Triforce of Wisdom: Mindgames, Applied ATs, and Strategies

[TimeSmash]

Multi-hit attacks often have many frames with hitboxes aimed inward, and then have a final outward hitbox frame. IOW Zelda's Nair drags enemies inward, and on the last frame, they're fired in seemingly random directions. In reality, they're just being moved from one hitbox to another, until the final hitframe comes with the outward hitboxes. However close they are to each of the four hitboxes on that last hitframe determines their trajectory.

Could you explain this with an example in terms of direction? Like say I wanted to send someone to the right

Also, Nair into Nayru's is kind of a nice thing to do sometimes. Hard to DI away from.

 

[ECHOnce]

Could you explain this with an example in terms of direction? Like say I wanted to send someone to the right

Also, Nair into Nayru's is kind of a nice thing to do sometimes. Hard to DI away from.

Rereading what I said, my explanation was pretty repetitive and possibly confusing aha. Well...I'm not an expert on it or anything, but just going off of the frame/hitbox .gif I linked to, only the last hitbox frame is significant in terms of where they'll be sent towards, and their placement in the N-air's hitboxes leading up to that last frame will be dependent on their DI and you're movement.

Depending on their DI and how much horizontal/vertical momentum you had/maintain, they're gonna end up on the left/right/top/bottom of at least one of the four hitboxes. Opponents who react don't react in time, or aren't aware of DI, will often DI forwards, backwards, or not at all (depending on whether they were approaching, retreating, etc.). Those who are experienced in DI will try use combo-DI at low %s, or survival-DI at mid-high %s (sometimes expecting a LK?). Experiment and figure out which way they tend to go more frequently under diff circumstances.

For example, you're approaching from the left (facing right) and our opponent is inexperienced with DI. If he starts approaching you by holding the control stick to the left, (disregarding any combos/punishes that follow when you catch him in the N-air, his hold on the control stick to the left will translate into DI to the left. This'll help him stay towards the center of the N-air. It's hard to tell exactly where he'll end up, since the 4 hitboxes are so close, and any given one of them could have more influence in the final hitbox frame depending on his DI and you're movement. Try to visualize the hitboxes on the screen while the N-air animation plays out, and while considering his DI to the left, move in directions so as to try position him on the right-most side of one of the 4 hitboxes (the upper-most hitbox, as the biggest and one taking up most of the middle, is good for inward DI-ing opponents). Position him so that he's on the upper-right side of the upper-most hitbox, and he'll fly of upwards and to the right. You can try make him fly off more to the right than upwards by positioning him further down and to the right on the same hitbox, but then you risk him being influenced by the upper-left side of the right-most hitbox.

Idk. It's sort of hard to predict/explain because of all the factors that play into it. I don't really have it down yet either, nor do I know if I have a firm or correct understanding of it. But from what I think is correct, it's just one of those things where you have to get used to the placement of the hitboxes until it feels more natural, in the same way that we all had to get used to moving Dins based on the their current direction and the speed-up as time goes on; there's no need to think about their placement too hard every time the N-air's last hitbox is coming up. Thinking about things too hard sometimes leads to you missing things you would have noticed had you had a more relaxed mindset. I'd just practice staying aware of it everytime I go for a N-air, experiment until I have a 'feel' for what influences where they'll end up, practice staying aware of those influences, experiment, and repeat, until a general understanding of how the hitboxes interact develops naturally.

Sorry again for taking something that cud prob be explained simply and turning it into an unnecessarily long passage with repetitive/confusing wording! aha
(I have trouble explaining myself in simple terms, so I end up writing a lot to compensate... -___-)

 

[Sartron]

snip

Not necessarily relevant to the current discussion, but I've broken your nair image on the quoted post since I delete all my old images off of Imgur. I've collapsed the new image if you want to use it. It now features the landing animation as well.

