Tranquility - Game Over

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I'm going to be bringing up a lot of past stuff that I overlooked or something I want more out of. It's kind of my fault for not being on top of things in the first place.

Kantplay, your Ruy read essentially boils down to meta and how you think Ruy would play as scum compared to how he would as town. I want you to look aside of that meta and tell me about his play as of now. Earlier on D1, me, you, and Ruy got into a scuffle over how I was approaching him. You stated to me that you thought he was just trying to read me with his vote. If that's the case, what do you take of his switch onto BSP on #246? I understand how irrelevant this might seem being that phase is done and over with, but re-reading and re-looking into things when you aren't 100% certain on things is how you gain new perspective and how you tie up loose ends. Ruy you can answer this too. I'm sure you remember what you were thinking.

I feel like I'm not giving Koops enough credit on the side of the hydra. Upon re-reading I actually like the side of Koops and I think I might have been too soon to jump at Ruy earlier. Kantplay is right in the regard that I kept antagonizing people. I wasn't reading them, just trying to look for a way around it.

I've been reading D2 for the most part and the feeling that we're ignoring the scum and arguing with each other as townies is getting at me more and more, upon further reading, I feel like Kantplay's play has lined up a bit more, Ruy too. This could be trying to look at something differently but clearly where I'm looking right now just isn't the way to go. I still hold things I dislike but taking off the tunnel glasses for a moment I see things to like. I feel Kantplay's been generally consistent with his reads. A main focus I wanted to look into is looking at possible contradictions from him, but most of his play lines up with his actions. I still feel like I would be letting go of something I feel strongly about if I were to completely drop my scum-read.

I feel what I want to mention is that there's an eerie vibe between Kantplay/Ruy/Shen. Something people have noted before but upon re-read I've noticed it a bit more. Kantplay has always solidly town-read Ruy but Ruy has never placed his read other than wanting to like him for the most part.

Shen/Ruy have had this death bear 4 lyfe gig going on for the majority of D2. I don't feel like Ruy would do this to his partner especially in light with the majority of people disliking Shen. It's risky and I feel Ruy would play to the crowd rather than be stubborn about it. In that sense, how Kantplay was reading him earlier seems to line up.

However, It's so weird how Ruy handles Shen turning against him. He doesn't even acknowledge it at first, let alone care. It's off-putting to me, especially how he was so willing to jump down my throat at first? Maybe he thought Shen was still town and just wrong? I don't know. They both hard defend each other so much. I don't see an opposition besides Shen claiming dislike of something Ruy did but then they're just instantly buddies after that. Nothing is discussed. Ruy holds to his Shen read.

Shen is individually scummy. His whole play reeks. The way he handled me reeks. The way he handled ruy reeks. He makes pushes but doesn't follow through on them. He also reminds me of Rajam who hides behind his catch-up posts as scum.

I feel on my re-read I gained a clearer head, but the weird thing is that my reads didn't really change. I do not like Kantrip, but I feel if I want to get at Kantrip, I should get at Shen first. Ruy is not a priority but he's also claiming he wants shen as of late too.

Shen is the piece to the puzzle right now, and holds the most connections. I am sorry for the overly long post but I made this post up as I was reading. Consider my vote on him in spirit, but there is this agonizing feeling I get about the inactives.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The soupy as restless as ever is full of drive and endeavor
To prove to all the world that no mountain is too steep for him to crest
In a compulsive state of mind, unsure what he wants to find
He loses his sense of orientation and goes for yet another futile quest

But it's not he who has to seek and it's not his turn to speak!
And as sure as his critique against others is true he sure adds fuel to the fire!
This is not only his story to be told! Let silence be the gold
Souls can't be decrypted if you constantly confront them with raging desire

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

I hate RVS. I wanted to bust right out of it the chance I get. It's true it can be important in some aspects but most of the time it stagnates and hardly becomes useful. It's mostly the discussion that leads from it that is beneficial. I don't want to be the police of this thread but I would expect everyone to have an opinion of the interaction between me and Rake.

(D1, p2, 66)
You and Rake each have an unrelated conversation with the other. On Rake's side, awkwardly defensive because he doesn't know what you want or what you're getting at. On your side, frustrated because of the same. You awkwardly back down in turn (65), I assume because it became clear that this wasn't productive.

There's nothing valuable to be taken from this interaction (prior to 66 when the question was posed), and I'm not sure that pressing the point that people should react to this back-and-forth didn't stifle any workflow that might have resulted. (Kudos to Dietz expressing the same in 91.)

But when Dietz expresses Rake's same lack of understanding, you immediately start up again, which puts 65 out to pasture; you can't buy back an argument and then sell the same again. I agree with Dietz' assertion in 88 that 66 feels nervous, but I would add that the motivation for posting 66 as an explanation of your previous reasoning disappears, given you continuing to pursue the point with Dietz.

he most definitely would. theres nothing scummy about his push on you whatsoeverplease feel free to enlighten me as to why a scumsoup would feel the need to "find a safe way out of rvs". what the hell? soup is ENTERING the game INTENTIONALLY ruffling someones feathers in a way conducive to productive discussion over dropping a random vote. thats his method on getting out of rvs safely? sounds like that approach accomplishes the complete opposite of what youre postulating. i have a hard time believing you genuinely think something so left field would fly. thats not even mentioning that any decent scum wouldnt feel the need to exit rvs...cuz it happens every game regardless of an individual players efforts. **** outta hear with this horse**** reachy mcstretchpants

(D1, p3, 86)
The sentiment of having a scumread on Soup and/or pushing such is entirely absent from the post in question (71). Soup "looking for a way out of RVS" is just an echo of Soup's own post (66) where he said he was doing exactly that, but you take the insertion of the word "safe" (innocuous) and colour 71 as a wild, "out-of-left-field" reach on a scumspect. In reality, that post doesn't bear that reading at all; you've either misread it, or you're deliberately selling it as what it's not. Ultimately I think I read you as town, in part because these are both common approaches from you as town.


