Ultimate Bowser MU Analysis and Discussion

[meleebrawler]

y'know, K rool has a subforum. All the great heavyweights that are better than bowser do, such as Pac-Man.

Not sure how you think K Rool is great when he was definitely losing to Snake in that fight before cheesing the kill with a Final Smash. That N-Air looks ripped from Dedede except slower and it hits them away instead of up so it probably won't combo. Comparing his F-Air to Bowser's B-Air isn't accurate. Comes out as fast as our F-Air, with about 12% base damage and a smaller hitbox. Also doesn't autocancel from shorthop. I'm most disappointed in that move.

Crown looks good. I would definitely argue that looks like a great tool for controlling space almost as good as Link's Boomerang. It doesn't have rang's godlike endlag but the crown travels super slowly which is what you'd want. But most of the moves we saw in that short match were just aerials and in that regard he looks less effective than Bowser or Dedede. Wait to see more moves, like that Dsmash that allegedly buries or if any of his throws can kill or combo.

The stomp is a forward tilt. It lacks the smash sparkle and he isn't crouching to deliver it.

In those forums I raised the point of short-hop firing his blunderbuss and then vacuuming being a good anti-approach tactic for him. How good do you think short-hop flaming will be with Bowser's frame 3 jumpsquat?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The stomp is a forward tilt. It lacks the smash sparkle and he isn't crouching to deliver it.

In those forums I raised the point of short-hop firing his blunderbuss and then vacuuming being a good anti-approach tactic for him. How good do you think short-hop flaming will be with Bowser's frame 3 jumpsquat?

No smash sparkle is interesting. As in other developer mode footage while some visual effects are missing, smash sparkles are not one of them from what I've seen. However I also can't say with certainty that every single smash attack has that effect. But the lack of crouch frames is no issue. You can perform a Dtilt if your crouch and A inputs are read on the same frame. Buffering also allows you to do it with ease. Whatever that move is, we need to wait for more footage to confirm if it's a tilt or smash. Whatever it is, it's as slow as a smash attack for sure.

Short hop fire breath is a poor choice. At least in Smash 4. Every character in the game can block fire breath and dodge roll behind him for a punish if the roll is well timed. Appraoching somebody with fire breath only creates more scenarios where that roll has enough distance to allow them to get behind Bowser. We don't know how shields will behave in the final game. The demo build's shields do not work consistently. But I assume Bowser's fire breath may run into the same problem in Ultimate, regardless of a shorter jumpsquat. And the only reward you'd get on this mixup is tacking on some extra percent while also opening up bowser to a punish if they escape early. I'd sooner think about how that jump squat improves other attacks, like N-air followups or the viability of short hop Fair/Bair, especially out of shield.

I know of no confirmed changes to Fire Breath specifically, but I know that all attacks have increased hitlag (but not shieldlag). So that creates more reward on hit for projectiles. So if I were optimistic, I'd say Fire Breath will be harder for the victim to escape as each flame leaves them in hitlag for longer.

 

[meleebrawler]

No smash sparkle is interesting. As in other developer mode footage while some visual effects are missing, smash sparkles are not one of them from what I've seen. However I also can't say with certainty that every single smash attack has that effect. But the lack of crouch frames is no issue. You can perform a Dtilt if your crouch and A inputs are read on the same frame. Buffering also allows you to do it with ease. Whatever that move is, we need to wait for more footage to confirm if it's a tilt or smash. Whatever it is, it's as slow as a smash attack for sure.

Short hop fire breath is a poor choice. At least in Smash 4. Every character in the game can block fire breath and dodge roll behind him for a punish if the roll is well timed. Appraoching somebody with fire breath only creates more scenarios where that roll has enough distance to allow them to get behind Bowser. We don't know how shields will behave in the final game. The demo build's shields do not work consistently. But I assume Bowser's fire breath may run into the same problem in Ultimate, regardless of a shorter jumpsquat. And the only reward you'd get on this mixup is tacking on some extra percent while also opening up bowser to a punish if they escape early. I'd sooner think about how that jump squat improves other attacks, like N-air followups or the viability of short hop Fair/Bair, especially out of shield.

