Training

[PMKNG]

Hey guys, I have always felt a bit of the "outsider" here in the ness forums lol, i'm not that social etc. And I've been becoming very discouraged with my ness so I'd like to get some training with any of the other ness users. Cause lately I've been doing better with DK vs opponents then ness, but I don't want to give up on him.

And since my worst drawback is I can't play against other people, most of my "training" was against cpus which is HORRIBLE. So I thought I'd get to know some of the other ness users via online friendlies if possible, especially since I may be attending this months Gigs in orlando.


And due to levitas's suggestion I have decided to switch this to a "What we KNOW we need to improve on, but have a hard time doing."

 

[Man of Popsicle]

I'll play you later.
Don't expect too much though.

 

[Levitas]

Might I suggest a change in topic here? Instead of using this as a matchmaking thread (we DO actually have a friend code thread that can work like that), we could use this to discuss ways to train and I can overlook the fact that this kind of topic shouldn't be here.

Does that sound alright?

 

[Uffe]

I could try to help. Also, don't feel discouraged. I was doing extremely well with Toon Link one night, he's my secondary and I thought about switching mains, but I've gone too far with the character I've been using since Brawl was released and switching now would be a stupid idea since I'd have to start all over, learn a new metagame, learn new match ups and so on. Anyway, here's a tip. Always watch your opponent and not yourself. You know what you're going to do, so keep an eye on them.

 

[Gindler]

Sweet, going to gigs eh? You'll need alotta practice =)

 

[xoxokev]

lol @ levitas' suggestion

here's a quick list of some things Ness players should practice:
-Double Aerial Shuffle
-Rising Aerials
-Recovering with PKT2 from ANY angle
-Tailwhipping
-Up taunt between moves
-Incorporate nair & utilt into your game

 

[mobilisq]

-Up taunt between moves

easily the most important

 

[PMKNG]

Edited first post Levitas,
as for myself

I know what to do on paper but when it comes to pulling it off within 4-7 min matches i fail.
I usually instead of punishing a move will go for a "gtfo move" such as a jab or nair.


And yea Gindler, I might be going if N riddle has room in his car, my cousins gonna see if he can give us a ride w.e
But yea, This week is my finals week for my college classes and I'm already done with all my work, save for putting some things on posters. But I'd like to get some more training within the next 2 weeks (1 week off between next quarter)

 

[Levitas]

Thanks, I like to keep my moderating actions to a minimum

Nair and jab are actually excellent punishment moves, but if you do have more time, I guess other moves are justified. Usmash and uthrow being excellent options due to their potential followups.

If they're fat and you have 21 frames, PK fire.

 

[thesage]

I like the nair and utilt suggestions a lot. For some reason, I don't use nair at all even though I think it's a better move overall than fair. It's just easier to spam fair all day.

 

[xoxokev]

I also have trouble punishing... I know fsmash is probably a better option, but grabbing just feels so much more safer and reliable

 

[PMKNG]

Yes it is, I know its hard for me to use Nair cause I seem to need to "stay still" in the air instead of being able to move forward/backward while using it.
I think there was a button setup to be able to use nair more.

I know that when playing some of Fl's better players I tend to use fair much more then I know i should. It's just much easier to actually get hits off of it cause of its longer hitbox and disjointedNESS vs other moves cause they always power shield it.


Okay and I'm assuming that the thread Levitas meant was the Ness player finder correct? I'll post in there, I posted this topic to try to get the attention of more of the active players.

 

[Neon Ness]

Going to GIGABITS, eh? We must have a showdown. ...Though I'll prolly lose.

But yeah, don't ever train in actual fights against CPUs. They're not at all indicative of human styles. Too perfect at powershielding and too predictable airdodging, etc. It's worse than not practicing at all.

If you're feeling too discouraged with Ness, then... play someone else? If you have a secondary that feels more successful/fun, then give your Ness a break. After some time he'll get good again.

I'm actually liking side tilt and down tilt as far as get outta mah way moves recently. Side tilt angled downward really disrupts attacks well, for some reason, and it does decent damage. Neutral air works extremely well as an alternative when forward air gets predictable/stale...

Also, use PK Flash. A lot. I don't see enough people using it.

