Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3: Fate of Two Worlds

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

If he's in I'm fine with Iceman taking no-little chip damage from Energy attacks but holy **** tone the chip damage he deals down.

 

[Rikana]

I've played MvC and MvC2 before. I had loads of fun playing the game but I haven't touched it in years. I never played competitively because it would be too hard for me to catch up.

I'm kind of neutral on the different button mappings. I can see why MvC2 vets would be frustrated. Its like how I was very hyped up for Brawl only to find out it wasn't my type of game at all nor was it even a Smash Bros. game to me anymore comparing it to Melee and Smash64. MvC3 is gonna be successful regardless but the community might just be a split like how Melee and Brawl is.

I'm definitely going to purchase a copy though. I played TvC and I enjoy it. There seems to be a lot of competitive games that have been dumbed down as of lately though.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

The thing about TvC is that L/M/H attacks were universal one set attacks, meaning that Punches/Kicks were not 3 separate buttons so the commands could not overlap, where in MvC we've always had Punches and Kicks with motions that overlapped but done with Kicks or Punches.

Like to see what to do here, especially with this "Exchange" button.



Also in the new Famitsu scans, Silver Surfer's Silhouette can be seen. I hope that the story revolves around Galactus!

 

[Mic_128]

Also in the new Famitsu scans, Silver Surfer's Silhouette can be seen. I hope that the story revolves around Galactus!

Galactus wants a sandwich so he slams three worlds together, bringing the surprise announcment of Marvel vs Capcom vs ____!

 

[Big-Cat]

Galactus wants a sandwich so he slams three worlds together, bringing the surprise announcment of Marvel vs Capcom vs ____!

Kellog's!


10cornflakes

 

[Gates]

Kellog's!


10cornflakes

Toucan Sam has insane loops.

 

[ZMan]

tony the tiger's GGGGGGGREAT anti-air assist is broken

 

[Heartz♥]

Haha. That is hilarious.

 

[OneWingSephiroth]

I'm not excited at all with the button setup, yes, I am retired from competitive gaming, however I still feel don't understand why the need for such a drastic change in how you would play MvC that the button layouts make my head spin.

I can think of multiple scenarios of what could devalue (Strider for example...the guy NEEDS those extra buttons, yes, he's not confirmed, however w/ the new button setup, he will be missing Alot of the uniqueness and strategy of how he plays like), or become overpowered in multiple ways with this button setup. Again, you have many scenarios with either lack or complete removal of moves to a huge reliance upon command normals would completely defeat the purpose of making the button layout more "newbie friendly".

For sometime, I am still puzzled as to how Marvel wasn't considered "newbie" friendly enough, when if an average joe took a small time within his day to learn, he could start to pick up the basics of the Marvel vs Game setup already. It's not very hard for you to teach a player to learn how to do a 5-hit combo with Wolverine here. Or even a basic air combo which can be learned relatively quickly.

Even if they didn't get the execution down 100%, they could already understand the fundamental basics and quickly learn from it. So to me, making it seemingly "dumbed" down makes absolutely no sense. To top it off, it'll have a TvC style button lay out...So should I call this TatsuMarvel vs Capcom instead?

MvC2 if it were 6-button layout would have been drastically better, however the Assist buttons more then made up for it. However This?! I'm sorry, I don't buy what Seth is saying, many times I can agree to him however this is one of those occurrences in which I will have to say that I am more worried then hopeful.

I swear Fighting Games seem to get more dumbed down as time goes on, one day, there will be one button that allows you to do a combo into a super, on that day, I hope I'm long dead because these kind of things really needs to stop.

 

[Brightside6382]

I swear Fighting Games seem to get more dumbed down as time goes on, one day, there will be one button that allows you to do a combo into a super, on that day, I hope I'm long dead because these kind of things really needs to stop.

It's not only fighting games that this is happening to.

 

[CRASHiC]

The goal of game design is to make things as easy as possible while retaining depth. There's nothing wrong with making **** easier as long as you don't take away from depth.

 

[Gates]

As far as overlapping commands go, Felicia is in the game and she has plenty of overlapping commands, so you never know how they might get it to work.

 

[OneWingSephiroth]

The goal of game design is to make things as easy as possible while retaining depth. There's nothing wrong with making **** easier as long as you don't take away from depth.

That doesn't make any sense considering by removing button attacks, you will directly remove strategy and move aspects for characters. So I really don't understand the logic on how it will "keep" depth when in fact you are limiting attack buttons.

As stated, how does someone like Strider, Iron Man, Colossus, Gambit, Psylocke, and so many more characters benefit from such a "thing" if they are removed of attack buttons. They either will straight up have to play completely different or else, if they "are" there older counterparts (which is the most likely case scenario) then they'll lost a drastic amount of advanced moves that has made their character, or in another case, they can become drastically more powerful due to these setups (IM possibly for example). Those characters above will either not make the cut due to the button setup (Iron Man is in, so it'll be interesting), or else will either lack alot of missing tools that was once within their arsenal.

Here's an example here...Ice Man used to have attacks Pre-MvC2 to where he could cover the top of him, imagine what it would have BEEN like had Ice Man had this in MvC2, you know what this means? This means that Magneto and Storm would straight up have a tougher time getting in on someone such as him.

In MvC2 with the lack of two-buttons, Ice Man lost these specials and thus no longer had anything to stop characters like Storm from running away all day. Everyone also seems to think that this is the first time Storm was so ridiculous. However in COTA, her runaway game was 100x worse however characters did better up against her in those situations because of the 6-button layout which gave them all of their tool options.

By simply making the button system the way it is, you are either overlapping commands which again, to many characters, this is going to be a huge problem, and the other factor which would be that "Hey, we are going to pick the moves we want in, and after that you'll have to deal with it".

Again, if you overlap with commands, you'll downright make the game difficult to pick up and learn regardless of that would have defeated the entire purpose of doing this within the first place. Another is that the game itself will become less strategical due to lack of button options that was available before. Thirdly, this is Marvel vs, not Tatusnoko vs Capcom, I still don't get Capcom's Master plan of incorporating a button system that is so far and away from the Marvel vs Series that's already established itself as a franchise away from other VS games.

Fourthly, it is absolutely stupid, and I mean stupid on Capcom's part to dumb the game down. It's not like it's going to stop casual players from going "Omgosh, Wolverine, this Rocks!" having them play the game, it's not like Scrubs are going to come out of the wood works and start beating players like Yipes, Sanford or Justin Wong.

The BEST Players are still going to **** everyone, however this change up may dissuade the already established middle ground players from not truly enjoying this game (Meaning the Solid Players), due to how the button setup is which I and many, many others simply do not agree too.

Again, I see absolutely no real justification to this, other then to allow Billy to have 5 more seconds of thinking he's good at playing this game, when in fact, the Marvel vs Series from just its absolute basics is even relatively easy to pick up already. Yes, I hate to say it to my favorite fighting game company, but this is one of the dumbest ideas by them (Other dumb ideas were Supers in ST, Custom Combos, Ultra System, and who could forget the ******** Parry System).

 

[CRASHiC]

That doesn't make any sense considering by removing button attacks, you will directly remove strategy and move aspects for characters. So I really don't understand the logic on how it will "keep" depth when in fact you are limiting attack buttons.