Spoiler

 

[flying_tortoise]

Could you explain this with an example in terms of direction? Like say I wanted to send someone to the right

Also, Nair into Nayru's is kind of a nice thing to do sometimes. Hard to DI away from.

If I may try to simplify it.
All the hitboxes on Nair point towards zelda and at the last of the move all the hitboxes will hit outwards. {Pretty sure that is what everyone knows now}
So If you nair an opponent on your right, the nair will push him towards zelda and actually cause him to end up on the leftside of her, then if the last hit goes off the opponent is flying left (because that is what side he was on at the very last part of nair).

However if same situation, but you nair and have zelda move horizontally left, the inward hitboxes will not be enough to push the opponent to the leftside of zelda, and so when the last hitboxes come out the opponent will be sent right (because the opponent was on the rightside of zelda).

This is without thinking about DI as I haven't gone too far in experimenting but it looks extremely promising as I have sent cpus to din explosion on purpose with the nair.

 

[ECHOnce]

Not necessarily relevant to the current discussion, but I've broken your nair image on the quoted post since I delete all my old images off of Imgur. I've collapsed the new image if you want to use it. It now features the landing animation as well.

Spoiler

Thanks, although...the .gif still seems to work in my post, as do the LK .gifs in ShadowGanon's post a little above of mine... .___.

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

So what version of Project M was Zelda the best in?

 

[gijn]

yo Zelda's taunts are broken in PM. you can upsmash upsmash to uptaunt to naryu's love on basically everyone. also can use side taunt for extra dins fire and knock back is beast :/. good for lazy edgeguarding. the hitboxes linger like crazy. BTW all taunt combos should be called gijn's fire just saying . I should have some vids this weekend from a tourney that'll demo the potential. i'll try and get a match vs prof pro maybe friendly or see if i can meet him in bracket

 

[Kitanamonk]

yo Zelda's taunts are broken in PM. you can upsmash upsmash to uptaunt to naryu's love on basically everyone. also can use side taunt for extra dins fire and knock back is beast :/. good for lazy edgeguarding. the hitboxes linger like crazy. BTW all taunt combos should be called gijn's fire just saying . I should have some vids this weekend from a tourney that'll demo the potential. i'll try and get a match vs prof pro maybe friendly or see if i can meet him in bracket

upsmash, upsmash, uptaunt is definitly not a combo against anyone. It is easily DI-able, so unless they put down the controller you won't hit it. Furthermore, Zhime used the sidetaunt as a combo tool ages ago, as an edge guarding combined with din's, so I'm not sure you can claim the name.

However. this discussion is for Zelda's NAIR, not taunts, so if you want, suggest to op that taunts should be up for discussion and wait to see if they come up. Until then, stay on topic.

Anyway, A good rule of thumb with Nair is to watch what side they are on an expect that they will exit on that side, its not %100 reliable but is a decent guide as to what to expect.

 

[WhiteCrow]

When choosing to nair through a platform where an opponent is standing (and most likely shielding) it's important to be aware of their shield grab hit box and the direction they are facing. I usually try crossing up their shield, ending the nair behind them in the air to space a bair or using the landing hit box and a pivot grab to set up an edge guard. Nair is also a solid move if you're not 100% certain you can get a tech chase fair or bair on a platform. Nairing through the platform instead to tech chase is a good option, and it can still lead to set ups off stage. If you absolutely need a hitbox when coming down on an opponent juggling you, nair can be a safer option than dair since the hitbox lasts longer and comes out quicker. Nair is such a versatile tool, even OoS.

 

[ECHOnce]

(Bit off-topic sorry, but it's for the Idea Board)

How come we only have transformation as a means for detonating dins on the idea board?

Amongst us Sheik/Zelda mains, could we not discuss Shielda strats as well? Zhime has shown that it works nicely as an occasional mixup, and it gives us access to both character's many utilities. Which scenarios are better for Zelda? For Sheik? Which scenarios are they both capable up handling well, based on MUs, and how will those individual or shared advantages influence when I should consider swapping? Depending on height/proximity of opponent, should I jump to change my direction before or after transforming? What about the positioning/timing for different methods and uses of transforming? (e.g. Detonating Dins, Aerial attacks out of Transform, Transformation Invincibility...).

