TSM | ZeRo - Let's Talk: Bayonetta Drama

In the Smash 4 community Bayonetta has been the current cause for drama and discussion. The newest DLC and essentially the winner of the Super Smash Bros. Ballot, Bayonetta has stunned many with her impressive combo game and many powerful tools. Some have called for a ban against her even this early on and the debates on her range from polite to fiery across the board. TSM's own ZeRo, the Chillean master of Smash 4 famous for his massive tournament winning streak, has created a video to share his thoughts on the matter and promote discussion on the subject. Agree with what he has to say?

A lot of points were made in this video and we encourage our readers to discuss them in the comments below. Where will Bayonetta end up in competitive play? Will she be nerfed? Only time can tell but we promise Smashboards will be there to report the story as it develops.

 

It's really way too early to be even having this discussion. More patches could be incoming anyway.

Dastardly Ridleylash

No, Zero plays (and makes videos) to make a living. To say he doesn't is objectively, factually wrong. He might enjoy it too, but it is how he makes a living. There's nothing wrong with his career choice. You don't have to feel guilty because of the truth.

@SiO2
Well, Zero did explain in the video that people like Komorikiri have already produced solid results with the character. Komorikiri himself won a huge tournament in Japan with her, apparently. But he is one of the top five Smash players in the world.. as Zero says.

G Gimmick
That's kind of how fighting games work? Counter picks are very common in the competitive scene. So your whole thing is "I don't like it, so we shouldn't have it" which also includes excluding characters just because you don't like them. That's a little rude, to be honest. I'm glad we don't decide things based on whether someone likes that character personally or not, THAT would be incredibly toxic, lol. Not to mention extremely damaging to the meta. Well, that whole post of yours was kind of a joke I guess..

Kudos to Zero for playing Hotel Dusk music though. I love those games.

You clearly didn't read my other post.

"Except most meta games don't boil down to whether one/a few characters can beat one really dominant one. Especially when all of the characters required to beat this overwhelmingly powerful character have a specific play style.

That just leads to a really bad meta. Even in Melee. One of the main reasons people still play that game is due to the amount of viable characters. Do you really think people would still play Melee if it reached 20XX? I mean look at Brawl. That game had like 4 viable characters and pretty much died off."

 

Its funny how some people are complaining about how careful you have to play against bayo. This is nothing new to me because I have to play careful in most match up's as a Link main. Dear God, fighting Sheik as Link is a nightmare but its so rewarding when I finally beat a high level Sheik main at my Locals. One mistake with Link, its pretty much my butt and its like that against Fox, Captain Falcon, Mac, ZeroSuit, Mario, and Rosalina. Yes, bayo is a nightmare to face but this is nothing new at all and it can be frustrating, I just have to get good and so does everyone else.

Cloud is my secondary, because Final Fantasy 7 is my favorite RPG of all time. I am still not confident enough to try him in tourneys yet though...

 

Uh, yeah, that's nice, I guess, for an opinion.
As it's already been discussed, there are plenty of options against Bayonetta, and just because you don't like them and their playstyle does not mean it's hurting the meta. Just like how everyone had to focus on dealing with high-tier rush down characters didn't hurt the meta. For instance, Villager and Zelda both play defensively, but also very differently.

People against Bayo are really exaggerating, so I mean, I can't say I take their arguments very seriously. But whatever.

Rosalina and Luma, Sonic, Mario, Cloud, Villager, Olimar.. and more can take her on. I really don't see how that hurts the meta, at all. But whatever.

In any case, what you wrote then and what you wrote after were different posts.


"So to beat Bayonetta I have to choose characters that are basically irrelevant to the meta?"

Exclusion of other characters because you think they always will be irrelevant is toxic, why can't these characters become relevant in certain matchups? Is that in itself bad?

"That basically means the game will come down to whether so and so on can beat Bayonetta. Not a diverse meta where everyone character can be played at least somewhat competently."

Wow, way to really blow things out of proportion. Yeah, Bayo is definitely that bad. So much worse than Sheik and RosaLuma. Definitely. Uh-huh. She just gets free kills off of everyone with Witch Time. Right. Maybe try reading other's posts in this thread? And watch some tourney vids. Just saying.