Who said more buttons = more moves? That's not always the case, nor are the two directly connected at all. Arksystems games use 3-4 button layouts, but have more moves than Capcom games, especially when you start counting each ingrained system like Burst and Green Guard. Don't even get me started about Tekkon and its 4 button equals 100+ move for each character.

Sorry, but you're just old and salty.

 

[ZMan]

snip

regardless of how the game turns out i'll still play unless something goes horribly wrong.

 

[OneWingSephiroth]

Who said more buttons = more moves? That's not always the case, nor are the two directly connected at all. Arksystems games use 3-4 button layouts, but have more moves than Capcom games, especially when you start counting each ingrained system like Burst and Green Guard. Don't even get me started about Tekkon and its 4 button equals 100+ move for each character.

Sorry, but you're just old and salty.

Thank You for trying to compare a Ark System and Namco System to a Capcom System, considering NONE of them play a like and how they incorporate things are in multiple ways accessibly different, are you just spewing this out for the sake of argument. Firstly, those systems were built for their games, GG did not change button set ups mid-way through the series, and neither did Tekken. For MvC3, this is a COMPLETELY overhaul on a Franchise that has already been well established on how it's played and it's layout.

Imagine if Ark Systems decided to have "less" buttons then what they have now, or Tekken for matter, while adding a new button saying that it will be a "launcher" now...hmm...anyone playing GG or Tekken currently would be like WTF, and give in to great concern, so please, don't try to compare a system to another when both aren't even played in the same manner.

Considering we ALREADY have an explanation and idea of what the button lay-outs for MvC3 is, and by that, it doesn't look to "upgrade" in any manner. If you quote back, at least talk about the game we are trying to speak of, not about trying to compare other company franchises whose systems don't even remotely play exactly alike or are completely different fighting games all together.

Lastly, please refrain from the ghetto pics, that stuff is quite overdone, just simply posting would be fine, and yes, why wouldn't I be upset, your dumbing down an established franchise in more ways then one. More importantly this will not improve upon how we already were playing the game beforehand.

 

[CRASHiC]

MvC 2 changed the number of buttons if I do recall. At any rate, Capcom's button systems have been overdone anyway, having 6 versions of each special is really overkill, and unnecessary in the majority of cases.. So you won't have as many different versions as the same special, that's not a huge hindrance really. It'll effect some more than others, namely anti-airs, but its still far too much in my opinion.

Imagine if Ark Systems decided to have "less" buttons then what they have now, or Tekken for matter, while adding a new button saying that it will be a "launcher" now...hmm...anyone playing GG or Tekken currently would be like WTF, and give in to great concern, so please, don't try to compare a system to another when both aren't even played in the same manner.

Nah, not really. First off, Guilty Gear already has a launcher. Secondly, Arksys messed around with their buttons quite a deal. They only have 3 attack buttons, and are constantly messing around with the 4th button. I'm sure any GG fan (not so much BB because the game is based entirely around the Drive system) would be open minded as to what the new button layout would work like.

The point of the example was to show that you don't have to have overlaying inputs simply because you have fewer buttons to press. Guilty Gear works with the same button number, and has a launcher and works just fine. There's no reason to say that this game couldn't act fine with it as well considering their similarities.

Be patient, you haven't seen anything other than your nostalgia being crushed yet.

 

[Brightside6382]

MvC 2 changed the number of buttons if I do recall. At any rate, Capcom's button systems have been overdone anyway, having 6 versions of each special is really overkill, and unnecessary in the majority of cases.. So you won't have as many different versions as the same special, that's not a huge hindrance really. It'll effect some more than others, namely anti-airs, but its still far too much in my opinion.

6 versions of each special? Specials in capcom games are either punch or kick oriented with few exceptions breaking this disctiction. That means at max three variations but MvC2 layout already decreased it to two. If your trying to say that for example having 4 variations of striders tele in MvC2 is overkill (one of the exceptions) then you lack knowledge of the game in general.

 

[CRASHiC]

Sagat has 6 versions of his fireball, not counting EX. I was refering to Capcom games in general abuot the multiple versions of specials. Yeah, they add something, but rarely is every version necessary.

You can still have multiple versions of specials. Guilty Gear, which has the same kind of button layout in this, has different versions of the same special.

 

[OneWingSephiroth]

~snip~

Then give your "explanation" of how it'll somehow improve instead of by simply saying "We don't know yet" comments. Honestly, I'm beginning to believe you truly don't know how Marvel vs works. You don't even realize how much this will hinder characters, nor do you understand what can go completely wrong with what they believe will "make the game more accessible".

Read my reference to characters like Strider/Iceman/Colossus again. However, they compensated this greatly with the Assist, which added a WHOLE new level of gameplay. However more importantly, characters were not super limited by this, which is a HUGE factor.

However let me give examples here since it is similar in TvC in fashion we have things to talk about concerning commands...

Spider-Man- Is c.medium his c.strong or c.forward? Same question goes for his s.medium. All of these moves have radically different properties. If you take away s.strong and c.fwd, Spidey can no longer chain into launch. Do the opposite and Spidey can no longer chain someone on the ground. Awesome.

Wolverine- Is c.medium his c.fwd or c.strong? C.strong is crucial to launch, but c.fwd is either his safe sweep (useful against super armor) or part of his BnB ground chain, depending on which version of c.fwd.

Iron Man- Is c.medium his chainable, farthest reaching launcher or his only sweep?

Cap- is s.hard his fastest, highest priority strike or part of his BnB combo?

Some people may be inclined to think that they can implement it in such a way to make any of these command normals. However, what people fail to realize is that, by doing so, you are directly making the game more difficult to play! Again, removes the entire aspect of having the "limited" button idea ='s Easier to Pick Up.

Another thing, it will have a HUGE impact on multiple characters, again, if you played Marvel vs remotely competitively before hand, you would know what this can do to characters. Let me explain to you again, since considering you completely avoided my Ice Man explanation from simply going from COTA to MvC2. I'll talk about Strider this time here...

Strider has more than 10 specials all the while the fact that he uses qcf+P, qcf+K, qcb+P, qcb+K, dp+P, dp+K, rdp+P, rdp+K, charge b,f+P, charge b,f+K. In the air he uses qcf+P, qcf+K, and dp+P. You seriously, seriously expect 4 buttons to hold all that?

Considering this, with the limitations of 2 buttons for MvC2, Strider was already overloaded, because playing him, you can die more so from simply the "overlap" of moves then by just simply adding the additional buttons. Not to mention this, Back in MvC1, Strider had 6 ways to teleport, while in MvC2 he only had 4, you don't think having the other two wasn't drastic to his teleport game? Hist normals which were phenomenal in MvC1 were also gimped with the MvC2 transition.

This is exactly why a character like Strider will not make the cut into MvC3 because of where it is headed. He is an absolutely unique character, that plays incredibly unique to himself, however with the distinguished button setup, he will not be able to do so anymore, and "if" he was to be implemented would play almost completely away from who he was in all other previous MvC games, or either not losing a great deal of his tools if he was to contain his similarity results.

You claim this doesn't have a "huge" affect, and yet just one single character I mentioned here would already get shafted to the point of not even being close to his former self. This isn't just about how "good" Strider is, it's also about how he plays uniquely only to himself already, which has been well established.

