Translated Sakurai Famitsu Interview

[Bladeviper]

the main argument for that is that when they gave ganondorf a spot in melee he only had like 2 or 3 attacks total from oot to choose from. Also suddenly taking a faster like character like chrom and slowing him down and making a heavy hitter outta him makes no sense and you would be giving him a move that no one single person in awakening has, not one.

 

[ChikoLad]

What do they have to do with anything? Chrom is a similar size to Marth, is descended from Marth and uses the same sword as Marth. Why would they make him a Ike clone over a Marth clone? Or is Lucina already a Marth clone in this hypothetical?

They have to do with the fact they have little to no similarities as characters, and no canon relation, yet still ended up as similar characters in Smash. I don't see why Chrom as an Ike alt/clone would be a stretch, because of that.

the main argument for that is that when they gave ganondorf a spot in melee he only had like 2 or 3 attacks total from oot to choose from. Also suddenly taking a faster like character like chrom and slowing him down and making a heavy hitter outta him makes no sense and you would be giving him a move that no one single person in awakening has, not one.

...Or they could make Chrom a faster Ike, rather than mimicking his slow speed?

Also, these guys have movesets comprised almost entirely of moves they NEVER use in their own game. I don't see why Chrom can't do that.

Plus, plenty of Smash characters have had Smash movesets made on the basis of what their character is, rather than relying on the limited techniques they get a chance to show in their own games (, for example).

 

[Bladeviper]

They have to do with the fact they have little to no similarities as characters, and no canon relation, yet still ended up as similar characters in Smash. I don't see why Chrom as an Ike alt/clone would be a stretch, because of that.



...Or they could make Chrom a faster Ike, rather than mimicking his slow speed?

Also, these guys have movesets comprised almost entirely of moves they NEVER use in their own game. I don't see why Chrom can't do that.

cause they just don't fight the same, look at the way they fight in there respective games and tell me it makes any sense to do that.

 

[DACSHeyes]

They have to do with the fact they have little to no similarities as characters, and no canon relation, yet still ended up as similar characters in Smash. I don't see why Chrom as an Ike alt/clone would be a stretch, because of that.

Great. You've still not answered why they'd jump over making Chrom a clone of Marth.

 

[Frostwraith]

I sometimes get the feeling some people have no clue about game development.

I should tell you that a model and animations can be separate entities in the game's data structure. You have data for models and you have data for animations. Hence, why moveset swap hacks are possible and you have hilarious things like "Longchu".

Lucina already had a model compatible with Marth's animations for her to be an alt costume. That isn't different from the Villager's 4 different models, same for the different genders of Wii Fit Trainer and Robin. Different models, same animations, same moves.

All the dev team had to do was assigning the Lucina model to a new character slot and edit Marth's already existing moves to give her less range and remove the tipper mechanic. That could have been done in less than a day.

It's like copying and pasting a text sample and then alter a few words from it. Did you have to write the whole text again? Obviously not. Likewise, when developing Lucina, the developers didn't have to go through the same extensive planning process that went in the other newcomers' development.

What is so hard to understand about this?

Also, the clones in Melee weren't planned to be in the game in the first place either. That's why they are clones.

 

[ChikoLad]

cause they just don't fight the same, look at the way they fight in there respective games and tell me it makes any sense to do that.

You're forgetting +, and + again.

Great. You've still not answered why they'd jump over making Chrom a clone of Marth.

Lucina is the more obvious choice for a Marth alt/clone and already is a Marth clone. We don't need a third.

 

[Bladeviper]

You're forgetting +, and + again.



Lucina is the more obvious choice for a Marth alt/clone and already is a Marth clone. We don't need a third.

ganondorf had no moves to pull from at the point they made him, i already pointed this out.

 

[ChikoLad]

ganondorf had no moves to pull from at the point they made him, i already pointed this out.

...And that helps my point more than your own, as I already pointed out.

Many characters in Smash didn't have defined moves to pull from. They are simply based on the essence of the character, or the game they come from.

This extends to some clones, like Ganondorf, who ended up with a variation of Captain Falcon's moveset, simply because it was easy to picture him doing similar moves to Captain Falcon (they have vaguely similar physiques, Captain Falcon's moveset has a high impact feeling which goes well with Ganondorf's powerful looking stature).

This could easily work out for Chrom as an alt/clone. My point is that if making Lucina a generic sword using alt/clone was OK, why was it not for Chrom?

 

[Frostwraith]

My point is that if making Lucina a generic sword using alt/clone was OK, why was it not for Chrom?

Because of development circumstances as Sakurai, me and many people here have stated so many times.

She already had assets done for her to be a Marth alt. In other words, they had a Lucina model compatible with Marth's animations. All the development team did was that instead of giving her the exact same moveset as Marth so she would be a Marth alt, they decided to give her a slightly tweaked version of Marth's moveset.

That's all there is to Lucina in Smash.

 

[Bladeviper]

...And that helps my point more than your own, as I already pointed out.

Many characters in Smash didn't have defined moves to pull from. They are simply based on the essence of the character, or the game they come from.

This extends to some clones, like Ganondorf, who ended up with a variation of Captain Falcon's moveset, simply because it was easy to picture him doing similar moves to Captain Falcon (they have vaguely similar physiques, Captain Falcon's moveset has a high impact feeling which goes well with Ganondorf's powerful looking stature).