But it provides subtext that I don't appreciate to the discussion that continues on Shen. In the next post (87), Soup revisits the "safe way to get out of RVS" comment a second time (the first time being 77), this time with connotations similar to 86, as if as "yeah, what Marshy said". And then Potassium comes with a further tack (103-4) that Soup is obviously town and Shen is "mean" scum. The tone is jokey, but he reasserts the vote in 111. At this point in the thread, I can't tell whether these are earnest points of view given the excuse they've been given.

As p4 progresses I agree with some of marshy's independent points, like 122-3 about Rake and inactive policy, but I don't think those missteps are representative of alignment or agenda. I also agree with the BSP reasoning in 133.

In 138 I get for the first time a sense that Soup is really interested in what he's saying about Shen. For one, taking it to this length as scum would constitute too much.

Skimming now.

Whoah if Ryu is going to dismiss his interactions with Soup as "trolling" I am not okay with that. I was all on board with you getting reads out of him when he acted like he had something to hide but this page 12 stuff is not cool. Calm yourself jesus

Same goes for having us as his town read because "rake". I know I like to use gut on my hydra partner too but that way out of line to throw a full on town read on us for gut only.

(I know, I'm far behind)

His entrance was fine, but what I've been reading today is not.

He's only town here if he honestly believes what he's saying to Cream Team and means it on his Rake read, which I'm so far not convinced on. Otherwise he's faking his town meta hoping a hydra hides the spots and doing a poor job.

All of that subject to drastic change, especially once I get to talk to Rake, but I'm in no way okay with the slot anymore

Or should I say, the read I used to have

I'm unhappy with Shen after his read changing on Ryu here, which was the slot's first post right after a Pawn replacement stirred up the squo.


Town: marshy, Ryu
Townlean: Kev, Laundry, Rake
Null: Koops, Potato, Dietz
Scum: (least > most) Gheb, Soup, Potato, Vinyl
Would lynch: Shen, Soup, Vinyl

Four pages left.

 

[Shenanigenius]

Alright I'm caught up and I honestly don't know what to make of Kantrip vs Soup right now, but my Soup read is back to "idk".

Talk to me about Kantplay. Tell me your read on him.

Eh he's shifting around a lot but I don't want to make a judgement call on whether that's scum or not yet coming into this, especially after everything he shouted at you for. His logic doesn't make sense for following us around after scum reading us as people have pointed out, but everything he yelled at you back for seems to at least be genuine frustration.

Tell me how it's bull****. What's my scum intent here to get you lynched?

... are you ****ing serious with this? Go home soup you're drunk

@ Shenanigenius Why did you endorse a JTB at L-1 when Laundry "accidently" hammered him before he posted and Vinyl./Nabe posted nothing to read from yet? Did you even consider this or do you even care?

Because he was scummy, being useless, and not important, and I have double standards. We had our best choice and were ready to end the day in our eyes, and if you're not okay with that then I can't really say anything about it at this point in time. I don't know what Laundry did what Laundry did for or why you seem like you're implying we did, we had no involvement with his hammer malicious or not, though we technically weren't displeased that the lynch happend period even though the circumstances were sketchy

Okay. Let's say this one more time.

shen

-faking town meta of obtaining reads with jumpy votes, reaction tests, and questions. Tries to utilize these techniques early but doesn't show any change in stance from them
-static reads in general. a lack of showing intent to reassess anything. see soup read that never changed through multiple Days of content and new perspectives, and never even a mention of possibly reassessing
-extremely passive pushes. back to the soup read i was talking about. it was there but never pushed. in fact, they went for jtb during the jtb wagon even though soup was apparently a stronger read.
-speaking of jtb read, i saw nothing that made mention of their scumread, but they jumped on the wagon near the middle and sat on it to see it through to a lynch. if there is scum on the lynch, they are the prime example of what a scummy hop on a wagon looks like and would be my first choice

YOLO

-gunning entirely for inactives and then completely dropping them the next Day after one of them flips town. now this just makes no sense to me because slots that were such a focus dropped off the radar entirely after one of them flipped town. makes it look like YOLO had another agenda with trying to push a JTB lynch
-stark contrast from townmarshy play. cooperating, pulling punches, announcing L-1 so no one gets quicklynched. marshy never plays like this as town and it's disconcerting to see him put so much effort into his appearance rather than hardbodying the scum.
-"compromises" with another player in order to get a lynch he actually wants, but then he drops his end of the deal. See: deal with Gorf to lynch JTB and then shenan. As stated, he came into toDay (after Gorf's death, mind you) and voted me, ignoring shen. I see this as a possible connection to shen
-seems fine with going with any lynch

It's pretty easy to push us for our reads not changing when

A) No one asks us what our reads are publicly
and
B) Ignore when we actually do out to thread that our reads changed

We publicly had Soup as a shaky ok after his D2 presence, and it was clear we weren't on him anymore (unless I'm pulling a Gheb and think my reads were more pronounced than they were).