Incorporating Motion+Attack for medium also doesn't help or benefit in improvement for an already established character move list for the Marvel vs Series. Lets say for example that in order to do a medium you'll have to hold back+attack or what not to do it.

However, how do characters like Guile, Hulk, Shuma Gorath, etc, etc do jabs now while maintaining charge? Either that or you have to lose your charge for that medium attack. There is a reason why for Capcom games there are little to no direction+normals in these due to problems that arises such as these. Again, what are Gambit, Psylocke, Dictator, Strider, IM, etc, etc all are to do with these implementations, and that's only a select few example characters that I have stated who would be greatly affected by this lay out.

To me, you simply aren't reading my statements more thoroughly and your excuse of saying "Well this works for GG". Well of course it works for GG because it has been built within the same standard and has not changed drastically since Day #1. The characters with their movelist, and how they played were built with their system in mind since the very beginning with no significant changes.

If you disagree then name me a time when GG had as "drastic" of a button layout change like what we are seeing with MvC3, in which it could greatly water a character or remove potential tools that they would have? Or making them potentially playing nearly completely different from their formal versions? Answer: None. (<--- Important for you to read that so you don't use GG as an example again, because it's a terrible one).

Giving 3-buttons for MvC3 DRASTICALLY changes it from how it previously plays like, and will do what I've said before, either removing multiple tools that characters may have already have, forcing you to use what's "only" given to you. Either that overlapping commands which will directly make the game even more difficult to pick up, again, simply refuting the notion of "We are trying to make it easier for people to play" mentality.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

I wish the rep system was still here so I can give OneWingSephiroth some thumbs up.

 

[Heartz♥]

I applaud you for having the patience to read that.

 

[CRASHiC]

Hi my name's sephiroth and I judge things before I have any understanding on how they'll actually be implemented, and despite the fact that other games pull it off incredibly well, I'm certain this game won't. I also think that MvC2 is the only game in the McC series, and that the differences between McC and MvC2 don't exist and aren't any different than what the change is for this game.

 

[Brightside6382]

Hi my name's sephiroth and I judge things before I have any understanding on how they'll actually be implemented, and despite the fact that other games pull it off incredibly well, I'm certain this game won't. I also think that MvC2 is the only game in the McC series, and that the differences between McC and MvC2 don't exist and aren't any different than what the change is for this game.

I looked at your join date and it all makes sense now. You play brawl lulz

 

[CRASHiC]

I don't play Smash any more. They both suck competivly with no or little value, both have huge problems.
You also ignored the fact that I play Guilty Gear, and are just trash talking. I would bite back, but I'm 1 point away from a ban, and don't think a Smash-tard is worth my ban, I'll save that for **** jokes.

If MvC2 removed a button, than so can MvC3. Its a natural transition, and simply because MvC2 came out 10 **** years ago doesn't really mean much of anything. The simple fact is that a 3 attack buttons and a launcher CAN be pulled off very well. Guilty Gear demonstrates how to have only 3 attacks, a large number of attacks, multiple versions of specials, no over laying inputs, multiple system engines in one game efficiency. Its not impossible for this button scheme to work at all. You're just crying about change, even before you know how that change will be implemented.

 

[Minato]

Hi my name's sephiroth and I judge things before I have any understanding on how they'll actually be implemented, and despite the fact that other games pull it off incredibly well, I'm certain this game won't. I also think that MvC2 is the only game in the McC series, and that the differences between McC and MvC2 don't exist and aren't any different than what the change is for this game.

I'm pretty sure OneWingSephiroth stated that he didn't like the differences between MvC and MvC2...
He didn't ignore the changes. He even mentioned how Strider was hurt from the change because of his normals and specials and such. He even gave an explanation on how it hurts characters like Ice Man too.

But I have to agree with OneWingSephiroth on this one. I don't think there was any need to change to change the button layout again, especially since this is kind of a revival for MvC. I remember Capcom stating that they didn't want to make any changes to SFIV's layout since it would alienate older fans, I wish they would've considered the same thing for MvC3.

On your GG statement, I think OWS was correct in saying that even if it has more specials with less buttons, GG games didn't lose any buttons (Didn't they gain more because of Dust?). The Capcom side had the same inputs from their older games, so that would mean that the inputs might have to be different which is why some people (including myself) aren't too fond of the new button layout.

I guess it would be as if the next GG game decided to use the same layout as BlazBlue. Less buttons and a Drive button would change the feel of how the characters play, IMO. It just wouldn't be the same. I really hope this won't happen if they make another GG game.

From my guess, the exchange button is probably going to be like a Dust button for MvC3. So we might be getting an entirely different move by using that button (e.g. as if all inputs and then finishing it off by hitting exchange would be Strider animals to avoid overlapping or whatever).

But yeah, 6 buttons to 4, and now 3 is trimming it down too much. I do admit that I hated MvC2's layout (which was why I didn't play MvC2 much when it was out), but after playing it and learning how assists work, the game was fun. But that might be because of how the gameplay felt totally different from all the older Versus games since the two MvC games had totally distinct feels. If MvC3 doesn't have that nice distinct feel, then it'll feel that it's dumbing down the system. We'll wait and see though.

Still though, I like OneWingSephiroth's posts. I think they were well written since he tried to justify the reasons on how it hurts specific characters instead of saying the layout is dumb and he won't play it.

 

[OneWingSephiroth]

If MvC2 removed a button, than so can MvC3. Its a natural transition, and simply because MvC2 came out 10 **** years ago doesn't really mean much of anything. The simple fact is that a 3 attack buttons and a launcher CAN be pulled off very well. Guilty Gear demonstrates how to have only 3 attacks, a large number of attacks, multiple versions of specials, no over laying inputs, multiple system engines in one game efficiency. Its not impossible for this button scheme to work at all. You're just crying about change, even before you know how that change will be implemented.

Have you played Marvel vs Capcom competitively once in your life? Do you understand the control schemes enough to make a credible opinion on the matter? Do you still use GG as an example when in fact, it's been using basically the say lay out for it's game since the very first GG game?

I'm going to tell you again, using GG to compare to Marvel vs Capcom 3 is an unintelligent comparison. Because the Marvel vs Series was already established with a 6-button lay out prior to MvC3. Yes, the transition from Marvel vs Capcom 1 to Marvel vs Capcom 2 was indeed different but only "slightly", however what you failed to realize is that the fundamentals of the characters still stayed intact for MvC2.

Example - Footsies are slightly reduced in MvC2, someone such as Capt. America loses an Angle on his Shield Slash projectile, BUT he still retains all of his fundamentals.

So Marvel vs Capcom 2 did lose some tools, but it's fundamentals for how you played the character stayed intact, and MvC2 itself is a vastly better game over MvC1 (due to how MvC1 plays like, not it's controls) however "had" MvC2 kept the original 6 attack buttons + 2 assist it would have been an even better game.

However the change up to MvC3 schemes will devoid it completely from the standards of how these characters would be used from previous versions in more ways then one, and also removing many of the available tools that they would have.