This could easily work out for Chrom as an alt/clone. My point is that if making Lucina a generic sword using alt/clone was OK, why was it not for Chrom?

because it seems sakurai wanted to show off a major point of awakening with the pair up system and used chrom as a fs rather than doing that.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

Has the argument really been reduced to "If Lucina was introduced as a costume, then Chrom should be one too!"? Obviously they just made a choice about which would be more suitable and that ended with Lucina for several reasons, which have been stated numerous times... I don't claim to know the reasons why Chrom wasn't chosen as an alt as well as Lucina, but if we're going to go on and on with this "If X is in then Y should be too!" way of thinking then we'll get absolutely nowhere. The entire argument seems to have become very trivial to me. Saying that Chrom was unoriginal and then including Lucina as a costume (with its own slot or otherwise) does not necessitate Chrom's inclusion as a costume or character, nor does it imply a contradiction.

Possible reasons for Chrom not getting in:
- Wanted him to be Robin's final smash instead (likely; this is more than enough justification)
- Wanted to work on other costumes/clones instead of a second one from Fire Emblem (also likely and is also more than enough justification)
- Thought that having two Fire Emblem clones would be too many (less likely but possible)
- Was determined to not suit Ike's build and moveset well enough (not a solid reason, but y'know)

 

[ChikoLad]

Because of development circumstances as Sakurai, me and many people here have stated so many times.

She already had assets done for her to be a Marth alt. In other words, they had a Lucina model compatible with Marth's animations. All the development team did was that instead of giving her the exact same moveset as Marth so she would be a Marth alt, they decided to give her a slightly tweaked version of Marth's moveset.

That's all there is to Lucina in Smash.

I'm aware, but it's all there would be to Chrom in Smash too. He had a model, that much is certain. Could have been applied to Ike as an alt.

Has the argument really been reduced to "If Lucina was introduced as a costume, then Chrom should be one too!"? Obviously they just made a choice about which would be more suitable and that ended with Lucina for several reasons, which have been stated numerous times... I don't claim to know the reasons why Chrom wasn't chosen as an alt as well as Lucina, but if we're going to go on and on with this "If X is in then Y should be too!" way of thinking then we'll get absolutely nowhere. The entire argument seems to have become very trivial to me. Saying that Chrom was unoriginal and then including Lucina as a costume (with its own slot or otherwise) does not necessitate Chrom's inclusion as a costume or character, nor does it imply a contradiction.

Possible reasons for Chrom not getting in:
- Wanted him to be Robin's final smash instead (likely; this is more than enough justification)
- Wanted to work on other costumes/clones instead of a second one from Fire Emblem (also likely and is also more than enough justification)
- Thought that having two Fire Emblem clones would be too many (less likely but possible)
- Was determined to not suit Ike's build and moveset well enough (not a solid reason, but y'know)

I don't care about who got in over who, I am discussing his words in the article being very contradictory.

He states an ideal ("I don't make characters similar in my games").
He claims Chrom does not work with this ideal (because he viewed him as a generic swordsman).
He includes Lucina as a clone of Marth. Which is contrary to the ideal stated previously.

That is a contradiction, regardless of the circumstances behind it, and it's something people are allowed to criticise.

 

[Frostwraith]

I'm aware, but it's all there would be to Chrom in Smash too. He had a model, that much is certain. Could have been applied to Ike as an alt.

Not that simple because Chrom's existing model was meant to be used for Robin's Final Smash, unlike Lucina's that was meant to use Marth's animations.

If that same model was given Ike's animations, it probably would cause graphical glitches such as model stretching. As such, it would have to be reworked and that would take development time.

This is not accounting for the fact Ike uses a two handed sword, unlike Chrom who uses a one handed sword like Marth and Lucina, meaning the models have different proportions and Ragnell's hitboxes would be too big for Falchion's actual size. If we was going to be an alt of someone considering the models' characteristics, it likely would have been Marth.

We could argue about the many things that could have happened, but in the end, Robin and Lucina are playable characters and Chrom appears as a cameo in Robin's Final Smash. All of those were planned since the beginning, except Lucina was meant to be an alt, later changed to a playable character, even though her moveset is almost identical to another character.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

He states an ideal ("I don't make characters similar in my games").
He claims Chrom does not work with this ideal (because he viewed him as a generic swordsman).
He includes Lucina as a clone of Marth. Which is contrary to the ideal stated previously.

That is a contradiction, regardless of the circumstances behind it, and it's something people are allowed to criticise.

Let me go over what Sakurai said.

Of course, it would be really easy to make a game by churning out a ton of similar characters, but that's not how I produce games.

This isn't "I don't make characters similar in my games". It's "I'm not going to make a whole bunch of characters who pertain to the exact same archetype and fighting style when there are more unique characters I could choose from." In any case, reading what he said literally, he's talking about making "a ton" of similar characters - not about making any similar characters.
Furthermore, understand that Lucina is an exception to this because of her origins as a costume. This really does change everything about how her inclusion should be viewed; saying "regardless of the circumstances" when presenting your opinion just doesn't cut it here. It's not black and white.