And as for Yolo, I see your point: but what's wrong with wanting to get rid of inactives in the situation we were in? Like it or not it was really what we needed to do. If we're supposed to be accommodating to you changing playstyles in this game then who are you to point fingers at Yolo for not doing what you stereotype them as when most of us agreed there were better things to be doing (or the lynch wouldn't have happened). So why the condemnation here "ya feel me"? (does his best yoloswag impression through text form)

[...] Kantplay is right in the regard that I kept antagonizing people. I wasn't reading them, just trying to look for a way around it. [...]

...For real dude?

 

[Shenanigenius]

(D1, p2, 66)
You and Rake each have an unrelated conversation with the other. On Rake's side, awkwardly defensive because he doesn't know what you want or what you're getting at. On your side, frustrated because of the same. You awkwardly back down in turn (65), I assume because it became clear that this wasn't productive.

There's nothing valuable to be taken from this interaction (prior to 66 when the question was posed), and I'm not sure that pressing the point that people should react to this back-and-forth didn't stifle any workflow that might have resulted. (Kudos to Dietz expressing the same in 91.)

But when Dietz expresses Rake's same lack of understanding, you immediately start up again, which puts 65 out to pasture; you can't buy back an argument and then sell the same again. I agree with Dietz' assertion in 88 that 66 feels nervous, but I would add that the motivation for posting 66 as an explanation of your previous reasoning disappears, given you continuing to pursue the point with Dietz.


(D1, p3, 86)
The sentiment of having a scumread on Soup and/or pushing such is entirely absent from the post in question (71). Soup "looking for a way out of RVS" is just an echo of Soup's own post (66) where he said he was doing exactly that, but you take the insertion of the word "safe" (innocuous) and colour 71 as a wild, "out-of-left-field" reach on a scumspect. In reality, that post doesn't bear that reading at all; you've either misread it, or you're deliberately selling it as what it's not. Ultimately I think I read you as town, in part because these are both common approaches from you as town.


But it provides subtext that I don't appreciate to the discussion that continues on Shen. In the next post (87), Soup revisits the "safe way to get out of RVS" comment a second time (the first time being 77), this time with connotations similar to 86, as if as "yeah, what Marshy said". And then Potassium comes with a further tack (103-4) that Soup is obviously town and Shen is "mean" scum. The tone is jokey, but he reasserts the vote in 111. At this point in the thread, I can't tell whether these are earnest points of view given the excuse they've been given.

As p4 progresses I agree with some of marshy's independent points, like 122-3 about Rake and inactive policy, but I don't think those missteps are representative of alignment or agenda. I also agree with the BSP reasoning in 133.

In 138 I get for the first time a sense that Soup is really interested in what he's saying about Shen. For one, taking it to this length as scum would constitute too much.

Skimming now.





I'm unhappy with Shen after his read changing on Ryu here, which was the slot's first post right after a Pawn replacement stirred up the squo.


Town: marshy, Ryu
Townlean: Kev, Laundry, Rake
Null: Koops, Potato, Dietz
Scum: (least > most) Gheb, Soup, Potato, Vinyl
Would lynch: Shen, Soup, Vinyl

Four pages left.

Questions: if you have Rake as townlean and Dietz as null, why are we on your lynch list over Gheb?

Why is questioning Ryu bad?

And what are your feelings on the JTB wagon and toDay's input? You only talked about very early game and our stance on Ryu in the meantime

 

[Shenanigenius]

Same goes for Potato. Why is your scum reads not reflected in your lynch pool?

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Something is really up with YOLO this game and I don't like it. Maybe he is just toning back his style or trying something new, but what is this?

He's pulling punches, announcing L-1 to avoid quicklynches or hammers without claims, and bending to others more than I've ever seen.

His scumreads have been all inactives which just doesn't make sense to me. Can he honestly believe the scumteam may possibly be comprised of every single playerslot who actively lurks and is inexperienced at the game in every game they're in? Or does he think there is just at least 1 scum between them?

I really don't like that slot.

This from nothing?

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Questions: if you have Rake as townlean and Dietz as null, why are we on your lynch list over Gheb?

Why is questioning Ryu bad?

And what are your feelings on the JTB wagon and toDay's input? You only talked about very early game and our stance on Ryu in the meantime

- This reflects an interest in post-flip reads on Soup/YOLO/Gheb, and was brought on at the same time that my read shifted. I'm not particularly comfortable with your slot being alive.

- You liked Ryu, a new player replaced in, and suddenly you disliked Ryu.

- JTB seemed to be for lack of anything else, and I think every player had a free pass voting on it. And as I said in my post, I haven't read toDay yet.

 

[Shenanigenius]

- You liked Ryu, a new player replaced in, and suddenly you disliked Ryu.

Is this the story you're going to stand by?

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Is this the story you're going to stand by?

I'm unhappy with Shen after his read changing on Ryu here, which was the slot's first post right after a Pawn replacement stirred up the squo.

 

[Shenanigenius]

You serious bro? I mean I gave you a chance to say "nah that's just the short version", but if you actually think that a replacement had anything to do with the Ryu questionings after you already quoted the relevant posts: that's weak.

I find it hard to believe you're generalizing like that.

 

[Shenanigenius]

- This reflects an interest in post-flip reads on Soup/YOLO/Gheb, and was brought on at the same time that my read shifted. I'm not particularly comfortable with your slot being alive.

