Ultimate Bowser MU Analysis and Discussion

[S_B]

Rush down means you can apply safe, varied pressure that cuts off the opponent's options and voids any of their zoning tools.

Fair enough, and that definitely isn't Bowser (especially the "safe zoning tools" part).

Well I don't know what to say then if we're going to ignore the whole conversation that led up to this. I bring facts, you bring youtube videos. I've had enough of it.

No one is arguing that he has better frame data. We're pointing out that it doesn't matter when all of his previous weaknesses are intact, EVERYONE has better frame data, and with throw followups gone, he now lacks reliable ways to close stocks (which is the boat SSB4 Bowser was in, pre-patch).

But did you actually look at the videos and what was noted in them...? The DK one was made by Larry Lurr himself, and the second was analyzing one of Sinji's matches. These are extremely high level players. No reason to be dismissing them just because they're videos instead of spreadsheets.

As I said, there may very well be some form of reliable kill confirm hidden in Bowser's moveset that's yet to be discovered, but the fact that they're finding these kill confirms for less popular characters like DK and Pacman but not Bowser isn't encouraging.

In regards to speedy characters, jumpsquat makes a huge difference since while before they could easily smack Bowser before he could even attempt to use an aerial to challenge (fair), now Bowser can more readily contest and space with it, since it outranges similar moves from fast characters and wins trades with higher damage. And as Zapp said, makes getting around projectiles easier.

His grabs are still hugely damaging and reliable killers at high percents. No one wants to be grabbed by him, whether they be normal or special. At the mid-percent range where grab combos stop working for most fighters, Bowser's dthrow will be doing more damage than all of them.

Fire Breath no longer being flinchless at it's edge brings it back up to Flamethrower standards, and that was a very useful move for Charizard in neutral for safe damage.

Right, and these are all buffs, but Bowser was buffed from Melee to Brawl and it didn't matter, and he was absolutely buffed from Brawl to SSB4 and it didn't matter until a future patch gave him throw followups.

Hopefully, Bowser has some clever kill confirm hidden in his moveset, but if it exists, it has yet to be found despite people previewing SSBU labing it as much as they can.

 

[meleebrawler]

Right, and these are all buffs, but Bowser was buffed from Melee to Brawl and it didn't matter, and he was absolutely buffed from Brawl to SSB4 and it didn't matter until a future patch gave him throw followups.

Hopefully, Bowser has some clever kill confirm hidden in his moveset, but if it exists, it has yet to be found despite people previewing SSBU labing it as much as they can.

Every appearance he made he did move up in the tier list, slowly but surely. It's not like the changes aren't doing anything at all, you just have to accept that ''big, heavyweight powerhouse'' is an archetype that isn't likely at all to be near the top of tier lists for 1v1 Smash without some real busted stuff that makes them obnoxious for casuals. Maybe in some other fighting game less dependent on mobility...

That said, the global mechanic changes in Ultimate by and large greatly benefit heavies more than any other. Only they really benefit from rage now, fixed jumpsquats fix one of their key mobility weaknesses and running tilts make their neutral less predictable. He may have the same moves on the surface, but he won't be the same as Sm4sh Bowser.

Bowser would obviously be better if he wasn't so big and fat, but then he wouldn't really be Bowser, now would he?

 

[S_B]

meleebrawler I'd say any archetype can be top tier material. It just depends upon how their attributes balance out.

Bowser was better in SSB4 than he's ever been because his throw followups allowed him to rack damage on enemies and KO them reliably.

Throw followups do a great job of making a character stronger in competitive play without making them any stronger in casual play.

Bowser may still have a reliable kill confirm hiding somewhere in his moveset, it'll just be somewhere that casual players can't access it.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

In the 1.04 days of Smash 4, people cried over Bowsercide no longer favoring Bowser and his Fortress not being invulnerable on Frame 1. "I can't cheese stocks AND I can't punish everything that touches my shield? Bottom Tier Again!" We lost incredible tricks but still we found new ones before the Uthrow. We learned how to boost our recovery, how good our normals were, and how nuts Jab could be. Jab > Side B onto a platform was the original Uthrow > Uair and it became much more viable when 1.06 gave us majority control over the move. When Bowser's Uthrow was nerfed considerably, a lot of normies dropped Bowser right there, and still his tier list placement climbed with each update. Because Bowser had enough people pushing him in tournaments that they realized his other tricks and qualities. Not every mid/low-mid tier in Smash 4 was so lucky to get this level of attention. Regular buffs also turned people onto how good Mewtwo and Marth really were. Bowser still had a little bit to go in my opinion. I never once seen another player try Fortress to cover all ledge options. And I remember being frustrated at the lack of jab spacing. And if you're too scared to go off stage for a Fair edgeguard, at least fire breath as they recover low to tack on some free percent. THEN fortress to send them back out.