I recently found that, in addition to being a safe recovery against mediocre edge-guarders, the invincibility from transforming can be used to throw off jugglers (the more anti-juggle tactics for Zeldas, the better, right?); they'll obviously be waiting wherever/whenever you finish transforming, but immediate aerial attacks can catch them off-guard the first time. Air dodges/wavelands/Nayrus Love are also an option for escaping any waiting attacks, as are wavebounced transformations (or was it b-reversed? Idk the difference...I've seen Zhime do it at least once somewhere before lol...). Even if u do get hit, the change from a floaty Zelda to a heavier Sheik and vice versa may lead to a misplaced juggle with they misjudge your placement, opening up a chance to land before they properly adjust. Obviously you wouldn't be throwing out transforms every time you get juggled, but it could be a good trick to throw out in case they know to expect teleports/din-laying/love jumps/diamond dives/etc.

I realize that many people firmly believe that Shieldas are unnecessary - that you should pick one at the start of the match and stick with it, unless you do terribly - but I (and others I'm sure) do feel the mixup puts the opponent at a slight disadvantage (so long as the player can comfortably adjust between the characters aha), and would be interested in discussing it.

 

[M@v]

Honestly, you should only switch between the two if you are comfortable with both, as in "I feel I could win or at least hold my own with sheik only". If your sheik pales compared to your Zelda, you will only cause yourself more pain. If your sheik is good enough though, mixing it up gives you more options, AND forces your opponent to adapt constantly. I've started off losing matches as Zelda, then started randomly transforming and keeping the pressure on with both sheik and zelda. Its worked beautifully every time I've done it. Both have kill power and combo potential, so the "Be one for damage, be the other to kill" argument is basically invalid. You should base your decision to switch based on your evaluation of the situation, and if switching would indeed help.

As an example of "feeling comfortable with both", Zelda is my PM main, but sheik is my melee main. The vast majority of Sheik's game besides grab game changes carry over.

On topic, Nair usages:
-Great for pressuring /attacking opponents on platforms (easily its best/most reliable use)
-OoS option
-Mid-combo move/combo finisher at lower percents when damage is more important than knockback
-Can be used in similar situations as Nayru's as a mixup, but generally not as safe.

In situations where you could time it to punish a roll or a recovery, you are just better off using fair or bair instead.

 

[TimeSmash]

If I may try to simplify it.
All the hitboxes on Nair point towards zelda and at the last of the move all the hitboxes will hit outwards. {Pretty sure that is what everyone knows now}
So If you nair an opponent on your right, the nair will push him towards zelda and actually cause him to end up on the leftside of her, then if the last hit goes off the opponent is flying left (because that is what side he was on at the very last part of nair).

However if same situation, but you nair and have zelda move horizontally left, the inward hitboxes will not be enough to push the opponent to the leftside of zelda, and so when the last hitboxes come out the opponent will be sent right (because the opponent was on the rightside of zelda).

So if Zelda DIs/moves to the left WHILE she is using Nair, that will happen then. Thanks for this. I think I'll quote both you and JaiCho for the short and indepth versions!! ^_^

For example, you're approaching from the left (facing right) and our opponent is inexperienced with DI. If he starts approaching you by holding the control stick to the left, (disregarding any combos/punishes that follow when you catch him in the N-air, his hold on the control stick to the left will translate into DI to the left. This'll help him stay towards the center of the N-air. It's hard to tell exactly where he'll end up, since the 4 hitboxes are so close, and any given one of them could have more influence in the final hitbox frame depending on his DI and you're movement. Try to visualize the hitboxes on the screen while the N-air animation plays out, and while considering his DI to the left, move in directions so as to try position him on the right-most side of one of the 4 hitboxes (the upper-most hitbox, as the biggest and one taking up most of the middle, is good for inward DI-ing opponents). Position him so that he's on the upper-right side of the upper-most hitbox, and he'll fly of upwards and to the right. You can try make him fly off more to the right than upwards by positioning him further down and to the right on the same hitbox, but then you risk him being influenced by the upper-left side of the right-most hitbox.