What flips from your lynch pool of Vinyl/Soup/Us would tell you if Soup/Yolo/Gheb were or weren't scum.

I'm particularly interested in your reasoning on Vinyl.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

f
laundry and nabe should fight to the death

@ #HBC | Nabe

what do i dislike about laundry? i also see your manipulative buddying of me has begun

That he hammered despite you not wanting people to hammer. That when he caught up, he did it in a stream of single-quote responses, and seemingly came to a new read on Red over the course of those posts, and did it all in a self-righteous manner. That he's been speaking a lot but not doing a lot. That he's Pawn.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

you actually think that a replacement had anything to do with the Ryu questionings after you already quoted the relevant posts

If you're scum, yes, because the move was sudden, and because the reason you gave (hydra discog) is straight-up bull**** -- Dietz was here after Rake liked Ryu and had ages to say "actually I'm not a fan".

What flips from your lynch pool of Vinyl/Soup/Us would tell you if Soup/Yolo/Gheb were or weren't scum.

I'm particularly interested in your reasoning on Vinyl.

Is this a question?

 

[Shenanigenius]

If you're scum, yes, because the move was sudden, and because the reason you gave (hydra discog) is straight-up bull**** -- Dietz was here after Rake liked Ryu and had ages to say "actually I'm not a fan".


Is this a question?

So are we scum? You just said what you held only works if we are, but is also the method by which you scum-read us, yes? What you're saying isn't adding up to me and it feels like you're reaching for material.

Yes that's a question.

 

[Shenanigenius]

Dietz was here after Rake liked Ryu and had ages to say "actually I'm not a fan".

(that's a bold false statement to make by the way, personally speaking as the party in question. were you keeping track ?)

What's your read on Washed really like also? You seemed to point out his potential bad qualities pretty well when asked, but he's a town lean on your list among the other discrepancies in your list vs lynch pool already noted.

Vote: Nabe

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't like that vote.

 

[Shenanigenius]

Let us do our thing and you can like or dislike it when it's over.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

So are we scum? You just said what you held only works if we are, but is also the method by which you scum-read us, yes? What you're saying isn't adding up to me and it feels like you're reaching for material.

You're not particularly a scumread. I would lynch you, for the reasons I said.

Yes that's a question.

Then you need to rephrase, because it doesn't make any sense.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

(that's a bold false statement to make by the way, personally speaking as the party in question. were you keeping track ?)

What's your read on Washed really like also? You seemed to point out his potential bad qualities pretty well when asked, but he's a town lean on your list among the other discrepancies in your list vs lynch pool already noted.

Vote: Nabe

I don't have much ability to read Laundry. But I don't think my perception of events is wrong here, especially since I just read the whole thread today.

 

[Kantrip]

im not saying lynch an inactive today (tho i would LOVE to hardbody laundry and nabe back to back. i promise good things would come out of that) but to actually discuss **** today for the sake of getting something outta the question marks

Are they scum together or are you just pretty damn sure that one of the two of them are scum?

His buddying of Rake's slot is not even comparable to your slot.;

I don't really remember. I just saw him practically chainsaw defending me against soup and thought that was the same stuff he did for shenan against soup.

What do you make of Ruy now changing his townread on shenan?

 

[Kantrip]

Oh I;m stupid.

Buts idk this game is hard to read.

I don;t like you cause your all,"Let's talk abotu **** but I'm gonna hand wave anything you ask me"

And Shen cause what WL posted and his end of D2 play.

You two link, idk I need a flip in this game for me to make a team. My pool was more, who I think scum is in. Between you and Shen I think holds scum, but idk if both are scum.

I want Nabe and Vinylreplacement to do something, cause ****, I hate Soup cause he''s playing so derpy to the point I really don;t beleive he is this stupid in mafia.

WL, iget that Pawn was scummy but still, it's not that he is playing well, it;s that he is playing ina way I doubt is scum.

Kantrip is scum? doubt it, less in yp face, sure but that **** isn't scummy unless he is seriously lurking.

Nabe's slot is townier than Vinyls, vinyls not gonna read d1 though I now what happened is scummy. Joey didn't do anything scummy to me d1, Nabe still needs to post.

Gheb is fineish but I want an answer out of him.

if your asking me to make a team, i dont think I can at this point. I got 2 slots I gotta play reachy with off what little they posted, Kantrip who i doubt is scum at all, you who refuses to give a damn reason for why you are doing what you are doing, Shen who on a reread WL has a valid point, WL who himself hasn't done bad outside of the vote without checking, Gheb whoo is harder to read intent over actions cause his fake restriction, soup who is really just...I have no idea what the hell is with him this game.

Brewyu laying out some legit stuff. Like I don't see how people don't see the townread I have on this slot. When he lays out his thoughts like this it's so legit. Not cuz it's necessarily stuff I agree with but because it's just so genuine and townie.

laundry should be moved to null/scum. that hammer was whack and youve excused pawns poor play for it as well. you yourself admitted that his hammer gave you doubts so your failure to readjust and just keep him as town is lazy and trash play on your part. stop giving people passes

I forget everything about pawn's play. Wasn't he just inactive and then replaced out? Don't get me wrong by having Laundry in the town pile, he's the first townread I'd heavily look at if I was wrong on any of my scumreads, but I don't have any problems with his play outside of that hammer.

gheb should be null if youre really that paranoid right now. i dont see how you can legitimately find him a priority tho. i actually see why you think im scum and while youre wrong im not begging you to put me as town. i dont give a ****