"Do you guys really think that everyone enjoys running around the map and tossing out boomerangs or missiles as Toon Link or Samus? And then we have the characters. You guys think it's going to be easy playing defensively as someone like Captain Falcon or Marth?"

1. To some people. That's 100% just your opinion.

2. Uh, no? That's when you choose another character for the match. You know, like low tier mains do, for example?

Basically you overestimate Bayonetta and see her as broken when
she's not. That's the fundamental issue we're disagreeing on, and until the meta has furthered no one can say for sure whether that's going to be true, however as there are a BUNCH of characters that can beat her, I hardly see how she's broken.

But whatever. I'm done here.~

 

You clearly didn't read my other post.

"Except most meta games don't boil down to whether one/a few characters can beat one really dominant one. Especially when all of the characters required to beat this overwhelmingly powerful character have a specific play style.

That just leads to a really bad meta. Even in Melee. One of the main reasons people still play that game is due to the amount of viable characters. Do you really think people would still play Melee if it reached 20XX? I mean look at Brawl. That game had like 4 viable characters and pretty much died off."

He probably did, but it's just that your posts are incorrect.

 

I agree that Bayonetta is probably the best character in the game but disagree with Zero as to how easy he makes her sound to play. I mean she's not like Cloud, she has a learning curve and it seems to be much higher than at least half the roster.

Also what kind of talk is banning her from tournament? We all have access to the same roster and although I would hate to see nothing but Bayonetta dittos I can guarantee it would never come to that.

 

He probably did, but it's just that your posts are incorrect.

Except he really didn't. He just stated a bunch of points that I already made a rebuttal to.

 

I keep saying it...this is the way to balance Bayonetta:

Make her go into freefall after using both of her Up B's.

Done. She's fixed. Her low%-death combos no longer work (as they all require an up air to finish it), it's harder for her to recover, and she's actually punishable when landing. Witch time is also nowhere near as scary if there's no threat of being 0-deathed when caught in it.

 

I agree that Bayonetta is probably the best character in the game but disagree with Zero as to how easy he makes her sound to play. I mean she's not like Cloud, she has a learning curve and it seems to be much higher than at least half the roster.

No, she really doesn't...

 

No, she really doesn't...

She's harder than Mario, Ness, etc

She's easier than Ryu, Peach, Sheik, etc.

At least IMO.

 

Seriously? Is Bayo's matchup spread as one-sided as Sheik's? Were people ******** this hard when Sheik was sweeping tournaments? They sure did when Diddy was, but no one called for a ban.

Regardless, unless she's winning every tournament she's in and the game is reduced to Bayo doubles with the occasional Rosie, chill the **** out.

She's not *that* polarizing.

 

Yeah guys, just "get good" at not being 0-death'd. Adapt to free witch time kills.

She has slow startup on some moves, it's fine, LOL

 

I keep saying it...this is the way to balance Bayonetta:

Make her go into freefall after using both of her Up B's.

Done. She's fixed. Her low%-death combos no longer work (as they all require an up air to finish it), it's harder for her to recover, and she's actually punishable when landing. Witch time is also nowhere near as scary if there's no threat of being 0-deathed when caught in it.

I don't agree the whole thing is her to not be helpless. If she does need a nerf (WITCH) "get it" only time will tell we need to see her at some majors. Anyway if there was a nerf to balance her out then I agree with making witch twist go a slightly shorter distance ONLY when it hits someone ala Ness' recovery. This way she can still keep her recovery (since she only gets one ABK instead of 2 because no hit) and yet if the OPPONENT ****s up and decides to stand on the top ledge they can still get taken into the sky but on the ground she won't be able to bring them high enough up.

Right there she gets rewarded for playing smart and you get punished for messing up as it should be. Now instead of finding ways to nerf her more people should be thinking of ways to buff the other characters who need it and make them balanced which is what we should be striving for. As close to balance as possible is what we need.

 

Yeah guys, just "get good" at not being 0-death'd. Adapt to free witch time kills.

She has slow startup on some moves, it's fine, LOL

Or you could get good at DI-ing and mixing up DI depending on the move...or bait out the Witch Time like people bait out Corrin's counter...Or learn to shield...

