TSM | ZeRo - Let's Talk: Bayonetta Drama

In the Smash 4 community Bayonetta has been the current cause for drama and discussion. The newest DLC and essentially the winner of the Super Smash Bros. Ballot, Bayonetta has stunned many with her impressive combo game and many powerful tools. Some have called for a ban against her even this early on and the debates on her range from polite to fiery across the board. TSM's own ZeRo, the Chillean master of Smash 4 famous for his massive tournament winning streak, has created a video to share his thoughts on the matter and promote discussion on the subject. Agree with what he has to say?

A lot of points were made in this video and we encourage our readers to discuss them in the comments below. Where will Bayonetta end up in competitive play? Will she be nerfed? Only time can tell but we promise Smashboards will be there to report the story as it develops.

 

I'm not going to go on why Bayo is strong or not. What I do hate is how ZeRo mentions things about Bayo that applied to pre-patch Sheik.

"Playing against Bayonetta is toxic, because it creates an environment where people don't enjoy playing"

Well so did Sheik but that didn't stop him now did it? Do I have to remind him that he spammed Dthrow 4 times to Ranai at in order to take the game? I don't think there's a sane human in this world that would enjoy losing like that. Especially considering that she used to rival Marth's range, out-rushes Falcon and can camp harder than a lot of projectile users.

"Adapt, but why do that? When people are forced to adapt they often end up quitting."

What was it that ZeRo called the players here in smashboards when they complained about Sheik? Oh right, lazy and ignorant. And that we should just learn the Sheik MU, a.k.a., Adapt. Well look who's talking **** now!

"Sheik is very difficult to play, much more than Bayonetta"

While I do agree Sheik is harder to play than Bayo, don't over exaggerate either. Any decent player can become a really good Sheik in a week or two considering what tools she had at her disposal. I mean, it wasn't that hard to Fthrow -> Down B, or convert out of Fairs and then finally Dthrow -> Up B/Uair. In a sticky neutral situation? Spam needles. Rinse and repeat till win. A truly hard character to learn would be Peach, Megaman or Ryu.

I just...at first I didn't mind ZeRo but now I find him so damn annoying.

 

Barely. Both Corrin and Bayonetta are relatively unchanged

Nope. Corrin got hit the hardest.

She has unnecessary nerfs to her speed, attacks and just feels worst than before

 

Brawl players were told to git gud for 6+ years. Smash 4 players get Bayonetta for 2 months and lose their minds.

 

I can not believe what I am reading. People are threatening to quit if she is not banned? Oh my goodness. And you guys are over exaggerating what she can do so much. Yes she can kill you at zero if you're caught off guard, but if you have any clue about the match up and know what DI is, that shouldn't be happening. Bayonetta does not consistently kill people at zero, but reading this thread it seems like it. If you guys start DIing instead of only pressing the air dodge button then maybe you won't get comboed to hell. I hate how saying that good DI works against Bayonetta has turned into a meme because it's true... I guess it's time to educate some of you since you guys are too lazy to lab her yourself.

Dive Kick

If you are shielding that move, you're already doing it wrong. First of all, if a dive kick move does hit your shield it is punishiable. I have seen characters like Bowser punish me with an up air for it. It's punishable if you can react quickly enough. A second way to punish it would be to walk backwards and let them dive kick right in front of your face. Only 2 people I've fought have done this, and it makes doing dive kicks way more risky. If you anticipate a dive kick coming then walk or jump backwards and then punish them. And the third way to punish it would be to challenge it. Players like The Wall have been challenging my dive kick with smash attacks and it's a worthy trade. Shielding is not ideal, but even then you can punish it from hitting your shield if you're fast enough and if your character can do it (Don't know if your character can? Then lab it out. Find ways!) You people are still conditioned into thinking shielding moves should equal a free punish. Have we forgotten the shield patch? Or were you told that shield would beat Bayonetta and that you should just stay in shield? Newsflash, Bayo players are finding ways to beat shield and poke safely. Now adapt to their adaptation. There are moves like ZSS' flip kick, Peach's side B, Sonic's neutral B, and Sheik's bouncing fish that do the exact same thing. People are saying it's not punishable, but has anyone actually labbed a way to punish it in the first place? Why are you even getting hit by that move in the first place? It should be easy to react to. If you hate dive kick that much then stop going to stages with few platforms. I.e. smashville, town and city, and FD.