I didn't say gheb was a priority, I'm just worried about him. I'd actually lynch nulls before I'd lynch him because he's contributing and helping town.

nabe can go to hell scum as well. i still think there was a scum on soup at the end of d1 and this slot looks like a good pick to be it

This is fair but I just don't have anything I'm drawing a read from on him. He liked a **** ton of my posts and appears to have posted some content so I'll get to that as I read and probably have an opinion.

but yeah potato. this is why i said scums gonna keep you for endgame. youre giving a free pass to the inactives by demanding a shen lynch right now and focusing in the wrong people. if you think both me and gheb are scum then youre overthinking things. me voting you at the beginning of this dayphase then backing off isnt scummy either and is just a testament to the fact that youre not thinking critically. this "let me post everything off the top of my head and nothing more" approach is why everyone (including our clear) has hated you. you are luigis mansion nabe/rake and a lynch waiting to happen. clearly you remember me promising shen to gorf but you dont remember me throwing you on my list to look at throughout the day? heres a ****ing PLOT TWIST kantplay. maybe i hopped the wagon cuz i know youre the type to scream when the heats on. i could only benefit by piling onto you as well cuz youve been this slot ive gone back and forth on for the most part. that said i (the marshy half) am not interested in lynching you right now and am curious to see what gheb thinks of your most recent posts

I think it's more likely one of you/Gheb with shenan and the third being one of Laundry/Nabe/Vinyl

 

[Kantrip]

I admit his efforts have been glaring, is he faking or really caring?
His recent input makes me more inclined to believe that he is actually being truthful
He can see where others are blind, in this hard and desperate time
He dares to question you and me, whereas others are sheep - helpless, naive, youthful

My expecations he has broken, for wise words he has truly spoken
But I still await a retort towards my accusation which remains unanswered yet
What he said toDay rings true, a lot of juicy substance to chew
And tell me, aren't these words about the soupy fellow the best you can get:

"This game has revolved around soup the whole time.

D1 was soup vs shenan
D2 was soup vs Ruy
D3 has been soup vs Me

He antagonizes as many people as possible and then gets all pissy and wonders why he's not enjoying mafia."

I like this post (probably biased because it says good things about me but trying to be objective here).

@Gheb: What accusation are you talking about?

 

[Kantrip]

^I want thoughts on the above from everyone.

I like it. I like how in the post I just quoted and the post you're telling me to give thoughts on, Gheb isn't afraid to call people out for having an unwarranted townread on him. He even likes me better now, after I have voiced a scumread on him. Because he likes that it's a fresh stance, and he thinks there isn't really a reason to have a townread on himself or YOLO. I am more okay with Gheb.

 

[YOLOSWAG]

That he hammered despite you not wanting people to hammer. That when he caught up, he did it in a stream of single-quote responses, and seemingly came to a new read on Red over the course of those posts, and did it all in a self-righteous manner. That he's been speaking a lot but not doing a lot. That he's Pawn.

how come you townread him?

 

[Kantrip]

It's a double-standard regardless, and a stupid argument. I'm tired of hearing a justification of a lynch being like they're playing like ****, it can come after we get to the facts of it's scummy.

Playing like **** =/= Scummy. Town can be ****. Scum can be ****. I'm not dealing with this trash anymore while I'm around.

I'm very conflicted however. Kantplay reads a lot better to me too. The interaction I had with him is meaningful but I still have some concerns. I feel he is giving Ruy far too much leniency and while I can understand that it's for his original read on him, it remains static. I also feel like his town-read on Washed is too preemptive and we were really to look back at the content washed posted, it would be nothing but a measly catch-up, and washed isn't an idiot as scum. If I'm going to trust washed I want to see him get his hands dirty. He hasn't done that yet and while I don't know what's going on in his personal life but I expect results soon.

I easily town-read Gheb and Yolo because I've never had to shake or yell at them for anything. They've each played their own game and contributed to the town at their own pace. It's very relaxing knowing that I don't have to do that and when I read, their stances and their votes are clear. Kantplay did not ring the same. His votes to me felt more calculated and just looking for a comfortable place to sit on a wagon. Some people might say the JTB Vote is different but I digress. This is essentially how I feel about his reads, who just seem like they aren't progressing. That is a main concern with him. I don't feel like he is scumhunting in that sense because I haven't seen the action taken to do so. He wants to tell me he is doing things but I don't know why he is playing the way the way he is if it isn't producing results. I always have to smack him around, and I don't really like doing that. He's very reactive this game, focused on responding on accusations against him or anything else that has his name mentioned. I don't like it. It's very possible I am giving Kantplay too much **** and not focusing on other slots. I'm very much aware of this.

Despite popular belief, slots like Vinyl. and Nabe DO have content. It's not the kind of content we want, but it's there. Joey has voted once or twice or put a stance out there. Vinyl. has posts, are they ****ty posts? Yes. He's getting replaced soon however which makes me very happy. Let's wait until we hear news about a replacement. This game needs to stop moving at Mach 5 and people need to just realize that we're not anywhere near deadline and we can talk about things. The last day was rushed. Scum took advantage of it. I'm damn certain scum voted JTB. The only 3 players not voting him were Gheb, Vinyl.,Ruy and Nabe. I want to believe that the team would sit there idly or not get anxious to remove a townie. JTB was such an easy wagon for any scum to get in. I genuinely believe this.