Idk. It's sort of hard to predict/explain because of all the factors that play into it. I don't really have it down yet either, nor do I know if I have a firm or correct understanding of it. But from what I think is correct, it's just one of those things where you have to get used to the placement of the hitboxes until it feels more natural, in the same way that we all had to get used to moving Dins based on the their current direction and the speed-up as time goes on; there's no need to think about their placement too hard every time the N-air's last hitbox is coming up. Thinking about things too hard sometimes leads to you missing things you would have noticed had you had a more relaxed mindset. I'd just practice staying aware of it everytime I go for a N-air, experiment until I have a 'feel' for what influences where they'll end up, practice staying aware of those influences, experiment, and repeat, until a general understanding of how the hitboxes interact develops naturally.

Sorry again for taking something that cud prob be explained simply and turning it into an unnecessarily long passage with repetitive/confusing wording! aha
(I have trouble explaining myself in simple terms, so I end up writing a lot to compensate... -___-)

This is long but a VERY good explanation, and I won't lie that I have only skimmed it thus far, but thank you for laying that out for me. And don't worry about being confusing or whatever haha, you explained it well and I just want everyone to contribute

​

upsmash, upsmash, uptaunt is definitly not a combo against anyone. It is easily DI-able, so unless they put down the controller you won't hit it. Furthermore, Zhime used the sidetaunt as a combo tool ages ago, as an edge guarding combined with din's, so I'm not sure you can claim the name.

However. this discussion is for Zelda's NAIR, not taunts, so if you want, suggest to op that taunts should be up for discussion and wait to see if they come up. Until then, stay on topic.

Anyway, A good rule of thumb with Nair is to watch what side they are on an expect that they will exit on that side, its not %100 reliable but is a decent guide as to what to expect.

Thank you for this.

Edit: @ ECHOnce THANK YOU for suggesting something for the idea board. I'll be updating the OP soon!

 

[TimeSmash]

Hate to double post but as an update let's start talking about Up Air for a while!

Discuss anything about the move that you think is beneficial or unique

 

[ECHOnce]

We should get discussion going on back here again; Smash 4 talk is good, but the PM board shouldn't come to a halt for it aha.

Up-air...the sparkle hitboxes come out first, and the explosion that follows is a pretty decent kill move (albeit predictable and easily avoidable if not used suddenly for the first time as a kill move, or right out of a combo to kill). The sparkles presumably come first so as to hit opponents up into the area that will be covered by the killing explosion hitboxes. However, cancelling it by landing before the explosion comes out turns the sparkles into quite the nice SHFFL juggling/comboing tool at low %s.

 

[Kaeldiar]

We should get discussion going on back here again; Smash 4 talk is good, but the PM board shouldn't come to a halt for it aha.

Up-air...the sparkle hitboxes come out first, and the explosion that follows is a pretty decent kill move (albeit predictable and easily avoidable if not used suddenly for the first time as a kill move, or right out of a combo to kill). The sparkles presumably come first so as to hit opponents up into the area that will be covered by the killing explosion hitboxes. However, cancelling it by landing before the explosion comes out turns the sparkles into quite the nice SHFFL juggling/comboing tool at low %s.

Actually it's better than SHFFLing because it auto cancels before the explosion. In other news, I don't really use the move all too much, so I don't have a lot to say here. I will sometimes SH u-air when someone tries to approach me from above *cough*Falco*cough* because it has a LOT of disjoint. It's slow, though, so it's pretty situational

 

[TimeSmash]

I believed if timed right, because UAir is disjointed, it can beat out things like Link's Down Air, right?

