Tranquility - Game Over

[Shenanigenius]

I didn't like pawn and I was expecting a guilty when we copped him.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

By allowing Vinyl. to get modkilled we get a slot that is basically meaningless and get a 50/50 chance of a scum-flip, even if he flips town, it still allows Shen to get an investigation, though it's super likely he would get targeted either with an RB or a simple NK.

This really sucks and I hate the fact Vinyl. is ****ing this game over.

 

[Shenanigenius]

That slot's play pre and even a little bit post laundry made me weep to say the least.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Soup, what is with the insistence in a Vinyl modkill?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Soup, what is with the insistence in a Vinyl modkill?

I just don't see anyone claiming they're going to replace, and I really, really, do not like that slot. I hate if it would happen but I also feel like wasting a lynch on him is worthless.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I think YOLO is becoming more likely to be scum more and more for me. The recent turn of events is really changing things around for me. I'll put it into better words once I'm finished eating.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

why do you do this

why do you always ****ing do this

as soon as you mentioned a claim i ****ing knew you were a pr

dammit rake

unvote

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

for what it's worth, this is the third game in a row where rake has played like absolute **** as a pr

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I haven't delved much into the Gheb/Kantplay interaction but I do know that Gheb is essentially telling Kantplay that the way he would vote with his main scum-reads is alarming to him. I think in hindsight Gheb's argument is sufficient but yet again Kantplay has been kind of hand-waving his read on Shen throughout the whole game. If anything, the inconsistency is what bothers me.

I've never understood that argument though. Inconsistency bothers you? What's scummy about inconsistency? It's easier for the mafia to be consistent with their reads because they know who is mafia and who isn't. Like, I know this kind of contradicts my attack against Kantrip but I personally am not convinced that "incosistency" is a scumtell unless you think that he played that way for tactical reasons, which I don't think you believe to be the case [as I assume you would've pointed that out].

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

i'm interested to hear your theory on marshy soup. you're the third (fourth?) slot to mention distaste for him.

also i can't quote a damn thing at the moment because my connection is that bad and i'm not sure why it is. college internet has never been outstanding but i can't even get the ethernet chord to work right

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I've never understood that argument though. Inconsistency bothers you? What's scummy about inconsistency? It's easier for the mafia to be consistent with their reads because they know who is mafia and who isn't. Like, I know this kind of contradicts my attack against Kantrip but I personally am not convinced that "incosistency" is a scumtell unless you think that he played that way for tactical reasons, which I don't think you believe to be the case [as I assume you would've pointed that out].

It's a certain kind of inconsistency. A townie knows what they like and dislike, a scum has to pretend it. You make a good point that it's easier for mafia to be consistent, but it's far more intricate then that. I cannot explain a pure definition, rather I alluded as to why I dislike the inconsistency coming from Kantplay.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

@ #HBC | Nabe : The problem that I have with your read on me isn't the fact that I'm uninformed of your general inability to read me. I'm surprised that you labeled me town-lean with the tag of "benefit of the doubt". In the past, albeit I can't remember the game, you called me a scumread of yours with the tag of "I can never read Laundry as anything other than scum" or something along those lines. Hell, I can't remember a game where you have townread me without having another head and even then, you made notes of how my presence in the slot interfered with your read. Seeing you label me "town" with the benefit of the doubt is weird. The thing that strikes me the most odd is that, despite admitting that you can't read me well, you never seek help with it. You never try to progress it. Despite seeing me play, you are still giving me the benefit of the doubt. That's off to me.

This isn't the only read that I find particularly odd. I don't agree with your soup read, not because it's weird but because soup's play has improved over the course of the game and yet you mention that he's only gotten worse as your read wore on. I can understand your Gheb read to an extent but the last line of your last post addressed to me has me intrigued on who you would see him with as scum.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

ebwop: basically what i'm saying is that you admit to having trouble reading me, and that's okay, but you were seemingly dodging the question when asked why your read was there, it's different from how you handled reading me in the past, and you aren't seeking help or opinions from others when it comes to reading my slot.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

next class up

soup pls have your post on yolo up by the time i'm back

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Shen's claim ... I'm somewhat conflicted about. I particularly "like" his claim to have investigated Ryu N1 because that totally explains why I felt he was "hiding" behind RA earlier in the game and why he wouldn't really go out of his way to explain his behavior. But an inno result is a pretty good explanation. I do wonder though, why he'd play that way as cop. Like, we all know Rake doesn't really play that way but with Dietz in a hydra I'd expect a more ... tactical approach. But if nobody CCs I think we should drop Shen from our lynchpool [unless somebody can tell me a reason why we shouldn't].