Witch Twist

Now for the up B known as witch twist. This thing is a noob destroyer. Meaning it is a tool that overwhelms noobs because they lack the fundamentals to beat it. It's the same reason why people hate Ness' backthrow. One mistake could equal death. But at high level play, people should not be doing unsafe moves on shield in the first place and getting hit with witch twist OOS. And like someone else said, using it nets you stage loss which is super important and can turn the tide of a match. And if someone is only running up to you and witch twisting then dive kicking back, then read that and punish it however you can. Obviously it may not be a hard punish, but a punish is still a punish. Also she has 20+ frames of landing lag whenever she does a special move. Some people literally watch me land after doing something crazy in the air when they could be punishing me because they respect Bayonetta too much which you should respect her, but not to the point where you let her get away with things for free.

Witch Time

If you're playing a Bayonetta that loves witch time, know that is takes ~30+ seconds for a witch time to fully recharge. So when you bait it out, that's when you can go in without worry. After the whiffs the first witch time, the time on the second witch time is reduced significantly. If he lands a second witch time on you within 30 seconds you might die by an uncharged smash attack. She won't have time to go for a full charge smash attack anymore because the witch time would be too short. If he whiffs 2 witch times within 30 seconds, that's when you can go 100% in if you want to because a 3rd witch time would be so useless and pointless. He won't have time to do anything at all except maybe a grab. Maybe. "But how do I bait it out?" Positional pressure. Just like how you bait out air dodges and spot dodges. Do not pressure her by throwing out random moves. That's how Bayonetta will beat you. Be close enough where you'll pressure her to press buttons simply by being near her. Walk and shield, short hop air dodge, full hops (I don't recommend short hops since the heel slide can get you), etc. Stop throwing out moves you know won't hit.

Heel slide

Shield beats this move. Easily. Especially after the nerf. If she hits your shield with this move, most characters can just turn around forward smash. Or if you have a tether grab then just turn around and grab. I would not worry about always trying to grab her if she does a hell slide on your shield. You don't need to punish everything with grabs so you can start your bread and butter combos. That's how most people get caught by the kick flip part.


I could say more about her other moves, but I can't do everything for you people. All I have left to say is to learn. Because do we want to nerf every character to the point where Pit and Mario are the top characters to play because we refuse to learn match ups? People say they are trying to find ways, but are they really? Because these are things you could find out with just one or two hours of serious practice against Bayonetta. Outside of witch time Bayonetta is in no way as powerful as some of you make her out to be. She is not even close to being overpowered to the point where she should be banned. Not. Even. Close.

Honestly, I think this video from Zero was terrible. It did nothing but fuel the fire with his obviously biased opinions. Just listen to what he says about Sheik. Made me cringe. If she was as easy people made her out to be then why aren't top 8s consisting with half of Bayonettas. Why aren't top 3 of locals all Bayonettas? But since people take Zero's word as the gospel, Bayonetta players are gonna get even more crap because now people will be saying "You're getting carried!!! You can't say anything back because Zero also said so!!!!!" and instead of getting better they'll just fall back on the "Well Bayonetta is unfair anyways, I should be losing" excuse. I do not understand this whining (yes at this point this is basically whining) when characters like Rosa and Sheik do the exact same thing where they force you to play different. Do people expect to play auto pilot in every match up and win?

I'm rambling now. I'll leave it at that.

 

ZeRo brought up a lot of great points in the video that I think people who are being babies about banning her should listen to this video for instead of crying.

 

You guys are all scrubs. Bayonetta is pretty easy to beat with Mario. All I do is play defensive and patient. Block and grab her side special and combo her. Lots of spot dodges. I'll intentionally D-Throw and U-air, then bait the Witch time........

Witch time whiffs lead to powerful punishes with Mario, with more grabs, Strong patient Up smashes, F-smashes, Done. You guys are all scrubs including Zero. Bayonetta is EASY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EASY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Probably easy with other characters as well, do you guys not know how to play defensive, campy, stay low to the ground and BAIT and PUNISH!! Thats the game plan Scrubs. EASY!!!!!!!