Unlike pre-patch Sheik, she has plenty of counter play.

 

I keep saying it...this is the way to balance Bayonetta:

Make her go into freefall after using both of her Up B's.

Done. She's fixed. Her low%-death combos no longer work (as they all require an up air to finish it), it's harder for her to recover, and she's actually punishable when landing. Witch time is also nowhere near as scary if there's no threat of being 0-deathed when caught in it.

That is the dumbest idea I've ever heard. That would destroy her as a character. And it's obvious Sakarai doesn't want that. Adding end lag to any special move probably won't happen because then she might not be able to combo and they want her to combo. Without Bayonetta being destroyed as a character she would need to be tweaked. Not nerfed and not buffed, but tweaked. If you take her 2 only viable ways of killing (off the top combos and witch time) then you would have to give something back to her. Her smash attacks are super hard reads only, and her forward throw does not kill until 150%+. Bayonetta's forward would need to kill as early as Pit's if you don't want her killing you off the top anymore. You can't just take her only reliable way of killing away and not give her anything in return (yes her off the top combos are her only reliable thing to take stocks as witch time involves two people to activate and your opponent will just end up doing nothing but grabbing). It's a give and take.

But ye, I don't see any of this happening. At least not anytime soon. Start learning guys, we have another month or two before another patch comes out. If another patch comes out.

 

Bayo is fine imo if you look away from witch time

 

Bayo is fine imo if you look away from witch time

Agreed. Just like how pre-patch Diddy was fine when you looked away from his hoo hah.

 

Bayo is fine imo if you look away from witch time

The Hindenburg crashing is fine imo if you look away from the explosion

 

I can not believe what I am reading. People are threatening to quit if she is not banned? Oh my goodness. And you guys are over exaggerating what she can do so much. Yes she can kill you at zero if you're caught off guard, but if you have any clue about the match up and know what DI is, that shouldn't be happening. Bayonetta does not consistently kill people at zero, but reading this thread it seems like it. If you guys start DIing instead of only pressing the air dodge button then maybe you won't get comboed to hell. I hate how saying that good DI works against Bayonetta has turned into a meme because it's true... I guess it's time to educate some of you since you guys are too lazy to lab her yourself.

Dive Kick

If you are shielding that move, you're already doing it wrong. First of all, if a dive kick move does hit your shield it is punishiable. I have seen characters like Bowser punish me with an up air for it. It's punishable if you can react quickly enough. A second way to punish it would be to walk backwards and let them dive kick right in front of your face. Only 2 people I've fought have done this, and it makes doing dive kicks way more risky. If you anticipate a dive kick coming then walk or jump backwards and then punish them. And the third way to punish it would be to challenge it. Players like The Wall have been challenging my dive kick with smash attacks and it's a worthy trade. Shielding is not ideal, but even then you can punish it from hitting your shield if you're fast enough and if your character can do it (Don't know if your character can? Then lab it out. Find ways!) You people are still conditioned into thinking shielding moves should equal a free punish. Have we forgotten the shield patch? Or were you told that shield would beat Bayonetta and that you should just stay in shield? Newsflash, Bayo players are finding ways to beat shield and poke safely. Now adapt to their adaptation. There are moves like ZSS' flip kick, Peach's side B, Sonic's neutral B, and Sheik's bouncing fish that do the exact same thing. People are saying it's not punishable, but has anyone actually labbed a way to punish it in the first place? Why are you even getting hit by that move in the first place? It should be easy to react to. If you hate dive kick that much then stop going to stages with few platforms. I.e. smashville, town and city, and FD.

Witch Twist

Now for the up B known as witch twist. This thing is a noob destroyer. Meaning it is a tool that overwhelms noobs because they lack the fundamentals to beat it. It's the same reason why people hate Ness' backthrow. One mistake could equal death. But at high level play, people should not be doing unsafe moves on shield in the first place and getting hit with witch twist OOS. And like someone else said, using it nets you stage loss which is super important and can turn the tide of a match. And if someone is only running up to you and witch twisting then dive kicking back, then read that and punish it however you can. Obviously it may not be a hard punish, but a punish is still a punish. Also she has 20+ frames of landing lag whenever she does a special move. Some people literally watch me land after doing something crazy in the air when they could be punishing me because they respect Bayonetta too much which you should respect her, but not to the point where you let her get away with things for free.