This makes me more comfortable with my vote on Kantplay. But I'm also starting to see a "necessity" to get rid of Vinyl's slot soon since a replacement hasn't been announced yet and afaik Day phase lasts only for 3 more days. What really sucks is that a Vinyl townflip [or any other townflip] will put is into lylo toMorrow assuming a 3-man mafia team. Add a potential indy and the anti-town factions will have the numerical advantage. We're ****ed if we lynch player X and then Vinyl gets modkilled alongside him.

@ #HBC | Kary

Can you please keep us updated on the Vinyl situation? We *need* to know if and when you consider modkilling him and whether you are able to find a replacement for him soon.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

The subject of consistency is really interesting though to be honest. Marshy is a player who is known for his consistency. Everyone is aware of how marshy is going to play in a game, so it's really hard to get a beat on whether what he's doing is town or scum. That's what he excels at. That's what Ryker excels at. They get away with this kind of play because it's so expectant of them so nobody bothers to question it. It's a very good style to pick up but very hard to use well.

There are also other players that come to mind with 'consistency', and Nabe is one of them. He has formed an image of his play that allows him to be null for most games. He gets a lot directed hate for justifiable reasons, but for him being null nobody wants to take the risk of lynching him because there is a centralized idea that there is more information in looking towards one of the active players. That's why Nabe got away with what he did in Luigi's, he always avoided getting lynched because he let townies argue with themselves.

Don't let him do that. I'm really surprised that Nabe seems to be making a conscious effort in that sense, even if I'm not sure what the **** he is doing still. I'm very concerned about Nabe, but I cannot pinpoint what the concern is at the moment.

@Washed Coming up in my next post.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm also curious to see what soup has to say about Yolo. He's the biggest question mark to me because I'm willing to believe shen's claim for now [which more or less eliminates Laundryscum as an option]. Kantrip's my strongest scumread, Laundry, shen and RA are town in my book now but Nabe, Vinyl, Yolo and soup are all floating around in the null-area. Nabe I haven't really tried to read yet tbh and who the hell knows what's up with Vinyl. But seeing where soup stands regarding Yolo could shed some light on two slots I've been very unsure about all game.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

My dislike of YOLO makes more sense if Shen is town. I mentioned how marshy is a consistent player and is hard to get a beat on, but he's not perfect. There are some instances where I feel he is very awkward with his reads and I worry about him. His standards so far don't make sense to me, and I feel like he is playing towards his image than actually scumhunting. If anyone else besides marshy would be playing the way he is, he would be under much more scrutiny. He's always claiming towards dislike of slots but the actions he actually takes against them isn't really to be seen. There were instances of JTB/Pawn/BSP but really there's a different vibe than the one that I get thinking about marshy from Luigi's. I feel like marshy is playing it safe, and he's not taking risks. I recalled his really weird statement in the beginning where he openly mentioned where he was town. It still gives me a bad vibe to think about, and while it's typical of marshy to boast, it just feels out of place.

I looked aside this because I wanted to believe the way marshy was playing was typical town for him, but in light of recent events, I can't ignore the possibility that I'm being fooled.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@ #HBC | Nabe
@YOLOSWAG

Earlier I have mentioned the feeling that Kantrip has been trying to lump a whole bunch of people with shenaniscum, namely you two and myself. Do you agree with that impression? If yes, how do you feel about that with shen's claim being out now? Any way to convince you guys that Potato should be the play toDay? If not, who else would you guys suggest lynching?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

What I mean by awkward with marshy is specifically something he did in the beginning of this phase. Me and Gheb were claiming our dislike of Potato and were voting him and marshy decided to hop on with us too. I was figuring he was ready to pull the HBC but instead he surprised me with his unvote. I think marshy is aware of his own limitations and he knows that there is so much of the #HBC excuse he can pull before people get suspicious of him. I feel like marshy is playing opportunistic right now, pushing slots that are getting the most **** while staying aloof about the ones who aren't much of a concern.

