Meta Two Sides of the Same Coin - Pit/ Dark Pit Meta Game Discussion

[Orchestrafanboy19]

I've been watching some videos of Dark Pit. He is no heavier than Pit in terms of actual weight, but he doesn't jump as high as Pit, so he seems like he's heavier. Pit definitely has better air maneverability, not sure if better air game, though.

 

[Katakiri]

I just tested KO power between the two Pits. What I did was use a CPU Pit that spawns in the same position every time I press the reset button in training mode (a very handy addition in SSB4) and I raised the CPU's damage manually until I hit a KO percent. Then I'd test it with both Pits seeing if they KO at the same percent and no lower or higher. This also helps check knockback angles.

Side-B KOes at 142 for Pit. KOes at 136 for Dark Pit. Pit's knock-back is about a 85 degree angle Star KO. Dark Pit's is around 65 degrees and KOes with the right blast zone.
F-Smash are exactly the same, KOing the training CPU Pit at 98% and no lower. Same knock-back angle.
Down Smash both KO at 153% and no lower. Same angle.
Up Smash KOes at 127 for Pit. KOes at 127 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
F-Tilt Sweet-spot KOes at 182 for Pit. KOes at 182 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
Up-Tilt also KOes at 182 for Pit. Koes at 182 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
Dash Attack KOes at 256 for Pit. KOes at 256 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
F-Throw KOes at 165 for Pit. KOes at 165 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
Up-Throw KOes at 210 with Pit. KOes at 210 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
B-Air sweet-spot KOes at 136 for Pit. KOes at 136 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
F-Air sweet-spot KOes at 161 for Pit. KOes at 161 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
I think that's enough. I can tell you from experience that Up-Air, N-Air, B-Throw, and the rest are exactly the same.

So in the knock-back department, nothing is different but Side B and Arrows.

So I guess to review, the differences between Pit and Dark Pit are:

• Dark Pit has less arrow control but stronger arrows (his arrows are not faster or slower)
  
• Dark Pit's Side-B does 0.5% more damage and launches at a diagonal angle instead of Pit's directly upward angle
• Final Smashes
  
• Which side of the bed they woke up on

And that's it. A carbon copy clone the likes of which have never been seen in Smash.
I like him tho.

 

[Tristan_win]

I just tested KO power between the two Pits. What I did was use a CPU Pit that spawns in the same position every time I press the reset button in training mode (a very handy addition in SSB4) and I raised the CPU's damage manually until I hit a KO percent. Then I'd test it with both Pits seeing if they KO at the same percent and no lower or higher. This also helps check knockback angles.

Side-B KOes at 142 for Pit. KOes at 136 for Dark Pit. Pit's knock-back is about a 95 degree angle Star KO. Dark Pit's is around 70 degrees and KOes with the right blast zone.
F-Smash are exactly the same, KOing the training CPU Pit at 98% and no lower. Same knock-back angle.
Down Smash both KO at 153% and no lower. Same angle.
Up Smash KOes at 127 for Pit. KOes at 127 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
F-Tilt Sweet-spot KOes at 182 for Pit. KOes at 182 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
Up-Tilt also KOes at 182 for Pit. Koes at 182 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
Dash Attack KOes at 256 for Pit. KOes at 256 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
F-Throw KOes at 165 for Pit. KOes at 165 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
Up-Throw KOes at 210 with Pit. KOes at 210 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
B-Air sweet-spot KOes at 136 for Pit. KOes at 136 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
F-Air sweet-spot KOes at 161 for Pit. KOes at 136 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
I think that's enough. I can tell you from experience that Up-Air, N-Air, B-Throw, and the rest are exactly the same.

So in the knock-back department, nothing is different but Side B and Arrows.

So I guess to review, the differences between Pit and Dark Pit are:

• Dark Pit has less arrow control but stronger arrows (his arrows are not faster or slower)
  
• Dark Pit's Side-B does 0.5% more damage and launches at a diagonal angle instead of Pit's directly upward angle
• Final Smashes
  
• Which side of the bed they woke up on

And that's it. A carbon copy clone the likes of which have never been seen in Smash.
I like him tho.

Real talk.