It's correct that Bowser's base moveset is largely unchanged which means there probably aren't a lot of new tricks that we haven't already pointed out. But we're still talking about a new game with new knockback, shields, new damage modifiers and a lot of old top/high tiers now being difficult to place with all their nerfs. Sheik has no I-frames on her Up B until she vanishes, Mario has trouble comboing, Bayo's ladder combo will only work with the aid of platforms at particular percents, Her Witch time is borked, and her Side B stops on shields granting a free punish, Ryu...Ryu will probably be more definitively our worst matchup since I haven't seen anything that's toned down. And we haven't even seen what's happened to Diddy and Rosa.

It's okay to not like Bowser changes, since even with the new knockback our old Uthrow would at least combo for damage at low percent if it couldn't combo for a kill. But I don't want people to be shot down every time they point out something new and helpful. The memes and hot takes would find a better home in Bowser Social.

 

[_Rated D.R.K_]

In the 1.04 days of Smash 4, people cried over Bowsercide no longer favoring Bowser and his Fortress not being invulnerable on Frame 1. "I can't cheese stocks AND I can't punish everything that touches my shield? Bottom Tier Again!" We lost incredible tricks but still we found new ones before the Uthrow. We learned how to boost our recovery, how good our normals were, and how nuts Jab could be. Jab > Side B onto a platform was the original Uthrow > Uair and it became much more viable when 1.06 gave us majority control over the move. When Bowser's Uthrow was nerfed considerably, a lot of normies dropped Bowser right there, and still his tier list placement climbed with each update. Because Bowser had enough people pushing him in tournaments that they realized his other tricks and qualities. Not every mid/low-mid tier in Smash 4 was so lucky to get this level of attention. Regular buffs also turned people onto how good Mewtwo and Marth really were. Bowser still had a little bit to go in my opinion. I never once seen another player try Fortress to cover all ledge options. And I remember being frustrated at the lack of jab spacing. And if you're too scared to go off stage for a Fair edgeguard, at least fire breath as they recover low to tack on some free percent. THEN fortress to send them back out.

It's correct that Bowser's base moveset is largely unchanged which means there probably aren't a lot of new tricks that we haven't already pointed out. But we're still talking about a new game with new knockback, shields, new damage modifiers and a lot of old top/high tiers now being difficult to place with all their nerfs. Sheik has no I-frames on her Up B until she vanishes, Mario has trouble comboing, Bayo's ladder combo will only work with the aid of platforms at particular percents, Her Witch time is borked, and her Side B stops on shields granting a free punish, Ryu...Ryu will probably be more definitively our worst matchup since I haven't seen anything that's toned down. And we haven't even seen what's happened to Diddy and Rosa.

It's okay to not like Bowser changes, since even with the new knockback our old Uthrow would at least combo for damage at low percent if it couldn't combo for a kill. But I don't want people to be shot down every time they point out something new and helpful. The memes and hot takes would find a better home in Bowser Social.

Not to sound like an elitist, but I definitely agree with you about the options some of the new age Bowsers use. It's so easy to see the difference between a Boozer mains and Bowser players. Watching footage of certain players, I wonder why their gameplay are so linear. This is new game and exploring the new game mechanics with Bowser will be fun. However, I can't help look at history and feel weary. So I can understand people being jaded.

 

[meleebrawler]

In the 1.04 days of Smash 4, people cried over Bowsercide no longer favoring Bowser and his Fortress not being invulnerable on Frame 1. "I can't cheese stocks AND I can't punish everything that touches my shield? Bottom Tier Again!" We lost incredible tricks but still we found new ones before the Uthrow. We learned how to boost our recovery, how good our normals were, and how nuts Jab could be. Jab > Side B onto a platform was the original Uthrow > Uair and it became much more viable when 1.06 gave us majority control over the move. When Bowser's Uthrow was nerfed considerably, a lot of normies dropped Bowser right there, and still his tier list placement climbed with each update. Because Bowser had enough people pushing him in tournaments that they realized his other tricks and qualities. Not every mid/low-mid tier in Smash 4 was so lucky to get this level of attention. Regular buffs also turned people onto how good Mewtwo and Marth really were. Bowser still had a little bit to go in my opinion. I never once seen another player try Fortress to cover all ledge options. And I remember being frustrated at the lack of jab spacing. And if you're too scared to go off stage for a Fair edgeguard, at least fire breath as they recover low to tack on some free percent. THEN fortress to send them back out.

