or not you want the male or female option to be the default choice.

I'll do you one better and have the ability to choose a default for every fighter. Also, I don't think it would matter which gender's the default as long as there is the option to swap genders, right?

To be fair, Square-Enix is known to be stingy regarding Smash. But the fact that Sakurai seemingly didn’t bother to try to get the female variants for Hero is disappointing.

Not all of the Heroes had a female variant; notably Luminary, who was from the most recent mainline Dragon Quest game at the time.

Primarily, they are male-coded despite the presence of their female avatars.

So I guess Inkling and Wii Fit Trainer are female-coded?

There's gonna be a riot on Twitter if the last fighter is indeed male =(

It depends on the character. Doomguy I could see triggering a lot of liberals (but then again, the fans outweigh the h8ers), but there's not a lot fighting against Sora (other than le Disney boogeyman) or Lloyd, both of which, unlike Doomguy, have the fan demand to back up their inclusions.

 

[Deleted member]

I've got a question, actually. Why does representation matter? Do you really think that Sakurai and the devs were thinking about representation when they chose Dark Samus and/or Isabelle?

Because people should buy media they can identify themselves with.

It depends on the character. Doomguy I could see triggering a lot of liberals (but then again, the fans outweigh the h8ers), but there's not a lot fighting against Sora (other than le Disney boogeyman) or Lloyd, both of which, unlike Doomguy, have the fan demand to back up their inclusions

Liberals like me.

Sora and Lloyd...they have strong guardian angels on their back.

 

[Spongeboob]

Because people should buy media they can identify themselves with.

You don't have to be the same gender or ethnicity to understand a character. Anyone could relate to the frustrations of characters like Squidward or Aggretsuko working in dead-end jobs.

Sora and Lloyd...they have strong guardian angels on their back.

Remember the Banjo vs Steve fiasco? That **** was golden.

 

[Deleted member]

You don't have to be the same gender or ethnicity to understand a character. Anyone could relate to the frustrations of characters like Squidward or Aggretsuko working in dead-end jobs

While it may be true for some, it may be different for others.

 

[1FC0]

Sakurai can be weirdly stubborn about stuff like this.

I think that Sakurai likes to have the defaults that best fit the character. I like attention to details, so I would not want to botch a character even in the slightest to get more token default females. To me that's like gender swapping Mario just to get more females in the game, albeit much less extreme.

Just look at Red and how he being the default with Leaf serving as an alt to him mirrors how his playable appearances work in his newer games. It's like the character select screen is mirroring the start of a Pokemon journey. I could almost hear Oak asking me if I am a boy or a girl.

Or take R.O.B., his default is the same R.O.B. that was sold in whatever region the game copy is from. That's a cool detail that I really like and much better than what SSBB did (i.e. just making Famicom R.O.B. the default).

But even then, it took the Smash Ballot for us to get Bayonetta, witch can be a discussion in of itself.

That's not known. Nintendo was talking about "realizable" characters. It could just have been that they did not consider King K. Rool, Ridley, Geno, or any other character which was much more talked about than Bayonetta and outperformed Bayonetta in community polls "realizable". Some even say that Nintendo started developing Bayonetta before the results of the ballot were even known to them and used the real results to decide on newcomers for SSBU.

Either way I voted Registeel and am sad to not see him in. He would have made a fine secondary to R.O.B..

 

[Deleted member]

I think that Sakurai likes to have the defaults that best fit the character. I like attention to details, so I would not want to botch a character even in the slightest to get more token default females. To me that's like gender swapping Mario just to get more females in the game, albeit much less extreme.

Just look at Red and how he being the default with Leaf serving as an alt to him mirrors how his playable appearances work in his newer games. It's like the character select screen is mirroring the start of a Pokemon journey. I could almost hear Oak asking me if I am a boy or a girl.

Or take R.O.B., his default is the same R.O.B. that was sold in whatever region the game copy is from. That's a cool detail that I really like and much better than what SSBB did (i.e. just making Famicom R.O.B. the default)

Tbh that's easily negotiable.

 

[Neoxon]

Wait, can you link to me what Jon said?

There's gonna be a riot on Twitter if the last fighter is indeed male =(

To address the "gender shouldn't matter" comments - in theory, sure.