If Dark Pit and Pit are 99% identical then do they deserve there own separate character threads? Pit and Dark Pit meta's are going to develop very similarly and by splitting up the characters community it would only slow down it's development.

 

[Fire Tactician]

I've been watching some videos of Dark Pit. He is no heavier than Pit in terms of actual weight, but he doesn't jump as high as Pit, so he seems like he's heavier. Pit definitely has better air maneverability, not sure if better air game, though.

Yeah, I saw the weight comparison chart and they are the same weight. That said, something seemed off and you seem to have a good point. There's no doubt that their air game is different, but time will tell how that'll play out.

 

[New_Dumal]

Remember guys, that jump high don't ever means better air maneuverability.
Characters that jump very high (or are floaty) used to lost some short hop options, including the ability to pressure the game. If Dark Pit seems heavier, are a lot of uses about this, and probably better time to short-hop->air dodge->aerial cancel.

Just posting this because if Dark Pit has less knockback but more damage (someone said in a Dark Pit thread) and seems heavier, he is probably better to build combos but probably worse at gimping. But in a game with giant blast zone and excelent recoveries, gimp seems not be the better/easier option...

But I believe in you, Pit !!!

 

[Frostwraith]

@ Katakiri Good stuff there.

And wow, they really are similar, aren't they? Not that I mind, of course!

But it really begs the question: Rushed or canon? I'd say both.

 

[Coffee™]

To armor through attacks with a more powerful kill move is
definitely devastating to close-combat oriented characters. EA3 seems ideal for that and gives DP a defensive, counter-like option in sacrifice for mobility. It's less functional than EA1 overall but I know I will use EA3 against hyper offensive players and characters.

Doesn't EA1 already have super armor?

For customs, I'm really liking the Brawl Arrows. Nothing is as great as being able to make your opponent a pincushion. I don't use many of the other ones honestly so far, though I'm at least playing around with the different reflectors.

How is the knockback against offstage opponents with those arrows? I'm hoping it's pretty minimal to make for some easy gimps.

F-Smash are exactly the same, KOing the training CPU Pit at 98% and no lower. Same knock-back angle.
Up Smash KOes at 127 for Pit. KOes at 127 for Dark Pit. Same angle.

Really liking the fact that Up Smash seems like a pretty good kill move now as opposed to it's Brawl version. Fsmash also seems insanely good.

 

[Mono.]

Doesn't EA1 already have super armor?

Yeah but EA1 has less KO power than EA3, which is what I'm getting at.

 

[Fairycancel]

I hope you all love numbers! Since no one else bothered, I come from the Lucina forum bearing data on both Pit and Dark Pit.
@ Neo Zero This might be something to have in the OP of the thread since the Pits differences seem to be a common question.

Foreword: So some characters in this game have decimals in their damage numbers; Pit and Dark Pit are two such characters. This means that there's a hidden damage value adding up when you do damage (training mode will only register whole numbers in the data feed-back it gives so it's easy to miss) but the most important thing is that these decimals affect Knock Back (we think at least) meaning Pit and Dark Pit get a little extra distance on-hit than characters doing the same whole numbers of damage.

One last thing that's important to clear up beforehand, Dark Pit isn't any slower or faster than Pit. Their animations are all the same.

Anyway, here are Pit and Dark Pit's Damage Outputs:

Jab 1 - 2%, 2%, 5% (Pit) - 2%, 2%, 5% (Dark Pit)

Jab 2 (Rapid) - 2%, 2%, 1%~~~, 2% (Pit) - 2%, 2%, 1%~~~, 2% (Dark Pit)

Forward Tilt - 7% (Pit) - 7% (Dark Pit)

Down Tilt - 6% (Pit) - 6% (Dark Pit)

Up Tilt - 2%, 3%, 5% (Pit) - 2%, 3%, 5% (Dark Pit)

Forward Smash - 5.1556%, 10.1556% (Pit) - 5.1556%, 10.1556% (Dark Pit)
Fully Charged Forward Smash - 7%, 14% (Pit) - 7%, 14% (Dark Pit)

Down Smash - 12.3334% (Pit) - 12.3334% (Dark Pit)
Fully Charged Down Smash - 16.5% (Pit) - 16.5% (Dark Pit)