It's correct that Bowser's base moveset is largely unchanged which means there probably aren't a lot of new tricks that we haven't already pointed out. But we're still talking about a new game with new knockback, shields, new damage modifiers and a lot of old top/high tiers now being difficult to place with all their nerfs. Sheik has no I-frames on her Up B until she vanishes, Mario has trouble comboing, Bayo's ladder combo will only work with the aid of platforms at particular percents, Her Witch time is borked, and her Side B stops on shields granting a free punish, Ryu...Ryu will probably be more definitively our worst matchup since I haven't seen anything that's toned down. And we haven't even seen what's happened to Diddy and Rosa.

It's okay to not like Bowser changes, since even with the new knockback our old Uthrow would at least combo for damage at low percent if it couldn't combo for a kill. But I don't want people to be shot down every time they point out something new and helpful. The memes and hot takes would find a better home in Bowser Social.

I wonder if the improved Tough Guy can take Ryu's light tilts?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

The reason why Bowsers like Cassius, KingKong, LordMix, Mag0, DeluxeMenu, and FinalBoss/Fahrenheit don't always cover ledge options with Fortress is because of greedy mindgames, Zapp. At least Cassius and KingKong have been around for your research and they still prefer to ignore Fortress in lieu of bigger plays. That, or Cassius is in an unfavorable MU like Bayo, where her ledge drop is so powerful that trying to react (without identifying first) with Fortress can get you killed. KingKong is the one who's tried to use your Fortress ledge tactic the most, but he tends to panic and use it too early in hard MUs, getting him killed against Canada's top threats.

Sure, you can hope that players will now use Fortress better to shut down options at the ledge in Smash Ultimate, but from all that I've read on recovery mechanics, we may not have to. It's apparently pretty hard to come back from off-stage with how air dodge currently works. I think that's where the emphasis will be and look forward to abusing our off-stage presence to close out stocks more, especially with how good Bowser's aerial Fortress is at returning us to the stage after going deep.

 

[Darches]

Well the reduced Fortress endlag will make it a better option to throw out, and improved tough guy (especially if it doesn't wear off) will really help in some matchups. While the Fortress didn't kill that one Fox at 120%, it DID send him at a semi-spike angle which means that successful recoveries could simultaneously set up edgeguards or in rare cases stage spike. Or the knockback could be unreliably random and hurt it's utility like old dSmash.

 

[S_B]

This gives me a bit of hope...
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...erfed_expect_for_ivy/?st=JK0JH45H&sh=2cd2300c

If grabs are that risky now, it makes side b more valuable by comparison as well as making trying to grab Bowser riskier.

 

[Darches]

Presumably they're just normalizing grab frame data on the speedsters to be less ridiculous, meaning Bowser's grab won't be changed (much).

 

[_Rated D.R.K_]

That's some good news. It will feel great to punish whiffed grabs, similar to SF.

 

[S_B]

improved tough guy (especially if it doesn't wear off) will really help in some matchups

Yeah, if it indeed doesn't ever wear off, Bowser is going to do quite well in the Megaman, Villager, and possibly Luigi matchups.

 

[Kerthorok]

I don't understand how anyone can think Bowser could be bottom 10 or even bottom 15 when he wasn't in Smash 4 before getting up throw up air. SSBU Bowser is prepatch Smash 4 Bowser on steroids. With the ability to transition to air at frame 3 and cancel dashes with tilts, Bowser has a significantly improved neutral. In addition, with landing lag on all his aerials reduced, most notably his fair, Bowser will have safer landing options to counteract juggling. Not to mention a frame 6 command grab gives him a way to bypass shields to mixup landing options as well.

And if my 2 cents are worth anything, I'm really happy they got rid of up throw up air. I've been playing Bowser since Smash 4 launch starting with 3DS and then Wii U and thought he was a joy to play, but just had a few flaws that needed some tweaking. Rather than doing this, they came up with a duct tape solution by giving him a brain dead kill confirm off a grab on most of the cast around 90. What used to take skill and reads devolved into damaging your opponent to an arbitrary percent and then fishing for a pivot grab. If this change means that a few band wagoners drop Bowser for easy-mode characters, then fine.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't understand how anyone can think Bowser could be bottom 10 or even bottom 15 when he wasn't in Smash 4 before getting up throw up air. SSBU Bowser is prepatch Smash 4 Bowser on steroids. With the ability to transition to air at frame 3 and cancel dashes with tilts, Bowser has a significantly improved neutral. In addition, with landing lag on all his aerials reduced, most notably his fair, Bowser will have safer landing options to counteract juggling. Not to mention a frame 6 command grab gives him a way to bypass shields to mixup landing options as well.

And if my 2 cents are worth anything, I'm really happy they got rid of up throw up air. I've been playing Bowser since Smash 4 launch starting with 3DS and then Wii U and thought he was a joy to play, but just had a few flaws that needed some tweaking. Rather than doing this, they came up with a duct tape solution by giving him a brain dead kill confirm off a grab on most of the cast around 90. What used to take skill and reads devolved into damaging your opponent to an arbitrary percent and then fishing for a pivot grab. If this change means that a few band wagoners drop Bowser for easy-mode characters, then fine.