I know of no confirmed changes to Fire Breath specifically, but I know that all attacks have increased hitlag (but not shieldlag). So that creates more reward on hit for projectiles. So if I were optimistic, I'd say Fire Breath will be harder for the victim to escape as each flame leaves them in hitlag for longer.

But you DO see the smash sparkle in the same trailer, on both Bowser's and K. Rool's forward smashes (the boxing glove). And the thing with most dtilts is that they're designed to look like they're delivered from a character's crouch. We've seen K. Rool's, he's basically on all fours. It would be jarring to have him immediately stand up to stomp forward.

Don't forget how you couldn't space with Fire Breath's max range due to it being flinchless, which would have prevented most of those roll scenarios you described if it worked more like Charizard's.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Don't forget how you couldn't space with Fire Breath's max range due to it being flinchless, which would have prevented most of those roll scenarios you described if it worked more like Charizard's.

You can do the same trick to Charizard as well. Shields don't care if something is a windbox. If it does damage it will apply the appropriate amount of shieldlag/shieldstun according to that damage value. The reason people don't know about this hard punish method for Flamethrower/Fire Breath is because neither move is threatening enough that serious players, doing their homework on the matchup, say to themselves "now how do I get past fire breath...". Only Ganondorf before the Down B buff, and debatably Roy had such a deficit of options for dealing with that move considering they physically had trouble just getting over it for a punish, in addition to their lack of projectile attack.

Although I am reminded that the dodge roll trick will fail if the Fire Breath is point blank. New flames are generated every seven frames. Fast enough to catch people during their vulnerability window of their dodge. The problem is that the flames do not travel at an appropriate speed along the ground in which you are pelted by them every seven frames. Still, I can't imagine getting so close to somebody and doing something so committal as Fire Breath. Mix up your options, sure. But I'd want something with as much reward as a Bowser Bomb or Fsmash delivers.

 

[meleebrawler]

You can do the same trick to Charizard as well. Shields don't care if something is a windbox. If it does damage it will apply the appropriate amount of shieldlag/shieldstun according to that damage value. The reason people don't know about this hard punish method for Flamethrower/Fire Breath is because neither move is threatening enough that serious players, doing their homework on the matchup, say to themselves "now how do I get past fire breath...". Only Ganondorf before the Down B buff, and debatably Roy had such a deficit of options for dealing with that move considering they physically had trouble just getting over it for a punish, in addition to their lack of projectile attack.

Although I am reminded that the dodge roll trick will fail if the Fire Breath is point blank. New flames are generated every seven frames. Fast enough to catch people during their vulnerability window of their dodge. The problem is that the flames do not travel at an appropriate speed along the ground in which you are pelted by them every seven frames. Still, I can't imagine getting so close to somebody and doing something so committal as Fire Breath. Mix up your options, sure. But I'd want something with as much reward as a Bowser Bomb or Fsmash delivers.

To be honest, when I was describing the hop-and-flame I was thinking more along the lines of catching people short-hopping than just spacing with it, sort of like how K. Rool can use his slow-moving cannon shot to restrict space in the air. If you catch people jumping with fire breath I'd imagine they'd have a harder time pulling off the escape you describe, no? Not to mention dodge staling making any kind of dodge slower when done repeatedly, so it pays to keep in mind their habits doing so.

Either way, the indirect airdodge changes will likely further increase the move's use in tacking on safe percent on weak-recovery opponents (but not before going out to try and smack them first). To think, with the nerf Sheik got to her up b (no invincibility until she disappears), you could actually bully her recovery this way now!

 

[Darches]

I use shorthop firebreath pretty often to catch some approaches and pressure shields but honestly it's one of Bowser's worst moves; more often then not I'm just punished or worse, it tickles their shield with no impact on the match.

Also, ZeRo said Ultimate Bowser feels weak.

 

[Deleted member]

I use shorthop firebreath pretty often to catch some approaches and pressure shields but honestly it's one of Bowser's worst moves; more often then not I'm just punished or worse, it tickles their shield with no impact on the match.

Also, ZeRo said Ultimate Bowser feels weak.