As far as Zero saying Bayo being like Brawl Ice-Climbers. Absolutely ****ING Non-Sense!!!! WHAT??!! Thats is so stupid. I quit brawl because of ice-climbers infinite chain-grab; when Bayo Came out I easily first saw "Wow. Bayonetta is so Easy." Bunch of scrubs don't don't how to play patient, low to the ground and baiting and punishing. All you have to do is shield the HPK's and punish her landings, which are laggy. Wtf is wrong with people!!!!!


I suspect Zero's anger in this video has a lot to do with Sheik getting nerfed. And I Strongly suspect that Zero is taking advantage of his platform and position to manipulate the smash community to hate on Bayonetta, in the hopes of having her get nerfed in a new patch; and therefore also hoping that sheik gets buffed with her 50/50 back. Salty and ego driven!!!!. I think that you guys that are believing this crap are a bunch of sheeps that don't have a mind of your own to form your own opinion. You guys are straight up being used by Zero just because he's mad that sheik was nerfed........ WAKE UP!

**********

 

For real?
This is because of Sheik getting nerfed, isn't it?
Real talk tho, Bayo's moves are pretty laggy. Just learn the matchup.
Not like she's broken, geeze. A ban, lol..

I think this is exactly what zero was saying. He didn't say to ban her. He said he wouldn't pick her up because he wants to learn to beat her, as in learn the match up and beat her.

 

Cause clearly the bayo player can't do that too am I right

Yeah but that doesn't make you any less capable of doing it too

 

Dive Kick

If you are shielding that move, you're already doing it wrong. First of all, if a dive kick move does hit your shield it is punishiable. I have seen characters like Bowser punish me with an up air for it. It's punishable if you can react quickly enough. A second way to punish it would be to walk backwards and let them dive kick right in front of your face. Only 2 people I've fought have done this, and it makes doing dive kicks way more risky. If you anticipate a dive kick coming then walk or jump backwards and then punish them. And the third way to punish it would be to challenge it. Players like The Wall have been challenging my dive kick with smash attacks and it's a worthy trade. Shielding is not ideal, but even then you can punish it from hitting your shield if you're fast enough and if your character can do it (Don't know if your character can? Then lab it out. Find ways!) You people are still conditioned into thinking shielding moves should equal a free punish. Have we forgotten the shield patch? Or were you told that shield would beat Bayonetta and that you should just stay in shield? Newsflash, Bayo players are finding ways to beat shield and poke safely. Now adapt to their adaptation. There are moves like ZSS' flip kick, Peach's side B, Sonic's neutral B, and Sheik's bouncing fish that do the exact same thing. People are saying it's not punishable, but has anyone actually labbed a way to punish it in the first place? Why are you even getting hit by that move in the first place? It should be easy to react to. If you hate dive kick that much then stop going to stages with few platforms. I.e. smashville, town and city, and FD.

Witch Twist

Now for the up B known as witch twist. This thing is a noob destroyer. Meaning it is a tool that overwhelms noobs because they lack the fundamentals to beat it. It's the same reason why people hate Ness' backthrow. One mistake could equal death. But at high level play, people should not be doing unsafe moves on shield in the first place and getting hit with witch twist OOS. And like someone else said, using it nets you stage loss which is super important and can turn the tide of a match. And if someone is only running up to you and witch twisting then dive kicking back, then read that and punish it however you can. Obviously it may not be a hard punish, but a punish is still a punish. Also she has 20+ frames of landing lag whenever she does a special move. Some people literally watch me land after doing something crazy in the air when they could be punishing me because they respect Bayonetta too much which you should respect her, but not to the point where you let her get away with things for free.

