PizzaWenisaur
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2014
- Messages
- 140
People really care that much about Lucina being in the game...
Even after hearing the circumstances?
Even after hearing the circumstances?
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The guys who're clones because they're the same guy? Every other clone has a reason to be one. Luigi started out as a 2-P Mario, Dr Mario is an alternate universe Mario, The Links are the same guy, Falco would've been trained like Fox was, Pichu is a baby Pikachu, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon have similar physiques, Marth and Roy have similar physiques and use weapons of a similar size, Marth used Lucina's animations in Awakening so she uses his here, and she called herself Marth for a portion of Awakening.
You also half described what makes Toon Link's meta game different.
Toon link and Link are the same character though, he would obviously use the same tools that they both use. IKE AND CHROM DO NOT. Ike uses a massive sword. Chrom uses a toothpick. Chrom COULD be a clone of Marth because they use the SAME blade and are also the same size/height.
You also half described what makes Toon Link's meta game different.
Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore it. To be honest, it seems obvious to me that Sakurai would choose characters this way. The problem lies with what may be obvious to you or me may not be obvious to anyone else. If Sakurai and his team are unable to think of an appealing concept for a character, then they'll give priority to someone else.I can't believe this was ignored despite receiving likes for pointing it out.
Even tough it's subjective, do you realise that it could affect most of characters? Because it shows how Sakurai chooses his priority.
I know that that's why it's subjective.Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore it. To be honest, it seems obvious to me that Sakurai would choose characters this way. The problem lies with what may be obvious to you or me may not be obvious to anyone else. If Sakurai and his team are unable to think of an appealing concept for a character, then they'll give priority to someone else.
Google "tough love".That's all fine and good, but the evidence suggests otherwise. In fact, on this same page...
...you blatantly insult Sakurai and is "reasoning". Yet you claim you're not trying to turn people against him and that he is one of your idols. Contradiction much?
...That point has literally nothing to do with the Marth/Lucina comparison. And I never undermined you, not even in retaliation to you undermining me. Quit trying to twist my words.HEY! How come you have a blue background on yours? No fair!! Well, two can play this game!
As you can see, I also have more likes to messages and a lot of trophy points. So it's fair to conclude that I also contribute something to Smashboards, just like Lucina contributes to Smash Bros. It might not be as big a contribution as yours/Marth's, but it's still a contribution. Who has the right to say that my/Lucina's existence is without merit?
Really? People are still trying to argue that Link and Toon Link are the same guy, even after this post?The guys who're clones because they're the same guy? Every other clone has a reason to be one. Luigi started out as a 2-P Mario, Dr Mario is an alternate universe Mario, The Links are the same guy, Falco would've been trained like Fox was, Pichu is a baby Pikachu, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon have similar physiques, Marth and Roy have similar physiques and use weapons of a similar size, Marth used Lucina's animations in Awakening so she uses his here, and she called herself Marth for a portion of Awakening.
Chrom has nothing to do with Ike. Their characters have nothing to do with each other, they aren't the same person at a different age or in an alternate universe, they weren't trained the same, they don't have similar physiques and don't use weapons of a similar size. What possible reason would justify making Chrom and Ike clone except "because"?
In fact, if there had to be a smaller, faster Ike clone, Lucina would make more sense than Chrom. At least she and Ike both hold their swords near to their faces.
Actually the Hero of Winds (aka Toon Link) Isn't related to the Spirit of the Hero at all. After Zelda send the Hero of Time back to his time that actually removed Hylia's Spirit of the Hero from existence at the Adult timeline, hence there was no hero to save the land and Hyrule got flooded, causing the events of Wind Waker. Being in need of a new hero. Thus Wind Waker Link had to go through all these trials like Skyward Sword Link had to.
In other words. Toon Link is about as related to Twilight Princess Link as Lucas is to Ness or Ike is to Marth etc.
Ganondorf is nearly two feet taller than Captain Falcon in canon, that is not what you call a "similar physique".Ganondorf and Captain Falcon have similar physiques
In fact, if there had to be a smaller, faster Ike clone, Lucina would make more sense than Chrom. At least she and Ike both hold their swords near to their faces.
The Hero of Winds is Link. They are the same guy.Really? People are still trying to argue that Link and Toon Link are the same guy, even after this post?
Makes him a different size. Doesn't mean they don't have different physiques. Isn't Ganondorf only in SSBM because Sakurai could map Captain Falcon's moves onto him easily. Thus, similar physiques,Ganondorf is nearly two feet taller than Captain Falcon in canon, that is not what you call a "similar physique".