 

[PMKNG]

Haha my cousin is working on getting us rides there, if we can sure we'll try out dittos etc.
Though I'm pretty sure I'll be playing DK at least till I can get some really good ness training.

Now I've started to simply play against lvl 3 cpus just to try different combos, and I'll have to get better at adapting to different play styles.


I'm hoping to get some wifi matches in the next few days before hand though if at all possible. I'm about to add Uffe and Man of Popsicle to my brawl friend roster, that way I can maybe get some friendlies in beforehand.

 

[Levitas]

eww, don't play against cpus. play against people, and if you can't, watch vids of people playing and see what they're doing and why. cpus don't really help much if at all, and can make you worse by allowing you to develop bad habits.

 

[thesage]

lol@combos in brawl.

 

[Uffe]

Edited first post Levitas,
as for myself

I know what to do on paper but when it comes to pulling it off within 4-7 min matches i fail.
I usually instead of punishing a move will go for a "gtfo move" such as a jab or nair.

If you're having a difficult time pulling things off, play against other players competitively and use whatever you feel is necessary. I used to have a hard time using uair and dair, but I played against people and decided to give those a shot whenever it was necessary to use. Also, you say that you feel like nair is a stand still move. Do some double aerial shuffles. Those are good. And the best part is you can retreat these at any time.

Don't become to reliant on just fair when you're in the air. Ness has many options for him. But again, play for real. You know, friendlies. Play to learn and use attacks you normally wouldn't just so you get used to using them in actual matches. See what works. It makes things more interesting and gives you variety.

 

[PMKNG]

lol@combos in brawl.

lol ****.



Yea I've never really given DAS much try, though I know I can pull out the Dairs and uairs, just not against the pros here in sfl, But I do understand for sure the fact that cpus lead to bad habits, I used to not pay TOO much attention to it. I just always figured that another player would use their own twist but it definitely is not the same for some of the high "tier" characters and their cpu counterparts.

hell, you can't play affectively against a cpu ice climbers the same way you would an actual player. lol.

 

[thesage]

The only true Ness combos in brawl are pkt tailwhip to pkt head/pkt2 (i'm not sure), uair -> u-tilt (low percents), and pk flash to u-tilt/jab. Everything else is di-able out of or airdodgeable or sheildable (fair to jab is I one frame too slow to be a true combo...). Pk fire isn't even a true combo. This is what you first learn.

Next you learn to condition your opponent. Before you only had to condition them to hit them into a combo starter. Now you have to predict their di much more often and what their followup options are.

Third, reset your mind for every opponent you play. There is no set style since brawl basically has no safe moves (for most characters, Mk and Snake do have safe moves though). You always have to catch your opponent off of their guard.

I'm too tired to finish this post.

Fair can sheildstab if you whittle their shield enough...

Sh -> aerial -> dj -> aerial can work better than das and is easier to perform.

 

[PMKNG]

I know about fair shieldstabs, thats why I end up resorting to using it so much against other players in tourneys. I think its also I still get a bit nervous/pressure.


I just need to play more opponents, and get better at Adapting :X So hopefuly I can start getting some online friendlies, and maybe a few offline this week before I attend gigs, and get some more previous as well.

 

[Gindler]

Nair OOS is usully pretty good, that's how I usually counter since ness' grab range is meh at best.

 

[GotenOnNimbus]

Also, use PK Flash. A lot. I don't see enough people using it.

This.


A suggestion that I have to help you out is something that I inadvertently did to change up my game is to play certain characters to learn their playstyles.

This isn't to learn your matchups better (although it does help that) but to incorporate them into your own playstyle. For example...I also use Ganon and Jigglypuff. Both playstyles of those characters started to leak over into Ness. Because of Ganon, I play a better defensive and ground game, and became very good at powershielding since he has no projectile of his own. Sure, Ness doesn't have the reach that Ganon does, but his range is part of how you play him anyway. Ganon's also very, very slow, so every hit has to count or you're going to get punished hard because of laggy moves. With Jiggs, since she's light and up in the air most of the time, I got better at aerial maneuvering and hitting people at awkward angles (I hit people with Bair for example almost exclusively right in their face, or at their ankles on purpose).

Just a suggestion. I noticed an improvement after I started taking up habits from other characters, you might too.