Witch Time

If you're playing a Bayonetta that loves witch time, know that is takes ~30+ seconds for a witch time to fully recharge. So when you bait it out, that's when you can go in without worry. After he whiffs the first witch time, the time on the second witch time is reduced significantly. If he lands a second witch time on you within 30 seconds you might die by an uncharged smash attack. She won't have time to go for a full charge smash attack anymore because the witch time would be to short. If he whiffs 2 witch times within 30 seconds, that's when you can go 100% in if you want to because a 3rd witch time would be so useless and pointless. He won't have time to do anything at all except maybe a grab. Maybe. "But how do I bait it out?" Positional pressure. Just like how you bait out air dodges and spot dodges. Do not pressure her by throwing out random moves. That's how Bayonetta will beat you. Be close enough where you'll pressure her to press buttons simply by being near her. Walk and shield, short hop air dodge, full hops (I don't recommend short hops since the heel slide can get you), etc. Stop throwing out moves you know won't hit.

DiveKick comes out frame 8. If people are challenging it with Smash attacks then that just means you're telegraphing it to an insane degree. Plus the craziest thing about it is that you can actually use ABK away from your opponent and reset for free, and your opponent has to stop everything out of respect for Divekick. So basically Bayo can easily reset to neutral against most everyone. If she's smart and uses the threat of Dropkick effectively she shouldn't have any trouble resetting to neutral for free.

Also frame 4 OOS into 50%/death combos is insanely good. You can say spacing all you want, but at high levels of play people do move in order to disrupt your spacing, and frame 4 means nearly anything that results in you being in range for Witch Twist is getting punished. Witch Time obviously does need to be used somewhat judiciously to be effective, but the cooldown on it is still less than other counters when it's as or more rewarding than them. Bayo players in general haven't developed the character enough to fully utilize the psychological power of her crazy fast and threatening tools because she's still pretty new and spamming gets you farther than it should right now. She's not unbeatable and a good ways away from being banworthy, but pretending she doesn't have some very overtuned tools that are unhealthy for the game is crazy.

 

Imo she's overtuned but not completely overpowered, hence not ban worthy.

Her death combo is reminding me so much of PM G&W's up b -> double jump -> nair (parachute) and the amount of complaining that it yielded (but nothing as ridiculous as ban the character). But the difference is that PM G&W has to worry about landing the up b in the first place and landing back down if he misses. It also definitely didn't kill starting at 20% lmao.

 

Brawl players were told to git gud for 6+ years. Smash 4 players get Bayonetta for 2 months and lose their minds.

Remember what happened to Brawl, though? Brawl is completely dead now, now while that has more to do with the speed and mechanics more than the balancing, we have to remember Brawl ICs and Meta Knight totally ruined the meta in that game..

 

Much as I agree with Zero on the nominal topic of the video, his constant protestations of "It's just my opinion" and "Oh hey I realize that everything I said applies to Shiek and the way she used to be and still mostly is, but I'm just going to ignore that and say that it was totally different and she takes so much more skill, like, you don't even know you guys" in that whiny voice of his really made me want him to be wrong just for being such a childish lump of crap.

Fortunately I am a grown man and can look past such things. Still doesn't instill me with much respect for Zero, though.

 

Bayonetta brings an interesting moment 22 to the game, her framedata is kinda slow, except for with time that comes out frame 5.

Meaning you can abuse that by throwing faster moves against her, problem is if you do, you sometimes risk getting witchtimed, which means you lose.

Checking the Data, grabs are often as fast as her dtilt, so approaching with a ton of grabs could be good, except dtilt beats it since it's in the defensive position, meaning it gets frame advantage since you prob need to dashgrab.

 

Question, how good is her grab?

Question, why is that consequential when she doesn't need it?

 

ZeRo makes some strong arguments about the controversy behind her, but if I were to nitpick his video, he aught to have also pointed out who prompted such a fighter to begin with.

I believe Bayonetta is Smash 4's prime example of the phrase "Be careful what you wish for". several naysayers looked at past games and complained that smash 4 (allegedly) doesn't have many combos and that "few" fighters were capable of such... they wanted long combos, they got it, but not once did any high profile critics go into detail as to what KIND of combos they were looking for, and videos don't describe things well enough.

 

Question, why is that consequential when she doesn't need it?

...Honestly, I don't even know. I just wanted to ask.

I've only played like...two Bayonettas. But they weren't as combo-heavy and they seemed to just play her as if she was a normal character.

I sometimes just feel really stupid when I ask these sorts of things.