I really want people to talk to me about this more. I want people to look back at yesterday and look at what went wrong. Another main factor town lost Luigi's is because they failed to do this. They failed to put the pitchforks down and the thread kept moving at such a fast pace that it was so hard to keep up on previous results. Marshy and nearly everyone said in that Green Room, and if town had sat down for a moment and re-read instead of mindlessly bickering, they could have won that game.

Let's not make the same mistake.[/quote]
Isn't this synonymous with townreading them for playing well? Which is exactly what you're saying needs to stop?

You say the way I'm play isn't producing results, but I disagree. Did I ever say that playing more passively wasn't working for me? It's actually really helping for me to get unbiased reads. I always have trouble reading people and interactions that I'm involved with/in. People who are all up in my face typically get scumreads and people who like me get townreads, so I'm sitting back and getting reads without diving into everything that happens. But I realize that people need to be able to read me too, because that's half of mafia, so I'm trying now to give more content so people can see where I'm coming from.

This is good and I'm happy you took that away from Luigi's. I do think that scum is partly taking advantage of the thread being a bunch of people arguing and they are probably hanging back more. Shenan is a player who is doing this. They had more content early and now they're way more in the background. Laundry hasn't posted toDay at all (or at least nothing that I remember) and that also worries me because he seemed to have such strong opinions when he was catching up but then he randomly hammered JTB and now he has faded into the shadows. I think he's a slot I really need to reread.

 

[Kantrip]

Well that got ****ed up.

 

[Kantrip]

It's a double-standard regardless, and a stupid argument. I'm tired of hearing a justification of a lynch being like they're playing like ****, it can come after we get to the facts of it's scummy.

Playing like **** =/= Scummy. Town can be ****. Scum can be ****. I'm not dealing with this trash anymore while I'm around.

I'm very conflicted however. Kantplay reads a lot better to me too. The interaction I had with him is meaningful but I still have some concerns. I feel he is giving Ruy far too much leniency and while I can understand that it's for his original read on him, it remains static. I also feel like his town-read on Washed is too preemptive and we were really to look back at the content washed posted, it would be nothing but a measly catch-up, and washed isn't an idiot as scum. If I'm going to trust washed I want to see him get his hands dirty. He hasn't done that yet and while I don't know what's going on in his personal life but I expect results soon.

I easily town-read Gheb and Yolo because I've never had to shake or yell at them for anything. They've each played their own game and contributed to the town at their own pace. It's very relaxing knowing that I don't have to do that and when I read, their stances and their votes are clear. Kantplay did not ring the same. His votes to me felt more calculated and just looking for a comfortable place to sit on a wagon. Some people might say the JTB Vote is different but I digress. This is essentially how I feel about his reads, who just seem like they aren't progressing. That is a main concern with him. I don't feel like he is scumhunting in that sense because I haven't seen the action taken to do so. He wants to tell me he is doing things but I don't know why he is playing the way the way he is if it isn't producing results. I always have to smack him around, and I don't really like doing that. He's very reactive this game, focused on responding on accusations against him or anything else that has his name mentioned. I don't like it. It's very possible I am giving Kantplay too much **** and not focusing on other slots. I'm very much aware of this.

Despite popular belief, slots like Vinyl. and Nabe DO have content. It's not the kind of content we want, but it's there. Joey has voted once or twice or put a stance out there. Vinyl. has posts, are they ****ty posts? Yes. He's getting replaced soon however which makes me very happy. Let's wait until we hear news about a replacement. This game needs to stop moving at Mach 5 and people need to just realize that we're not anywhere near deadline and we can talk about things. The last day was rushed. Scum took advantage of it. I'm damn certain scum voted JTB. The only 3 players not voting him were Gheb, Vinyl.,Ruy and Nabe. I want to believe that the team would sit there idly or not get anxious to remove a townie. JTB was such an easy wagon for any scum to get in. I genuinely believe this.

I really want people to talk to me about this more. I want people to look back at yesterday and look at what went wrong. Another main factor town lost Luigi's is because they failed to do this. They failed to put the pitchforks down and the thread kept moving at such a fast pace that it was so hard to keep up on previous results. Marshy and nearly everyone said in that Green Room, and if town had sat down for a moment and re-read instead of mindlessly bickering, they could have won that game.

Let's not make the same mistake.

Isn't this synonymous with townreading them for playing well? Which is exactly what you're saying needs to stop?

You say the way I'm play isn't producing results, but I disagree. Did I ever say that playing more passively wasn't working for me? It's actually really helping for me to get unbiased reads. I always have trouble reading people and interactions that I'm involved with/in. People who are all up in my face typically get scumreads and people who like me get townreads, so I'm sitting back and getting reads without diving into everything that happens. But I realize that people need to be able to read me too, because that's half of mafia, so I'm trying now to give more content so people can see where I'm coming from.

This is good and I'm happy you took that away from Luigi's. I do think that scum is partly taking advantage of the thread being a bunch of people arguing and they are probably hanging back more. Shenan is a player who is doing this. They had more content early and now they're way more in the background. Laundry hasn't posted toDay at all (or at least nothing that I remember) and that also worries me because he seemed to have such strong opinions when he was catching up but then he randomly hammered JTB and now he has faded into the shadows. I think he's a slot I really need to reread.

 

[Kantrip]

Answer the question I gave you earlier. I asked you how you felt about a specific move Laundry made.