The unfortunate truth. I feel like Bowser is one of the only characters that doesn't benefit from the added speed.

 

[meleebrawler]

The unfortunate truth. I feel like Bowser is one of the only characters that doesn't benefit from the added speed.

His jumpsquat was the biggest thing holding back his mobility, how does he not benefit from this? If you mean his tier position won't get better, then I'm sorry. but I'm not gonna fault a character for others getting better at the same time.

 

[S_B]

y'know, K rool has a subforum. All the great heavyweights that are better than bowser do, such as Pac-Man.

Yeah, because the Bowser forum is a flurry of activity. At least comparing other characters to Bowser is discussion about Bowser.

Not sure how you think K Rool is great when he was definitely losing to Snake in that fight before cheesing the kill with a Final Smash.

It's the tools that are being analyzed, not the skill of the player.

Also, 90% sure the match was scripted, as the likelihood of KKR getting that cannonball launch to fair to cannonball hit is pretty damn low, plus Snake chose to run to the right toward the thing instead of shielding, jumping, or anything that would've evaded the Fair.

In the grand scheme of things, I feel like the new characters are amazingly well designed while older characters are getting thrown scraps and left to flounder after that.

Ganondorf got his sword but is still a clone while having no moves that he actually uses in any of the games he was in. Bowser could've had a slow moving fireball like in his very first appearance, but we're still stuck with firebreath, a move so bad that it's more likely to get Bowser punished for using it than actually doing any damage. Even landed in optimal conditions, it'll do ~15-20%, which is pathetic for the risk involved in using it.

I use shorthop firebreath pretty often to catch some approaches and pressure shields but honestly it's one of Bowser's worst moves; more often then not I'm just punished or worse, it tickles their shield with no impact on the match.

It's sad because I had hoped the devs could've figured out some neat frame trap with FB where catching a shielding opponent with it near point blank always led to a shield break, but no, it just sucks.

Also, ZeRo said Ultimate Bowser feels weak.

The fact that side+B wasn't KOing Gdorf around 150% is worrisome. I know he's heavy, but the move had more knockback than that in SSB4.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yeah, because the Bowser forum is a flurry of activity. At least comparing other characters to Bowser is discussion about Bowser.

Then can you make more of an effort when it comes to the facts? K Rool's Fair is Bowser's B-Air". Like, c'mon. It's a minute and a half match. You can thumb through it for info or look for credible sources doing the same. More than enough information to conclude it's not comparable to Bowser's B-Air but rather F-Air in which case it's a worse move (1 more startup, 1 more landing lag, doesn't shorthop AC, smaller hitbox, slightly less damage which means more likely than not less kill power until we have KB stats). It's possible there's more to the move that we don't know based on that footage, but our sense of imagination is not preferred in the face of hard facts.

In the grand scheme of things, I feel like the new characters are amazingly well designed while older characters are getting thrown scraps and left to flounder after that.

Ganondorf got his sword but is still a clone while having no moves that he actually uses in any of the games he was in. Bowser could've had a slow moving fireball like in his very first appearance, but we're still stuck with firebreath, a move so bad that it's more likely to get Bowser punished for using it than actually doing any damage. Even landed in optimal conditions, it'll do ~15-20%, which is pathetic for the risk involved in using it.

I take it by the ganon comparison you're saying Fire Breath is not representative of Bowser? Well it's pulled from the 3D representations of the character. While the fireballs hail from 2D games. Both attacks get about as much representation, You couldn't have Fire Breath in a 2D game since such a move would be unavoidable without running straight away from it. While Fireballs would be less threatening in a 3D space as you can move laterally around it rather than only jumping over. In general Smash 4 Bowser most closely resembles his only full game playable appearance in Mario & Luigi Bowser's Inside Story. Where he's depicted more like a brute than a car or monster in Melee/Brawl. And I adore the change. No Bowser game has come out since, so I don't have one to point to and greedily say "hey, rework him to look like this now". Unlike Ganon whose appearance and abilities change with every game. The lack of reworking for Ganon is the benchmark for how frustrating this can be. Definitely not Bowser.