Up Smash - 2%, 3%, 8.334% (Pit) - 2%, 3%, 8.334% (Dark Pit)
Fully Charged Up Smash - 2%, 4%, 11% (Pit) - 2%, 4%, 11% (Dark Pit)

Neutral Air - 0.6% x7 Hits, 4% (8% Total) (Pit) - 0.6% x7 Hits, 4% (8% Total) (Dark Pit)

Forward Air - 1.5%, 1.5%, 4% (Pit) - 1.5%, 1.5%, 4% (Dark Pit)

Back Air - 12% (Pit) - 12% (Dark Pit)

Down Air - 10% (Pit) - 10% (Dark Pit)

Up Air - 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2% (Pit) - 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2% (Dark Pit)

Neutral Special (Arrows) - 3.334% (Uncharged), 8.5% (Fully Charged) (Pit) - 3.8% (Uncharged), 10.5% (Fully Charged) (Dark Pit)

Side Special (Arms) - 11% (Pit) - 11.5% (Dark Pit)

Grab / Pummel: - 2% (Pit) - 2% (Dark Pit)

Forward Throw - 6%, 4% (Pit) - 6%, 4% (Dark Pit)

Back Throw - 8% (Pit) - 8% (Dark Pit)

Down Throw - 2%, 4% (Pit) - 2%, 4% (Dark Pit)

Up Throw - 4%, 7% (Pit) - 4%, 7% (Dark Pit)


While I can't speak for Knock-Back angles, (I know their Side-B have different angles) Dark Pit is truly a carbon copy of Pit bar their Special Attacks having slightly different damage outputs and arrow control.

On the bright side, if you know how to use Dark Pit, you know how to use Pit just as well.

I just tested KO power between the two Pits. What I did was use a CPU Pit that spawns in the same position every time I press the reset button in training mode (a very handy addition in SSB4) and I raised the CPU's damage manually until I hit a KO percent. Then I'd test it with both Pits seeing if they KO at the same percent and no lower or higher. This also helps check knockback angles.

Side-B KOes at 142 for Pit. KOes at 136 for Dark Pit. Pit's knock-back is about a 85 degree angle Star KO. Dark Pit's is around 65 degrees and KOes with the right blast zone.
F-Smash are exactly the same, KOing the training CPU Pit at 98% and no lower. Same knock-back angle.
Down Smash both KO at 153% and no lower. Same angle.
Up Smash KOes at 127 for Pit. KOes at 127 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
F-Tilt Sweet-spot KOes at 182 for Pit. KOes at 182 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
Up-Tilt also KOes at 182 for Pit. Koes at 182 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
Dash Attack KOes at 256 for Pit. KOes at 256 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
F-Throw KOes at 165 for Pit. KOes at 165 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
Up-Throw KOes at 210 with Pit. KOes at 210 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
B-Air sweet-spot KOes at 136 for Pit. KOes at 136 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
F-Air sweet-spot KOes at 161 for Pit. KOes at 136 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
I think that's enough. I can tell you from experience that Up-Air, N-Air, B-Throw, and the rest are exactly the same.

So in the knock-back department, nothing is different but Side B and Arrows.

So I guess to review, the differences between Pit and Dark Pit are:

• Dark Pit has less arrow control but stronger arrows (his arrows are not faster or slower)
  
• Dark Pit's Side-B does 0.5% more damage and launches at a diagonal angle instead of Pit's directly upward angle
• Final Smashes
  
• Which side of the bed they woke up on

And that's it. A carbon copy clone the likes of which have never been seen in Smash.
I like him tho.

Doesn't down air spikes or at least its more easy to sweet spot it? Also, isn't F-Air a Advantage for Dark Pit from what you said? I am not seeing how Pit is stronger in any way except for arrow control from what you have said here 0_o

Real talk.

If Dark Pit and Pit are 99% identical then do they deserve there own separate character threads? Pit and Dark Pit meta's are going to develop very similarly and by splitting up the characters community it would only slow down it's development.

Well, they do still have some differences but I am not sure. Someone that can play one perfectly will probably not have much trouble using the other aside for feeling something off some times.