Yes. The way Lucina holds her sword when in a battle stance in Awakening and the way Ike does as a Ranger in Path of Radiance, which seems to be on what he's based on in Smash, as he isn't holding it like he does as a Lord, Hero or Vanguard, are valid ways of holding the Ochs guard in German Fencing. Chrom doesn't hold his sword in anything that resembles the Ochs guard, ever.Did you seriously just mention a situational POSITION as to say Lucina could fit a role better than Chrom?
You are hopeless. You don't even make any rebuttals, you just repeat what you said as if the facts I presented mean nothing.The Hero of Winds is Link. They are the same guy.
Makes him a different size. Doesn't mean they don't have different physiques. Isn't Ganondorf only in SSBM because Sakurai could map Captain Falcon's moves onto him easily. Thus, similar physiques,
Yes. The way Lucina holds her sword when in a battle stance in Awakening and the way Ike does as a Ranger in Path of Radiance, which seems to be on what he's based on in Smash, as he isn't holding it like he does as a Lord, Hero or Vanguard, are valid ways of holding the Ochs guard in German Fencing. Chrom doesn't hold his sword in anything that resembles the Ochs guard, ever.
Not style, but the stance. Ike holds his sword above his head, and Lucina holds hers next to her face. Both are valid ways of holding the Ochs guard. Or would be if Ike actually held his sword in two hands.Wait, we're still arguing this?
How on earth are Lucina and Ike's styles even remotely similar? Ragnell is a freaking claymore. It and Falchion would be wielded differently no matter what. Is it even possible to properly fence with a claymore?
Let's lay out the facts again.
In game, Lucuna fights like Chrom, but inpersonates Marth
In game, we have nothing to compare chrom's style to but itself.
In game, marth and lucina use the same character model and thus use the same moves.
In game, Ike fights nothing like any of them.
In Smash, Ike fights nothing like how any of them would. The only exception is that Chrom and Lucina can both know Aether in awakening.
So, looking at this, where is this confusing argument coming from?
So... thus he's not using the style or stance and thus I continue to be confused.Not style, but the stance. Ike holds his sword above his head, and Lucina holds hers next to her face. Both are valid ways of holding the Ochs guard. Or would be if Ike actually held his sword in two hands.
sonicbrawler182So, looking at this, where is this confusing argument coming from?
Not to be rude, but you've been pretty much doing exactly that this entire thread with how Lucina is a terrible choice no matter what. Arguing people to the ground and believing what you choose to believe. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and call you a troll. You have no right calling Sakurai and Lucina fans hypocrites when you're showing yourself to be the biggest one right now. No, this isn't a discussing, its just pointless arguing.You are hopeless. You don't even make any rebuttals, you just repeat what you said as if the facts I presented mean nothing.
If that's how this thread is gonna go down from now on, I'm out.
Not to be rude, but you've been pretty much doing exactly that this entire thread with how Lucina is a terrible choice no matter what. Arguing people to the ground and believing what you choose to believe. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt
****, misread. Gah, I'm tired.
I didn't say Lucina is bad. I was saying how he was saying she was bad.And that would be your opinion. I think she's a wonderful choice. Now we can agree to disagree, you can ignore her while I use her, and we go out and get a beer together and discuss the Mariners/Angels game from last night. Sound good?
Yeah, I misread. I've been burning myself out at work this month. My bad.I didn't say Lucina is bad. I was saying how he was saying she was bad.
Please quote me on where I said Lucina was a terrible choice. I merely think she was implemented poorly, even as far as clones go. It's not the act of choosing Lucina as a Smash rep, or even the concept of her being a clone - it's HOW she's executed as a clone. That's what I wasn't satisfied with, and Sakurai's reasoning for this doesn't make the problem go away, therefore, I can criticise it.Not to be rude, but you've been pretty much doing exactly that this entire thread with how Lucina is a terrible choice no matter what. Arguing people to the ground and believing what you choose to believe. I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and call you a troll.
The only reason I'm still here is because people keep quoting me, I get an alert, and people like you make dirty claims about me. Stop pointing fingers, like a child.sonicbrawler182
He's been keeping this pointless discussion going this whole thread, ignoring most valid reasoning and purposely reacting to the flawed ones. I would advise to just ignore him for now cause there's obviously no stppoing him.