 

[StarLight]

^ Great advice. Playing Pit has really helped my projectile/Down-B tactics with Ness, and Jiggz helped in the exact same way that Goten described. Marth/ICs for ground/grab game too. Pick your own characters of course, these're just the ones that I've noticed carry over to my Ness the most.

Besides, a good player should play every character at least a little bit, just so you know what your opponents will be throwing at you.

 

[mobilisq]

It's really easy if you play against people who think that your use of ness is the entire reason they cant beat you. In this case they prefer you just play random.

It's helped me in one regard, but in other respects it may have hindered the development of my ness game since I only get him when I'm lucky.

 

[jorge199494]

wow im in the exact some situation as u i felt like i should drop ness lol but i didnt i didnt give up on him and now i use lucas now for some reason and ness too

 

[Neon Ness]

I agree with Goten on the character skill overlap, using Mario has helped me perfect my spacing. And spam side tilt. Unfortunately there are some things Ness simply cannot do as efficiently as my other characters, like powershielding with .

 

[thesage]

Powersheild mk's up-b to get in a pkt2.

The recommendation to use pk flash made me want to gouge my eyes out. I almost did too.

 

[mobilisq]

I imagine the emphasis is more along the lines of mindgames and edgeguarding

im hoping he was hoping for people to make themselves a little less predictable

hopefully

 

[Neon Ness]

The recommendation to use pk flash made me want to gouge my eyes out. I almost did too.

Sage, you so crazy.

 

[Gaussis]

The recommendation to use pk flash made me want to gouge my eyes out. I almost did too.

Thesage felt a little strange...

Overlapping character patterns with each other is interesting. It really depends on each person's playstyle or so I've seen.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Probably doesn't help that I second falcon.

 

[PMKNG]

haha its cool, im hoping to play some of the other ness's secondaries as well, and if you're decent with captain falcon bring him on.

And I saw the pk flash comment, I didn't really want to say anything cause I didn't know how I felt about it.


Anyways, I should be able to be on for the next few nights, yesterday I got some practice in with my cousin. And its easiest to AIM me to see if I'm online or not, but PMing works too. Just let me know when you guys may be online :3

 

[PK-ow!]

thesage is just pouty 'cause

PK Flash > thesage



You can keep saying it's pointless, but we don't know that, so there's always a point to looking. I'm working now on making it run in a juggle-oriented game.

 

[Levitas]

PK flash is pointless though. It really is.

It comes out really late to hit weak, and comes out even later to hit a bit stronger. It doesn't move enough to chase opponents in their airdodges. It would KO, but you'll never hit with it.

You're better off utilting or uairing if you want a juggles.

It's not even the best option against a jiggs that just rested anymore.

 

[Cron_Ace]

easily the most important

HOW do you Up taunt during moves? I've always wanted to know. I've seen videos of players like Isai on YouTube doing this on the 64 version, but never on the Brawl version. Is there a way, because I just want to learn this.

Also, what's an aerial shuffle?

 

[Man of Popsicle]

if you're decent with captain falcon bring him on.

I'm pretty sure you mean "come on!"

 

[mobilisq]

HOW do you Up taunt during moves? I've always wanted to know. I've seen videos of players like Isai on YouTube doing this on the 64 version, but never on the Brawl version. Is there a way, because I just want to learn this.

Also, what's an aerial shuffle?

in 64 there is a way to cancel taunts to string moves together

this mention for brawl was a joke.

shuffle is the verbalization of SHFF which stands for short hop, fast fall

 

[Earthbound360]

There's a shuffle, theres a double aerial shuffle, but no such term as aerial shuffle. Which do u mean?

 

[CarVac]

In 64, you have to dashdance on a platform while taunting. When you hit the edge, you can cancel the taunt. I could only sorta do it. Show me your Show me your Show me your Show me your Show me your moves!

I think that they mean to alternate between attacking and saying "okay," which is terrible fun, especially while edgeguarding.

 

[PMKNG]

I'm pretty sure you mean "come on!"

lol.
I added you, uffe and kev to my friends roster, so I should be able to be on tomorrow.
Been having some practice irl the last few days and gf time also so haven't had much time to get on.
I'll post again/edit my post when the time comes.