Just imagine if you were playing Street Fighter II back in the day, and they decided to make a new SFII game, however Capcom comes out and says "In the new one, there will only LP, HP, LK, HK now". You know what that does? Dictator, Claw, Honda, Blanka, Guile etc, etc lose two charge moves each (including a magnitude of others on that list). Dhalsim loses teleport completely, not to mention the normals you would be losing. Imagine Guile w/o c.mk...one of his BEST pokes within his arsenal, imagine Ryu w/out overhead MP, or c.mk? Imagine Chunli w/o s.mp one of her absolute best pokes in SFII! If you look at that and go "Dang, that's terrible and stupid!".

Well guess what...that's whats going to happen with the transition of Marvel vs Capcom 3 with the characters. This would straight up change characters in how they play, even remove many of the tools they already had with the current button setup and may completely change them entirely from playing how they originally played like (or character uniqueness). That's what is going to happen to MvC3, because this will directly conflict with alot of the characters who were already established with a button system layout that has been around for the Marvel vs series since day 1.

I'm not being "mad" about change, what I'm being mad about is, how in the world do you "improve" depth, character diversity, when you are LIMITING characters with this new lay out? How? Tell me how it will work, other then "Well, just wait and see, omgosh." comments (No more GG comments either).

Give me an explanation of how in your "Marvel vs Capcom knowledge" of how the characters I mentioned earlier would be "better" in this new button scheme?

How do you implement All of Striders Animal Attacks? How about Strider Teleports? Because he would be going from 6 teleports, to 4 teleports in MvC2, and "If" Capcom decided to put him into MvC3, he would only have ONE teleport in MvC3! Remember One...from Six?! How about his Normals? How do you implement them effectively w/o them conflicting with his specials already if you decide to use direction+attack?

Strider has charges, so this would completely negate his charge if you planned to use a medium attack. Again, how does 3-buttons improve characters such as him? He's just one single character, out of the many others that I mentioned plus many others I have yet not named, again, give me your straight up "logical" answer to how having less will somehow maintain Marvel vs Capcoms integrity? All I keep hearing is "Wait and see, wait and see"...well guess what, if you really knew how Marvel vs Capcom played like in all previous versions, and you just used logic with what has been officially stated by Seth and Capcom with the new button scheme for MvC3, you would directly come up with the same results of concern that I have posted.

I want your straight statements involving this matter instead of relying upon Guilty Gear, or Tekken, or some other random fighting game which has no barring to do with how Marvel vs Series works as a fighting game, nor does it stand to make your post credible.

Capcom will end up doing one of the few things...

1. They will remove alot of the arsenals attacks for previous characters from the Marvel vs Series in order to be able to incorporate them into the game of MvC3 (Not Good - Because it will devalue the depth of the characters because it will remove their tools from previous Marvel vs Games).

2. They will be forced to having to overlap commands (Not Good - Considering this will make the game even more harder to play then previous Marvel vs Games defeating the entire purpose of them trying to make it "easier" to play within the first place! Another is that it would be almost impossible to do this unless you did the Above).

3. Both of the Above... (A very highly scenario).

So basically put, Capcom is limiting attacks with the purpose of supposedly making it easier (but read my 2. again which will contradict what they are already trying to do), however at what HUGE COST? You said yourself Crash in one of your post that you wouldn't mind it "if" it kept it's depth, however by limiting button layouts, which will inherently do what I mentioned above, it will devalue the quality of depth, thus not retaining its prior quality. Oh yeah, one last thing, I also forgot to post that this new scheme may also "benefit" certain characters to the point of being even more broken and overpowered then they were in previous Marvel vs Games due to overlapping commands and what not, so for any "I'm all about balance" people, you should also be concerned.

Ps: Thank You Minato, your one of the few on here who posted that understands Marvel enough to realize what I'm trying to say.

 

[CRASHiC]

You're making all of these assumptions and assertions on one fatal logical flaw: you assume that the characters won't be changed. You bring up the issues that MvC2 had, but MvC2 didn't even attempt balance, it has already been stated that this game is.

For example, you broth up one character's priority attack possibly being lost, however, that's assuming that NOTHING will change besides the graphics and control scheme. SF4 not only didn't change control schemes, but for the most part, characters had the same move set. Despite this, attacks had major priority shifts because of balance changes. So in this game, which we know very little about except its graphics and the control scheme and some of the cast roster, how can you honestly judge this? You are unaware of what changes are going to be implemented, and are basing all of your assumptions on previous games. We've already heard of a "launcher" button, which clearly indicates that some drastic changes are in store for the characters. You're judging far too soon without any basis other than past games, which is a very poor basis.

 

[kr3wman]

Commands overlapping is the only thing that annoys me.

Sure, they'll change the motions, but it's motions that have been there for like, 16 years(X-Men : COTA) (17 years by the time MvC3 came out.)

Other than that MvC2 was already pretty simple anyway so no problem with a new control scheme.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

Ps: Thank You Minato, your one of the few on here who posted that understands Marvel enough to realize what I'm trying to say.

You're not acknowledging my support because I like SF III, aren't you

 

[OneWingSephiroth]

~snip~

This is like talking to a brick wall here. Firstly, it would be stupid, and I mean stupid for Capcom to not keep the characteristics of how an individual has played throughout a series already. How dumb would it be to force different inputs for Dictator to start having DP motions simply due to overlapping when his character clearly has been a charge character his entire career?

Your statement revolving around SF:IV is also completely flawed and atrocious, considering that although move properties do in fact change from Series to Series (Meaning SFII to SF Alpha to SF IV) the characters all still inherent their fundamentals from all other versions. So even though SF:IV Ryu may not be "exactly" like SFII Ryu, he still plays with the same mindset and focus of all of his other counterparts, which is zoning, footsies, and spacing to win!

Blanka still utilizes mixups and confusion to beat you (fundamental since SFII), Sagat is still crushing you by dominant zoning, Guile beats you down with SB setups and zoning you to submission. Fundamentally, all of them are exactly similar to their SFII versions from the very beginning, so really, where are you trying to go with this?

Your arguments of "Well, they could play completely different" is a terrible idea as well. So basically put, if Strider loses a load of his arsenals because he CAN'T have have all of his tools in due to the lack of attacks means that it should be okay for him to play differently. That's just stupid, because the only reason he would be playing differently is because he'd be a watered down version of his other counterparts due to the lack of tools he would have.

Which again ='s Removing Depth of character that you so truly treasure. Because let me say this, when a character plays like how they've been since day one, and become drastically changed, however not for the better, how do you equate this to being great? So if Gouki loses the ability to shoot a projectile in the air, but then has a better ground game, would that really be Gouki anymore? The answer would be NO.

You are basically saying that its "okay" for them to lose these things if need be, because this is something "new", and thus it's alright. Even though you failed to realize the part that Marvel vs is already WELL established. That characters although slightly tweaked from each revision have fundamentally stayed the same. Limiting attacks, forcing scenario's of where you'll have to pick and choose specials from the developers and or overlapping commands will cause significant and in almost all cases consequential losses to that character.

There is NO way, and I mean NO way is a 3-button Attack MvC3 Ryu, Strider, Chunli, Hulk etc going to have as many variable options as a 6-button Attack Ryu, Strider, Chunli, Hulk, there simply will not, because they've already been integrated with the 6-button lay out prior to this even the MvC2 setup is heads and shoulders superior in variables to the MvC3 layout. This will force them to being more limited, because again, they're already established characters.