The tale of grab KO combo bandwagoners in Smash 4 is one that will go down in history, their journey beginning with Diddy Kong's hoo-hah, then Luigi's dthrow cyclone and finally Bowser's showtime.

It really bears mentioning that Ultimate Bowser looks to have one the most complete grab packages I've ever seen, rivaled only by . Most characters have one really good throw with the rest just being there, but all of Bowser's are very useful in certain situations.

 

[S_B]

I don't understand how anyone can think Bowser could be bottom 10 or even bottom 15 when he wasn't in Smash 4 before getting up throw up air.

There's two reasons for that...

1. The meta wasn't super fleshed-out at the time Bowser got his throw followup, which means he likely still had some distance to fall, given the less complicated nature of his toolkit vs. characters like, say, Duck Hunt.

2. "Middle of the pack" means a great deal less in a game with near 60 characters in it.

Even though Bowser was ~C tier (with throw followups), he still had enough matchups that outright invalidated his existence that most pro smashers would've never spent the time labing with him as they knew all their opponent had to do was counterpick Sheik, Bayo, ZSS, Diddy, Pika, etc. and the matchup just became insanely stacked against them.

How much will Bowser's better frame data benefit him in SSBU? Time will tell, but it hasn't done all that much for him in the 1v1s I've seen thus far.

In a bit of possibly good news, Bowser's aerial up+B kills Samus at ~145% here in a multiplayer mode:
https://youtu.be/75eKNjRLrec?t=1m44s

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

In a bit of possibly good news, Bowser's aerial up+B kills Samus at ~145% here in a multiplayer mode:
https://youtu.be/75eKNjRLrec?t=1m44s

I was going to bring that up earlier but I don't know yet how much rage is a factor in ultimate. And while that particular Up B was staled multiple times, it seems the move's kill potential is far more dependent on how close you've gotten to the blast zone than the victim's percent. Plus I'm not impressed with the move's damage output. Pretty comparable to two kicks from N-Air as far as I've seen. Air Fortress will serve as a combo extension whenever our double jump is burned and they're still in range, but otherwise I think any double jump aerial will be superior since it won't force any special landing lag and allow us to follow their air dodge when they escape.

I'm hoping to see more footage of people edgeguarding bowser so I can check out what sorts of attacks Air Fortress beats or trades with. At the end of that video I remember it trading with a Samus D-Air onstage, and I guess that's a little disjointed given the animation.

 

[-Kagato-]

I struggle to find reasoning behind theorizing Bowser's tier position in a game that's still in development using data from a Demo that focused on casual play on a brand new engine. Lots of very smash-informed people have gotten their hands on the game, sure, but it takes more time than an afternoon of 2-minute item matches (I exaggerate) to determine a character's tier placement. Especially when literally anything can change by the final release.

Analyzing what Bowser can do as he stands now is good fun, but tier list position already? Really?

 

[S_B]

I struggle to find reasoning behind theorizing Bowser's tier position in a game that's still in development using data from a Demo that focused on casual play on a brand new engine. Lots of very smash-informed people have gotten their hands on the game, sure, but it takes more time than an afternoon of 2-minute item matches (I exaggerate) to determine a character's tier placement. Especially when literally anything can change by the final release.

Analyzing what Bowser can do as he stands now is good fun, but tier list position already? Really?

Didn't stop ESAM from doing it.

But seriously, I'm not saying we'll know Bowser's tier placement because 3/4ths of the cast could outright be worse than him.

My concern is that the problem Bowser and heavies in general have always had is a subsection of small, fast characters basically invalidating them.

When Sheik or ZSS can deal 100% damage to Bowser in the time it takes Bowser (or any heavy, really) to deal 20% to them, Bowser isn't the more survivable character in that matchup. Ergo, survivability alone doesn't make heavies viable. It's a quick comeback factor that actually makes them dangerous (and more than what most had in SSB4).

Bowser and DK rose in the tier list in SSB4 because they both had the comeback factor in their throw followups. Both needed around 3 grabs to possibly close a stock. Charizard and D3, however, weren't so lucky, and languished in lower tiers as a result.

Bowser doesn't need a throw followup, per se, but he DOES need some form of comeback factor because he was still generally "meh" in SSB4 without it.

Also, demo or not, we've seen discoveries like DK's confirms and Pacman's new tools. We've not seen the same for Bowser yet. While this doesn't mean it's not there, it's not encouraging that no one has found it yet.