Witch Time

If you're playing a Bayonetta that loves witch time, know that is takes ~30+ seconds for a witch time to fully recharge. So when you bait it out, that's when you can go in without worry. After he whiffs the first witch time, the time on the second witch time is reduced significantly. If he lands a second witch time on you within 30 seconds you might die by an uncharged smash attack. She won't have time to go for a full charge smash attack anymore because the witch time would be too short. If he whiffs 2 witch times within 30 seconds, that's when you can go 100% in if you want to because a 3rd witch time would be so useless and pointless. He won't have time to do anything at all except maybe a grab. Maybe. "But how do I bait it out?" Positional pressure. Just like how you bait out air dodges and spot dodges. Do not pressure her by throwing out random moves. That's how Bayonetta will beat you. Be close enough where you'll pressure her to press buttons simply by being near her. Walk and shield, short hop air dodge, full hops (I don't recommend short hops since the heel slide can get you), etc. Stop throwing out moves you know won't hit.

Heel slide

Shield beats this move. Easily. Especially after the nerf. If she hits your shield with this move, most characters can just turn around forward smash. Or if you have a tether grab then just turn around and grab. I would not worry about always trying to grab her if she does a hell slide on your shield. You don't need to punish everything with grabs so you can start your bread and butter combos. That's how most people get caught by the kick flip part.


I could say more about her other moves, but I can't do everything for you people. All I have left to say is to learn. Because do we want to nerf every character to the point where Pit and Mario are the top characters to play because we refuse to learn match ups? People say they are trying to find ways, but are they really? Because these are things you could find out with just one or two hours of serious practice against Bayonetta. Outside of witch time Bayonetta is in no way as powerful as some of you make her out to be. She is not even close to being overpowered to the point where she should be banned. Not. Even. Close.

Honestly, I think this video from Zero was terrible. It did nothing but fuel the fire with his obviously biased opinions. Just listen to what he says about Sheik. Made me cringe. If she was as easy people made her out to be then why aren't top 8s consisting with half of Bayonettas. Why aren't top 3 of locals all Bayonettas? But since people take Zero's word as the gospel, Bayonetta players are gonna get even more crap because now people will be saying "You're getting carried!!! You can't say anything back because Zero also said so!!!!!" and instead of getting better they'll just fall back on the "Well Bayonetta is unfair anyways, I should be losing" excuse. I do not understand this whining (yes at this point this is basically whining) when characters like Rosa and Sheik do the exact same thing where they force you to play different. Do people expect to play auto pilot in every match up and win?

I'm rambling now. I'll leave it at that.

Literally all of this except the witch time part is wrong lmao

 

She's harder than Mario, Ness, etc

She's easier than Ryu, Peach, Sheik, etc.

At least IMO.

I guess it's super subjective, but I find her easier than Ness at least. Mario is a given because he's definitely one of the easiest characters in the game by design.

 

Literally all of this except the witch time part is wrong lmao

>Says I'm wrong
>Doesn't say why or what is wrong

Ok buddy. You left me nothing to reply to. Please don't clog up my notification inbox with meaningless replies.

 

We could have avoided this all by voting for K.rool instead

 

We could have avoided this all by voting for K.rool instead

Nah, he'd probably have Witch Time and Witch Twist / ABK combos too.


...Now I want TS4M to mod that in lol.

 

The K. Rool dream...

We tried so hard to get that awesome reptile in the game but Sakurai had to Krush our Kooky Kroc Koncept. What a Katastrophy...

 

>Says I'm wrong
>Doesn't say why or what is wrong

Ok buddy. You left me nothing to reply to. Please don't clog up my notification inbox with meaningless replies.

LITERALLY ALL OF IT

 

>Says I'm wrong
>Doesn't say why or what is wrong

Ok buddy. You left me nothing to reply to. Please don't clog up my notification inbox with meaningless replies.