It's possible I'm wrong on this, and marshy is just being marshy, but if I accepted that, then marshy would win every scum game he's ever been in.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This doesn't really help me, soup. YOLO =/= marshy. You def need to add the KevMo-side in your equation if you wanna read the slot. Even though KevMo probably didn't post as much as marshy did, I kinda doubt that marshy would go all out pushing his reads without talking things through with Kevin first. Like, I agree with your overall impression of the slot [which is why I've never really moved him out of my null-pool] but is that really enough to dislike his slot? I think it's perfectly fine to be sceptical of him and I agree that his play probably shouldn't be tolerated for much longer but I can see other explanations on why he plays that way and most of them are rather null-tells than scummy.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

This doesn't really help me, soup. YOLO =/= marshy. You def need to add the KevMo-side in your equation if you wanna read the slot. Even though KevMo probably didn't post as much as marshy did, I kinda doubt that marshy would go all out pushing his reads without talking things through with Kevin first. Like, I agree with your overall impression of the slot [which is why I've never really moved him out of my null-pool] but is that really enough to dislike his slot? I think it's perfectly fine to be sceptical of him and I agree that his play probably shouldn't be tolerated for much longer but I can see other explanations on why he plays that way and most of them are rather null-tells than scummy.

I know KevMo is a side also but they kind of play the same. I know they're not the same person but I know marshy is usually the dominant side of any slot. It's really just a process of elimination for me right now that is leading me towards dislike, and I'm trying to think of substantial reasons to do so. I know that most of his actions seem to come off null, but like I said, marshy would win every game if you let him get away that. Nabe too. You have to question these things.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You're right though in saying that it's hard to remember a specific push Yolo has been getting behind with full commitment. He definitely hasn't managed to put his mark on this game. But again, this isn't necessarily a tell in this game because Day 1 was BSP modkill and Day 2 was a quicklynch. I remember Nabe saying I haven't really done a while lot of anything. I don't think that's a fair accusation considering the circumstances but I can also see where he's coming from. I don't think a lot of people have gotten too much of a chance to be as productive as they could've been had the game played out "normally" so I can't really blame Yolo for not being as determined as the names of his two hydra-heads imply.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I'm heading home. I'll be back later.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I know that most of his actions seem to come off null, but like I said, marshy would win every game if you let him get away that. Nabe too. You have to question these things.

I'm not letting him "get away with that" though. I'm not scared of reading and speaking up against people that other players don't have the balls to speak up against. I've gone against marshy before and I've gone against the likes of Ryker and EE and Tom. People that nobody would even think about questioning [where do you think my accusation that people are "tools" is coming from?].
It's simply that I read Yolo as null. Not because I can't read the slot or because I don't feel like dealing with them and the fact that people are tools but because everything they've done and said adds up to a big, fat null for me. Simple as that. I don't usuall read marshy - let alone KevMo - as null. I rarely ever do that. But in this game I happen to do it and it's not because it's impossible to read them but because the plus side and the minus side of their play so far completely outweigh each other. And the truth is that your posts about him haven't really changed anything about it [yet]. You simply interpret him a bit more critically which is OK given the current circumstances but it's not something I haven't taken into consideration before. It's just that I don't see it the way you do.

 

[Vinylic.]

What really sucks is that a Vinyl townflip [or any other townflip] will put is into lylo toMorrow assuming a 3-man mafia team. Add a potential indy and the anti-town factions will have the numerical advantage. We're ****ed if we lynch player X and then Vinyl gets modkilled alongside him.

sigh.

Forget the replacement, I'll cook something up today. It's not like I'm doing anything else but looking for jobs.

 

[Kantrip]

Fuck.

Rake's play in Luigi's was the exact same goddamn ****. I'm not sure if he plays intentionally like crap when he rolls a PR but this claim puts a lot of things with his play into place. The weird Ruy read switch and the low activity especially.