Unfortunately it does matter, there are over 80 characters in the roster & only 15 are women (no alts). For a game about a diverse array of game characters coming together it sure could do with more variety

— Jon Cartwright (@JonComms) October 12, 2019

He’s actually made a series of tweets on the subject, but this is the main one relevant to our situation.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Here's my wanted list of female chaaracters:

1. Krystal - She is my favorite Star Fox character and she would bring a totally different and unique moveset with her staff. She would be able to pull off some spells and crazy stuff with her staff.

2. Dixie Kong - She's my favorite Kong who would be unique with her moveset being all around her hair. She has much greater potential to be her own unique fighter than just a Echo of Diddy. Plus her inclusion would make the DK representation finally feel complete.

3. Tron Bonne - She's a quirky, intelligent, teen who creates robots, mechs, and machines. She would be a very unique fighter being in a mech which, we really don't have besides perhaps Bowser Jr. if you even consider the clown car to be a mech.

4. Shantae - A half genie who would bring a VERY unique moveset transforming into different animals like a elephant, monkey, mermaid, crap, ect. She also has some spells off her sleeve to top it off. No other fighter would be like her.

5. Chun-Li - My favorite Street Fighter character who's moveset would mostly be about the kicks. Ms. thighs please take my breath away darling.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

To address the "gender shouldn't matter" comments - in theory, sure.

Unfortunately it does matter, there are over 80 characters in the roster & only 15 are women (no alts). For a game about a diverse array of game characters coming together it sure could do with more variety

— Jon Cartwright (@JonComms) October 12, 2019

He’s actually made a series of tweets on the subject, but this is the main one relevant to our situation.

Listen, I don't want to sound rude or sexist by saying this, but that tweet is honestly taking it a bit too far. I came to this thread to express my support for various female characters and more diversity in Smash. But at the end of the day, if the last DLC fighter (of the first pack) is either male, female, or nonbinary, It won't really matter. Smash was never a game based on showcasing diversity since it's goal as a non-canonical crossover series is to please as many fans of different games as possible, not to promote a diversity agenda.

If pleasing the most fans means picking a male or female character, I know I would certainly pick the most popular character regardless of gender. I'm 100% sure that when Sakurai was given his list of characters to choose from Nintendo, he picked as many popular characters as possible regardless of their gender or sexual identity. And if that means the last DLC character is female, so be it. I know I would be more hyped for Bandana Dee or Master Chied than any other character, male or female, and them both being male has nothing to do with it.

To add to this, If the last fighter turns out to be female/nonbanary/whatever and it's revealed that a more popular choice was available instead, and the DLC fighter was chosen purely as a diversity pick, I'm also 100% sure there will be a much bigger riot on twitter than if the last fighter is simply male. I have no problem with whatever the final character identifies as, but if I find out that one of my most wanted characters was also considered for the game but was instead beat by a diversity pick, I would be pissed.

The vibe I'm getting from this thread as of late is that we have to have a female character as the fifth DLC fighter to fill a certain quota. I have two problems with this: One, there is not quota to fill, and two, if there was, it would be a stupid quota. Characters should never be chosen on the basis of basic aspects such as gender, race, or ethnicity. That would, in effect, be reducing the significance of the more important traits of the character (personality, opinion, feats, etc.) in favor of physical identity.

While I am all in favor of having more female characters in Smash, it should not be a requirement, nor should it be a problem if there isn't a female newcomer.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

If pleasing the most fans means picking a male or female character, I know I would certainly pick the most popular character regardless of gender. I'm 100% sure that when Sakurai was given his list of characters to choose from Nintendo, he picked as many popular characters as possible regardless of their gender or sexual identity. And if that means the last DLC character is female, so be it. I know I would be more hyped for Bandana Dee or Master Chied than any other character, male or female, and them both being male has nothing to do with it.

Krystal was more popular than Wolf at Brawl's release and Chun Li is more popular than Ken, yet in both cases the less popular male was chosen over the more popular female. Welp, so much for your shoving diversity picks theory.

 

[KatKit]

Because WFT & Inkling are primarily represented as female elsewhere. Astral Chain & Three Houses defaults to the male versions of Officer Howard & Byleth respectively. And as shown by Corrin staying male by default in Ultimate, Sakurai can be weirdly stubborn about stuff like this.