 

[LancerStaff]

@ Katakiri That's some impressive work. Think I could use these numbers for a guide? Planning on writing some for the two angels.

But, hmm... I can't help but think we're missing something. Well, we'll see when I retest your data for consistency and when we dig into the frame data and other things like shield size and rolling frames.

 

[LancerStaff]

@ Katakiri has damage data on our two angels, but I'm not going to post it around until I get an answer from him out of courtesy. They're largely the same, if you're wondering.

 

[Chrono.]

And the truth finally comes out. I'm... disappointed they're pretty much carbon copies of each other (cept for two of their specials).
But eh, you win some you lose some. I'm probs gonna go with Dark Pit since his Side-B looks more satisfying to use.

 

[BlinkIV]

The characters metas aren't gonna be too identitcal.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yaknow, I have an idea. Back in Melee Dr. Mario's trophies talked about the differences. (Albit the differences were mostly made up.) Perhaps DP's trophies will shed some light on the situation?

The characters metas aren't gonna be too identitcal.

If it's really just the two moves that have real changes, then they will. Me, I'll be maining both, as I've been planning since I found out DP was in.

 

[relaxedexcorcist]

Yaknow, I have an idea. Back in Melee Dr. Mario's trophies talked about the differences. (Albit the differences were mostly made up.) Perhaps DP's trophies will shed some light on the situation?



If it's really just the two moves that have real changes, then they will. Me, I'll be maining both, as I've been planning since I found out DP was in.

There's a pastebin floating around somewhere with the trophy descriptions, and it doesn't say anything about him we don't know already.

EDIT: Welp. It got taken down.

 

[New_Dumal]

So... If I wake up in a bad mood, I should go with Dark Pit. (Remembering this will change the knockback angle of My Side-B)...
If I wake up with piece in my heart, vertical launching all the way.

This slot was completely necessary! I can choose red wings now

 

[Katakiri]

Yeah I probably should have posted this here too. Thanks for tagging me here.

These are damage outputs, knock-back comparisons, and the overall differences for Pit and Dark Pit.

I hope you all love numbers! Since no one else bothered, I come from the Lucina forum bearing data on both Pit and Dark Pit.
This might be something to have in the OP of the thread since the Pits differences seem to be a common question.

Foreword: So some characters in this game have decimals in their damage numbers; Pit and Dark Pit are two such characters. This means that there's a hidden damage value adding up when you do damage (training mode will only register whole numbers in the data feed-back it gives so it's easy to miss) but the most important thing is that these decimals affect Knock Back (we think at least) meaning Pit and Dark Pit get a little extra distance on-hit than characters doing the same whole numbers of damage.

One last thing that's important to clear up beforehand, Dark Pit isn't any slower or faster than Pit. Their animations are all the same.

Anyway, here are Pit and Dark Pit's Damage Outputs:

Jab 1 - 2%, 2%, 5% (Pit) - 2%, 2%, 5% (Dark Pit)

Jab 2 (Rapid) - 2%, 2%, 1%~~~, 2% (Pit) - 2%, 2%, 1%~~~, 2% (Dark Pit)

Forward Tilt - 7% (Pit) - 7% (Dark Pit)

Down Tilt - 6% (Pit) - 6% (Dark Pit)

Up Tilt - 2%, 3%, 5% (Pit) - 2%, 3%, 5% (Dark Pit)

Forward Smash - 5.1556%, 10.1556% (Pit) - 5.1556%, 10.1556% (Dark Pit)
Fully Charged Forward Smash - 7%, 14% (Pit) - 7%, 14% (Dark Pit)

Down Smash - 12.3334% (Pit) - 12.3334% (Dark Pit)
Fully Charged Down Smash - 16.5% (Pit) - 16.5% (Dark Pit)

Up Smash - 2%, 3%, 8.334% (Pit) - 2%, 3%, 8.334% (Dark Pit)
Fully Charged Up Smash - 2%, 4%, 11% (Pit) - 2%, 4%, 11% (Dark Pit)

Neutral Air - 0.6% x7 Hits, 4% (8% Total) (Pit) - 0.6% x7 Hits, 4% (8% Total) (Dark Pit)