Who knows, maybe FB will be positive on shield at mid range meaning you can f smash it before it can drop...

EDIT: So around here:
https://youtu.be/XHkJGV5UeiQ?t=3h26m40s

Bowser F-airs Inkling for a KO right around mid stage while Inkling is at 110 (122 after) and Bowser is at 231%. Considering this is multiplayer with items, that means the 20% nerf is in effect. Did F-air get a LOT stronger or is rage unlimited now or something?

Also, there's smoke coming out of Bowser's portrait, I'm guessing to demonstrate that he has rage?

EDIT2: At around here:
https://youtu.be/XHkJGV5UeiQ?t=3h29m10s

We get our first look at Uthrow's collateral, which doesn't seem to do much more than the KB of the throw itself.

EDIT3: Around
https://youtu.be/XHkJGV5UeiQ?t=3h44m06s

We can see that side+B's hitbox is pretty damn generous and possibly disjointed. I feel like this wouldn't have hit LM in SSB4, not even close...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Didn't stop ESAM from doing it.

"Against Bowser, all you need to do is hold shield" Oh baby if that's how everybody's going to think when the game launches then I think we're set.

For real though I don't think it's odd to drum up tier lists this early. It sparks some interesting discussion. And while we don't have the game in our hands for tests and no individual person has all the info, I think we end up with a great deal of info when many people put what they know together.

Also, demo or not, we've seen discoveries like DK's confirms and Pacman's new tools. We've not seen the same for Bowser yet. While this doesn't mean it's not there, it's not encouraging that no one has found it yet.

Just what is DK's kill confirm? Please don't say Headbutt. I know its got super armor but it's frame data is the same as our Fsmash. Also if bury mechanics work the same as last game, that's hardly a guarantee on nailing kills since you have to time your hit on the very frame they break free or else they'll air dodge.

As for Pac-Man, I still think it's weird you bring him up. Maybe it's because there's no Youtube video going over his nerfs.
- About half of his moveset deals less damage
- you can't cancel fruit charge into any attack, just shield or jump. That one is big since fruit cancels let him safely charge anywhere with no risk, and even as a movement/bait tool. Now that you have to burn a jump or air dodge there will be less safety. Like Samus charging her charge shot in the face of her opponent compared to Cloud charging limit.
-The biggest flaw with this character was the lack of kill setups or even kill moves in general and that hasn't been addressed at all beyond some tiny startup buffs on his smashes. His edgeguarding will probably shine in the new game but that's the best he can hope for when closing stocks - just like the last game.
-A working grab is great but he had almost the worst set of throws in the last game so I'm not expecting much besides throwing them offstage or giving himself some room to charge stuff.
-Hydrants have more health so you can't B-Air to instant launch.
-Apparently his z dropped fruit disappear after hitting something? Goodbye half the reason you'd want a fruit in your hand. I'll miss seeing that excellent shield pressure.
-I also think it's important to remind people that fruit are unlike most projectile in that you can pretty easily pick them up and use them against him. He can't pull out another one until the original fruit disappears. In Ultimate, all of your A attacks will pick up nearby items on frame 1 of their startup, not just aerials and dash attacks. So you'll be grabbing items a lot more without even trying. Also yes I expect that to matter a lot in the Diddy matchup. Winter is coming.

I feel like all this together is far more of a loss than what he gained. They want this guy to fight more like a normal character than run away charging fruit and hiding behind hydrant. Probably results in a more consistent matchup spread, but his zoning has been borked.

EDIT: So around here:
https://youtu.be/XHkJGV5UeiQ?t=3h26m40s

Bowser F-airs Inkling for a KO right around mid stage while Inkling is at 110 (122 after) and Bowser is at 231%. Considering this is multiplayer with items, that means the 20% nerf is in effect. Did F-air get a LOT stronger or is rage unlimited now or something?

This is why I'd like people to look into Rage for some comparisons on the demo. Because I just recreated these conditions in Smash 4 and you have to weigh as little as Jigglypuff for Bowser's fresh, max rage F-Air to kill you. And if Inkling were a balloonweight I think somebody would notice. I have a theory that all knockback growth on moves have been made more drastic. Because not only does everything look like a kill move eventually, but moves seem to have almost no base knockback when hitting somebody at 0%.

{QUOTE] EDIT2: At around here:
https://youtu.be/XHkJGV5UeiQ?t=3h29m10s

We get our first look at Uthrow's collateral, which doesn't seem to do much more than the KB of the throw itself.
[/QUOTE]
That won't insta kill Luma or Nana, but it's nice to know the collateral wasn't outright removed with the Uthrow rework.

EDIT3: Around
https://youtu.be/XHkJGV5UeiQ?t=3h44m06s

We can see that side+B's hitbox is pretty damn generous and possibly disjointed. I feel like this wouldn't have hit LM in SSB4, not even close...