And yes, Fire Breath is a textbook example of a move with high risk low reward. Nobody here debating that. But characters aren't typically as great as their worst special move. Sheik isn't as good as Burst Grenade, Sonic isn't as good as Homing Attack. Worthless moves in Smash 4, but the characters had other qualities. Pick on Fire Breath because it's a move that can use some upgrades. But don't pick on it because you think it's an accurate representation of Bowser's viability as a whole.

The fact that side+B wasn't KOing Gdorf around 150% is worrisome. I know he's heavy, but the move had more knockback than that in SSB4.

Source? Doesn't have to be a video source but a description of how the move was used. What stage was it? Was it landed on a platform? Was it landed at the end of the stage or center stage? On a stage with no platforms, you're aiming for the edge in order to cover survival DI. Have you tried comparing any Side Bs seen in existing videos to Smash 4 in terms of kill power? I haven't.

 

[meleebrawler]

Source? Doesn't have to be a video source but a description of how the move was used. What stage was it? Was it landed on a platform? Was it landed at the end of the stage or center stage? On a stage with no platforms, you're aiming for the edge in order to cover survival DI. Have you tried comparing any Side Bs seen in existing videos to Smash 4 in terms of kill power? I haven't.

You must also factor in rage (or lack thereof). After all it's not uncommon for Bowser to have a good amount of it in 4. Perhaps training mode would actually be helpful for this comparison.

 

[S_B]

You must also factor in rage (or lack thereof). After all it's not uncommon for Bowser to have a good amount of it in 4. Perhaps training mode would actually be helpful for this comparison.

To clarify, I mean when Kurogane mentioned Gdorf surviving it earlier in the thread.

Then can you make more of an effort when it comes to the facts?

The facts are that KKR has two projectiles, a counter, a stomp that can bury people, a Dair that spikes without launching him into the abyss as well (I assume, but it looks very much like Ganondorf's), and an fsmash that's faster than Bowser's.

Pointing out the frame difference between his Fair and Bowser's Bair (when they look similar enough that many have drawn comparisons) is a bit beside the point.

But I digress, as there's little point in arguing about the state of characters in an unreleased game, though at least three of the best SSB players in the world (including #1 and #2) have said that Bowser isn't very good after playing him while 2 of those 3 have at least said KKR has potential and they're excited to play as him.

Finally bought a used Switch yesterday so we'll see what happens when demo time comes around...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Pointing out the frame difference between his Fair and Bowser's Bair (when they look similar enough that many have drawn comparisons) is a bit beside the point.

You brought up the comparison. And I already had the data handy. Don't blame me for correcting you.

But I digress, as there's little point in arguing about the state of characters in an unreleased game, though at least three of the best SSB players in the world (including #1 and #2) have said that Bowser isn't very good after playing him while 2 of those 3 have at least said KKR has potential and they're excited to play as him.

I'm beginning to think I'd get my point across much easier if I made an unscripted, unresearched youtube video rather than typing a single word. And I'm not even gonna touch the "number 1 and 2 best ssb players in the world" comment.

The problem here is that you think every character in this game is either great or awful. With no spectrum in between. It's exhausting to look at a game in such binary terms, isn't it? And from the sound of things you're only in it for the For Glory experience, so why even concern yourself with tiers? Play the game how you want. Play what characters you want. You don't need to write an essay of an excuse when a new smash game is coming out. Certainly not an essay seemingly aimed to put down people interested in bowser. What did we do to you?

 

[Darches]

... you're saying Fire Breath is not representative of Bowser? Well it's pulled from the 3D representations of the character. While the fireballs hail from 2D games.

'scuse me? I'd prefer a chargeable fire breath with different attacks depending on the charge.

Like you say, fire breath is an example of a bad move where bAir for example is a good move. But such extremes linearize gameplay by reducing choice and make it boring. Bad design.
I thought removal of the epic uThrow would lead to good changes (like stronger fThrow/bThrow) it but it appears they just straight up nerfed Bowser. His buffs don't make up for his nerfs, especially when compared to the rest of the cast. Dark Samus will annihilate him (unless they got rid of zAir hitbox and kept bad grab).