Forward Air - 1.5%, 1.5%, 4% (Pit) - 1.5%, 1.5%, 4% (Dark Pit)

Back Air - 12% (Pit) - 12% (Dark Pit)

Down Air - 10% (Pit) - 10% (Dark Pit)

Up Air - 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2% (Pit) - 2%, 2%, 2%, 2%, 2% (Dark Pit)

Neutral Special (Arrows) - 3.334% (Uncharged), 8.5% (Fully Charged) (Pit) - 3.8% (Uncharged), 10.5% (Fully Charged) (Dark Pit)

Side Special (Arms) - 11% (Pit) - 11.5% (Dark Pit)

Grab / Pummel: - 2% (Pit) - 2% (Dark Pit)

Forward Throw - 6%, 4% (Pit) - 6%, 4% (Dark Pit)

Back Throw - 8% (Pit) - 8% (Dark Pit)

Down Throw - 2%, 4% (Pit) - 2%, 4% (Dark Pit)

Up Throw - 4%, 7% (Pit) - 4%, 7% (Dark Pit)


While I can't speak for Knock-Back angles, (I know their Side-B have different angles) Dark Pit is truly a carbon copy of Pit bar their Special Attacks having slightly different damage outputs and arrow control.

On the bright side, if you know how to use Dark Pit, you know how to use Pit just as well.

I just tested KO power between the two Pits. What I did was use a CPU Pit that spawns in the same position every time I press the reset button in training mode (a very handy addition in SSB4) and I raised the CPU's damage manually until I hit a KO percent. Then I'd test it with both Pits seeing if they KO at the same percent and no lower or higher. This also helps check knockback angles.

Side-B KOes at 142 for Pit. KOes at 136 for Dark Pit. Pit's knock-back is about a 85 degree angle Star KO. Dark Pit's is around 65 degrees and KOes with the right blast zone.
F-Smash are exactly the same, KOing the training CPU Pit at 98% and no lower. Same knock-back angle.
Down Smash both KO at 153% and no lower. Same angle.
Up Smash KOes at 127 for Pit. KOes at 127 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
F-Tilt Sweet-spot KOes at 182 for Pit. KOes at 182 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
Up-Tilt also KOes at 182 for Pit. Koes at 182 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
Dash Attack KOes at 256 for Pit. KOes at 256 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
F-Throw KOes at 165 for Pit. KOes at 165 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
Up-Throw KOes at 210 with Pit. KOes at 210 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
B-Air sweet-spot KOes at 136 for Pit. KOes at 136 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
F-Air sweet-spot KOes at 161 for Pit. KOes at 161 for Dark Pit. Same angle.
I think that's enough. I can tell you from experience that Up-Air, N-Air, B-Throw, and the rest are exactly the same.

So in the knock-back department, nothing is different but Side B and Arrows.

So I guess to review, the differences between Pit and Dark Pit are:

• Dark Pit has less arrow control but stronger arrows (his arrows are not faster or slower)
  
• Dark Pit's Side-B does 0.5% more damage and launches at a diagonal angle instead of Pit's directly upward angle
• Final Smashes
  
• Which side of the bed they woke up on

And that's it. A carbon copy clone the likes of which have never been seen in Smash.
I like him tho.

 

[Katakiri]

Doesn't down air spikes or at least its more easy to sweet spot it? Also, isn't F-Air a Advantage for Dark Pit from what you said? I am not seeing how Pit is stronger in any way except for arrow control from what you have said here 0_o

F-Air was a typo on my part. They have the same KO power. Their D-Air meteor hit-boxes are identical.

@ Katakiri That's some impressive work. Think I could use these numbers for a guide? Planning on writing some for the two angels.

But, hmm... I can't help but think we're missing something. Well, we'll see when I retest your data for consistency and when we dig into the frame data and other things like shield size and rolling frames.

That's fine by me.

Real talk.

If Dark Pit and Pit are 99% identical then do they deserve there own separate character threads? Pit and Dark Pit meta's are going to develop very similarly and by splitting up the characters community it would only slow down it's development.

If it's possible to have cross-forum meta-game threads, I think that would be best. They should have their own forums if that's possible but any major competitive threads should be shared. It's up to the admins or mods in the end but, unless something very different is discovered, there's definitely a case to be made for these two.