Look closer, Mac jumped just before the grab box comes out. You gotta frame by frame to see it since jumpsquats and our side B are so absurdly fast.

 

[Awesomeperson159]

I wonder if the improved Tough Guy can take Ryu's light tilts?

Assuming all knockback stats are the same and he has 30 units Tough Guy (the bare minimum to tank Mewtwo's USmash multi-hit in 4, which he can in Ultimate), he can take all hitboxes in light DTilt and Jab 1 without a flinch. Since they have set knockback, this should probably work at any percent.

EDIT: At 0% he might also be able to crouch-cancel light UTilt, and he can always crouch cancel Jab 2. He can also take the multihit of Shakunetsu Hadouken, and to any percent with a crouch cancel.

 

[S_B]

Just what is DK's kill confirm? Please don't say Headbutt. I know its got super armor but it's frame data is the same as our Fsmash. Also if bury mechanics work the same as last game, that's hardly a guarantee on nailing kills since you have to time your hit on the very frame they break free or else they'll air dodge.

Nah, though headbutt is nice to have as a very dangerous mixup.

As per the video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t75ekvlJTP8

DK's aerial down+B is now a god-tier poke: safe on shield, auto cancels on landing, airdodging it leaves time for another aerial, and can be followed up with on the ground immediately.

Then there's the fact that GP no longer puts DK into special fall, meaning he can Bair someone off the stage, chase, Bair again, then B-reverse GP for early kills.

As for Packers, Z-dropping the bell on someone now stuns them. That's gigantic, since he had to throw it to get the stun effect in SSB4.

I'm still excited to play Bowser and I'm hoping that, with all of the frame improvements we can somehow make it work, but I'd feel a lot better about it if we knew that jab comboed into other moves like it used to, possibly even Fsmash.

 

[_Rated D.R.K_]

The direction I feel they need to go with his Bowser is he really needs to be the "Birdie" of Smash. For all the damage he dishes out, he's still just combo food, which I feel shouldn't be all the time. As far as tier list goes, i think it's quite hilarious, cause usually, these things end up being so ridiculously wrong lol. Bowser is a tricky case, because he's so unchanged(minus the speed buffs)but still has the same Koopa problems. We definitely have to be parry monsters, akin to Hugo from SFIII. That is what I'm anxious to practice, the parry.

 

[meleebrawler]

The direction I feel they need to go with his Bowser is he really needs to be the "Birdie" of Smash. For all the damage he dishes out, he's still just combo food, which I feel shouldn't be all the time. As far as tier list goes, i think it's quite hilarious, cause usually, these things end up being so ridiculously wrong lol. Bowser is a tricky case, because he's so unchanged(minus the speed buffs)but still has the same Koopa problems. We definitely have to be parry monsters, akin to Hugo from SFIII. That is what I'm anxious to practice, the parry.

Can't really compare Smash and Street Fighter in regards to combo vulnerability, since there's no such thing as weight in the latter, so everyone is equally vulnerable to combos, and being large only makes it easier to get them started on you.

 

[_Rated D.R.K_]

Can't really compare Smash and Street Fighter in regards to combo vulnerability, since there's no such thing as weight in the latter, so everyone is equally vulnerable to combos, and being large only makes it easier to get them started on you.

True, what I mean't by being "Birdie" is more armored moves. The big guy could use it.

 

[S_B]

True, what I mean't by being "Birdie" is more armored moves. The big guy could use it.

I just want Bowser to have SA on.... SOMETHING, FFS.

He's a giant, armored carapace with limbs and a head, yet not one single frame of SA in his entire moveset.

I'm envious of DK for having SA on two moves now...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

DK's aerial down+B is now a god-tier poke: safe on shield, auto cancels on landing, airdodging it leaves time for another aerial, and can be followed up with on the ground immediately.

Yeah It's cool in a ROB's N-Air sort of way. But we're still talking about a move that takes as long as his F-Air to come out and doesn't protect his huge body. Thinking about it though, I do think it has some potential on hit. Ground bounce combos are notoriously unreliable due to teching and lack of hitstun. But it's also a very weak meteor that probably will only force ground bounces at high percent. So before that point you'll get actual hitstun that should reliably combo into moves like we see in that video. As for the giant punch thing I think it's notable for when they recover high or if you just catch them with a Rising B-Air which isn't rare at all. But if they recover low, I have to wonder if DK's Up B will be good enough to make it back to the ledge after using a Giant Punch. And every character has that option to recover low when the matchup calls for it.

 

[S_B]

And every character has that option to recover low when the matchup calls for it.

DK has some reliable spikes, one of which has SA (even in the air), for just that sort of occasion.