I don't remember how his JTB push went down. I'll answer this when I ISO him

 

[Kantrip]

I'm going to be bringing up a lot of past stuff that I overlooked or something I want more out of. It's kind of my fault for not being on top of things in the first place.

Kantplay, your Ruy read essentially boils down to meta and how you think Ruy would play as scum compared to how he would as town. I want you to look aside of that meta and tell me about his play as of now. Earlier on D1, me, you, and Ruy got into a scuffle over how I was approaching him. You stated to me that you thought he was just trying to read me with his vote. If that's the case, what do you take of his switch onto BSP on #246? I understand how irrelevant this might seem being that phase is done and over with, but re-reading and re-looking into things when you aren't 100% certain on things is how you gain new perspective and how you tie up loose ends. Ruy you can answer this too. I'm sure you remember what you were thinking.

I'll admit meta is a big part of the read but it's tried and true and consistent among Ruy games. But it's not just that at all. It's the fact that he was trying to read you. And the interaction he had with you after. It was a TvT interaction from what I could see and I still feel that way. It's his openness in sharing all his reads without being asked, and he's done so multiple times now. And then reading the reads, it's how honest and genuine his opinions seem, and there are times where you can see him being confused or unsure about things in his reads, something that is difficult to fake. It really, genuinely looks like he is doing his best to read into intent of players and actively pursue correct reads on them, and I don't see that changing on a reread. It continues to be true, even with his play now. I think he's off-base in places, and I find it strange that he defended me and shenan, but I believe that was because he didn't like your posts towards us and I can see him being a player who would get involved instead of letting the interaction play out.

I feel like I'm not giving Koops enough credit on the side of the hydra. Upon re-reading I actually like the side of Koops and I think I might have been too soon to jump at Ruy earlier. Kantplay is right in the regard that I kept antagonizing people. I wasn't reading them, just trying to look for a way around it.

Well I'm happy you could see that, but don't worry too much about it. I was also being a **** because I was having a bad day.

I've been reading D2 for the most part and the feeling that we're ignoring the scum and arguing with each other as townies is getting at me more and more, upon further reading, I feel like Kantplay's play has lined up a bit more, Ruy too. This could be trying to look at something differently but clearly where I'm looking right now just isn't the way to go. I still hold things I dislike but taking off the tunnel glasses for a moment I see things to like. I feel Kantplay's been generally consistent with his reads. A main focus I wanted to look into is looking at possible contradictions from him, but most of his play lines up with his actions. I still feel like I would be letting go of something I feel strongly about if I were to completely drop my scum-read.

I feel what I want to mention is that there's an eerie vibe between Kantplay/Ruy/Shen. Something people have noted before but upon re-read I've noticed it a bit more. Kantplay has always solidly town-read Ruy but Ruy has never placed his read other than wanting to like him for the most part.

This is something I do agree with. The behaviour between Ruy and me and between Ruy and shen has been really strange. I think it all links to the fact that the three of us have argued with you that I feel this way. Us 3 are the players that have bickered with you so we are all sort of connected in that way, and Ruy's strange behaviour when you were arguing with me/shen I think links to that.

Shen is individually scummy. His whole play reeks. The way he handled me reeks. The way he handled ruy reeks. He makes pushes but doesn't follow through on them. He also reminds me of Rajam who hides behind his catch-up posts as scum.

Yes. Thank you.

I feel on my re-read I gained a clearer head, but the weird thing is that my reads didn't really change. I do not like Kantrip, but I feel if I want to get at Kantrip, I should get at Shen first. Ruy is not a priority but he's also claiming he wants shen as of late too.

Shen is the piece to the puzzle right now, and holds the most connections. I am sorry for the overly long post but I made this post up as I was reading. Consider my vote on him in spirit, but there is this agonizing feeling I get about the inactives.

Is your dislike of me primarily because you dislike shen and think that we are connected, or is there still anything your reread didn't clear up?

 

[Kantrip]

Alright I'm caught up and I honestly don't know what to make of Kantrip vs Soup right now, but my Soup read is back to "idk".


Eh he's shifting around a lot but I don't want to make a judgement call on whether that's scum or not yet coming into this, especially after everything he shouted at you for. His logic doesn't make sense for following us around after scum reading us as people have pointed out, but everything he yelled at you back for seems to at least be genuine frustration.




... are you ****ing serious with this? Go home soup you're drunk



Because he was scummy, being useless, and not important, and I have double standards. We had our best choice and were ready to end the day in our eyes, and if you're not okay with that then I can't really say anything about it at this point in time. I don't know what Laundry did what Laundry did for or why you seem like you're implying we did, we had no involvement with his hammer malicious or not, though we technically weren't displeased that the lynch happend period even though the circumstances were sketchy



It's pretty easy to push us for our reads not changing when

A) No one asks us what our reads are publicly
and
B) Ignore when we actually do out to thread that our reads changed

We publicly had Soup as a shaky ok after his D2 presence, and it was clear we weren't on him anymore (unless I'm pulling a Gheb and think my reads were more pronounced than they were).


And as for Yolo, I see your point: but what's wrong with wanting to get rid of inactives in the situation we were in? Like it or not it was really what we needed to do. If we're supposed to be accommodating to you changing playstyles in this game then who are you to point fingers at Yolo for not doing what you stereotype them as when most of us agreed there were better things to be doing (or the lynch wouldn't have happened). So why the condemnation here "ya feel me"? (does his best yoloswag impression through text form)


...For real dude?

No.

This isn't gonna fly.