At the end of the day, Chrom would just end up being another plain-old sword-wielder like Marth and Ike. Compared with other characters, he lacks any unique characteristics.

It's important to note that the context of this is the comparison of Chrom's potential inclusion to Robin's potential inclusion. Robin was chosen for obvious reasons related to his unique moveset potential. This directly supports what he said in the previous quote. Chrom wasn't chosen as a character because he didn't offer more unique qualities than other candidates and he wasn't chosen as an alt costume because Lucina was chosen instead for several reasons. I don't know when it was decided that he would be in Robin's final smash, but deciding to pay homage to what is a large part of Fire Emblem: Awakening by making that happen is also a good enough reason to not include Chrom in another way.

Initially, I had considered including Lucina as one of Marth's alternate costumes. After all, she has a close relationship with him in FE:A. In such cases, even if two characters' names and voices differ, as long as they function the same way, I assign them as alternate costumes. The Wii Fit Trainers, Villagers, and Robin are examples of this setup.
However, even though Lucina shares her physical stats and techniques with Marth, the characteristics of their attacks differ. When two such similar characters function in an even slightly different manner, I give them a separate spot on the roster since that will affect battle records and whatnot. In that sense, you could say she was very lucky to join the fray!

This quote states a few things:
- That Lucina's inclusion began with the idea that she would be a costume
- That he has reasoning for including Lucina as a costume for Marth that is supported by the canon of the game she appears in
- That he decided to give players an alternative playstyle to Marth's; in other words, we were given an extra option that we would not have has previously
- She was a "lucky" inclusion, reinforcing once again that she is an exception to the "similar characters" statement because of her unusual circumstances

There is so much in his article that prevents what he's said from being contradictory. You can paint it in black and white terms as you did, but it's just not that simple and reducing it as you did doesn't cut it in my eyes.

And yes, of course you're allowed to criticise his decisions and disagree with me. I'm just pointing out why I disagree with how you're approaching what he's said and the decisions he made. Also, I like discussions that don't involve flaming and you haven't flamed at all. Kudos.

 

[ChikoLad]

Not that simple because Chrom's existing model was meant to be used for Robin's Final Smash, unlike Lucina's that was meant to use Marth's animations.

If that same model was given Ike's animations, it probably would cause graphical glitches such as model stretching. As such, it would have to be reworked and that would take development time.

This is not accounting for the fact Ike uses a two handed sword, unlike Chrom who uses a one handed sword like Marth and Lucina, meaning the models have different proportions and Ragnell's hitboxes would be too big for Falchion's actual size. If we was going to be an alt of someone considering the models' characteristics, it likely would have been Marth.

We could argue about the many things that could have happened, but in the end, Robin and Lucina are playable characters and Chrom appears as a cameo in Robin's Final Smash. All of those were planned since the beginning, except Lucina was meant to be an alt, later changed to a playable character, even though her moveset is almost identical to another character.

Chrom was not always a Final Smash for Robin. Can someone please tell me why people keep making this assumption? It's more logical to assume that Chrom was actually experimented with as a playable fighter, since Sakurai mentioning that he considered him would have to mean more than "he was a passing thought", since he never really talks about characters he considers.

With that in mind, he had a workable playable model, which could have been fine tuned as an Ike alt/clone. It wouldn't be that hard for a AAA studio.

Let me go over what Sakurai said.


This isn't "I don't make characters similar in my games". It's "I'm not going to make a whole bunch of characters who pertain to the exact same archetype and fighting style when there are more unique characters I could choose from." In any case, reading what he said literally, he's talking about making "a ton" of similar characters - not about making any similar characters.
Furthermore, understand that Lucina is an exception to this because of her origins as a costume. This really does change everything about how her inclusion should be viewed; saying "regardless of the circumstances" when presenting your opinion just doesn't cut it here. It's not black and white.


It's important to note that the context of this is the comparison of Chrom's potential inclusion to Robin's potential inclusion. Robin was chosen for obvious reasons related to his unique moveset potential. This directly supports what he said in the previous quote. Chrom wasn't chosen as a character because he didn't offer more unique qualities than other candidates and he wasn't chosen as an alt costume because Lucina was chosen instead for several reasons. I don't know when it was decided that he would be in Robin's final smash, but deciding to pay homage to what is a large part of Fire Emblem: Awakening by making that happen is also a good enough reason to not include Chrom in another way.


This quote states a few things:
- That Lucina's inclusion began with the idea that she would be a costume
- That he has reasoning for including Lucina as a costume for Marth that is supported by the canon of the game she appears in
- That he decided to give players an alternative playstyle to stick to; in other words, we were given an extra option that we would not have has previously
- She was a "lucky" inclusion, reinforcing once again that she is an exception to the "similar characters" statement because of her unusual circumstances

There is so much in his article that prevents what he's said from being contradictory. You can paint it in black and white terms as you did, but it's just not that simple and reducing it as you did doesn't cut it in my eyes.

You tell me I can't look at it in black and white, and proceed to exaggerate every little thing into something bigger (as well as tie in unrelated elements). Sorry, but that doesn't fly.