 

[Frostwraith]

With all this data in mind, I think Dark Pit is just an extra fanservice character. The few changes between Pit and Dark Pit are minimal. The only big difference is the Final Smash.

@ Katakiri Could you compare Pit and Dark Pit's custom specials?

 

[Katakiri]

With all this data in mind, I think Dark Pit is just an extra fanservice character. The few changes between Pit and Dark Pit are minimal. The only big difference is the Final Smash.

@ Katakiri Could you compare Pit and Dark Pit's custom specials?

I can and eventually will. I'm still missing Dark Pit's Arm customs and everything for Pit. It's all RNG whether I get new custom moves or not because you can get the same move multiple times for whatever reason. It will take some time to get them all but I'll work on it.

 

[SonicZeroX]

How do their mobility stats compare like jump height, fall speed, and run speed?

 

[Frostwraith]

How do their mobility stats compare like jump height, fall speed, and run speed?

From what I've seen, they seem to be the same.

 

[GloriousV]

Well if you guys are interested about the difference of custom moves between Pit and Dark Pit, you can find all custom moves here.

http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=c2xywrva

From what I can see the only different custom moves are his Electroshock Arm moves.

 

[Orchestrafanboy19]

Thank you for the information, this is super helpful. However, I remembered something. It has been confirmed that Pit has a tipper. His f-tilt does 10% if hit by the tips of his bow. I'm unsure about other moves, but I have seen proof of this.

Edit: here is video proof of Pit's tipper: http://youtu.be/TPp_k_ykybY?t=3h36m22s
This is from the recent Nintendo Treehouse Livestream. Smitty is practicing with Pit and hits Sandbag a few times without the tipper, and once with the tipper. Normal hits do 7% and tipper does 10%.

 

[Neo Zero]

@ Orchestrafanboy19 I've merged your thread with the DP meta game thread, and moved the thread into both Pit and Dark Pit forums, since they're 99% the same (outside minimal special move differences). As such, I feel its best we advance both their meta games together, similar to how the Marth/Lucina forums are doing.

 

[Orchestrafanboy19]

@ Orchestrafanboy19 I've merged your thread with the DP meta game thread, and moved the thread into both Pit and Dark Pit forums, since they're 99% the same (outside minimal special move differences). As such, I feel its best we advance both their meta games together, similar to how the Marth/Lucina forums are doing.

Okay, that's good. Since their metas will be very similar, it does make sense.

 

[Neo Zero]

So I decided to follow in the footsteps of @ Katakiri and do some quick testing of the two Pits

First off, I decided to see when both Pits would die with a little help from Ike. Done from the center of FD, testing percents individually until the magic percent is found

-Horizontally, they both die at 45% from a Fully Charged FSmash
-Vertically, they both die at 58% from a Fully Charged USmash

Unfortunately, I don't know if the Rage mechanic is active in training mode, but the main point to take from this is that they die at the exact same time as one another.

Next up, I decided to test how fast they run, using Gerudo valley. I'd have them run from the left most platform (where it's Shadow begins) all the way to the right blastzone, and time it to see how fast they run from that one point to the other. For both, it took 3.7 seconds for them to go from that point to where they die off the walk-off. Meaning they likely travel the same speed

How about in the air? I didn't really have a good way to test air movement, so I kept it simple. First I measured how high they could jump up, using the stage lights of Boxing Ring. Both reach the lights and clip through the middle point. Additionally, from the ring floor, their Up B's both reach JUST above the stage lights.

Next, fall speeds. Went to Gaur Plain, and timed both normal fall speed and fast fall speed with a stop watch. From the left highest point, falling down to the blastzone it takes both of them 2.2 seconds for normal fall, and 1.5 seconds for fast fall for them to reach the bottom. Meaning they move the exact same in the air as well.

Finally, some more move stuff.