 

[WhiteCrow]

I believed if timed right, because UAir is disjointed, it can beat out things like Link's Down Air, right?

Correctamoondo, you just have to make sure you space it just right and factor in their fall speed (whether it was a fast falling dair or otherwise). Besides, at high enough percent you might be looking for the explosive hitbox to trade and KO someone above you.

My two rupees on up-air. While this move doesn't have as much utility as nair or as much reliable kill power as f/dair it has the ability to combo into itself and KO off the top, something Zelda has a hard time doing without up tilts and poorly DI'd back throws. On light characters like Jiggly Puff, Meta Knight, Peach, and Kirby, this move can end stocks like no other move in Zelda's arsenal. Shield dropping through platforms and putting the hit box where Zelda was can really surprise people. Against fast fallers (especially Captain Falcon) I've been able to string up-airs into themselves when I miss read their DI and don't want to nair.

That's really when I find myself using up-air the most; when I'm the perfect position for it's sweet spot and I don't want to end the combo with a nair. When Fox's take me to low ceiling stages it can be a clutch kill off of up-throws that they don't DI. At low percents it can set a lot of characters up for kicks too. It's not Zelda's best move but it's one to never forget you have access to. Also, ledge jump up-air to punish recoveries no other aerial can hit is so satisfying.

 

[Kitanamonk]

I'll try and go through the up-air as systematically possible

Firstly what is the move? Up air has two attacks, the first attack is weak, sparkly and probably an attempt to allow an opponent to SDI out of the second attack (not tested, can someone verify?), this second stage is an explosion with plenty of good properties.


Properties:
Hurtbox - A hurtbox is a hitbox that can damage your opponent but cannot be damaged by your opponent. This allows it to extend upwards safely to challenge moves like Link/G&W/Ganon/and many more DAIR.
Size - This move has a big explosion, so you don't need to be ultra precise with it, and is the other reason it can deal with DAIR's.
Sweet vs Sour - The second attack has two hitboxes, the first deals 14 dmg, the second does 17 dmg and hits for more knockback

Uses:
Platforms
Coverage
Combos

Platforms
Zelda is not a vertical character for good reason, her lightness and slow fall speed means she dies off the top very easily, usually she needs to put herself in a horizontal position to deal with platformed players. Using SFFL up-air however, allows for platform chasing while staying safe from getup attacks or other grounded moves. Particularly the higher platforms on stages like Battlefield, this move is a great asset. The downside is the long ending lag for this move, meaning a miss will allow an opponent to reset the situation very easily, nevertheless it is a solid platform option as a failed LK could lead to a punish, a failed up-air is quite safe.

Coverage
This point is a small yet important one. We all like going for lightning kicks when someone is airborne, but too often we get spotted and they jump over you. "HAHA I have you now" you can say as you simply jump into upair and hit them anyway. This allows for some opponent conditioning, and leading into some followup that I will disscuss now

Combos
Up-air is primarily good for comboing into itself, and really shines against anyone around Ike's fallspeed/weight combination all the way up to wolf. Importantly spacies will not be comboed at 0% with up-air, but if they are in the air you can use up-smash to tack on % till they get up-air comboed. Against the lighter characters it it still very important, and while it doesn't true combo, it can be used to get them as they try to come down.

The second move it combo's into is LK, the DI of the opponent can mean they escape the up-air chain and fall right into a FAIR or BAIR. This can turn an up-air string into death

To get a up-air combo going it depends on what character you are fighting. Throws are a good start, and up throw to up-air against heavy characters is great. the other option is force them on a platform and follow their tech with up-air. Good choices to get them on the platform would be Dthrow or up throw, F-tilt can also work, even up-tilt at low enough percent, anyway, whatever you use to get them on the platform, an up-air can be a great follow up.