Re: DI, if bayo hits you with a move and follows your DI then you will die. DI is a mixup, not an escape

Re: dive kick, the frame advantage on shield is like hardly anything if you're getting up aird by BOWSER you are a terrible player because it's completely safe on shield

Shielding the move however is still probably the optimal way to punish it, you can't just say "SPOTDODGE THIS UNREACTABLE MOVE ON REACTION"

It's frame 8 ffs

And how is trying to beat it out optimal? If you do, that's nice, if you don't you take 40% or die. Ok

Re: witch twist, again, frame 4, gives her obscene options out of it, you can attack, dive kick away, abk away, dive kick towards, jump, ANYTHING because it's completely safe on shield and has the hitbox of the sun, if you're calling people bad for getting hit by up b OoS then that's completely unreasonable please stop lol

Re: heel slide, it's punishable on shield with grab or fast up b's, not forward smash attacks.

Re: witch time, don't justify this ******** move by saying "just bait it out!!"

Risk reward bro, that move has no place in this game

 

Re: DI, if bayo hits you with a move and follows your DI then you will die. DI is a mixup, not an escape

Re: dive kick, the frame advantage on shield is like hardly anything if you're getting up aird by BOWSER you are a terrible player because it's completely safe on shield

Shielding the move however is still probably the optimal way to punish it, you can't just say "SPOTDODGE THIS UNREACTABLE MOVE ON REACTION"

It's frame 8 ffs

And how is trying to beat it out optimal? If you do, that's nice, if you don't you take 40% or die. Ok

Re: witch twist, again, frame 4, gives her obscene options out of it, you can attack, dive kick away, abk away, dive kick towards, jump, ANYTHING because it's completely safe on shield and has the hitbox of the sun, if you're calling people bad for getting hit by up b OoS then that's completely unreasonable please stop lol

Re: heel slide, it's punishable on shield with grab or fast up b's, not forward smash attacks.

Re: witch time, don't justify this ******** move by saying "just bait it out!!"

Risk reward bro, that move has no place in this game

I've seen top Bayo players get punished for using Dive kick. I've seen Bayo players lose games because they gave up stage control by using witch twist and dive kicking away. Heel slide is definitely punishable with forward smashes if the kick flip part doesn't hit your shield. Even if a move is safe on shield, so what? Do want shields to be over powered again and have them be the answer to everything? DI is still important. Having the correct DI can mean the difference between losing the stock, or taking 40% but still keeping your stock. I never said DI was for escaping combos 100%. I can tell you don't know much about Bayonetta outside of numbers.

 

I've seen top Bayo players get punished for using Dive kick. I've seen Bayo players lose games because they gave up stage control by using witch twist and dive kicking away. Heel slide is definitely punishable with forward smashes if the kick flip part doesn't hit your shield. Even if a move is safe on shield, so what? Do want shields to be over powered again and have them be the answer to everything? DI is still important. Having the correct DI can mean the difference between losing the stock, or taking 40% but still keeping your stock. I never said DI was for escaping combos 100%. I can tell you don't know much about Bayonetta outside of numbers.

Matey I know all about Bayonettas numbers, she can move on like frame 26 or something as absurd on hit after dive kick, it's 100% unequivocally safe on shield.

About DI: you literally said this...:

"Yes she can kill you at zero if you're caught off guard, but if you have any clue about the match up and know what DI is, that shouldn't be happening."

Regarding shields, moves that are safe on shield are fine, moves that lead into 40% combos that are safe on shield are not fine. For what it's worth Heel Slide needs another 10 frames added to the ending lag tbh or needs a massive damage reduction on the kick so it's punishable but still able to be combod out of.

Don't claim to know more about any characters numbers than me please...

 

That is the dumbest idea I've ever heard. That would destroy her as a character. And it's obvious Sakarai doesn't want that. Adding end lag to any special move probably won't happen because then she might not be able to combo and they want her to combo. Without Bayonetta being destroyed as a character she would need to be tweaked. Not nerfed and not buffed, but tweaked. If you take her 2 only viable ways of killing (off the top combos and witch time) then you would have to give something back to her. Her smash attacks are super hard reads only, and her forward throw does not kill until 150%+. Bayonetta's forward would need to kill as early as Pit's if you don't want her killing you off the top anymore. You can't just take her only reliable way of killing away and not give her anything in return (yes her off the top combos are her only reliable thing to take stocks as witch time involves two people to activate and your opponent will just end up doing nothing but grabbing). It's a give and take.