The fact that side+B wasn't KOing Gdorf around 150% is worrisome. I know he's heavy, but the move had more knockback than that in SSB4.

Sauce? On Sm4sh 3DS (smaller blast zones) sideB kills Mario at 124% from center stage. Ganondorf dies at 135%. This is without rage. If what you say is true then it's been nerfed to hell. I hope that was without the 20% singles buff...

... only in it for the For Glory experience, so why even concern yourself with tiers? Play the game how you want. Play what characters you want.

I wanna play Ganondorf! But he's too ****. Ike is... Almost acceptable, although I feel he gets bodied pretty hard by the top tiers, sometimes harder than Bowser. He has no combo breakers and his counter is uselessly slow. Throw in a mediocre recovery and BAM! Low tier despite having some pretty incredible moves. Whoops, I'm ranting off-topic. But anyway I disagree with you. It's not about fun, it's about winning. As for that "spectrum", I'd put the new Bowser in mid-low tier for singles, and low-bottom tier for free-for-alls.

 

[meleebrawler]

If you're really playing to win no matter what, you wouldn't be here complaining about how non-viable a character is, instead of just working with one that is.

I still stand by the example of Smash 4 Fox being nerfed on paper yet still far better than he was in Brawl. Until we fully explore what everything new in Ultimate allows Bowser to do we can't reasonably call his tier placement.

 

[S_B]

You brought up the comparison. And I already had the data handy. Don't blame me for correcting you.

Not blaming you, but I feel you're neglecting the rest of the tools KKR has (and the real reasons I'm jealous AF).

And I'm not even gonna touch the "number 1 and 2 best ssb players in the world" comment.

It's pretty well established that ZeRo and Nairo are the #1 and 2 SSB4 players in the world, and both of them have said Bowser is crap now. In Nairo's case, he told me himself when he responded to my comment on chat about how he should main Bowser in SSBU.

The problem here is that you think every character in this game is either great or awful.

There's a spectrum, but that spectrum only matters when no character basically invalidates another.

All of SSB4's heavies were invalidated by Sheik and ZSS, with only Bowser and DK climbing out of that hole, thanks to their throw followups (M2K's DK against Sheik was a treat to watch at that point).

With those gone, heavies are going to need something else to compensate, and "better frame data" ain't gonna cut it when nearly everyone has that across the board.

And from the sound of things you're only in it for the For Glory experience

I was power ranked in Maine at #9 in the state, playing entirely Bowser, actually. I made my tournament debut with pre-throw followup Bowser, beating the #7 PR and taking the #5 to a close GF.

That aside, I want Bowser to not be crap because it'd be nice to see him and other heavies in more high profile tournaments.

However, I feel like Sakurai is kinda like a kid with new toys who's forgetting about his old ones.

Just hoping post launch balance is on point...

 

[meleebrawler]

As far as analysis and speculation goes, everyone is a rookie again when a new game comes, no matter how good you were at the previous game. Anybody can be wrong, including pros. ESAM already got Dark Samus's dash attack angle incorrect, and grossly overestimated how fast her roll is compared to Samus.
So far I've seen nobody try to do anything different from Smash 4, only attempting the same old tricks and giving up when they fail. How can that be considered a comprehensive assessment?

 

[Darches]

The only significant changes that affect the neutral are the new airdodge and ledge attack not being garbage. Otherwise the gameplay is just faster and easier to execute. Doing stuff out of dash isn't even new for Bowser, who had one of the shortest dash stops in Sm4sh. Since the gameplay is so similar, vague assessments are easy. It's the reason I can call Bowser in mid-low tier already. His new things like shorthop fAir are nice, but without his kill throws he'll struggle greatly. Bowser's future gameplay pattern is much easier to see than Ganondorf's, who has been changed more drastically and will benefit the most from the 20% singles buff.

Nearly all of my tier predictions and meta strategies are correct for any game... As an example, I was able to predict the dominance of weapons in Destiny MONTHS in advance. But nobody believed me until it happened. Also, every single thing I touched was nerfed into the ground. But you can only nerf shotguns and snipers so much :D I also pioneered the invisibility meta that nobody copied. Lotsa free wins and fun times for me.