That's pretty much it for up-air. A really strong move for killing, and comboing. Anything I missed?

Teach fox how to kill off the top in style.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I have to mention this every time Zelda's Uair comes into discussion.
The Sparkle: arguably the most underrated move in her arsenal. It can start 0-death combos against heavyweights and spacies and is a usable DI mixup when Up Smash chaining characters.

 

[Miryafa]

JaiCho, I checked your post with the gif, but it seems to me that the gif is a broken link now, and the same is true of ShadowGanon's gifs.

I didn't post anything about Nair until now b/c I thought it was pretty useless, but I just had success in practice (meaning against CPUs, would appreciate if someone could verify against people) hitting someone under the stage with Nair's last hit, making it a low% gimp (along with Naryu's Love, but you can keep moving right with Nair).

On the topic of Uair, I love this move. Zelda's floatiness means that after I send an opponent high up, but fail to kill them, I can jump towards them and follow them down until they get within range of Uair. They fall faster, so they almost always get within range after a delayed second jump on my part. Then I can keep it up until they're dead.

 

[TimeSmash]

I have to mention this every time Zelda's Uair comes into discussion.
The Sparkle: arguably the most underrated move in her arsenal. It can start 0-death combos against heavyweights and spacies and is a usable DI mixup when Up Smash chaining characters.

Can you emphasize on how to do this? I haven't practiced it at all. You just short hop and fast fall the sparkle right?

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Can you emphasize on how to do this? I haven't practiced it at all. You just short hop and fast fall the sparkle right?

Yeah, you FF it so that just the sparkle hitbox comes out. It gives you 0-deaths on certain characters... There is a reason why the sparkle auto-cancels.

 

[Kitanamonk]

Yeah, you FF it so that just the sparkle hitbox comes out. It gives you 0-deaths on certain characters... There is a reason why the sparkle auto-cancels.

I just tried the sparkle on several different characters of varying weights and fall speeds. To me it looks like the hit stun is too small to combo with against lighter characters but the knock back is too small against fast fallers. Which characters did you do 0-death with?

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I just tried the sparkle on several different characters of varying weights and fall speeds. To me it looks like the hit stun is too small to combo with against lighter characters but the knock back is too small against fast fallers. Which characters did you do 0-death with?

Falco, Bowser, Ganondorf (to an extent and only on certain stages).

Wolf and Fox at higher percents can be comboed well, as with Falcon.

 

[Kitanamonk]

Falco, Bowser, Ganondorf (to an extent and only on certain stages).

Wolf and Fox at higher percents can be comboed well, as with Falcon.

I miss-read your first post and so yes it can lead to a 0-death combo, and its a better auto cancel combo option than auto-cancel nair.

Even so the fact that it requires you to be at the end of a jump makes it really slow and situational, it suffers from the same problem as a DAIR but without the dmg/kill/combo payoff. You mentioned it is a DI mix-up during up-smash chains, but it sends the enemy vertically just like up-smash, how does that mix up their DI?

 

[TimeSmash]

Thanks DSS for the explanation. Someone should give me a nice little definition of autocancelling I can put in the OP because I can't think of how to word it myself haha

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Thanks DSS for the explanation. Someone should give me a nice little definition of autocancelling I can put in the OP because I can't think of how to word it myself haha

Auto-cancel: Automatic L-cancel, eliminates the ending lag of the move without need for L-canceling when present.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I miss-read your first post and so yes it can lead to a 0-death combo, and its a better auto cancel combo option than auto-cancel nair.

Even so the fact that it requires you to be at the end of a jump makes it really slow and situational, it suffers from the same problem as a DAIR but without the dmg/kill/combo payoff. You mentioned it is a DI mix-up during up-smash chains, but it sends the enemy vertically just like up-smash, how does that mix up their DI?

Because with the upsmash they have to SDI multiple times to gain the horizontal distance required to break the combo, however if they SDI the Sparkle it will enable Zelda to charge a F-smash and get an easy kill. It also makes it harder for them to escape the next Up-smash because they will be caught in the lower-middle of the move instead the upper-center.