I need to reread and get a fresh perspective on this because I've been operating off of a faulty assumption for a while now

Unvote

 

[~ Gheb ~]

lol kantrip obvscum

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

What I mean by awkward with marshy is specifically something he did in the beginning of this phase. Me and Gheb were claiming our dislike of Potato and were voting him and marshy decided to hop on with us too. I was figuring he was ready to pull the HBC but instead he surprised me with his unvote. I think marshy is aware of his own limitations and he knows that there is so much of the #HBC excuse he can pull before people get suspicious of him. I feel like marshy is playing opportunistic right now, pushing slots that are getting the most **** while staying aloof about the ones who aren't much of a concern.

i can quote **** again **** yes

I don't see how someone playing so null--ultimately so safe--can be opportunistic. In terms of mafia, those two terms are basically polar opposites.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

@ #HBC | Nabe : The problem that I have with your read on me isn't the fact that I'm uninformed of your general inability to read me. I'm surprised that you labeled me town-lean with the tag of "benefit of the doubt". In the past, albeit I can't remember the game, you called me a scumread of yours with the tag of "I can never read Laundry as anything other than scum" or something along those lines.

That's exactly the point of giving you the benefit of the doubt. "You are always scummy to me" is the 'doubt', without which there can not be a 'benefit of the'.

Hell, I can't remember a game where you have townread me without having another head and even then, you made notes of how my presence in the slot interfered with your read. Seeing you label me "town" with the benefit of the doubt is weird. The thing that strikes me the most odd is that, despite admitting that you can't read me well, you never seek help with it. You never try to progress it. Despite seeing me play, you are still giving me the benefit of the doubt. That's off to me.

Not 'still'. This is the first time I've tried this, and it's the first time I've played with you solo in ages. My having a townread on you isn't remarkable, because it's not the product of an actual read. And how exactly would I go about seeking help?

This isn't the only read that I find particularly odd. I don't agree with your soup read, not because it's weird but because soup's play has improved over the course of the game and yet you mention that he's only gotten worse as your read wore on. I can understand your Gheb read to an extent but the last line of your last post addressed to me has me intrigued on who you would see him with as scum.

It's not that Soup has gotten worse over the game. It's that I was compelled to call him town, then lowered that read in reading his posts in contrast with other players. I don't agree that his play has improved over the course of the game, but it has certainly shifted between several styles of terrible.

At the moment, Ghebscum would fit with most players -- a fact which is irrelevant to the read, because the base arguments are different. My Gheb scumread is observational PoE.

ebwop: basically what i'm saying is that you admit to having trouble reading me, and that's okay, but you were seemingly dodging the question when asked why your read was there, it's different from how you handled reading me in the past, and you aren't seeking help or opinions from others when it comes to reading my slot.

Because I don't care about you. I have other reads I'm pursuing, and zero interest in you toDay.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

You're looking too far into the definitions I'm giving him. I'm stating about how I feel about his play in full, and what's bothering me. It's literally just me trying to piece things together right now. I didn't expect to consider this but I'm really buying Shen's claim.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Shen's claim ... I'm somewhat conflicted about. I particularly "like" his claim to have investigated Ryu N1 because that totally explains why I felt he was "hiding" behind RA earlier in the game and why he wouldn't really go out of his way to explain his behavior. But an inno result is a pretty good explanation. I do wonder though, why he'd play that way as cop. Like, we all know Rake doesn't really play that way but with Dietz in a hydra I'd expect a more ... tactical approach. But if nobody CCs I think we should drop Shen from our lynchpool [unless somebody can tell me a reason why we shouldn't].

Are you saying it's unlike Rake to play like this as a PR?

I feel like you're right in that Dietz should've had more impact in the slot's actions and approach but if they are town, I think they may just have had trouble keeping constant quality communication about the game, or Rake is purposely trying to limit Dietz's interaction so as to avoid putting himself in the limelight. It might explain the "liquid" behavior--the hydra is inefficient due to some internal disagreement in the slot or inability to operate on the same page, so it looks schizophrenic in terms of actions and thoughts.