I just want to point out that the Howard twins are a weird case because of how completely interchangeable they are. They both are and aren't the same character, because the other exists independently of them. They were showcased/promoted alongside one another equally (even so far as to speak lines together in the debut trailer at the same time). It's actually a coin toss as to who'd be the default. If we based it off of official trailers (like the E3 trailer) for example, Akane was usually shown off first during gameplay segments (and they focused on her more often, even so far as being featured without her brother on the thumbnails more) than him, but there are instances where the spotlight was slightly in his favor, too.

For Smash, male tends to be the default, so it's probably a safer bet, but for the Howard twins, it can legitimately go either way.

 

[|poyo|]

Krystal was more popular than Wolf at Brawl's release and Chun Li is more popular than Ken, yet in both cases the less popular male was chosen over the more popular female. Welp, so much for your shoving diversity picks theory.

According to a Sakurai interview, Wolf barely made the roster due to time constrainsts and also was heavily demanded and popular. They used Fox and Falco model as a base, where for Krystal, they would have to create a new one from scratch. So it was always Wolf or nothing.

For Ken, he is a echo, so we can determine that he was included because they used Ryu model as a base, similar to Wolf here.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Krystal was more popular than Wolf at Brawl's release and Chun Li is more popular than Ken, yet in both cases the less popular male was chosen over the more popular female. Welp, so much for your shoving diversity picks theory.

Those can both be considered exceptions for the same reason. Krystal was originally planned for Brawl, but they switched her out for Wolf "last minute" since due to time constraints. Wolf's moveset was built using Fox's as a preexisting model, hence the similarities in their designs in Brawl. Krystal was not turned down in favor of Wolf for any gender related reason.

Ken is an echo fighter. The echo fighter. Similar to Krystal, adding Chin-Li as a fighter would require making a completely new moveset, which would have taken up way more time than Ken would have. Don't forget that in a game with an emphasis on clones (echoes) as a new mechanic, not having Ken as an echo of Ryu would probably feel out of place for many. Ken was added largely due to his position as Ryu's "echo," which was stated in the November direct. Again, this was not a gender/diversity related issue.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

According to a Sakurai interview, Wolf barely made the roster due to time constrainsts and also was heavily demanded and popular. They used Fox and Falco model as a base, where for Krystal, they would have to create a new one from scratch. So it was always Wolf or nothing.

For Ken, he is a echo, so we can determine that he was included because they used Ryu model as a base, similar to Wolf here.

Those can both be considered exceptions for the same reason. Krystal was originally planned for Brawl, but they switched her out for Wolf "last minute" since due to time constraints. Wolf's moveset was built using Fox's as a preexisting model, hence the similarities in their designs in Brawl. Krystal was not turned down in favor of Wolf for any gender related reason.

Ken is an echo fighter. The echo fighter. Similar to Krystal, adding Chin-Li as a fighter would require making a completely new moveset, which would have taken up way more time than Ken would have. Don't forget that in a game with an emphasis on clones (echoes) as a new mechanic, not having Ken as an echo of Ryu would probably feel out of place for many. Ken was added largely due to his position as Ryu's "echo," which was stated in the November direct. Again, this was not a gender/diversity related issue.

And yet, the completely unique male King K. Rool was chosen over the relatively simpler semiclone female Dixie Kong. Funny, they didn't seem to have a problem with time constraints and echos there.

Literally the complete opposite situation, yet the male still gets chosen first.

 

[Spongeboob]

And yet, the completely unique male King K. Rool was chosen over the relatively simpler semiclone female Dixie Kong. Funny, they didn't seem to have a problem with time constraints and echos there.

Probably because he was highly requested and had more to bring to the table than yet another Kong?

 

[|poyo|]

And yet, the completely unique male King K. Rool was chosen over the relatively simpler semiclone female Dixie Kong. Funny, they didn't seem to have a problem with time constraints and echos there.

Literally the complete opposite situation, yet the male still gets chosen first.

Like Spongeboob said, in his column right here, King K. Rool was extremely popular, which would have helped his chances.
Also, I've seen some people (not you) saying that Dixie should be a clone but I just can't see it, she play so differently in DKC2. That's why I always choosed her, lol.