Take into account here that if you actually took time to look over to TvC, we've already seen this prior to already. TvC Ryu in terms of what he can do in contrast to MvC2 Ryu is severely limited (don't let the "balance" of the game fool you here), and if compared to XvsSF Ryu whom is using the traditional 6-button lay out is even more limited. So I'm wondering here...how am I really just theory fighting here, when we see that in the very lay out system similar to what will be used for MvC3, that characters were limited due to the lack of attack buttons.

Yes, it lends far more credibility here, what I'm saying is, that removing attack buttons does not give you "more depth" but removes from it. Overlapping commands will not force the issue of making things easier, which is what Capcom wanted, but will ultimately make it harder to actually pick up. Like I said, you still haven't even refuted scenario's in what I've spoken about, which again, are likely case scenario's and will be due to the direct influence of the TvC lay out.

How much more ABC do you need to do in order for you to realize this, or can you tell me in your own words to how having less "attack buttons" somehow makes it better, when in fact TvC as a game proved it for characters whom were in 6-button oriented vs games before being incorporated into TvC? Lastly, could you for once, finally talk to me about how in your "eyes" since you seemingly defend the newer setup to how it will be "fine".

Again, your doing nothing but straw man stuff with your "Let's wait and see, stop bickering" comments, which again, proves nothing to your defense of saying it's fine that it's like this. What is your reasoning to this, other then that Capcom is doing this, so everything should be okay comments.

I swear, whenever I reply back to your post, I seem to drop down in IQ.

You're not acknowledging my support because I like SF III, aren't you

Lol, naw, forgot that you posted, however again, at least I know that there are some people who know Marvel vs enough to realize what we'll be losing when we transition to a 3-button attack game in contrast to what we had prior too.

 

[kr3wman]

COTA is where it's at.

...

wait, never mind, just remembered how that game played.

...

Has Ryu ever been higher than low tier in the VS series? (Wasn't he like, nerfed throughout the series even though he was never good?)

Did SF characters ever play like their SF counterparts in VS series?

Is Strider/X character/Y character even confirmed as a returning character?

Has anyone played the game yet?

Does more buttons really equal more depth?

Is using earlier fighting games made by capcom as examples to prove your arguments yet attacking your opponent's argument by saying that the guys at Capcom don't know what they're are doing is kind of, I don't know, weird?

Will characters really be changed that much?

Does this argument even have a point since he's just saying 'Shut up, you have nothing to complain about since you don't even know what you are complaining about' and you're just saying 'I know stuff so I can complain about stuff I don't know'?

My thoughts.

 

[OneWingSephiroth]

Has Ryu ever been higher than low tier in the VS series? (Wasn't he like, nerfed throughout the series even though he was never good?)

It isn't a question of whether Ryu was good, its the comparison of TvC Ryu options in contrast to a 6-button Ryu option, I would write this up in mass productions again, however just look that up in the MvC3 threads at srk.com, explaining it very well.

Lastly, Ryu was good in a few vs Games...X-Men vs Street Fighter, and in Marvel Super Heroes vs Street Fighter, Ryu was #4 in that game behind Wolvering, Omega Red and Dhalsim.

Did SF characters ever play like their SF counterparts in VS series?

In some cases, yes, and in some cases no. Capcom was foolish to believe that Ryu footsies, zoning would work in a game where 8-way jumps, triple jumps, Tri-Jumps, air dashes, flying are present. So yes, and no, however, the purpose of what I said was that characters within the Marvel vs Series have fundamentally stayed the same. Forcing 3-buttons you are going to drastically change alot of things significantly, and in most cases not for the better.

Is Strider/X character/Y character even confirmed as a returning character?

Whether Strider will be in the game or not is not the point. The point was that "if" Strider was in the game that he would be heavily skewered by the button lay out deployed by Capcom for the current MvC3, because it would be impossible for Capcom to incorporate all of his specials, attacks in that lay out. In which case, he is a character who needs all of those to thrive as shown by how he's played since his debut in MvC1 to MvC2.

Has anyone played the game yet?

No one has, however it doesn't take alot to see how going from 6-buttons to 4-buttons + 2 assist, to 3 attack buttons+Launcher+Assist can cause bigger problem issues then simply keeping it to the already established Marvel vs setup.

Does more buttons really equal more depth?

It isn't necessarily that more buttons equals "more" depth, the problem arises in that Marvel vs Series has already been established w/ characters playing with a 6-button lay out (Established w/ attacks, specials, normals, etc, etc with 6 buttons). How do you honestly incorporate many of these characters (Many of them with numerous specials) to being pushed into a game w/ less buttons, and somehow "remain" just as variable when MvC2, and TvC proved that by missing buttons, many characters lost options.

If TvC2 all of a sudden decided to remove another attack button, making you having only 2, would that force better depth then the original 3?

Is using earlier fighting games made by capcom as examples to prove your arguments yet attacking your opponent's argument by saying that the guys at Capcom don't know what they're are doing is kind of, I don't know, weird?

Yes, example. COTA Ice Man showed that he had better options then his MvC2 version because he had the extra two buttons which would have greatly improved his chances up against the Big-4 in MvC2. TvC that sports a 3-button system simlar to MvC3 minus the "launcher" and "assist" button showed that the characters in contrast they had less variable options in contrast to their 6-button to even 4-button MvC2 counterparts.

With Capcom making it in this way, they are forcing themselves to either removes attacks, specials for characters, or forcing overlapping commands, which in the second noted case again is inherently more difficult to learn then the traditional Marvel vs scheme already.

It's not that outrageous to get to this conclusion.

Will characters really be changed that much?

Give me a reasonable explanation of how Guile, Dictator, Shuma, Psylocke, Strider, Hulk, Gambit (saying if all of these characters were to show up in MvC3, and these are just a few examples) and all would work with a 3-button to even play "similar" to their other Marvel vs versions w/o drastic modifications, limitations, and even potential removal of certain attacks, specials, etc, I would like to know.

Does this argument even have a point since he's just saying 'Shut up, you have nothing to complain about since you don't even know what you are complaining about' and you're just saying 'I know stuff so I can complain about stuff I don't know'?

My thoughts.

Would be awesome if you had more then just this run by. Again, if my statements or justifications have no "validation" then post something to say, so, if you think otherwise. Again, I'm not looking for an argument here, however Capcom is abandoning the traditional SF 6-button and MvC2 Layout completely for a button lay out that is established for another VS Series, which has shown that those characters in contrast to their other versions have less variables, tools to use.

If you can tell me how going from 6, to 6+assist, to 4+2 assist to 3+1 launcher+1 assist ='s Better, then I'm all ears.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

There are still two assist buttons in MvC 3.


And as a Shuma-Gorath player this new control scheme just screws me over.

 

[Brightside6382]

There are still two assist buttons in MvC 3.


And as a Shuma-Gorath player this new control scheme just screws me over.

I'd actually be really surprised if Shuma made the cut. As much as I like him I have my doubts for some reason...

 

[CRASHiC]

This is like talking to a brick wall here. Firstly, it would be stupid, and I mean stupid for Capcom to not keep the characteristics of how an individual has played throughout a series already. How dumb would it be to force different inputs for Dictator to start having DP motions simply due to overlapping when his character clearly has been a charge character his entire career?