Two context-less quotes by you don't stack up to the Hero of Wind's role in canon. He's a different character. Different timeline than the Hero of Twilight. He has different relationships and back story. Etc, etc.Do I need to make rebuttals? Hyrule Historia refers to the Hero of Winds as "This version of Link" on page 154, and says on page 126 that "The Legendary Blade can only by wielded by the Hero". Translations of 2002 Famitsu articles says that Ganondorf was a Falcon clone because he had a similar body type, which is corroborated by this http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/flash/1218/index.html. And my point about Ike and Lucina both using variants of the Ochs guard of German Fencing as their battle stance is something more than simply holding a sword near their face.
My mistake. I have chosen my words poorly. What I meant was how you're saying that her being the choice for a clone is terrible. Not so much that she was chosen. Some have given points on how they're fine with her being a clone and why it makes sense for her to be a clone, and yet you persist. Obviously everyone is not going to be pleased, but for someone who never played Awakening and doesn't care for Lucina, you sure are making a big fuss about it. As for Sakurai being contradictory, it has been stated numerous times that Robin has been the choice instead of Chrom, possibly as his potential for a creative moveset was more obvious and would take less work creating an all new moveset from scratch. As for why Lucina was chosen to be a clone instead of Chrom, Lucina has a ton of Japanese fans and has the most similarities to an existing member of the already confirmed cast of characters. It also makes sense, to have Chrom assist Robin in his Final Smash, as they are depicted as close friends in the game. What Chrom could have been is irrelevant at this point. Sure, Lucina could have had an original moveset, but they didn't plan for that. She is LITERALLY and alt costume with a slight difference. Not a big deal.Please quote me on where I said Lucina was a terrible choice. I merely think she was implemented poorly, even as far as clones go. It's not the act of choosing Lucina as a Smash rep, or even the concept of her being a clone - it's HOW she's executed as a clone. That's what I wasn't satisfied with, and Sakurai's reasoning for this doesn't make the problem go away, therefore, I can criticise it.
Quit calling me troll, I've been sincere.
Nonononono, that's still not what I'm saying.My mistake. I have chosen my words poorly. What I meant was how you're saying that her being the choice for a clone is terrible. Not so much that she was chosen. Some have given points on how they're fine with her being a clone and why it makes sense for her to be a clone, and yet you persist. Obviously everyone is not going to be pleased, but for someone who never played Awakening and doesn't care for Lucina, you sure are making a big fuss about it. As for Sakurai being contradictory, it has been stated numerous times that Robin has been the choice instead of Chrom, possibly as his potential for a creative moveset was more obvious and would take less work creating an all new moveset from scratch. As for why Lucina was chosen to be a clone instead of Chrom, Lucina has a ton of Japanese fans and has the most similarities to an existing member of the already confirmed cast of characters. It also makes sense, to have Chrom assist Robin in his Final Smash, as they are depicted as close friends in the game. What Chrom could have been is irrelevant at this point. Sure, Lucina could have had an original moveset, but they didn't plan for that. She is LITERALLY and alt costume with a slight difference. Not a big deal.
Too bad Ike is the most different out of all of those sword posts. To be critical he isn't even holding his blade to his face, he's holding it on a parallel plane with his chest. However since you are looking at him from a grounded angle it appears that his sword is closer then it really is. Whereas Chrom and Marth look IDENTICAL in holding their sword at a downward angle from their face.Google "tough love".
...That point has literally nothing to do with the Marth/Lucina comparison. And I never undermined you, not even in retaliation to you undermining me. Quit trying to twist my words.
Really? People are still trying to argue that Link and Toon Link are the same guy, even after this post?
Ganondorf is nearly two feet taller than Captain Falcon in canon, that is not what you call a "similar physique".
Did you seriously just mention a situational POSITION as to say Lucina could fit a role better than Chrom?
You're biased. End of.
I mean, I love my Rosie and all, but GEEZ...
BONUS:
Google Image searched Chrom, first result:
I never thought I'd see someone stoop so low. Not even going to humour this, and I may as well unwatch the thread now.Too bad Ike is the most different out of all of those sword posts. To be critical he isn't even holding his blade to his face, he's holding it on a parallel plane with his chest. However since you are looking at him from a grounded angle it appears that his sword is closer then it really is. Whereas Chrom and Marth look IDENTICAL in holding their sword at a downward angle from their face.
Might as well just have taken a bunch of pictures of people with swords in all types of positions and then just posted those.... oh wait you did. Your biased.