But ye, I don't see any of this happening. At least not anytime soon. Start learning guys, we have another month or two before another patch comes out. If another patch comes out.

I'm not taking away witch time. And I'm not taking away her combo game.

There's no real reason aside from canon that Bayo never goes into freefall, and canon should never be the basis for balance. If she went into freefall after using both of her up b's like 90% of the cast do (only other characters that don't are olimar, sonic, mega man and ROB, and I guess Yoshi but he doesn't really count) then all it would mean is that she can't 0-death you. Yes, her combos CAN technically be DI'd, but guess what, we still see top level players dying to them, because the Bayo players follow the DI.

Honestly, I don't see witch time as being an issue. Leave it as is. The issue is the confirms she can get off it at low percents, the issue is that she's not punishable when landing, the issue is that it's almost impossible to edge guard her. All of which are fixed by putting her into freefall/helpless state when both Up B's are used (so she can use one, and still be fine).

Heel slide may need slight tweaking as well.

 

I guess it's super subjective, but I find her easier than Ness at least. Mario is a given because he's definitely one of the easiest characters in the game by design.

I still believe that Ness is easier.

Bthrow killing mad early and easy and PK Fire doing easily a ton of damage. I once got a Marth from 0-80% with a 4 PK Fires combo (hit em when he was really close) and then Bthrow later on for the kill.

 

I still believe that Ness is easier.

Bthrow killing mad early and easy and PK Fire doing easily a ton of damage. I once got a Marth from 0-80% with a 4 PK Fires combo (hit em when he was really close) and then Bthrow later on for the kill.

Multiple PK Fire's are only true combos when you hit them at a certain way from the air or against certain characters. I very often can't do any followups after PK Fire because the opponent escapes it faster than any option I have. Marth really shouldn't have any difficulty getting out of it fast enough to not get hit by another PK Fire. Then again, PK Fire's one of the easier moves to not get hit by without lag.

And about having a very powerful kill throw, DK's and ROB's kill combos off of throws kill earlier unless you decide to meet Ness at the ledge.

 

My question is what nerfs would you implement to balance her out without destroying the character or killing her base combo oriented design?

I get both sides of the argument but lets break it down. Her weaknesses are enumerous. I would name them all but they have already been listed several times. My question is this: without her combos and witch time, what else does she have to kill at reasonable percents?

I would say youd have to get rid of her ability to kill off of combos, and make her more like sheik where she can build damage easily but has to kill late.

Also her smashes I feel would have to be given higer priority. Part of the reason that her kill combos and witch time are so important is that she has no other reliable ways to kill outside of bair, whereas most other characters can rely on their smash attacks. Especially after a certain percent. Your window for getting that death ladder is fairly small. Once your opponent gets to around 100 percent, her death combos wont work. She has confirms at those higher percents, yes, but many characters do. If witch time gets nerfed too much, she has 1 out of 2 less tools. If her combos are nerfed too hard, same thing. If both, she is useless.

We can't expect Sakurai to keep balancing the game, so my fear is that, if she does get nerfed again it'll be way too much and they wont go back to balance that out.

From what I know about Bayonetta, which is a lot cuz I use her religiously, the amount of times I actually get a zero to death is super low compared to how often I have to resort to a more reliable, but less lethal combo ender. Playing against a good player, I have to try SUPER hard to catch them in witch time, and then I still have a chance to drop that combo. A pretty high chance, since I have to take into account each characters weight, DI, damage and the stage. Literally anything can mess the combo up. Outside of combos and WT, her moveset is riddled with weaknesses.

 

BlackCephie read my earlier post for more detail. Just reduce the amount of vertical lift she gets ONLY when she hits an opponent. http://smashboards.com/threads/tsm-zero-lets-talk-bayonetta-drama.433916/page-4#post-21042215 hope I did that correctly.