This isn't "I don't make characters similar in my games". It's "I'm not going to make a whole bunch of characters who pertain to the exact same archetype and fighting style when there are more unique characters I could choose from." In any case, reading what he said literally, he's talking about making "a ton" of similar characters - not about making any similar characters.

Yes it is "I don't make characters similar in my games". He has a general rule of trying to not make them similar.

Lucina's promotion to clone, separate roster spot, directly contradicts that. This isn't like Mario and Luigi, or Ness and Lucas, who are somewhat similar in their own games, but have different properties in their own games (therefore, differentiating them in their own slots is completely necessary).

Making Lucina's sword "balanced across the blade" is completely arbitrary. I cannot fathom why this change, which came AFTER the decision to make her an alt, was made. It doesn't do anything to represent the character, it's a very meta/game-y difference. It's not a necessary change, like Luigi's slipperiness and higher jump (which is something he has in the Mario games, and is supposed to be reflective of his clumsy nature compared to Mario). And it certainly doesn't make her terribly set apart from Marth, since they can still be largely played the same, and this change could have been applied to Marth as it was using the game's equipment system, for those who really want his power balanced across the blade. There is absolutely no excuse, from an originality or even design standpoint, to give her any slight differences if she was intended to be an alt.

It's important to note that the context of this is the comparison of Chrom's potential inclusion to Robin's potential inclusion. Robin was chosen for obvious reasons related to his unique moveset potential. This directly supports what he said in the previous quote. Chrom wasn't chosen as a character because he didn't offer more unique qualities than other candidates and he wasn't chosen as an alt costume because Lucina was chosen instead for several reasons.

The context of the quote regarding Chrom was that he had no new qualities to offer compared to any character on the Smash Bros roster (note his use of the word "roster", which would only refer to Smash Bros in this case), and that was the stated reason for him getting the axe. It wasn't comparing him to Robin exclusively. That's all well and good, and Robin clearly was the more unique choice between the two anyway. Had Lucina not been given her own slot to offer absolutely nothing unique, this would be fine. That is not the case though.

The contradiction could also have been averted if he never made that comment on Chrom to begin with, meaning Lucina's inclusion as a Marth clone would not be a contradiction to any comments on other characters.

 

[Dracometeor]

They have to do with the fact they have little to no similarities as characters, and no canon relation, yet still ended up as similar characters in Smash. I don't see why Chrom as an Ike alt/clone would be a stretch, because of that.



...Or they could make Chrom a faster Ike, rather than mimicking his slow speed?

Also, these guys have movesets comprised almost entirely of moves they NEVER use in their own game. I don't see why Chrom can't do that.

Plus, plenty of Smash characters have had Smash movesets made on the basis of what their character is, rather than relying on the limited techniques they get a chance to show in their own games (, for example).

Well for one Ganondorf and Capt Falcon are the same height and about the same body build as each other. Chrom is not.....at all. I don't know why you keep trying to bring up this example. Ike and Chrom have different physiques. I mean it's like giving Charizard the same moveset as Pikachu.

The rest is just random clone info. The characters you mentioned are also NOT from games based on combat, where they wouldn't have enough info to actually make movesets. Chrom is in a war game, he fights with a sword and it would be ridiculous to give him fighting moves he doesn't showcase in the game, because it's WHAT HE DOES IN HIS GAME. He fights. He has a moveset. Does Capt Falcon fight people? Does Rosalina fight people? I mean Capt Falcon drives a "car" obviously they have to improvise. There is no reason to improvise with Chrom.


Also back on point about Lucina and Chrom. While Chrom was cut before the development phase he was never graced with any animations tied to a character model. However Lucina was planned as a alternate costume, because of this she had a character model created that was mapped to all of Marth's animations. Therefore when Sakurai decided he wanted to add another character there wouldn't even be the consideration of adding Chrom because he had no models. Whereas Lucina had a model made and making her a seperate character would be simple by removing the tipper mechanic.

The only argument that could be made is WHY Sakurai decided he needed to add another character if they were going to be very similar, instead of keeping Lucina as an alternate. NOTHING to do with Chrom though.

Anyways SA-Y does a great job at explaining things to you and breaking down your arguments.

Keep it up!

Edit: Just saw Sonic's new post.

Explain to me how Sakurai considering a character mean they had a playable model? To me this sounds more like he tried to map out a moveset, was unable to think of one unique and then scrapped him. Not sure why he would need a model to do that....

 

[ChikoLad]

Well for one Ganondorf and Capt Falcon are the same height and about the same body build as each other. Chrom is not.....at all. I don't know why you keep trying to bring up this example. Ike and Chrom have different physiques. I mean it's like giving Charizard the same moveset as Pikachu.

No, Ganondorf and Captain Falcon had to be greatly scaled about to resemble each other's heights. Canonically, Captain Falcon is 6'0", Ganondorf is 7'6". Considering how Rosalina is canonically 7'8" and how her Smash size is true to that (comparing her to ZSS and her canon size), I think Captain Falcon was actually scaled up more than Ganondorf was scaled down, in past games.

There actually are NO canon heights stated for Chrom or Ike (none that I can find, anyway), nor do their models seem much different height wise in the Fire Emblem games. So really, Chrom being around the same height as Ike is MUCH more believable than Captain Falcon and Ganondorf being around the same height.

The rest is just random clone info.