 

[Kitanamonk]

Because with the upsmash they have to SDI multiple times to gain the horizontal distance required to break the combo, however if they SDI the Sparkle it will enable Zelda to charge a F-smash and get an easy kill. It also makes it harder for them to escape the next Up-smash because they will be caught in the lower-middle of the move instead the upper-center.

Also Nair doesn't auto-cancel.

Thanks for the info, not seen opponents properly SDI my up-smashes and SDI is a new-ish concept for me.

I actually meant auto-cancelled Nayru's not Nair

 

[WhiteCrow]

Also Nair doesn't auto-cancel.

Not to be nit picky but the frame data says otherwise.

Landing Lag
• Normal: 17 frames
• L-Canceled: 8 frames
• Auto-canceled: 4 frames

Auto-cancel Window
• AttackAirN: <6 38>

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Thanks for the info, not seen opponents properly SDI my up-smashes and SDI is a new-ish concept for me.

I actually meant auto-cancelled Nayru's not Nair

No problem, I've dealt with people who SDI out of Up-smash and let me tell you, it's disappointing.

Not to be nit picky but the frame data says otherwise.

Landing Lag
• Normal: 17 frames
• L-Canceled: 8 frames
• Auto-canceled: 4 frames

Auto-cancel Window
• AttackAirN: <6 38>

Oh, I stand corrected! The Auto-cancel Window part of it is hard to decipher. What frames of Nair auto-cancel?

 

[WhiteCrow]

Auto-cancel happens before frame 6 and after 38.

 

[TimeSmash]

WOW so I haven't updated this in a while, but let's start talking about the only aerial we haven't discussed, Down Air!!

Is it a meteor when non-sweetspotted, and a spike when it is??

 

[Kaeldiar]

WOW so I haven't updated this in a while, but let's start talking about the only aerial we haven't discussed, Down Air!!

Is it a meteor when non-sweetspotted, and a spike when it is??

It's a really weak meteor when non-sweetspotted and a much stronger meteor when sweetspotted. It's tough to land, but VERY good when you can. If it doesn't get you an outright kill, you get very easy follow-ups due to the high hitstun. That being said, I don't know how to reliably land one against anyone worth their salt

 

[Prynne]

I feel guilty for not posting here ever, though I'm not particularly qualified...

Whatever.

Dair is probably my least used move. The only person I've ever seen use it to any real effect has been @otheusrex. And it has killed me many times. It comes out slow and has pretty bad ending lag, at least on stage. Off stage is a different story, but I feel like there are other, sometimes safer edgeguarding options. It's pretty stylish, I'll give it that much, and it really sends the "I'm not screwing around" vibe that I do so love to cultivate in Zelda, but otherwise, aside from the inherent damage and hitstun it will do if it doesn't kill, it's lackluster in comparison to her other moves. If the opponent's up B is not wildly threatening, then I would say go for the spike. You're not going to have trouble getting back to the stage if you land it in any event. I, personally, avoid using it like a Ganon stomp until I see it used in such a way that it can be advantageous, but in comparison to Zelda's other options, (...kick), I'm going to keep it's usage limited. This isn't to say that it cannot be used on stage as a combo option. The simple truth of the matter is that I do not know. Anyone have any combo strings with Dair? I certainly do not, but I'd love to hear some.

 

[Kitanamonk]

Anyone have any combo strings with Dair? I certainly do not, but I'd love to hear some.

Dair to upsmash hits most characters at 0%, you can follow low% Dairs with an easy LK or grab, or any tilt you please. But due to its insane awkwardness to hit it rarely makes an appearance as combo move. Ususally looking for a Dair gets me killed than a combo. It has similar hitstun to a Falcon stomp, but because Z is so slow she cannot follow up unless they are at low percents, not to mention the knockback ramps up very steeply.