 

[S_B]

As far as analysis and speculation goes, everyone is a rookie again when a new game comes, no matter how good you were at the previous game. Anybody can be wrong, including pros. ESAM already got Dark Samus's dash attack angle incorrect, and grossly overestimated how fast her roll is compared to Samus.
So far I've seen nobody try to do anything different from Smash 4, only attempting the same old tricks and giving up when they fail. How can that be considered a comprehensive assessment?

I mean, I'm not that optimistic, but I WANT you to be right.

As for playing to win, I'll weigh in: My entire pro foray was built around pushing Bowser as hard as I could, as far as I could, and I feel I did pretty well for the time I put in and my other health issues.

In the grand scheme of things, I want Bowser to have a real fighting chance. Tough matchups are fine, but matchups that make me roll my eyes? Eh, less of those, please...

 

[meleebrawler]

I mean, I'm not that optimistic, but I WANT you to be right.

As for playing to win, I'll weigh in: My entire pro foray was built around pushing Bowser as hard as I could, as far as I could, and I feel I did pretty well for the time I put in and my other health issues.

In the grand scheme of things, I want Bowser to have a real fighting chance. Tough matchups are fine, but matchups that make me roll my eyes? Eh, less of those, please...

I'm pretty sure the system changes and nerfs to top tiers will make those superheavy matchups more bearable, kill combos or no.

So about Fire Breath being unrewarding, take a look at this moment:

31.5% damage without the 1v1 modifier. Also note that it very much does NOT have the flinchless windbox at the end.

 

[S_B]

I'm pretty sure the system changes and nerfs to top tiers will make those superheavy matchups more bearable, kill combos or no.

So about Fire Breath being unrewarding, take a look at this moment:

31.5% damage without the 1v1 modifier. Also note that it very much does NOT have the flinchless windbox at the end.

It had the flinchless box against a recovering Samus at once point in a video we saw, and while it's nice to see it do that much damage, it may just be because Ridley is so damn big.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Holy crap. That is a lot of damage. But it looks to me like that Ridley didn't DI much so he kept being hit. But damn.

This is gonna be so good for edge guarding and just racking up damage. Bad recoveries like Falcon's Up B are gonna suffer so much from this. Or we may not even need to flamethrower and just go offstage to F-air seeing how edge guarding works in Ultimate.

 

[Darches]

Vs Ridley with *1.2 damage, I'd expect that kind of damage. But it seems in addition to (almost) full flinching, its damage has been buffed from 1.2 -> 1.25 (+4.16%) and if he wasn't DI'ing then the push has been reduced. Or maybe it's just a heavy trait. Looks good though.

With improved neutral tools and still OK kill options, I think we're looking at mid-tier. That kind of damage output will mitigate his reduced knockbacks.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The windbox was only at the very tip of the flame when used from the ground. Approximately 5% of the move's total range. And as the breath gets shorter, the last hit is typically a windbox hit, which you can even see from that clip. When spewed into the air instead of into the ground, breath's range is about 40-50 percent a windbox. I used to have a diagram I drew after extensive testing in Smash 4 but don't anymore.

Well I made a guess that Fire Breath would be harder to escape due to increased hitlag in Ultimate. That's source is only one example but it looks like I was on the money. Couldn't be sure since this is the first time I've witnessed Fire Breath hitting something in Ultimate at close or mid range and the move is so weak per hit that it probably wouldn't have made a significant difference. Also, it appears the endlag has been shaved from 33 to 31 based on that clip. Every little bit helps when it comes to avoiding a punish for successfully using Fire Breath on stage.

Edit: Actually I may be wrong about that endlag change and it's the flashing red visual effect throwing me off regarding when the animation goes into its end state. Something like that gave me trouble with Smash 4's version as well.

 

[S_B]

Found one of Kurogane's matches:

I know why he likes Dsmash for hitting enemies on the ledge now.