First off, damage percents of their custom specials

5%-11% N2 Pit=Pit Neutral 2 Damage (Uncharged-Charged)
5% D2=Both Pits Down 2 Reflector Damage
13% S2=Both Pits Side 2 Ground Damage
9% U2=Both Pits Up 2 base damage (incidentally, the end of the move does 6% for both as well)
6-13% N2 DP=Dark Pit Neutral 2 Damage (Uncharged-Charged)
2-6% N3=Both Pits Neutral 3 Damage (Uncharged-Charged)
9% S3=Both Pits Side 3 Ground Damage
11% AS2=Both Pits Side 2 Air Damage
7% AS3=Both Pits Side 3 Air Damage

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to check the decimal numbers, but these were the whole numbers I got

Between all Side B and Up B variations, both travel the exact same distance

Between all Neutral B variations, Pit's arrows travel farther both uncharged and charged (by quite a large margin I might add)

This was all done and tested on my lunch break at work, and I still need to check somethings as well, but from what I gather the only differences are

-Pit arrows travel farther than Pittoo
-Pittoo arrows deal more damage
-Different Arrow Trajectories for Neutral 1
-Different Side B KB angles.

 

[Frostwraith]

So I decided to follow in the footsteps of @ Katakiri and do some quick testing of the two Pits

First off, I decided to see when both Pits would die with a little help from Ike. Done from the center of FD, testing percents individually until the magic percent is found

-Horizontally, they both die at 45% from a Fully Charged FSmash
-Vertically, they both die at 58% from a Fully Charged USmash

Unfortunately, I don't know if the Rage mechanic is active in training mode, but the main point to take from this is that they die at the exact same time as one another.

Next up, I decided to test how fast they run, using Gerudo valley. I'd have them run from the left most platform (where it's Shadow begins) all the way to the right blastzone, and time it to see how fast they run from that one point to the other. For both, it took 3.7 seconds for them to go from that point to where they die off the walk-off. Meaning they likely travel the same speed

How about in the air? I didn't really have a good way to test air movement, so I kept it simple. First I measured how high they could jump up, using the stage lights of Boxing Ring. Both reach the lights and clip through the middle point. Additionally, from the ring floor, their Up B's both reach JUST above the stage lights.

Next, fall speeds. Went to Gaur Plain, and timed both normal fall speed and fast fall speed with a stop watch. From the left highest point, falling down to the blastzone it takes both of them 2.2 seconds for normal fall, and 1.5 seconds for fast fall for them to reach the bottom. Meaning they move the exact same in the air as well.

Finally, some more move stuff.

First off, damage percents of their custom specials

5%-11% N2 Pit=Pit Neutral 2 Damage (Uncharged-Charged)
5% D2=Both Pits Down 2 Reflector Damage
13% S2=Both Pits Side 2 Ground Damage
9% U2=Both Pits Up 2 base damage (incidentally, the end of the move does 6% for both as well)
6-13% N2 DP=Dark Pit Neutral 2 Damage (Uncharged-Charged)
2-6% N3=Both Pits Neutral 3 Damage (Uncharged-Charged)
9% S3=Both Pits Side 3 Ground Damage
11% AS2=Both Pits Side 2 Air Damage
7% AS3=Both Pits Side 3 Air Damage

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to check the decimal numbers, but these were the whole numbers I got

Between all Side B and Up B variations, both travel the exact same distance

Between all Neutral B variations, Pit's arrows travel farther both uncharged and charged (by quite a large margin I might add)

This was all done and tested on my lunch break at work, and I still need to check somethings as well, but from what I gather the only differences are

-Pit arrows travel farther than Pittoo
-Pittoo arrows deal more damage
-Different Arrow Trajectories for Neutral 1
-Different Side B KB angles.

So, the only differences are the neutral and side specials.

What do you mean by different arrow trajectories for neutral special 1? You mean the fact Pit's arrows have less limited control than Dark Pit? If that's what you mean, then Pit's arrows focus on range and precision while Dark Pit's arrows focus on damage.

Seems the only change on the side specials is the angle at which they're launched. I assume Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm also causes electricity effect on the foe? Not that it matters much, though, but I guess it could be useful to deal with some Smash Run enemies or something.

Anyway, it's interesting to know they're quite similar.

 

[LancerStaff]

Hey, does one shoot arrows faster then the other?

 

[InVinoVeritas]

Have you done testing for Pit's tipper damage and location, because I remember a pic of the day having Pit's tipper in it.