This assures me you aren't properly reading a word I say.

I said both Ness and Lucas have movesets comprised mostly of things OTHER CHARACTERS from their own games do. Very few of their moves are their own abilities (oh, and they are from RPGs, so they aren't a far cry from Fire Emblem characters). Robin also has Nosferatu, which apparently can't be done by him in the form his Smash appearance represents. So tell me, why is it so ridiculous for Chrom to do things other characters do for Smash? This is always how I thought he could be incorporated as a unique character (make him a weaponmaster, though I guess Mii Swordfighter robbed him of that to a small extent). But even making him an Ike clone is workable. He may not use Ragnell, but what about other greatswords? Or even without that, he could use a longsword, meaning he's still two-handed like Ike, but is faster and has much more range. There are many things they could have done that would take little effort, to make him an Ike clone/alt.

As for Captain Falcon and Rosalina, they still back up my point that characters can be improvised. Rosalina in particular has a few things she has done in her own games, but none of them are used in Smash Bros. The spin attack from 3D World? Not in Smash. The reflective barrier she casts around herself when you jump on her or shoot Star Bits at her in Galaxy? Nowhere to be found. The Comet Observatory transformation that she casts, and blows through Bowser's entire fleet with? Would make for a SPECTACULAR Final Smash, but instead she pulls out a random Power Star and it shoots stuff.

Explain to me how Sakurai considering a character mean they had a playable model? To me this sounds more like he tried to map out a moveset, was unable to think of one unique and then scrapped him. Not sure why he would need a model to do that....

I already did - Sakurai never talks about cut characters until the next game where said character becomes playable ("Pac-Man was considered for Brawl"), or if he actually had toyed around with them, but implemented them into the game another way instead.

And regardless of that, you're delusional if you think Chrom wasn't getting a 3D model in this game. He at least was going to make trophy status. And trophies can be turned into animated models. I've seen it done with Eggman's trophy model in Brawl, so surely these AAA developers can do it.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

You tell me I can't look at it in black and white, and proceed to exaggerate every little thing into something bigger (as well as tie in unrelated elements). Sorry, but that doesn't fly.

Where did I exaggerate every little thing into something bigger? I was attempting to logically extrapolate what was being implied based on what I was reading. Apologies if I exaggerated, but I had no intention to and can't see where I did.

Yes it is "I don't make characters similar in my games". He has a general rule of trying to not make them similar.

Lucina's promotion to clone, separate roster spot, directly contradicts that. This isn't like Mario and Luigi, or Ness and Lucas, who are somewhat similar in their own games, but have different properties in their own games (therefore, differentiating them in their own slots is completely necessary).

If Lucina were built from the ground up to be a clone, my entire stance on her inclusion would change. Her promotion from a costume to a character is just not quite the same as developing a cloned moveset as part of a push to "churn out a ton of similar characters". It might seem like a small difference, but it completely changes how I approach her inclusion.
Character designed to be a clone of another character (e.g. Ganondorf) =/= a character designed to be a costume and then promoted to have its own slot and slight mechanical differences (i.e. Lucina).

Making Lucina's sword "balanced across the blade" is completely arbitrary. I cannot fathom why this change, which came AFTER the decision to make her an alt, was made. It doesn't do anything to represent the character, it's a very meta/game-y difference. It's not a necessary change, like Luigi's slipperiness and higher jump (which is something he has in the Mario games, and is supposed to be reflective of his clumsy nature compared to Mario). And it certainly doesn't make her terribly set apart from Marth, since they can still be largely played the same, and this change could have been applied to Marth as it was using the game's equipment system, for those who really want his power balanced across the blade. There is absolutely no excuse, from an originality or even design standpoint, to give her any slight differences if she was intended to be an alt.

Yes, it isn't a necessary addition. And what of it? He doesn't need an excuse to give players more options. Similar or not, we have an alternative option that we didn't have otherwise and Lucina fans are now happier for her legitimisation as a character in Smash. I just can not see any legitimate downside to her promotion to a standalone character.

The context of the quote regarding Chrom was that he had no new qualities to offer compared to any character on the Smash Bros roster (note his use of the word "roster", which would only refer to Smash Bros in this case), and that was the stated reason for him getting the axe. It wasn't comparing him to Robin exclusively.

You're probably right here. My point, however, was that he wasn't being compared to Lucina, and that Robin - not Lucina - was given a slot over him for reasons pertaining to uniqueness.


Allow me to focus for a moment on a single point: her promotion to a character with its own slot.
To me, this is a decision that brought with it absolutely no downsides and a few small positives that justify the decision in its entirety. I am a fan of Lucina so I can't claim to not have any bias at all (though I'm doing my best), but I would feel the same way about this situation arising for any other character. I'd be happy to see the return of Dr. Mario and Young Link as characters with their own slot. The point is, even though the changes Lucina received weren't necessary, why are they a bad thing when we get more options as a result? It's a small bonus that makes her fanbase happy and shouldn't bother others nearly as much as it has. I'm just really struggling to understand why some view her promotion so negatively.


EDIT: With regards to Chrom's potential inclusion, he could have been an alternate costume for Ike or Marth if they had wanted him to be. Technical limitations can't really be blamed here. He wasn't included for a reason, though, and I've already stated the more likely and solid reasons in my previous post.