The Euro Invitational had some stellar DK play. Definitely worth a watch and reminded me just how much watching heavies duke it out in this game is hype AF...

After watching ESAM's tier list video, I feel like Bowser is going to be eaten for lunch by Pikachu (even more so than in SSB4). One of the things ESAM said about tier lists is that what makes characters truly rise is they need that one thing that's basically broken about them. I don't agree with many his placements of characters (Ganon high tier? You sure about that...?), but I agree that characters need that special something to prevent them from being crapped on by the rest of the cast.

 

[meleebrawler]

I just want Bowser to have SA on.... SOMETHING, FFS.

He's a giant, armored carapace with limbs and a head, yet not one single frame of SA in his entire moveset.

I'm envious of DK for having SA on two moves now...

Isn't his usmash with it's guard point pretty much better than armour?

 

[S_B]

Isn't his usmash with it's guard point pretty much better than armour?

It depends on how good it is this time.

In SSB4, the shellguard:
-triggered on the first source of damage that touched the shell while Bowser was rising
-made Bowser invincible for that one frame
-didn't trigger if the attack hit any part of Bowser other than the shell first

I posted an example of the hammer hitting Bowser's shellguard and being negated earlier in the thread so that much remains the same.

However, I'd much rather know that a move will have SA on it for its entire duration, knowing that I won't be knocked out of it, and that's a worthwhile tradeoff for taking the damage, IMO.

I want aerial down+B to have SA on it because bombing to the ledge is one of the few ways Bowser could return to the stage in relative safety, but was still easily challenged by any character with a throwable projectile (like bombs) or a disjointed hitbox (sword, hammer, etc.). The move is still insanely slow and telegraphed AF, so I don't see an issue with it having SA, especially when it's so easy to punish on landing.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

USmash in Smash 4 is not that complicated. Kurogane cleared up that it's just shell invincibility. It works the same way shield does or dash attack. The invincibility is active on frames 14-27. There's no "trigger-on-event" that forces it to last 1 frame. Because it's invincible vs intangible, it will win against anything that would attempt to clash during USmash active frames. The active invincibility encompasses the entirety of the move (frames 16-23). If we get hit anywhere but the shell, then we suffer the hit as normal.

 

[_Rated D.R.K_]

DK has some reliable spikes, one of which has SA (even in the air), for just that sort of occasion.

The Euro Invitational had some stellar DK play. Definitely worth a watch and reminded me just how much watching heavies duke it out in this game is hype AF...

After watching ESAM's tier list video, I feel like Bowser is going to be eaten for lunch by Pikachu (even more so than in SSB4). One of the things ESAM said about tier lists is that what makes characters truly rise is they need that one thing that's basically broken about them. I don't agree with many his placements of characters (Ganon high tier? You sure about that...?), but I agree that characters need that special something to prevent them from being crapped on by the rest of the cast.

When I saw his placement for Ganon, I was like.

 

[S_B]

USmash in Smash 4 is not that complicated. Kurogane cleared up that it's just shell invincibility. It works the same way shield does or dash attack. The invincibility is active on frames 14-27. There's no "trigger-on-event" that forces it to last 1 frame. Because it's invincible vs intangible, it will win against anything that would attempt to clash during USmash active frames. The active invincibility encompasses the entirety of the move (frames 16-23). If we get hit anywhere but the shell, then we suffer the hit as normal.

The one thing that could be throwing me off is this:
-go into training mode
-spawn several explosive crates in a row
-Usmash in the middle of them
-All of them will be destroyed and Bowser will suffer 0 damage

Why I believed Bowser was invincible on trigger had to do with the fact that at least one of the crates was probably hitting something other than Bowser's shell, though I didn't test it extensively with platforms and whatnot.

Regardless, I'd still trade it for something with true super armor because touching Bowser instead of the shell negates it entirely.

Some good new footage here:
https://youtu.be/jMpsj0eLf4A

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I will get to play Bowser on the 14th, I will come back with my thoughts after trying him out :>

 

[S_B]

I will get to play Bowser on the 14th, I will come back with my thoughts after trying him out :>

Much appreciated.

Still hoping his improved frame data + TG will pull him from the wreckage of his loss of kill confirms somehow.

 

[_Rated D.R.K_]

That's good to hear, KH. Interested to what you have to say. It'll be nice to have an actual Bowser player use him.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Fire Breath still has the windbox.

Right, who's responsible for that piece of misinformation?

 

[S_B]

Fire Breath still has the windbox.

Right, who's responsible for that piece of misinformation?

Yeah, I noticed that, and it was the in-depth Bowser analysis video that guy did.

It may still have the windbox, but maybe it happens closer to the end of the flame now?