BONUS:
Is Ganondorf 2 feet taller then Capt Falcon in the game? Weren't you the one to say canon didn't matter? That's laughable.
and yes Toon Link is Link. Literally different incarnations of the same character. Therefore at a base level, the same. They are both Link.
There's nothing wrong with that. Its their job to pander. That's what the whole game is about. Its basically Nintendo Fanservice: The Game. She's new, relevant, and well liked. Why not throw them a bone?Nonononono, that's still not what I'm saying.
I have nothing against Lucina in her own game, but my first impression of her in Smash is the worst I've had with any character. A character revealed for Smash should make me curious about the character in their own game, and make me go in with an already established attachment, however minor. Lucina isn't doing that though. The way in which they are implementing her feels like pandering, solely for her niche fan base. I feel I am being forced this character for no good reason at all. I accepted Greninja, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer, Pac-Man, and Robin, because they turned out to be character s I never knew I wanted, in a way. I figured any other characters I didn't care for before Smash, would do the same. Lucina isn't doing that though.
Fine, sonicbrawler182. If sonicbrawler182 wants me to address sonicbrawler182 directly when I call sonicbrawler182 out for sonicbrawler182's bull****, I'll address sonicbrawler182 by name. Is that better, sonicbrawler182?If you're gonna talk **** about me, at least mention my name rather than trying to slip it under my nose, and don't do the whole "I HAD A DRAFT WRITTEN UP BUT THIS MORTAL IS BENEATH ME" shtick. At least I have the respect and human decency to address people directly when I call out their questionable points/points at disagree with.
Both are incarnations of the same individual, Hylia's Chosen Hero.Really, guys?
The two Links are separate incarnations.
In fact, the only time we actually had two of the same Link in the same game was in Melee. One was literally just a younger version of the other.
This place makes me feel bad...@GoldenYuiitusin , you shouldn't be punished, you should be praised!!
Oh, and @ ChikoLad , the only person undermining you... is you. You're ruining your own credibility by keeping up this pointless argument despite several other posters and MODS telling you that you're wrong... Maybe you should take a few days to think things over, mate.
Ah. Well I suppose we can agree to disagree.Both are incarnations of the same individual, Hylia's Chosen Hero.
Aside from that, Smash treats all Links as one and the same.
As is with every circular argument on the internet.i'm gonna probably get flamed for this but i don't care. all this arguing is going no where.
Check Toon Link's trophy; First sentence: "Link as he appeared in The Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass".Ah. Well I suppose we can agree to disagree.
I see the different incarnations as just ancestors of each other, and as such, different "Links". The only thing I see the same with either is that every incarnation of Link is The Hero.
In other words, I see "The Hero" as more of a title given to an ancestral line.
I see your point, though.
Also, I don't see how Smash treats all Links as one and the same, but that's probably because it's really late and I'm not thinking too hard about it.
I apologize if my post came off as brash. I didn't mean to assert my opinion.
I will just add a small curiosity here:Check Toon Link's trophy; First sentence: "Link as he appeared in The Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass".
This at the very least connects "regular" Link and Toon Link, but it doesn't end there.
None of the Stickers use the Toon Link label, even the ones that are of the WW/PH Link.
Link's trophy also gives context that he is a recurring character as opposed to a Legacy Character.
And while not Link, the same concept applies to Zelda (which is more jarring since it actually has been established that each "Zelda" is a descendant and there are two Zeldas in the original two games with the same Link in both), with her trophy actually claiming "her role changes between titles" and bringing up events of both OoT and TP despite Zelda being the TP Zelda. (Though having a Sheik transformation and using spells from OoT may have to do with it, but at the same time proves that Smash Zelda is an amalgam, now taken a step further with the Phantom).
I fail to understand why he is "wrong" just because posters and MODS are telling him that he is "wrong." It is his subjective opinion. If he feels as though Lucina is a less than ideal character despite the circumstances, that is a reasonable perspective. Perhaps she did not take nearly as long to develop as a more prominent character; however, that difference might be negligible as the notion is relative to the individual, a dependent variable. To an extent, I agree with him. However, I am biased towards Lucina, so I could never wholeheartedly agree.@GoldenYuiitusin , you shouldn't be punished, you should be praised!!
Oh, and @ ChikoLad , the only person undermining you... is you. You're ruining your own credibility by keeping up this pointless argument despite several other posters and MODS telling you that you're wrong... Maybe you should take a few days to think things over, mate.