 

Very well said by Zero. As a Communications major I also appreciated the bullet points! Am I the only one that actually enjoys the MU though? My scene and I have been discussing this since we've watched Zero's video and there are plenty of other matchups that I'd prefer not to see as opposed to Bayo. Rosa and Cloud to name a couple. It's important for everyone to realize that Bayonetta is still relatively new. Only time will tell how she will fit in the meta, and by no means should we over exaggerate her inclusion to Smash 4. In the Michigan scene, there has already been a TO that BANNED her at his tournaments. A prime example of things we shouldn't even begin to consider at this point and time.

I agree. At one point (in the 3ds days) Little Mac was considered broken! Something far less extreme than this is likely to happen.

 

She's not insanely overtuned/overpowered (borderline broken) for any reasons except:

Witch time being the only counter that doesn't scale with move strength, therefore making all your opponents moves super high-risk since she can easily confirm kill combos off of any successful witch time -- while no other character gets nearly as much.

Death combos that are relatively easy to do, impossible to DI against a good player (way too much time to read your DI and do the appropriate version of the combo) regardless of the misinformation people keep spreading that connect off of potentially safe moves (dive kick) or off of one of her opponents ordinarily low risk moves via witch-time.

There are the tools that break the risk/reward mechanism the game depends on. If they were appropriately nerfed she'd be fine, and the nerfs are simple.

Witch Time: Scales with the damage of the WT'd move. WT a jab you get nothing, WT a smash attack and you get a lot. Can scale either length or the KBG/damage the player receives during WT.

Combos: reduce the vertical carry of the version of her up-b used in combos (where you don't hold) so that she can't kill people off the top. Instead, let her end her combos with her up-air, so that the combos can kill, but only at higher percents.

Anyway, I think Bayo has a worse impact on the game than Sheik did (somewhere between old Diddy and Sheik imo), but Sheik was definitely a problem and it's a good thing she got nerfed.

 

Honestly, while I may not feel that the strength of ZeRo's words is appropriate, the message is very much so; Bayonetta is a character with a very borked balancing job, and if this is the end of Smash balancing, I feel like we may need to consider banning her or at least imposing rules on her like with Brawl Meta Knight.

While it may be amazing for Bayo players to see Bayo doing great in tournaments, people need to imagine what **** characters like Charizard have in dealing with Bayo's gameplan. It is a nightmare to play the Bayo match as Charizard, and considering he's a stellar example of how great characters can become, I feel like having a character that utterly butt****s him and most of the other non-top characters is downright unfair. Shiek and Zamus are hard enough for characters like Charizard, but now we have a character that can KO us off of a single whiffed move.

And why?

Because we're big. That's the only reason. We're big and therefore are combo fodder for her because somebody decided that giving a character the ability to 0-death heavies consistently off of any goddamn mistake or whiff was a good ****ing game balance decision.

This isn't me ******** about Bayo being broken, this is me saying that Bayo is really detrimental to the growth of the meta; and if we don't catch that before it gets really bad, we'll end up in a similar situation to Melee; where the only characters that are common are those in the S tier, and anything below B is basically abandoned by the community.

Everyone here, even ZeRo, plays this game to have fun. This game isn't a money-making thing for us, it's a passion we love and want to see grow. And if that means banning a character that could utterly stagnate the meta into only choosing characters that work against that one character...
Then I would ban Bayo in a heartbeat if it meant more people could enjoy playing in tournaments.

The Brawl competetive scene banned Meta Knight, despite that many top players mained him, because he was detrimental and overfocusing on the game's meta.

Bayonetta is exactly. the. same. If you guys are having fun with Bayo, that's fine. But it's not fair to the people who play other characters that can't do well against Bayo to be essentially told "GET GUD AND PLAY BAYO SCRUB".

I shouldn't have to drop a character I love for a character I dislike simply because otherwise I'm NEVER GOING TO DO WELL. That is a calling card of a bad metagame, and most games try to avoid **** like this.

I'm not calling for Bayo to be banned (as much as this situation is highly reminiscent of Brawl Meta Knight), I'm not demonizing Bayo players for playing Bayonetta as a character.

I'm speaking as a person concerned for the health of the meta that I feel like Bayonetta may do a lot more harm than good for this game's meta, simply because she's too goddamn good.