Who says Dictator is going to be in this game? He certainly isn't a confirmed character yet. This brings me back to my point, you are judging this control scheme based on the idea that nothing is going to change except the control scheme itself. This isn't MvC2. They are actually attempting to balance this one. They aren't going to change the control scheme so radically and not compensate the charecters for it.

Your statement revolving around SF:IV is also completely flawed and atrocious, considering that although move properties do in fact change from Series to Series (Meaning SFII to SF Alpha to SF IV) the characters all still inherent their fundamentals from all other versions. So even though SF:IV Ryu may not be "exactly" like SFII Ryu, he still plays with the same mindset and focus of all of his other counterparts, which is zoning, footsies, and spacing to win!

Blanka still utilizes mixups and confusion to beat you (fundamental since SFII), Sagat is still crushing you by dominant zoning, Guile beats you down with SB setups and zoning you to submission. Fundamentally, all of them are exactly similar to their SFII versions from the very beginning, so really, where are you trying to go with this?

Yes, their general feel is the same, however, even with them being nearly exactly the same to their SFII versions, their normals behave differently in many situations. Many of your statments are about losing a particualar normal that was important in the past, as if its qualities wold remain unchanged in this version. they aren't going to be unchanged, they are going to be altered. Look at Makoto in SSFIV, many, many of her normals were buffed. Her roundhouse is no longer a slow heavy punisher, but is now a quick powerful footsie.

Your arguments of "Well, they could play completely different" is a terrible idea as well. So basically put, if Strider loses a load of his arsenals because he CAN'T have have all of his tools in due to the lack of attacks means that it should be okay for him to play differently. That's just stupid, because the only reason he would be playing differently is because he'd be a watered down version of his other counterparts due to the lack of tools he would have.

Who said completely differently? The numerous and large changes to Makoto's normals in SSFIV show its not true. The whole thing I'm getting at is that you're assuming everythign based on the idea that the characters shouldn't change, simply for the sake of old notalgia huggers like yourself. MvC2 was an accident, we can all accept this. So, in a game that isn't meant to be played on a competative level, in a game that was horribly unbalanced, in a game that was nothing more than a collection of "lol, what if he does this" why would you want to keep the game the way it was? That clearly sounds like a game in the need of a massive overhaul.

Which again ='s Removing Depth of character that you so truly treasure.

I've already given examples of games that have less buttons but more depth. You aren't even arguing for depth, but to keep the established charecters.

Because let me say this, when a character plays like how they've been since day one, and become drastically changed, however not for the better, how do you equate this to being great? So if Gouki loses the ability to shoot a projectile in the air, but then has a better ground game, would that really be Gouki anymore? The answer would be NO.

Sure he would. Maybe not what you hold dear to your old fart heart, but he still would be. So Makoto isn't true rushdown anymore, but instead is a mix of rushdown and abnormal footsies in SSIV, she's still Makoto. There's nothing wrong with changing established charecters when the game you're taking them from is still crap.

You are basically saying that its "okay" for them to lose these things if need be, because this is something "new", and thus it's alright. Even though you failed to realize the part that Marvel vs is already WELL established.

Not important, again. Arakune lost A LOT going from BB 1 to BB 2. He's still doing fine.

That characters although slightly tweaked from each revision have fundamentally stayed the same.

And MvC2 was nothing more than a surprise accident. Had certain things not happened, the game would have been ****, completely. It ended up good, but in its basis, its complete ****. The game needs a massive overhall if it hopes to have a future.

This will force them to being more limited, because again, they're already established characters.

Nah, they can still be changed. Eddie in GGXX was incredibly limited and changed in the next two versions of the game.

Yes, it lends far more credibility here, what I'm saying is, that removing attack buttons does not give you "more depth" but removes from it.

Nah, doesn't have to. Arksys uses few buttons but has huge depth. The number of buttons does in no way correlate to depth, as long as you're willing to develop them with this button scheme in mind.

Like I said, you still haven't even refuted scenario's in what I've spoken about, which again, are likely case scenario's and will be due to the direct influence of the TvC lay out.

Its refuted because its based on the faulty assumption that these characters should stay exactly the same, and you're entire basis stems from the idea that they shouldn't change because of the past. I guess you're up for using Morrigan's sprite again too then. I mean, its an established sprite, let's just keep it. MvC2 was near trash, the game needs an overhall.
Also, this isn't like the TvC layout really, its far closer to GG.

I swear, whenever I reply back to your post, I seem to drop down in IQ.

Whenever I respiond to your post, its like I'm talking to Steinbeck about modern man and his opinion on how bad everything new is.

 

[Minato]

I guess I'm going to join in this debate since I have nothing better to do with my time.

Who says Dictator is going to be in this game? He certainly isn't a confirmed character yet. This brings me back to my point, you are judging this control scheme based on the idea that nothing is going to change except the control scheme itself. This isn't MvC2. They are actually attempting to balance this one. They aren't going to change the control scheme so radically and not compensate the charecters for it.

OWS isn't stating that Dictator will be in this game. He's just giving an example on characters that are in Dictator's situation won't be able to be in MvC3 without altering their motions. On your second point, I'm pretty sure he knows that they are going to change other things besides the control scheme.

Yes, their general feel is the same, however, even with them being nearly exactly the same to their SFII versions, their normals behave differently in many situations. Many of your statments are about losing a particualar normal that was important in the past, as if its qualities wold remain unchanged in this version. they aren't going to be unchanged, they are going to be altered. Look at Makoto in SSFIV, many, many of her normals were buffed. Her roundhouse is no longer a slow heavy punisher, but is now a quick powerful footsie.

Even if Makoto had some of her normals buffed/altered, she at least had all of her normals intact (from what I remember). Capcom better choose good normals when they're choosing existing ones since I feel that having less buttons will make choosing the right normals to put in for each character even more crucial. That's my take on it anyway.

Who said completely differently? The numerous and large changes to Makoto's normals in SSFIV show its not true. The whole thing I'm getting at is that you're assuming everythign based on the idea that the characters shouldn't change, simply for the sake of old notalgia huggers like yourself. MvC2 was an accident, we can all accept this. So, in a game that isn't meant to be played on a competative level, in a game that was horribly unbalanced, in a game that was nothing more than a collection of "lol, what if he does this" why would you want to keep the game the way it was? That clearly sounds like a game in the need of a massive overhaul.

I don't know. Your statement almost gives off that the only way to make the game balanced is to completely overhaul the game (like changing the control scheme). There are other ways to balance the game and I'm pretty sure OWS wrote a post at the beginning of this thread on what could help contribute balance. I just don't think that changing the controls like this is the way to go. I haven't played the game though, so I'll wait and see since I have no idea what the Exchange button is really like.

I've already given examples of games that have less buttons but more depth. You aren't even arguing for depth, but to keep the established charecters.

If you're suggesting GGXXAC, they have 4 normals and 1 that's Dust which means characters get an arsenal of 5 attacks. In MvC3 they will be getting 3 or maybe even 4 if the Exchange button does function like Dust. So yeah, GGXXAC has more buttons still. If we want MvC3 to match the same depth as GGXXAC had with it's normals and variations, it sounds like they're going to have to rework the Magic Series and make it more complex, IMO. And that is something they won't want to do since they're aiming to make this game accessible. They could always take the Melty Blood route and make combos work like how they did in that. SRK will rage though.