Wish we had footage of the match where Ganon survived a side b at 150% to know the circumstances...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Found one of Kurogane's matches:

Whoa. Is that our Usmash landing hitbox? That's 16% damage, and Usmash is twice in the staleness queue at this point so it's come along way since the puny 6% hit. Good find KuroganeHammer

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I kept up throwing and it's the worst feeling lmao

 

[S_B]

I kept up throwing and it's the worst feeling lmao

Did you know this was being filmed? And were you the one who used side B on Gdorf at ~150% or did you see someone else do it?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Did you know this was being filmed? And were you the one who used side B on Gdorf at ~150% or did you see someone else do it?

I asked it to be filmed. Also no I saw someone else use side b on Ganondorf before I played the demo.

 

[meleebrawler]

Found one of Kurogane's matches:

I know why he likes Dsmash for hitting enemies on the ledge now.

Wish we had footage of the match where Ganon survived a side b at 150% to know the circumstances...

Yeah, that's definitely footage of someone who needs to unlearn what he did in 4. Not a single dash-canceled tilt.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Yeah this is... An interesting match. Gonna point this out rn before i forget: looks like Jab cancels actions still have potential. He jabs 1 to grab in the video, even though it was executed slowly and there wasn't reaction from the Fox player either, still looks like this will work on certain characters in Ultimate to me.

Anyways yeah, this is a Smash 4 Bowser in Ultimate. But ask yourself guys ; what else could he have done anyways?
Bowser deals too much damage, has too much knockback, to make any combo or other sorts of techs (beside Jab cancels i guess) other characters can do.
Bowser in Ultimate just looks like a character who will just deal crazy damage and end stocks with a slow finisher, or Side B/F/Back Throw. Which looks... Kinda lame? Boring? I dont know.
We have a Flamethrower that can deal 30 damage now. An upthrow that deals 14 damage. An insane downthrow that deals a whopping 17 damage.
I think this is what Bowser is becoming now. A damage monster that just plays patiently (again...), racks up those damage and nothing else. No combos, no techs, no nothing, just plain use the massively damaging moves you're given and that's it. This is what I gather from this footage honestly.

 

[meleebrawler]

Some discussion.

Yeah this is... An interesting match. Gonna point this out rn before i forget: looks like Jab cancels actions still have potential. He jabs 1 to grab in the video, even though it was executed slowly and there wasn't reaction from the Fox player either, still looks like this will work on certain characters in Ultimate to me.

Anyways yeah, this is a Smash 4 Bowser in Ultimate. But ask yourself guys ; what else could he have done anyways?
Bowser deals too much damage, has too much knockback, to make any combo or other sorts of techs (beside Jab cancels i guess) other characters can do.
Bowser in Ultimate just looks like a character who will just deal crazy damage and end stocks with a slow finisher, or Side B/F/Back Throw. Which looks... Kinda lame? Boring? I dont know.
We have a Flamethrower that can deal 30 damage now. An upthrow that deals 14 damage. An insane downthrow that deals a whopping 17 damage.
I think this is what Bowser is becoming now. A damage monster that just plays patiently (again...), racks up those damage and nothing else. No combos, no techs, no nothing, just plain use the massively damaging moves you're given and that's it. This is what I gather from this footage honestly.

We still haven't seen what he can do with his utilt and faster jumpsquat in conjunction. You could only really use it defensively in 4 but now you can run and swipe people into prime juggling position. And his dtilt, though it probably doesn't combo, can set up nasty tech chases at low percents with it's tripping.

Bowser's a big heavy brute not really known for finesse. Though with all this damage, you could get edgeguards going much quicker.

 

[Darches]

An insane downthrow that deals a whopping 17 damage.

It deals 14.7% which isn't even close to insane; that's bad by SSB4 standards where other characters can easily deal 30%+ off a single grab against Bowser. Honestly Bowser's throw game has been neutered. I thought there'd at least be a combo at 0% but nope. On the bright side this makes Bowser a little easier to play since you won't have to time combos but... Definitely no higher than mid tier. Imma play Ridley for sure.

I know why he likes Dsmash for hitting enemies on the ledge now.

But it already hits on the ledge? And it's beefier in Sm4sh.

Oh, OH, OHHHH!