Again, people shouldn't need to pick up characters they don't like playing just to place decently without getting bodied by Bayos. So if it comes to the point where Bayo has to be banned for the game to continue being interesting, then nobody has any right to ***** and whine about it when it happens because they deem it "NOT FAIR THAT BAYO GOT BANNED BUT SHIEK AND DIDDY DIDN'T", because Diddy and Shiek didn't have the ability to kill off of a mother****ing JAB.

Forgot who said it but basically you don't even need to pick up a campy character you just need to change your playstyle. I like to play Robin and when I go against say CFalc he is really fast so I play more defensive and patient and then punish him trying to overreach. In the opposite direction when I fight against a Bowser even though Bowser is quite fast he is also very susceptible to an aggressive playstyle and I can pull that off with Robin too.

As good as she is her playstyle is honestly telegraphed a lot. You can see it on video all the time watching a few different Bayos play. Check out Pink Fresh, Salem, DC while you are in the middle of the game it may be harder to calm yourself down but when you step back you see it clearly and can strategize around it.

Also I'm pretty sure Zero plays this game for money. He plays with friends to have fun. If you don't take tournaments seriously then chances are you play for fun and getting better really won't matter because you are not trying to beat the best anyway. Zero plays Sheik and Diddy especially pre patch because he wants to win and that will give him the best chance.

If you think you need to drop your character to do well then do it but don't blame it on other characters the fault lies in yours. Perfect example is Ganon. While I love playing Ganon and have fun with him because he is one of my favorite characters from LoZ I will be honest with myself and realize I will not be getting top 8 not just because I am bad but I am truly handicapping myself.

Remember when People thought Bowser was OP until someone said "Oh yeah, we can just learn to combo duh." I wonder what happened to that.

Oh BTW check out this sweet video I found on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7UXahcwNdM

So now I can post this instead of telling people that Zero needs to "git gud" because it no longer is me saying it but Zero saying it not only to himself but everyone. Owned?

 

He probably should have shown the dive kick > dive kick > witch twist > f-air > witch twist > f-air > f-air > dead so people know what he's talking about.

 

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned

I'll just leave this here.

 

Combos: reduce the vertical carry of the version of her up-b used in combos (where you don't hold) so that she can't kill people off the top. Instead, let her end her combos with her up-air, so that the combos can kill, but only at higher percents.

The SDI multiplier of some combo moves could also be increased so that non-TAS players actually have a chance of evading combos (not by much, sure, but enough to avoid breaking controllers).

As for my general opinion on Bayonetta, I definitely think she's a bit overtuned, but not impossible to deal with even without a radical change in gameplay style. I play a pretty aggressive Mario even against Bayo, and maybe it's just the fact that I only play on FG, but I've seen many Bayo players approach me with Heel Slide or dash attack, which I just punish with an OOS down-throw up-air combo every time.

 

His video does nothing but cause hate for Bayonetta mains that aren't top players. There was no reason to post it.

 

Quite the interesting topic, and I'm not sure where I stand. It still almost feels way too early for me to have an opinion. I can't pin as of yet whether Bayo is very, very good, or If I'm just lacking match-up knowledge. In my opinion, time will tell from here on out.

 

I honestly just hate Bayonetta because her playstyle to me is toxic, and the way to deal with it, is playing toxic yourself. I felt the same way about Ice CLimbers in Melee and Brawl. It's not that I can't deal with it, I just don't want to, makes the game less fun for me. I don't care how good she is, I hated her before the patch, and I hate her now. I didn't mind Sheik, I do mind Bayonetta

Yes I think ICs in Brawl were more toxic than Meta Knight

 

For once I actually agree with Zero, Bayonetta is flat out broken, Witch Time is ridiculous, and her insane zero to death combos are just stupid. I was fine with Sheik being the best character in the game, Sheik was reasonably good and could be played around, Sheik was a match-up that someone could study and capitalize on her weaknesses. Sure, Bayonetta was nerfed but not NEARLY enough to make her a reasonable character. She really needs to be nerfed pretty hard to restore balance to this game. I think it's way too early to talk about banning the character but something needs to change that's definite. Bayonetta is without a doubt the best character in the game now and her weaknesses are not nearly strong enough to capitalize on. TBH though I'm almost positive she will be nerfed again, Sakurai is listening very closely to what the competitive community has to say this time around and I'm almost certain he realizes that Bayonetta is a problem.