Rake boasts an impeccable ability to read me and he is a part of this hydra. It's been far enough in the game that you should have a solid read on me.

 

[YOLOSWAG]

(D1, p2, 66)
You and Rake each have an unrelated conversation with the other. On Rake's side, awkwardly defensive because he doesn't know what you want or what you're getting at. On your side, frustrated because of the same. You awkwardly back down in turn (65), I assume because it became clear that this wasn't productive.

There's nothing valuable to be taken from this interaction (prior to 66 when the question was posed), and I'm not sure that pressing the point that people should react to this back-and-forth didn't stifle any workflow that might have resulted. (Kudos to Dietz expressing the same in 91.)

But when Dietz expresses Rake's same lack of understanding, you immediately start up again, which puts 65 out to pasture; you can't buy back an argument and then sell the same again. I agree with Dietz' assertion in 88 that 66 feels nervous, but I would add that the motivation for posting 66 as an explanation of your previous reasoning disappears, given you continuing to pursue the point with Dietz.


(D1, p3, 86)
The sentiment of having a scumread on Soup and/or pushing such is entirely absent from the post in question (71). Soup "looking for a way out of RVS" is just an echo of Soup's own post (66) where he said he was doing exactly that, but you take the insertion of the word "safe" (innocuous) and colour 71 as a wild, "out-of-left-field" reach on a scumspect. In reality, that post doesn't bear that reading at all; you've either misread it, or you're deliberately selling it as what it's not. Ultimately I think I read you as town, in part because these are both common approaches from you as town.


But it provides subtext that I don't appreciate to the discussion that continues on Shen. In the next post (87), Soup revisits the "safe way to get out of RVS" comment a second time (the first time being 77), this time with connotations similar to 86, as if as "yeah, what Marshy said". And then Potassium comes with a further tack (103-4) that Soup is obviously town and Shen is "mean" scum. The tone is jokey, but he reasserts the vote in 111. At this point in the thread, I can't tell whether these are earnest points of view given the excuse they've been given.

As p4 progresses I agree with some of marshy's independent points, like 122-3 about Rake and inactive policy, but I don't think those missteps are representative of alignment or agenda. I also agree with the BSP reasoning in 133.

In 138 I get for the first time a sense that Soup is really interested in what he's saying about Shen. For one, taking it to this length as scum would constitute too much.

Skimming now.





I'm unhappy with Shen after his read changing on Ryu here, which was the slot's first post right after a Pawn replacement stirred up the squo.


Town: marshy, Ryu
Townlean: Kev, Laundry, Rake
Null: Koops, Potato, Dietz
Scum: (least > most) Gheb, Soup, Potato, Vinyl
Would lynch: Shen, Soup, Vinyl

Four pages left.

i miss no hetero

someone down to pull the trigger on vinyl. nice

you have potato in both null and scum. which is it? why is soup on the scumlist?

 

[Kantrip]

Gonna take a break and then come back later to read Nabe and Laundry as they are my last question marks (besides Vinyl but what are ya gonna do -shrug-)

 

[Shenanigenius]

You're not particularly a scumread. I would lynch you, for the reasons I said.


Then you need to rephrase, because it doesn't make any sense.

That's what the question was, what about those slots gives you info on flips. Dish gurl. You can't just say "I would lynch you but you're not a scum read" and not back that up.

 

[Shenanigenius]

i miss no hetero

someone down to pull the trigger on vinyl. nice

you have potato in both null and scum. which is it? why is soup on the scumlist?

More like why are people on the scum list that aren't in the lynch pool and vice versa is what I'm most interested in

 

[Shenanigenius]

I don't have much ability to read Laundry. But I don't think my perception of events is wrong here, especially since I just read the whole thread today.

That isn't really an answer to the question.

I'm asking you which side of the coin you were for and why, you gave two directions: one on your list, and one in your Marshy summary. I'd like to know which is official.

 

[Shenanigenius]

(the only reason I feel like I have to ask is we were on your townlean and null list but still in your lynch pool so maybe that isn't accurate)

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

how come you townread him?

But is what I said true in your eyes? It's true in mine, but it's also true that I can't read Laundry for ****, and not liking play =/= scum play.

i miss no hetero

someone down to pull the trigger on vinyl. nice

you have potato in both null and scum. which is it? why is soup on the scumlist?

oops

Yeah, I couldn't make up my mind on Potato. There have been periods where he's made logical and lucid posts, and there have been periods where he's **** words out of his mouth. The second of those have been few and far between, and only occur under pressure like his back-and-forth with Soup. So there's certainly an intentional change in playstyle, and I'd certainly have trouble putting him in a scumteam.

I had Soup on my town list for most of my read, but as his posts went past me they chipped away, and I found I kept lowering him on the totem pole. I have no reason to townread him.

 

[Kantrip]

Could you point out specifics with that soup scumread thing, Nabe?

You said his posts chipped away at your read, so I'm curious which posts bugged you and why.

 

[Shenanigenius]

No.

This isn't gonna fly.

Rake boasts an impeccable ability to read me and he is a part of this hydra. It's been far enough in the game that you should have a solid read on me.

Well I'm not him and he hasn't let me in on any fantastic Kantrip read. Your slot is a crapshoot, you say you're trying something new but it's personally hard to follow you through thread (and that last interaction was plain hard to read, as in difficult to stomach reading). If you put a gun to my head I'd guess town based on how convinced you seemed during that last argument but that guess isn't worth much.

At the very least you and Soup aren't both scum together.