As a gimp option it is surprisingly useful sometimes. Some characters like mario try to interrupt a Spike/Meteor move by Up-B'ing early, if they try that with Zelda they can frequently be caught out by the quick hitbox. Still not very consistent. It is reletivaly safe as her recovery is good, and at high percents the large, weak hitbox is still strong enough to get a gimp.

It can be a kill move, as the knock back is massive, but only as a risky mix up from the usual LKs. Probably Zelda's worst move, and its not even useless. Damn this character is good.

 

[WhiteCrow]

While dair can be really hard to use I don't think it's Zelda's worst move. Down b is much worse Dair is by far her most situational move though. Here are the ways I use dair:

1) Edge Guarding: Kitanamonk and Prynne already mentioned how dair can be unsafe against recoveries that hit through it. As a raw edge guarding tool I almost always opt for an on stage option for this reason. The move is much more effective while you retain ledge invincibility, most likely from Farore's teleport to ledge, especially when edge guarding against space animals who have to recover from below the stage without a jump. Everything changes when you have a Din's Fire in place. Dair is a perfect hit confirm off of well placed traps since it can keep your opponent in hit stun long enough to secure the meteor. If you can't guarantee the meteor I'd almost always recommend going for another option.

2) Comboing: If you notice that your opponent doesn't DI your up smashes very well you can get some sick resets with this meteor. Nothing is more satisfying than up smash>dair meteor>tech chase kick or miss tech kick/nair reset. I recommend actually practicing this timing against different characters at different percents since it can be really hard to time and space the sweet spot. At mid percents dair actually combos really well into kicks, but it can still be hard to land the dair in the first place. It's most effective as a cross up on shields or as...

3) Hard Punishes: When I can't space a better punish option I go for dair. EX: You forced Roy/Marth to recover to the stage while you're at the ledge but they're too close to space a f/bair and you don't want to reset the situation with a nair. EX: You know your opponent's rolling habits on a platform and you're not fast enough to f/bair them while rising through. Dair isn't the most efficient option but it can be the most rewarding.

Don't forget that dair has crazy shield damage when looking for opportunities to use it.

 

[Kitanamonk]

While dair can be really hard to use I don't think it's Zelda's worst move. Down b is much worse Dair is by far her most situational move though. Here are the ways I use dair:

Don't forget that dair has crazy shield damage when looking for opportunities to use it.

I don't know man, Down-B can lead to crazy combo's

I forgot the shield damage, the move can even be safe if you sweet spot on a shield as the knock back pushes some characters too far for them to shield grab you (Mario comes to mind, also sonic, ganon, ness, and any others with that small grab range

 

[DarkStarStorm]

It's a really weak meteor when non-sweetspotted and a much stronger meteor when sweetspotted. It's tough to land, but VERY good when you can. If it doesn't get you an outright kill, you get very easy follow-ups due to the high hitstun. That being said, I don't know how to reliably land one against anyone worth their salt

Up-throw - dair (leads into Zelda's pillar on some characters)
Up-smash - dair (also leads into pillar)

Use the hitstun of an edgeguarding dins to get a dair in: kills.


Zelda has Ganondorf stomp combos, you just need dins to set them up.

 

[Dervo]

I definitely see D-air as a useful but mostly situational move. Unless you manage to set up a dins in their recovery path followed by a dair stomp it cant really be used as an edgeguard staple. Maybe the up-throw dair combo can be a decent switchup, havent tried it much myself though. Most of my success with it is a surprise counterspike after love jumping or jumping an edgeguard attempt of some characters. Dair spikes are more of an opportunity that presents itself sometimes rather than something I actively go for. Plus if you manage to get a spikr once in a match theyll be a lot more careful about trying that eg again.

Id also mention it gets a KO every now and again at the odd times when you end up right above them at a high percent and stage bounce them for a kill. Definitely useful, but not quite as frequently as LKs or nair.