 

[UberMadman]

By the way, ZeRo mentioned that Dark pit has a faster nair, which means there may be more differences between the two than we have documented if he is correct, even if their damage outputs are the same.

 

[Neo Zero]

That's more difficult to test without a good way to record. ZeRo has capture software though, so he may have been able to test it.

Hey, does one shoot arrows faster then the other?

I did more testing. This one has a lot of potential human error involved since I only have one set of hands, but I found that both an uncharged and fully charged arrow stays on screen for the same amount of time.

Uncharged: 1
Charged: 0.7-0.9

Thus why I said the human error, very hard to get a good reading on a charged arrow. At any rate though, the results between both Pits were consistent. Since they last the same amount of time, it means that Pits arrows are indeed faster since they travel more distance.

 

[LancerStaff]

That's more difficult to test without a good way to record. ZeRo has capture software though, so he may have been able to test it.


I did more testing. This one has a lot of potential human error involved since I only have one set of hands, but I found that both an uncharged and fully charged arrow stays on screen for the same amount of time.

Uncharged: 1
Charged: 0.7-0.9

Thus why I said the human error, very hard to get a good reading on a charged arrow. At any rate though, the results between both Pits were consistent. Since they last the same amount of time, it means that Pits arrows are indeed faster since they travel more distance.

Thanks, but I was talking about the arrow shooting animation. Who takes longer to shoot?

 

[Neo Zero]

Thanks, but I was talking about the arrow shooting animation. Who takes longer to shoot?

Han shot first

Actually it appears they have the same firing speed from my testing. Both fire an uncharged arrow at 1.6 seconds at 1/4 speed (it'd be way to hard to time at normal speed, but the important thing is the numbers matching). Give or take .2 seconds from human error.

 

[LancerStaff]

Han shot first

Actually it appears they have the same firing speed from my testing. Both fire an uncharged arrow at 1.6 seconds at 1/4 speed (it'd be way to hard to time at normal speed, but the important thing is the numbers matching). Give or take .2 seconds from human error.

Hm, that's interesting. To me, it's sounding like you'll want to choose one or the other depending on the stage instead of the character. The whole maining both idea is starting to look less and less useful by the minute... Well, it's not a big deal.

 

[Neo Zero]

Hm, that's interesting. To me, it's sounding like you'll want to choose one or the other depending on the stage instead of the character. The whole maining both idea is starting to look less and less useful by the minute... Well, it's not a big deal.

Honestly, it could very well depend on the stage list.

Got a large stage? Pick Pit
Got a small stage? Pick DP
High blastzone? Pick DP
Wide blastzone? Pick Pit

The differences are so minimal at this point that anyone can use either one and play them the exact same way, outside how you control/use your arrows. Of course, we still need proper frame data and testing (which is hard to do on a portable with no one around you or no proper recording software)

 

[Orchestrafanboy19]

So, quick question. In terms of tier lists, who will be higher, in your opinions? Dark Pit does have the stronger arrows and a slightly better side B. However, Pit's arrows have better control and they only do a slight bit less damage and he has a tipper, giving him more spacing. Or will they be in the same tier?

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

From what I tested at Tippe Off 10, Pits sideb is a lot easier to hit with. Pits air mobility & lag time on aerials seemed a lot less.

 

[Neo Zero]

So, quick question. In terms of tier lists, who will be higher, in your opinions? Dark Pit does have the stronger arrows and a slightly better side B. However, Pit's arrows have better control and they only do a slight bit less damage and he has a tipper, giving him more spacing. Or will they be in the same tier?

We still need to know all the main changes which means testing frame data

Also I take it you guys are aware of this stuff

Both Pit's have this too in their Fair on the 2nd hit of it. You can do some really cool stuff with this too like

2nd hit of F-air by ledge>Walk off D-air Spike=Salty Opponent.

Just short hop, F-air and immediately input the fast fall after and you'll get it 100% of the time. I recorded a match testing it on For Glory against this scrubby Lucario. I'd show you if I knew how to access my replays without capture software.

 

[Sora Keyblade Master]

Drop it
We get it
This isn't the thread for it anyway

been done with it,