 

I really think Zero is too salty, would he be as good as he is in brawl without Meta Knight? Most likely not, and Bayonetta is not broken or overpowered in any way close to brawl Meta Knight, even though MK is innocent too, I feel like Zero is a For Glory scrub from watching this video. I feel ESAM covered the other side of the topic wayy better in his video, I lost respect for Zero because of this video. If I had to say 1 good thing about this video, it would be the editing, I think if edited all his videos like this, they would be a lot more enjoyable so props for that

 

I feel like Zero is a For Glory scrub from watching this video

I stopped reading here. Disagree with the man, but calling zero a scrub is essentially saying your opinion on this issue is not one worth having. He could beat you at smash with one hand tied behind his back.

 

Oops double post sorry.

 

My question is what nerfs would you implement to balance her out without destroying the character or killing her base combo oriented design?

They didn't seem to care when they killed Meta Knight. Just make it impossible to kill someone from zero percent from the ground, make the combos do less damage, and maybe make her Fthrow a little stronger. Less reward for almost no risk.

 

[deleting]

 

Well said
You just made my day a lot better

 

I know Sakurai loves making fighters true to themselves, but sometimes that needs to be sacrificed for the sake of balancing.

Bayonetta can still 0-death you if they read your D.I, and don't even think that they won't at tournament level. Bayonetta, as a character in Smash, is unbalanced beyond belief because she invalidates characters entirely.
Every heavy in the game suffers massively in the Bayo matchup in tournament play just for being a heavy, making them into cannon fodder for her to rip to pieces because of her combos and essentially negating their tournament presence entirely.

This sort of issue is something I can't think anybody would be behind just because they main Bayonetta. Of course, I may be wrong; because it appears she has such staunch defenders crying "SHE'S NOT BROKEN YOU CAN BEAT HER!"

I shouldn't need to switch mains for one MU. Shiek and Zamus were hard, but doable matches for a heavy. Bayo is not a doable match at all for heavies, or if she is the MU is so insanely difficult that it's just not worth it.

Bayonetta is cancerous to the diversity of the Smash 4 meta, just like Meta Knight and Icies were in Brawl. I don't care how you claim she isn't, but ANY character that can utterly negate others soley based on a single attribute is a character that is cancerous to a metagame.

Why do you think Street Fighter tournaments ban Akuma? Because he's so good that it overcentralizes the meta around "which character can beat Akuma the best" rather than "which character has the best MU spread". Basically, a cancerous character for a meta.

Bayonetta, as much as I'm no proponent of banning characters, is a character that may need regulating or an outright ban in order to prevent metagame stagnation from occuring. I hesitate in saying we should look into banning her, but this is an option we might need to look into should she prove overwhelmingly dominant in tournaments.

 

He stated the reasons why he believed her to be toxic to smash. He also said that he would learn to beat Bayonetta. If you take that as whining, you can, but I think that there's a tendency for people to think, "If you say anything negative, it's whining, making you a [insert scrub or equivalent]". You can't say anything bad about anything these days without it being taken as whining. What do you want Zero to say? Should we ignore the problems with Bayonetta because pointing them out is whining? Comments like yours sound like actual whining (about criticism) to me, just saying. To be fair, there are a number of people that just complain and whine about her, and it's easy to read the pattern of negativity being linked to whining, but whining should be differentiated from negative opinions/criticism and not lumped together with them. Was Zero whining? Not in my opinion, but you're free to think what you like.

There's a difference though. As I mentioned in a previous comment, the things he said in his video also applied to pre-patch Sheik but since she was his main, he told us smashboards players "Stop being lazy and ignorant and adapt to the MU"

Fast foward two or three patches later, Sheik gets nerfed and he's like "Why should I adapt to Bayo when she's toxic and not fun to play against?" which is exactly the same feeling we had towards Sheik but did he care? No cause Sheik was the one he used.

As for the other points, he said more in a exaggerated salty way with misinformation that makes him lose most (if not all) credibility on his video. You CAN DI out of her death combos, WT is a counter so if people could get as often as he implies, then why not play Corrin? At least that one kills earlier with less work., etc, etc.

The ONLY THING that I consider OP on Bayo is her fresh Witch Time duration which gives the player a full 3s to do what he/she likes which is sort of BS but meh.