 

Don't get me wrong, but I hate the whole character counter-picking thing. So to beat Bayonetta I have to choose characters that are basically irrelevant to the meta? Seems kind of stupid.

That basically means the game will come down to whether so and so on can beat Bayonetta. Not a diverse meta where everyone character can be played at least somewhat competently.

Not only that, but we have to look at the play styles for characters and players. Do you guys really think that everyone enjoys running around the map and tossing out boomerangs or missiles as Toon Link or Samus? And then we have the characters. You guys think it's going to be easy playing defensively as someone like Captain Falcon or Marth? Heck no. They'll end getting screwed in the end simply due to the fact that they can't beat Bayonetta.

Just saying.

 

For once I actually agree with Zero, Bayonetta is flat out broken, Witch Time is ridiculous, and her insane zero to death combos are just stupid. I was fine with Sheik being the best character in the game, Sheik was reasonably good and could be played around, Sheik was a match-up that someone could study and capitalize on her weaknesses. Sure, Bayonetta was nerfed but not NEARLY enough to make her a reasonable character. She really needs to be nerfed pretty hard to restore balance to this game. I think it's way too early to talk about banning the character but something needs to change that's definite. Bayonetta is without a doubt the best character in the game now and her weaknesses are not nearly strong enough to capitalize on. TBH though I'm almost positive she will be nerfed again, Sakurai is listening very closely to what the competitive community has to say this time around and I'm almost certain he realizes that Bayonetta is a problem.

I am almost certain that his team has no idea how to properly nerf/buff anyone. They honestly can't listen to this community or at least don't listen to the correct people. Perfect example would be Corrin. Why nerf Corrin's run speed. Sure it wasn't significant but it was very unnecessary and Corrin's run speed was not the issue to focus on.

 

Normally I'd say "get good", but the fact that players just picked her up and started placing in tournaments is a little concerning.
Even with Sheik, you at least had to practice hard to get good. A character should not be doing so well so early.

I get the whole "learn the match up" thing. But it's not even a case of learning the matchup. They just gotta get one lucky Witch Time guess at high percentages and boom, dead.
It's such a safe move because even if you miss, you flip back, unlike other counter moves where you'll just stand like an idiot. The give you enough time to rush in for a grab. With Bayo, you gotta be anticipating that she's gonna do her down B to punish it. Like, as in you already gotta be rushing towards her before she even does it.

It was clearly designed for Four Player Smash, where Bayo is still vunerable to the other 2 characters.


And then there's her ridiculously easy to do combo that is hard to DI out of and, like ZeRo says, all she's gotta do is react to your DI.

Bayo is essentially a melee character in a game that is set to the mechanics of Smash 4. She's got true combos and insane speed.

As for banning her now, that's stupid. Just wait for everyone to be picking her and then make the ban. Cuz of she never loses, then yeah, she's only gonna kill Smash 4. With characters like Fox in Melee who also get picked by everyone, data suggests that other characters can beat him.
So I say we wait a couple years. With time, the data will suggest if she should be banned or not.

In the meantime, I'm gonna keep assuming she's beatable and take ZeRo's advice. Practice, practice, practice.
I won't pick her cuz I don't want to win with a tactic like Witch Time.
If I lose, then I lost and if it bothers me that much, I'll just go play something else. I don't have to play Smash 4 if it annoys me.

 

Don't get me wrong, but I hate the whole character counter-picking thing. So to beat Bayonetta I have to choose characters that are basically irrelevant to the meta? Seems kind of stupid.

That is literally how metagames work. "A" is countered by "B" which itself is countered by "C" which is countered by A or D, ad infinum.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

 

How to nerf Bayonetta to balance her out:
1. Reduce vertical range on Witch Twist.

Done.

 

People told me that I should fear the MU with her, but as a Rosalina player, I'm doing just fine against her

There's why.

 

There's why.