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

It deals 14.7% which isn't even close to insane; that's bad by SSB4 standards where other characters can easily deal 30%+ off a single grab against Bowser. Honestly Bowser's throw game has been neutered. I thought there'd at least be a combo at 0% but nope. On the bright side this makes Bowser a little easier to play since you won't have to time combos but... Definitely no higher than mid tier. Imma play Ridley for sure.


But it already hits on the ledge? And it's beefier in Sm4sh.

Ugh. I hate to give misinformation. My apologies. No idea where I got that 17% from. But, again, like I said, Bowser will probably not have combos out of his grabs, which is why I put emphasis on that 14% ; it's very, very high damage by itself for a throw.

meleebrawler you're right, I forgot about dash canceled tilts. Bowser has a very good Up tilt especially, so we shall see what we can do with that.

Anyways, here's some new recent footage of Bowser, starting at 8:45.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of9mE_zsY6s

So... Our dash dance looks decent. Fair looks like it is viable to land with if very well spaced given the end lag reduction it got. Nair can still combo into jab or grab or other stuff at low percent. We're still heavy as ****, surviving an up smash up to 138%. Thats about it I think, but I felt like sharing if you guys did wanna see.

Edit: wait, Down throw does deal 17 damage right? I saw it in a video. 14% is its base damage (still very high) and 17% is with the 1v1 multiplier without items. If i'm not mistaken, items being active (including the Smash Ball) decrease the damage by 20% as well just like multi-player battles. When I said 17% damage I'm talking specifically about 1v1 battles, which are the central meta of competitive Smash.
Jump at 4:30 on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBz-8wzJAT8

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yeah items deactivate the 1v1 multiplier. Dthrow is Bowser's best throw now lolol

 

[meleebrawler]

Ugh. I hate to give misinformation. My apologies. No idea where I got that 17% from. But, again, like I said, Bowser will probably not have combos out of his grabs, which is why I put emphasis on that 14% ; it's very, very high damage by itself for a throw.

meleebrawler you're right, I forgot about dash canceled tilts. Bowser has a very good Up tilt especially, so we shall see what we can do with that.

Anyways, here's some new recent footage of Bowser, starting at 8:45.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of9mE_zsY6s

So... Our dash dance looks decent. Fair looks like it is viable to land with if very well spaced given the end lag reduction it got. Nair can still combo into jab or grab or other stuff at low percent. We're still heavy as ****, surviving an up smash up to 138%. Thats about it I think, but I felt like sharing if you guys did wanna see.

Edit: wait, Down throw does deal 17 damage right? I saw it in a video. 14% is its base damage (still very high) and 17% is with the 1v1 multiplier without items. If i'm not mistaken, items being active (including the Smash Ball) decrease the damage by 20% as well just like multi-player battles. When I said 17% damage I'm talking specifically about 1v1 battles, which are the central meta of competitive Smash.
Jump at 4:30 on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBz-8wzJAT8

Things I noticed in that match: uair looks like it has more lateral reach and/or more active frames? Also, that double parry to tough guy ftilt action. I wonder how many multihit jabs Bowser can laugh at?

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Ah, good. I thought I was crazy for a moment. So I maintain what I said ; it's insane. It's, right now, the second highest damaging throw in Ultimate, K. Rool's Up Throw being the first, dealing a flabbergasting 20.1 damage.

I don't know about UAir having more active frames, but I heard about it having a sourspot now?
Also Idk why nobody in these footages we get from Ultimate punishes hits from behind with Side B. It drives me mad. Not a single side B in this match, or Kurogane's match.

 

[Kerthorok]

Pushblock Gaming said the sour spot on up air was a mistake due to not being aware of the 20% damage buff removal with items on. Thus there is currently no known evidence that it has a sour spot. Also didn't Zapp say Up Air comes out on frame 7 now or something? I get what you mean about side b punishes though. At frame 6, it's a great turnaround punish.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Idk I whiffed Side B once earlier in the night and I was like "this feels like death" so I didn't bother using it again. It's probably very good out of power shield as a punish though.

Also I should mention up b oos is hard now lolol

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Up B oos hard? How? Increased shieldstun?

I gotta say that Side B definitely feels a lot worse. God seeing people playing Bowser in Ultimate and not being lagless while landing with Side B hurts my sides each time.