 

[Vann Accessible]

I read a bit of these wall o' texts before coming to this conclusion:

Lucina becoming a clone over a Marth alt costume is an arbitrary difference. It didn't take any considerable time or effort to make this change. This decision didn't affect Chrom being playable either way. The only difference is she has her own slot on the character select screen. Whoopdie doo. Get over it. Go worry about something that matters.

 

[MrPanic]

...
With that in mind, he had a workable playable model, which could have been fine tuned as an Ike alt/clone. It wouldn't be that hard for a AAA studio.
...

What is this assumption based on? From a development point of view this makes no sense at all to me. From how he worded it in the interview, he basically said he could come up with a good moveset for Robin and not for Chrom. Those are calls you gonna make very early in the design process, before you gonna make models and designs and whatnot. You pretty much flesh out the character on paper fully before you gonna waste time and resources on actually producing it. That fact alone is enough to be 99% sure that Chrom definitely not had a playable model, nor did it ever had one.

Don't forget that the co-op thing Robin does in his FS is a very common occurrence in the FE game itself, so it would be highly likely they decided to make that Robin's FS during the design phase of Robin. So the decision to make Chrom appear in Robin's decision wouldn't be weird at all considering how they are in the source game, Chrom's popularity and Sakurai's attempt to think up a moveset for him. It's highly likely Chrom's model was made specifically for that FS from the beginning of development.

Considering all that I think it's easy to see why they wouldn't turn him into a clone. I don't know if you'll agree with my assumptions I made here, but since these assumptions are made with development logic in mind I would suggest you'll at least try to take them into consideration because your assumptions just seem straight up wild and illogical to me.

About the Lucina situation, and this will be a wild assumption from me, I think that they can basically not finish a certain character in time for release so they scrapped that character late in development. That would leave a hole in the roster so they had to come up with a easy to make character, and since they basically already had Lucina working as alt costume, changing the properties slightly would be the most cost-effective way to fill up a slot. Of course Sakurai can't say in a interview "We were making Ridley, but he didn't work out in the end so we filled his slot up with clone Lucina!" so that's why we got this dumb explanation about her being different gave her a slot, which obviously isn't the real reason a clone gets a slot on the roster.

 

[ChikoLad]

I don't really view her promotion as negative on it's own (completely indifferent to it in that sense). In relation to this article though, Sakurai has made her inclusion come across as...just pandering for the sake of pandering, and like he is blatantly favouring one character over another for no real professional reason (since he claimed Chrom couldn't make it due to being generic, yet making Lucina a generic clone is OK to him).

If she had remained an alt, I would at least hold some positivity to her inclusion regardless of this interview, since she would be the first "complete character swap" alt in the history of the franchise, which would make me hopeful for other possibilities, like Ms. Pac-Man for Pac-Man, and Daisy for Peach. It's something a NON LUCINA FAN could appreciate and get excited over without having to say "I'm happy for her fans" (which is something I always am - until fans of said character won't accept any valid criticism of the character).

However, since she ended up being a generic clone, she adds nothing new. No, the lack of a tipper isn't new. Link doesn't have that mechanic and most of his attacks revolve around his sword. As do other non-Marth sword fighters in the game.

Also, there is the fact that she isn't the first Marth clone in the history of the franchise, and while I can feel happy for the Lucina fans, I can't say the same for Roy fans, who have been hoping for years and years, especially since there is evidence to suggest he was supposed to be in Brawl...so that's 6 years of waiting on Roy, and they get no Roy. While Lucina fans have had two years at most, and likely had other FE:A characters (like Robin and Chrom) they would have wanted anyway. A lot of Roy fans just wanted Roy, because of Melee, and because he apparently stood out very well in his own game.

Go worry about something that matters.

Don't ever say this on a video game forum you yourself post on, let alone one that thrives on speculation. It makes you look like a bit of a tool.

At the end of the day, none of the pre-release discussions we have on this site mean anything in terms of what the game is actually like. But if people want to discuss things, no matter how pointless, then so be it.

What is this assumption based on?

Again, he at least has a trophy.

 

[TeaTwoTime]

he is blatantly favouring one character over another for no real professional reason (since he claimed Chrom couldn't make it due to being generic, yet making Lucina a generic clone is OK to him).

I feel like I and others have explained, in great detail with solid reasoning, why this isn't a valid line of thinking. I don't particularly want to repeat myself again. I've covered this several times already.

However, since she ended up being a generic clone, she adds nothing new. No, the lack of a tipper isn't new. Link doesn't have that mechanic and most of his attacks revolve around his sword. As do other non-Marth sword fighters in the game.

Well, it's fair enough to wish that she'd represented a type of character inclusion that had never been done.
Her moveset changes don't have to be completely new to be worth including, though. It would indeed be nice if she had a more unique moveset, but her current moveset is also justified given her "lucky" promotion to a character from being a costume model that shared Marth's animations.

It's something a NON LUCINA FAN could appreciate and get excited over without having to say "I'm happy for her fans" (which is something I always am - until fans of said character won't accept any valid criticism of the character).