As for depth VS established characters, keeping established characters with the same play style and feel doesn't sacrifice depth in my eyes. You can create depth from changing/giving universal options to characters and altering their moves like you mention earlier. Having less frame start up or on lag actually does open up options which is what they could have done. Again, I really can't argue much on this due to not knowing the Exchange button well enough.

The Exchange button seems like that new universal option that I was mentioning earlier, so I'll wait on this to see how much depth it can create before passing judgement on that.

Sure he would. Maybe not what you hold dear to your old fart heart, but he still would be. So Makoto isn't true rushdown anymore, but instead is a mix of rushdown and abnormal footsies in SSIV, she's still Makoto. There's nothing wrong with changing established charecters when the game you're taking them from is still crap.

But the Makoto from SFIII was a lot better. While the tools and strategies she had wasn't easy to translate into SSFIV, I felt she kind of lost that charm and play style she had in III.

Not important, again. Arakune lost A LOT going from BB 1 to BB 2. He's still doing fine.

Off topic: I wish my Rachel was doing that fine.

And MvC2 was nothing more than a surprise accident. Had certain things not happened, the game would have been ****, completely. It ended up good, but in its basis, its complete ****. The game needs a massive overhall if it hopes to have a future.

A massive overhaul shouldn't include changing the control scheme in order to balance out. I wish they would have tried to build and improve rather than scrapping something in return for accessibility to gather new fans. MvC2 was already easy to get into.

Nah, they can still be changed. Eddie in GGXX was incredibly limited and changed in the next two versions of the game.

I think you mean fourth version of the game. If I recall, Eddie sucked in Slash.

The "depth" that increased for Eddie was mainly fixing the dumb nerfs and weaknesses he had to make him a godly character. They changed things such as frame start up, improving his shadow moves, giving him a really good Force Break, improved normals (?), and more. Arksys added upon what Eddie already had in his arsenal and even gave some. Sure they'll improve characters the same way in MvC3, but removing buttons could hinder that.

Nah, doesn't have to. Arksys uses few buttons but has huge depth. The number of buttons does in no way correlate to depth, as long as you're willing to develop them with this button scheme in mind.

I find the Magic Series something different compared to GG and BB. Magic Series are generally straight forward and easy instead of mix and matching a bunch of different buttons that are never in the same pattern. IMO, in order for them to reach that depth with just normals, they're going to have to complicate the Magic Series like I said earlier.

Also, this isn't like the TvC layout really, its far closer to GG.

IMO, it feels like GG if GG had one less button having it be P, K, HS, and D.
In other words, something similar to BlazBlue (which was something that worked for its own game despite me liking GG more)


This post isn't a direct attack or anything, it was just to continue on the debate (which might not be wise, really). Just my thoughts for what I think on the game at the moment. I am looking forward to this game, and I'm interested to see how different this game will turn out from the other Versus games. I'm not judging it with what we're given right now. I'm interested to see how the Exchange button and all the new things that'll be added to the overall system.

 

[Thrillhouse-vh.]

I'd actually be really surprised if Shuma made the cut. As much as I like him I have my doubts for some reason...

I am expecting him not to be either, but saying that charge characters will be entirely different because of this. That's a bad change.

 

[OneWingSephiroth]

Who says Dictator is going to be in this game? He certainly isn't a confirmed character yet. This brings me back to my point, you are judging this control scheme based on the idea that nothing is going to change except the control scheme itself. This isn't MvC2. They are actually attempting to balance this one. They aren't going to change the control scheme so radically and not compensate the charecters for it.

It's not about Dictator being in the game or not, it's about how his character will have severe problems trying to get into a game that has less buttons, again, read my examples instead of believing that I'm trying to say Dictator will be in the game, which I did not say. Also, you are ridiculous to assume that they would "never" attempt to balance the game, are you kidding me here?

First and foremost as I spoke to you earlier that the most balanced fighting games also happened to be flukes, because you will never know how "balanced" the game is until everyone starts to play it regardless of the fact. SFII:HF is the most balanced SF game of all time, however that was a fluke, VF4:Evo is the most balanced VF game of all time, that was a fluke, same with T5:DR, etc, etc.

You cannot know for sure if what you "do", or remove, or "add" will have either a large or big affect to the game. Lastly, again, I am not going to post up again on how overlapping commands can potentially make certain characters EVEN BETTER then they were from previous Marvel vs games, you'll need to go back and read my things more thoroughly again.

~About SF:IV and Makoto~

That isn't even the point here, the fact is, DID Ryu lose the ability to use one of his normals going into SF:IV in contrast to SFII? Did he have to resort to using Direction+Attack to do a medium strike now? Was Guile forced to doing the samething? Even for Makoto?

The answer is : NO. Comparing the transition from SFII to SF:IV is absolutely ridiculous because they didn't lose out on any of their control schemes so although "move properties" changed slightly, they remain fundamentally the same, period. If say SF:IV forced a button layout similar to say what happens in TvC, then you would see a drastic change up of how characters play.

Guile would no longer be able to jab while holding a charge, because of direction+attacks for medium, and if you plan to use a medium, and if you try to use a jab then you lose the option to keep a charge. Now that's significant change here. Now that is a HUGE change, because Guile can no longer keep barraging and poking with SB setups that would have been present since SFII. However, nothing of this magnitude is shown in SF:IV. Stop using SF:IV as an excuse, when it doesn't even work in the purpose of what your trying to say, because SF:IV's button lay out is the same, and they did not have to drastically change their overall gameplay for it, everyone is fundamentally the same.

Btw, Makoto also works "slightly" different is the fact that there is also NO Parry System as well, something that greatly benefited her character within 3S (She could deal with projectiles far, far better in 3s due to this, parry system forced players to having to rush down with everyone, something that greatly benefited her playstyle and what she could do, etc, etc). However that had more to do with how 3rd Strike works being the b*stard child of the legit SF Series, and a different statement all together. Ask any GREAT 3rd Strike Player who played Makoto competitively in 3S and they are going to give you the same answer I just gave you here.

If you "disagree" show me a video to where Makoto is now resorted to complete zoning, or turtling instead of her fundamental rushdown values from 3s into SSF:IV. If you can somehow show me multiple videos of her being so drastically altered from her 3s version, then I'll believe you. However every single HIGH LVL SSF:IV video of Makoto showcases she's still using her fundamental values from SFIII:3s.

Fact is simple on why your argument for SF:IV is flawed, and stupid and that is because Makoto isn't going into a game with less Attack Buttons, "had" that been the case, the way she played would have been heavily altered.

I've already given examples of games that have less buttons but more depth. You aren't even arguing for depth, but to keep the established charecters.

I tell you again, and again, that this statement is absolutely flawed here, because ONE, those characters within that particular Fighting game did not go from one game in which they had more buttons, to one that had less. Name off a time in the Guilty Gear series in which you went from more buttons to less? Please do? Name a time Tekken went from it's LP, RP, LK, RK to one less or two less? Please do.

The answer again, NO. So how the h*ll could these fighting games be compared to the transition from MvC1, or MvC2 to MvC3? How? Just because GG has depth? Yet, you forgot that GG has been built with the SAME BUTTON SCHEME through out all of it's gameplay with the addition of a NEW BUTTON. Again, your logic here is a complete waste of time and merits nothing to your argument. It's not like Sol was now forced to having to work with less buttons, having to deal with new overlapping commands which in turn would change his CHARACTER GREATLY, if GG decided to have one less attack button. However if Strider was in MvC3, he would have to deal with that problem.