I do fine against Bayonetta as my other characters too.

But my point was that everyone was telling me that Rosalina would be a character that would struggle heavily against Bayonetta. Even that Bayonetta would be a counter-pick. And I'm still doing fine.

And even assuming "it's solely because I'm playing Rosalina", then that's not necessarily a bad thing either. Certain characters are good against certain other characters. It's always been like that, the fact that people are so ticked off by not being able to play a rushdown fastfaller against Bayonetta goes to show how truly unwilling to win and step up their game they are.

 

I do fine against Bayonetta as my other characters too.

But my point was that everyone was telling me that Rosalina would be a character that would struggle heavily against Bayonetta. Even that Bayonetta would be a counter-pick. And I'm still doing fine.

And even assuming "it's solely because I'm playing Rosalina", then that's not necessarily a bad thing either. Certain characters are good against certain other characters. It's always been like that, the fact that people are so ticked off by not being able to play a rushdown fastfaller against Bayonetta goes to show how truly unwilling to win and step up their game they are.

Hi.

I don't play a rushdown fastfaller. Bayonetta is a 9-1 matchup for my character due to, among other things, lol rapid fire hitstun lasers being back in the game.

Shut your stupid face.

 

Hi.

I don't play a rushdown fastfaller. Bayonetta is a 9-1 matchup for my character due to, among other things, lol rapid fire hitstun lasers being back in the game.

Shut your stupid face.

Your name and this comment could not be a more accurate representation of the Smash 4 community.

Thanks for the laugh.

 

Nope. Corrin got hit the hardest.

She has unnecessary nerfs to her speed, attacks and just feels worst than before

I can sneeze at those "speed" nerfs. and only her up-air,dragon shot, and counter were nerfed. and they barely were hit

 

That is literally how metagames work. "A" is countered by "B" which itself is countered by "C" which is countered by A or D, ad infinum.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

Except most meta games don't boil down to whether one/a few characters can beat the other. Especially when all of the characters required to beat this overwhelming powerful character have a specific play style.

That just leads to a really bad meta. Even in Melee. One of the main reasons people still play that game is due to the amount of viable characters. Do you really think people would still play Melee if reached 20XX? I mean look at Brawl. That game had like 4 viable characters and pretty much died off.

 

I am almost certain that his team has no idea how to properly nerf/buff anyone. They honestly can't listen to this community or at least don't listen to the correct people. Perfect example would be Corrin. Why nerf Corrin's run speed. Sure it wasn't significant but it was very unnecessary and Corrin's run speed was not the issue to focus on.

I agree that some of the changes seem arbitrary, but at least they nerfed that ridiculous Counter Surge.

 

Hi.

I don't play a rushdown fastfaller. Bayonetta is a 9-1 matchup for my character due to, among other things, lol rapid fire hitstun lasers being back in the game.

Shut your stupid face.

Try picking up a pocket Bowser and just grab her a bunch. Can't guarantee that it'll work against high-level Bayos, but against the scrubs who spam with her he should work fine. Yes she's frustrating and I'd like her to be nerfed, but for now you might as well explore other options for dealing with her if you don't feel your main has the tools to deal with her.

 

It's really way too early to be even having this discussion. More patches could be incoming anyway.

@Dastardly Ridleylash

No, Zero plays (and makes videos) to make a living. To say he doesn't is objectively, factually wrong. He might enjoy it too, but it is how he makes a living. There's nothing wrong with his career choice. You don't have to feel guilty because of the truth.

SiO2
Well, Zero did explain in the video that people like Komorikiri have already produced solid results with the character. Komorikiri himself won a huge tournament in Japan with her, apparently. But he is one of the top five Smash players in the world.. as Zero says.

G Gimmick
That's kind of how fighting games work? Counter picks are very common in the competitive scene. So your whole thing is "I don't like it, so we shouldn't have it" which also includes excluding characters just because you don't like them. That's a little rude, to be honest. I'm glad we don't decide things based on whether someone likes that character personally or not, THAT would be incredibly toxic, lol. Not to mention extremely damaging to the meta. Well, that whole post of yours was kind of a joke I guess..

Kudos to Zero for playing Hotel Dusk music though. I love those games.