I won't speak for others, but I've personally been trying to take everything you've said in stride without bias and am by no means just rejecting your arguments because I want to support a character I like. I honestly take issue with your views and interpretations surrounding this issue and want to share why. I've even attempted to state that I concede that your points are valid when I feel that they are.

 

[ChikoLad]

I feel like I and others have explained, in great detail with solid reasoning, why this isn't a valid line of thinking. I don't particularly want to repeat myself again. I've covered this several times already.


Well, it's fair enough to wish that she'd represented a type of character inclusion that had never been done.
Her moveset changes don't have to be completely new to be worth including, though. It would indeed be nice if she had a more unique moveset, but her current moveset is also justified given her "lucky" promotion to a character from being a costume model that shared Marth's animations.


I won't speak for others, but I've personally been trying to take everything you've said in stride without bias and am by no means just rejecting your arguments because I want to support a character I like. I honestly take issue with your views and interpretations surrounding this issue and want to share why. I've even attempted to state that I concede that your points are valid when I feel that they are.

Sorry, wasn't solid enough. My interpretation is perfectly valid.

And I still don't think her current implementation is satisfactory even given the circumstances. Again, as far as rushed clones go, she's as redundant they get, and her portrayal as a character has no value either (if Smash is telling me anything about her character, it's that she's a generic anime style heroine with no interesting qualities to speak of). So really, I have no reason, as a non Lucina fan, to see her as a cool or fresh addition.

...And I'm not sure why you said what you did at the end there, but OK?

 

[TeaTwoTime]

Well, okay. I think that you're objectively wrong on some points but I'll agree to disagree here and write it off as a shame that you couldn't be convinced. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

...And I'm not sure why you said what you did at the end there, but OK?

Because of this, which you said and I quoted:

until fans of said character won't accept any valid criticism of the character

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

I don't really view her promotion as negative on it's own (completely indifferent to it in that sense). In relation to this article though, Sakurai has made her inclusion come across as...just pandering for the sake of pandering, and like he is blatantly favouring one character over another for no real professional reason (since he claimed Chrom couldn't make it due to being generic, yet making Lucina a generic clone is OK to him).

If she had remained an alt, I would at least hold some positivity to her inclusion regardless of this interview, since she would be the first "complete character swap" alt in the history of the franchise, which would make me hopeful for other possibilities, like Ms. Pac-Man for Pac-Man, and Daisy for Peach. It's something a NON LUCINA FAN could appreciate and get excited over without having to say "I'm happy for her fans" (which is something I always am - until fans of said character won't accept any valid criticism of the character).

However, since she ended up being a generic clone, she adds nothing new. No, the lack of a tipper isn't new. Link doesn't have that mechanic and most of his attacks revolve around his sword. As do other non-Marth sword fighters in the game.

Also, there is the fact that she isn't the first Marth clone in the history of the franchise, and while I can feel happy for the Lucina fans, I can't say the same for Roy fans, who have been hoping for years and years, especially since there is evidence to suggest he was supposed to be in Brawl...so that's 6 years of waiting on Roy, and they get no Roy. While Lucina fans have had two years at most, and likely had other FE:A characters (like Robin and Chrom) they would have wanted anyway. A lot of Roy fans just wanted Roy, because of Melee, and because he apparently stood out very well in his own game.



Don't ever say this on a video game forum you yourself post on, let alone one that thrives on speculation. It makes you look like a bit of a tool.

At the end of the day, none of the pre-release discussions we have on this site mean anything in terms of what the game is actually like. But if people want to discuss things, no matter how pointless, then so be it.



Again, he at least has a trophy.

To be fair, she was at one time planned to be a "complete character swap." And only by providence, got upgraded to a clone character.

So there still is hope that others may have these glorified alts.

 

[ChikoLad]

Well, okay. I think that you're objectively wrong on some points but I'll agree to disagree here and write it off as a shame that you couldn't be convinced. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Because of this, which you said and I quoted:

That quote was not in referral to you or even in referral to Lucina fans as a whole. Although it applies to some Lucina fans on tumblr who would literally try to insinuate that she is not even a clone of Marth, I wasn't referring to you, just my general stance on "being happy for people who get their characters" since you questioned why I couldn't just be happy for Lucina's fans (even though I am to a degree).

 

[TeaTwoTime]

That quote was not in referral to you or even in referral to Lucina fans as a whole. Although it applies to some Lucina fans on tumblr who would literally try to insinuate that she is not even a clone of Marth, I wasn't referring to you, just my general stance on "being happy for people who get their characters" since you questioned why I couldn't just be happy for Lucina's fans (even though I am to a degree).

Fair enough. Apologies for misinterpreting you. I've seen some of the blind Lucina support myself and don't particularly want to be bundled in with them.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Of all the disconfirmed characters, how come Chrom is the only one Sakurai felt the need to clarify his reasoning over his exclusion so far as opposed to other disconfirmed characters?

 

[Frostwraith]

Of all the disconfirmed characters, how come Chrom is the only one Sakurai felt the need to clarify his reasoning over his exclusion so far as opposed to other disconfirmed characters?

Because Robin and Lucina (the other protagonists of Fire Emblem: Awakening) are playable.

Many people expected Chrom to be the Fire Emblem: Awakening character.