Sure he would. Maybe not what you hold dear to your old fart heart, but he still would be. So Makoto isn't true rushdown anymore, but instead is a mix of rushdown and abnormal footsies in SSIV, she's still Makoto. There's nothing wrong with changing established charecters when the game you're taking them from is still crap.

So basically, Gouki would work within the same premises as Ryu, and would then share similarities even more remotely closer to Ryu, thus no longer truly being to his own uniqueness right? If you had "half" the knowledge here, you would realize that Gouki plays super unique to himself is because he HAS the Air Fireball. This is why he plays so much more differently then either Ryu or Ken, because he can use it as a superior zoning tool, and an offensive buffer, or rush down tactic, or positioning tool that neither Ryu nor Ken have, which is why as a character he has crap stamina because of things like his Air Fireball he has the best rushdown out of any of those three shoto's.

If you remove that, you remove a huge strategy base that Gouki would have had that was unique only to his character as not only a Shoto but in comparison to EVERYONE ELSE, again, making it stupid, considering since Day 1 when Gouki was made to be competitive, he's been like this. You want to know one of the biggest reasons why Gouki is one of the best in SSF:IV? Air Fireball...remove that...hmm, his offensive gameplan would deteriorate by ALOT.

Makoto reference is "up" on top, look to that again.

Not important, again. Arakune lost A LOT going from BB 1 to BB 2. He's still doing fine.

Did Arakune lose many of his specials or ability to throw out a normal that he previously had available but will no longer unless he forces direction commands? Because that's what would happen to many characters if they were to appear in MvC3? If Arakune happened to lose that much, then I'll agree with you.

And MvC2 was nothing more than a surprise accident. Had certain things not happened, the game would have been ****, completely. It ended up good, but in its basis, its complete ****. The game needs a massive overhall if it hopes to have a future.

Are you kidding me? Tell me in your great detail how much differently has Storm played from COTA, to XvsSF, to MvC2? Considering all of her forms are still Runaway. Or how about Ice Man from COTA to MvC2? How about Capt. America from MvC1 to MvC2? Elaborate?

Because guess what? Although they lost a few tools (due to lack of mediums), they fundamentally were intact. 3-buttons will drastically change up how Capt. America, Storm, Iceman and all the likes will play, drastically.

You don't need a "massive overhaul" for the future...why do you think Street Figher III BOMBED out in contrast to all other SF games? Because it played so DRASTICALLY different from all the other ones, removing so many fundamentals, strategies all the while not adding new and improved ones is the reason why it was dead for so many years until over bandwagoned on it after they saw the Daigo video of 2004. Overhauling is not necessary if you already have a great formula.

Lastly, MvC2 was GREAT because the fundamentals of all the characters stayed intact meaning that if you played MvC1 Strider and just jumped onto MvC2 that the basic fundamentals from those games would work in transition to Strider still, and to that the depth of strategy to the game and it's a WIN WIN.

If you play MvC2 Strider, and all of a sudden Capcom has Strider in MvC3 and you pick him up to see how his fundamentals are you'd be like WTF just happened? Remember to read that carefully before you respond to how 3-buttons will be "better" then the button schemes that was previously already established for the Marve vs Series.

Nah, they can still be changed. Eddie in GGXX was incredibly limited and changed in the next two versions of the game.

Curious how this has anything to do with Marvel vs going from 6 buttons, to 4 buttons, to 3 buttons in transition to the Marvel vs Characters?

Nah, doesn't have to. Arksys uses few buttons but has huge depth. The number of buttons does in no way correlate to depth, as long as you're willing to develop them with this button scheme in mind.

Your talking about a character who was played to be built within that button scheme, and yet you keep dodging the part that the characters within the Marvel vs Series, were already built in within a 6-button scheme but are now being transitioned into a 3-button scheme which will in turn limit many of them due to how they already work, or in some cases, overpower them even more so because they will benefit from them.

Is that logic too hard for you to comprehend?

Its refuted because its based on the faulty assumption that these characters should stay exactly the same, and you're entire basis stems from the idea that they shouldn't change because of the past. I guess you're up for using Morrigan's sprite again too then. I mean, its an established sprite, let's just keep it. MvC2 was near trash, the game needs an overhall.
Also, this isn't like the TvC layout really, its far closer to GG.

This is the most unintellectual quote I've yet to state against.

First off, READ THIS CAREFULLY AGAIN

Strider has over 10+ Specials, all of his normals are important, ALL OF his tools are what makes him play so unique. Look to how ClockWork uses Strider in MvC2, or even go back to people using Strider in MvC1.

"IF" Strider was put into the game of MvC3, he would be forced to LOSING...remember LOSING his many of his specials because there are not enough buttons to compensate for all of his already established specials. This would mean that the Creators would be FORCED to having to directly take out alot of his special move sets and choosing which one goes in, and they would also have to be FORCED to do even more overlapping commands just to simply try and put him in.

By doing this, you will directly remove the fundamentals of how Strider is as a character, and more importantly you will be TAKING AWAY alot of his already variable tools.

This would mean that within MvC3...Strider will only have ONE form of teleporting...ONE from 6 different positions that he was capable of teleporting from on the screen in previous Marvel vs Games. This would mean that Strider would only have ONE form of clinging onto the Wall. How about Striders Charge Attacks, how do you add all of his animal specials in when each of them hit different points of the screen, and were all different commands? How about Strider's Bomb? How about Striders slashes?

Explain to me in great detail (not pertaining to GG), of how a character like him will be compensated for the "better". Again, I would like to hear it from you if you disagree with me, and I don't want to hear "Well Capcom will do it so we don't know yet" bs either.

The comparison of GG characters to what will happen to MvC3 characters is the worse comparison and excuse because the GG characters did not have to ever deal with having to go into a "new" game with less attack buttons to use.

Whenever I respiond to your post, its like I'm talking to Steinbeck about modern man and his opinion on how bad everything new is.

Yes, that's because this whole time, my logic of trying to use a Marvel vs Games to compare with a Marvel vs Game is not conceivable, while you are using a Guilty Gear game to try and prove your case to a Marvel vs Game that plays absolutely nothing like a Guilty Gear game...hmm, yeah, the logic here is awesome!

Again, next time, talk about examples of how Marvel vs Characters from previous versions who were built in with a 6-button lay out, 4-button+2 assist lay out will work BETTER in a 3-button+2 extra button lay out. No more talking about another game that has absolutely zero references to the game of Marvel vs.

So give me your educated mind of how characters with already tons of specials, certain charge characters (Guile, Bison, Hulk etc, etc) and overlapping commands will work better in a MvC3 button scheme in contrast to their other versions which had the 6-button or MvC2 setup w/o any of the problems that I stated above to not arise. Yes, I'm believing it now...you've NEVER PLAYED the Marvel vs Series to a moderate level, because anyone who has played it moderately or know the ins of the game would see to what I'm trying to get at.

 

[kr3wman]

leaked gameplay featuring Ironman vs Ryu, confirms Captain Commando and his old AA assist

looks like Ironman will still have his infinite...