This makes me more comfortable with my vote on Kantplay. But I'm also starting to see a "necessity" to get rid of Vinyl's slot soon since a replacement hasn't been announced yet and afaik Day phase lasts only for 3 more days. What really sucks is that a Vinyl townflip [or any other townflip] will put is into lylo toMorrow assuming a 3-man mafia team. Add a potential indy and the anti-town factions will have the numerical advantage. We're ****ed if we lynch player X and then Vinyl gets modkilled alongside him.

well it's simple

we kill the vinyl

 

[Kantrip]

Wow I never realized how much Circus was a shining beacon of hope for this game. He was such a voice of reason

lol kantrip obvscum

Go back to the poems please, I changed my mind I like it better

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

You're looking too far into the definitions I'm giving him. I'm stating about how I feel about his play in full, and what's bothering me. It's literally just me trying to piece things together right now. I didn't expect to consider this but I'm really buying Shen's claim.

As long as a CC doesn't exist, it's very possible. It seems like Kary went with a more simplistic game but I don't wanna dig much into that angle at all.

I understand why you're trying to do this though. When I get done with my various courses for the day, I'm going to explain my thought process on Yolo's slot. I've been kinda touching base on it for awhile but I feel it's something we need to address with the rest of today and toMorrow as well, providing we don't decide to lynch him or mafia (providing he's not) shoots him over the night for...reasons.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

That's exactly the point of giving you the benefit of the doubt. "You are always scummy to me" is the 'doubt', without which there can not be a 'benefit of the'.



Not 'still'. This is the first time I've tried this, and it's the first time I've played with you solo in ages. My having a townread on you isn't remarkable, because it's not the product of an actual read. And how exactly would I go about seeking help?

ask other players who have a better handle on reading a slot that you think are town to handle it, go from there.

It's not that Soup has gotten worse over the game. It's that I was compelled to call him town, then lowered that read in reading his posts in contrast with other players. I don't agree that his play has improved over the course of the game, but it has certainly shifted between several styles of terrible.

At the moment, Ghebscum would fit with most players -- a fact which is irrelevant to the read, because the base arguments are different. My Gheb scumread is observational PoE.

why do i just feel like there's a whole lotta nothin' coming from you then? Like, you keep posting comments and you keep talking in big long posts but I don't feel much in the way of an argument, nor a motive here. You've outlined scumreads (and townreads), you're completely capable of outlining why a person might think another is scum, yet you're not using any of that information to push a read. Why?

Because I don't care about you. I have other reads I'm pursuing, and zero interest in you toDay.

where the hell this came from, i have no idea but i quoted your post twice and it showed up both times

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Just noticed L-1. I'll just go over his head.

We are Cop.

Got a N1 inno on Ryu hence my unwavering insistence on his townhood , and a N2 Inno on Washed. ( unbelievably).
Dietz and i agreed that we'd have to bash ryu's play a little and question it when we did because we didn't want to draw attention to oursleves for sticking to the read during legitimately questionable play.

Gonna retype my post with this in mind.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

My dislike of YOLO makes more sense if Shen is town. I mentioned how marshy is a consistent player and is hard to get a beat on, but he's not perfect. There are some instances where I feel he is very awkward with his reads and I worry about him. His standards so far don't make sense to me, and I feel like he is playing towards his image than actually scumhunting. If anyone else besides marshy would be playing the way he is, he would be under much more scrutiny. He's always claiming towards dislike of slots but the actions he actually takes against them isn't really to be seen. There were instances of JTB/Pawn/BSP but really there's a different vibe than the one that I get thinking about marshy from Luigi's. I feel like marshy is playing it safe, and he's not taking risks. I recalled his really weird statement in the beginning where he openly mentioned where he was town. It still gives me a bad vibe to think about, and while it's typical of marshy to boast, it just feels out of place.

I looked aside this because I wanted to believe the way marshy was playing was typical town for him, but in light of recent events, I can't ignore the possibility that I'm being fooled.

Again, I'll fully comment on this once I'm done with classes for today. Just saying, I've seen it, and I somewhat feel where you're coming from but I don't wholly agree with it. I'm more along the same lines that Gheb is at.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

@ #HBC | Laundry
@ #HBC | ѕoup
@ Kantrip

That's it for you with regards to Shen toDay?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

also why did you cop me n1? :/

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Gonna retype my post with this in mind.

ruy pls