 

[ChikoLad]

Because Robin and Lucina (the other protagonists of Fire Emblem: Awakening) are playable.

Many people expected Chrom to be the Fire Emblem: Awakening character.

That doesn't necessarily explain why he would talk about this instance. Many people were expecting Bowser. Jr, or even Waluigi as a Mario rep (the latter of which we know Sakurai is aware of the demand for), yet we got Rosalina instead.

Though I guess he let us in on the Fire Emblem situation because he did actually have something to talk about and thought about different characters in that instance, while in the case of a Mario rep, maybe Rosalina was his first choice and she just clicked from the get go. The same situation sort of happened with Greninja.

 

[Deleted member]

Of all the disconfirmed characters, how come Chrom is the only one Sakurai felt the need to clarify his reasoning over his exclusion so far as opposed to other disconfirmed characters?

Because Sakurai is the Gematsu tipper.

 

[ScottyWK]

Unnecessary second sentence.

Yeah, I know she was planned as an alt costume at first, but she was made into a newcomer. They could have just as easily done that with Chrom, right? Not saying I'd prefer Chrom, but even if you are looking at it as the initial alt costume choice, Chrom could have also worked for an alt, just as much as Lucina, but they most likely went with Lucina because she's a female (again, nothing wrong with that).

Also, Chrom wouldn't have to be just another sword fighter. Sakurai has come up with move-sets on his own for characters before.

You're still missing the point. He decided early on that Chrom wouldn't be playable and Robin would be. That led to Chrom being a part of Robin's final smash. Meanwhile, while working on Lucina (more than likely after Robin had been given Chrom as part of his FS), they realized that Lucina's properties began differeing a bit from Marth's. So they simple just created a square on the Character Select Screen for Lucina and took her out of Marth's square.

Sure, he could have done Chrom, but they already had everything they needed for Lucina (essentially copy and paste into a CSS spot). It was easy and convenient.

 

[Deleted member]

This would have been so much easier if Sakurai hadn't mentioned Chrom and just explained how Lucina went from costume to character.

 

[Ryan.]

You're still missing the point. He decided early on that Chrom wouldn't be playable and Robin would be. That led to Chrom being a part of Robin's final smash. Meanwhile, while working on Lucina (more than likely after Robin had been given Chrom as part of his FS), they realized that Lucina's properties began differeing a bit from Marth's. So they simple just created a square on the Character Select Screen for Lucina and took her out of Marth's square.

Sure, he could have done Chrom, but they already had everything they needed for Lucina (essentially copy and paste into a CSS spot). It was easy and convenient.

I suppose Lucina was easy and convenient, but I just think Chrom would have been just as easy. Even if he was already part of Robin's FS, that doesn't mean he couldn't have been an alt costume as well, but Lucina made more sense. I don't disagree with his decision at all, I don't mind Lucina over Chrom as I am not even an FE player. I just don't agree with the logic that Chrom would have been another plain-old sword-weilder if he were added on the roster. If Sakurai wanted to, he could have put in a unique move-set for him.

 

[Bladeviper]

I suppose Lucina was easy and convenient, but I just think Chrom would have been just as easy. Even if he was already part of Robin's FS, that doesn't mean he couldn't have been an alt costume as well, but Lucina made more sense. I don't disagree with his decision at all, I don't mind Lucina over Chrom as I am not even an FE player. I just don't agree with the logic that Chrom would have been another plain-old sword-weilder if he were added on the roster. If Sakurai wanted to, he could have put in a unique move-set for him.

i think having chrom be both a character and part of robin's fs would be a bit jarring but that may be just me. Also he could have made a unique move set but i think he opted for robin due to the fact he was able to make the move set more quickly and also make it interesting

 

[Dracometeor]

I suppose Lucina was easy and convenient, but I just think Chrom would have been just as easy. Even if he was already part of Robin's FS, that doesn't mean he couldn't have been an alt costume as well, but Lucina made more sense. I don't disagree with his decision at all, I don't mind Lucina over Chrom as I am not even an FE player. I just don't agree with the logic that Chrom would have been another plain-old sword-weilder if he were added on the roster. If Sakurai wanted to, he could have put in a unique move-set for him.

Chrom would have taken development time. Even to make him a clone they would have had to model his animations and create him as a 3d model, and then map the animations to that model. (Chrom being a final smash makes this even more difficult, force them to recreate Robins Final smash and still map the animations to his model) Lucina already had that done. You can tell how little time they wanted to spend since they didn't even change any of Lucinas animations/attacks.

 

[Pazzo.]

Sakurai's reasoning behind choosing Lucina over Chrom: The fanbase.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

I suppose Lucina was easy and convenient, but I just think Chrom would have been just as easy. Even if he was already part of Robin's FS, that doesn't mean he couldn't have been an alt costume as well, but Lucina made more sense. I don't disagree with his decision at all, I don't mind Lucina over Chrom as I am not even an FE player. I just don't agree with the logic that Chrom would have been another plain-old sword-weilder if he were added on the roster. If Sakurai wanted to, he could have put in a unique move-set for him.

I think Sakurai could've gave him a unique moveset. But I think he didn't do it because no matter what, he would still be fighting against the fact that he is another white, male, blue hair, sword-user.

At the very least, Lucina is a girl.