 

[Darches]

Well crap; if it's the same as before that'll really suck. I consider flinching fire to be quite a buff despite its limited uses. They could at least increase the (shield) damage on it or give Bowser fire shot by default.

I really don't like how the giant "GO!" stays on screen after the match begins, it's hard to see what you're doing if you jump forward.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Hello. It's been a while I haven't posted here. I thought I lost my account but turns out I actually didn't forget my password and mail address.

Anyways. I live in France and I have been able to play Bowser a lot in the demo in a con that recently took place here in Paris.

Bowser felt incredibly good to play in the demo. I'm a huge Bowser fan by default, but I'm really not joking when I say that he is just so much better. He feels even faster than the previous game, has decent and better frame data, and is scary as hell.

There's a few things I want to talk about. First, I am not entirely sure about myself on this, but I THINK that Aerial fortress non longer goes further if we mash B. If anyone can confirm, it would be nice.
Yes, the running tilts are HUGE for Bowser. Up tilt is super good, it's faster, has a bigger hit box, and can juggle. I actually tried to run up tilt in the demo and it turned out to be an amazing tool.
Bowser doesn't seem to be affected much by the grab nerf. I whiffed many grabs while playing and haven't noticed any differences compared to smash 4. Not that it matters since we now have a nasty Frame 6 command grab.

Back air is powerful. It's actually scary to land with it on shields. It's got reduced ending lag which is nice, but it's just as strong. Definitely gonna see some more use of this move in the future. Forward air, with also its buffed lag, is very good. Overall Bowser just feel much safer to use, both in the air and on the ground.

There's still hope for jab follow-ups. I still sometimes managed to get Jab to grab, and jab Down B. I apologize that I cannot give footage, but those are things that I tried in the demo because of how much I did them in Smash 4, and I'm pretty sure I was able to pull them off on some characters, like Link.

Did anyone here actually played the demo? I see a lot of negativity and it makes me quite sad. I will still main Bowser even if he ends up bottom tier, but I doubt he will be. But trust me, Bowser feels much better in Ultimate. And also, I am glad as well that Bowser lost his grab follow-ups, but I also wish that at release, he well get enough buffs to compensate for this loss.

Thanks for reading.

 

[meleebrawler]

Hello. It's been a while I haven't posted here. I thought I lost my account but turns out I actually didn't forget my password and mail address.

Anyways. I live in France and I have been able to play Bowser a lot in the demo in a con that recently took place here in Paris.

Bowser felt incredibly good to play in the demo. I'm a huge Bowser fan by default, but I'm really not joking when I say that he is just so much better. He feels even faster than the previous game, has decent and better frame data, and is scary as hell.

There's a few things I want to talk about. First, I am not entirely sure about myself on this, but I THINK that Aerial fortress non longer goes further if we mash B. If anyone can confirm, it would be nice.
Yes, the running tilts are HUGE for Bowser. Up tilt is super good, it's faster, has a bigger hit box, and can juggle. I actually tried to run up tilt in the demo and it turned out to be an amazing tool.
Bowser doesn't seem to be affected much by the grab nerf. I whiffed many grabs while playing and haven't noticed any differences compared to smash 4. Not that it matters since we now have a nasty Frame 6 command grab.

Back air is powerful. It's actually scary to land with it on shields. It's got reduced ending lag which is nice, but it's just as strong. Definitely gonna see some more use of this move in the future. Forward air, with also its buffed lag, is very good. Overall Bowser just feel much safer to use, both in the air and on the ground.

There's still hope for jab follow-ups. I still sometimes managed to get Jab to grab, and jab Down B. I apologize that I cannot give footage, but those are things that I tried in the demo because of how much I did them in Smash 4, and I'm pretty sure I was able to pull them off on some characters, like Link.

Did anyone here actually played the demo? I see a lot of negativity and it makes me quite sad. I will still main Bowser even if he ends up bottom tier, but I doubt he will be. But trust me, Bowser feels much better in Ultimate. And also, I am glad as well that Bowser lost his grab follow-ups, but I also wish that at release, he well get enough buffs to compensate for this loss.

Thanks for reading.

Over the years there have been a lot of cases of characters changing spots on tier lists from game to game, despite not receiving much in the way of direct changes or even getting nerfed. Fox from Brawl to Sm4sh is prime example. Looking at his personal changes reveals far more nerfs than buffs, but a game where chain grabs don't exist and combos aren't an endangered species still made him far better overall.

With the limited time to play available at these demos, people are more likely to try old strategies they know instead of trying to find out new ones. So when those old strats fail and you have no insight on the new it's easy to feel like your character got worse with nothing to show for it. Samus & Ice Climbers are also notable victims of this.

Bowser is looking to have a healthy mix of strong combo tools (with only small concessions in damage) and powerful KO options, along with a potent grab game.