Tourney Rankings + Tier Position

[Turbo Ether]

Meta Knights attacks being lagless is an exaggeration. He can be punished. His disjointed hitboxes are annoying, but not unstoppable. If you're trying to Bair wall a MK, you're playing the matchup wrong. Bair wall is an overrated strategy on this board, in general.

DDD is the hardest character to avoid being grabbed by thanks to his huge grab range and amazing spot dodge. At any percent one mistake means you get chain grabbed off the stage and potentially edge guarded. MK can't force you off the stage like DDD can. Stages with walkoffs and walls makes DDD even harder to deal with.

DDD is also substantially harder to kill than MK. You can actually kill MK with moves besides Dsmash.

 

[TKD]

I'd like to hear why. D3 is a big target, and he doesn't like Wolf's aerials. That at least is in your favor. You will get chain grabbed to death if you're not super careful, but I'd much rather face D3's chain grabs than an unstoppable storm of lagless disjointed hitboxes. And Meta can gimp your recovery at least as easily as the king can.

for the record, my comment about Wolf not caring was directed to TKD, who on the previous page claimed that Wolf does not care about MK and Snake which I think is completely absurd. Wolf has a tough time against both those characters but especially Metaknight.

People are also failing to acknowledge Game n Watch who is also a tough matchup for Wolf. Which leaves us with... all the top characters right now being a bad matchup. Which is why people say the situation is grim for Wolf in a tourney. It is. Doesn't mean he isn't tournament viable, just that he's never going to be tip top.

Metaknight has a tough time against Wolf too. Any follow-up or edgeguard attempts against Wolf from below (including Shuttle Loop) can be shined away very easily. Wolf's bair has more, or at least just as much range as MK's fair, so given that they both hit each other, Wolf is hit by the 1st swipe that has no knockback, while MK gets hit by...a bair.

Metaknight can't do much about well placed blasters either, which outprioritize every one of his moves. Wolf can KO from 100% via a near the edge dsmash, at 120% with a forward air, and sometimes at 120, maybe more, with an uptilt, which is rarely performed so it usually works.

As long as the Wolf player DIs well and recovers from a bit above stage level, he'll be fine, because again, the reflector's infinite priority on startup can shine away any of MK's edgeguard attempts. Oh, you can shine away a nado too, or if caught in it, you can shine out, if the tornado's knockback moment presents itself (it appears somewhere around the middle of the tornado).

Jabs work excellent on MK too. The best he can do is shield them, while the best the Wolf player can do is predict the times MK will shield. I press and hold A, so Wolf keeps jabbing if he misses. It works great against spotdodges.

I think you may be right about Snake, because of his survivability, but he's not worse than D3 or Falco.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Either Snake or ROB is the least troublesome top tier for Wolf imo.

 

[Ishiey]

MK is obviously not a good matchup, but he's just not particularly bad for Wolf since he ***** almost everyone. DDD and Falco, while they both have good matchups in general, do a lot better against wolf than they do against most other characters.

Snake is only tough if you don't get to gimp him. Dthrow by ledge so he's below it and jump down there with him and spike if you ever get the chance. If you hit he'll probably die (unless the person you're playing is really good with meteor cancelling), and if he tries to counter/dodge you down there he'll fall to his death anyways, or at best have to C4 himself.

Basically, I'm speaking in terms of counterpicking characters. Against MK, you are more or less on par (maybe slightly above) with the rest of the cast in the matchup. DDD and Falco, you are below; Snake, you are slightly above. Therefore you are more likely to need a counterpick for DDD and Falco, so they are worse to come across in a tourney since they usually require a huge skill gap between you and your opponent, or for you to have decent skill with a secondary that can counter them well. I'm probably going to start getting really redundant soon, so I'll stop now.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Snake and ROB are both neutral for Wolf

 

[Turbo Ether]

MK is obviously not a good matchup, but he's just not particularly bad for Wolf since he ***** almost everyone. DDD and Falco, while they both have good matchups in general, do a lot better against wolf than they do against most other characters.

Snake is only tough if you don't get to gimp him. Dthrow by ledge so he's below it and jump down there with him and spike if you ever get the chance. If you hit he'll probably die (unless the person you're playing is really good with meteor cancelling), and if he tries to counter/dodge you down there he'll fall to his death anyways, or at best have to C4 himself.

Basically, I'm speaking in terms of counterpicking characters. Against MK, you are more or less on par (maybe slightly above) with the rest of the cast in the matchup. DDD and Falco, you are below; Snake, you are slightly above. Therefore you are more likely to need a counterpick for DDD and Falco, so they are worse to come across in a tourney since they usually require a huge skill gap between you and your opponent, or for you to have decent skill with a secondary that can counter them well. I'm probably going to start getting really redundant soon, so I'll stop now.

I agree with this assessment. Falco and DDD are really the characters you should consider having a secondary for. Other than that, you can get away with playing Wolf against the rest of the cast.

 

[teekay]

Metaknight has a tough time against Wolf too. Any follow-up or edgeguard attempts against Wolf from below (including Shuttle Loop) can be shined away very easily. Wolf's bair has more, or at least just as much range as MK's fair, so given that they both hit each other, Wolf is hit by the 1st swipe that has no knockback, while MK gets hit by...a bair.

I think you are not really understanding the nature of hitboxes. Meta's disjointed hitbox on his sword means he can hit through a backair every time. He doesn't have to out range you, he just has to hit any part of you including the tip of your foot. As long as he spaces properly you will never go toe to toe with him in the air, ever.

Metaknight can't do much about well placed blasters either, which outprioritize every one of his moves.

Well of course they "outprioritize" his moves, they are a projectile. The only really notable case is the tornado, which yes, blasters help against quite a bit. Unfortunately good Metas do not just spam this move and his speed and multiple jumps means it's impossible to keep him at bay with blasters. I agree the blaster is one of Wolf's best tools against him, but it's not nearly enough.

Wolf can KO from 100% via a near the edge dsmash, at 120% with a forward air, and sometimes at 120, maybe more, with an uptilt, which is rarely performed so it usually works.

Sure, but getting KOs isn't the problem. Your dsmash is good and all, but his is faster and has almost no lag. Uptilt is almost impossible to KO a good meta with, its range is way too small. Fair is OK, but again you will always get beaten by one of Meta's aerials so you pretty much have to use it against him when he makes a mistake.

As long as the Wolf player DIs well and recovers from a bit above stage level, he'll be fine, because again, the reflector's infinite priority on startup can shine away any of MK's edgeguard attempts. Oh, you can shine away a nado too, or if caught in it, you can shine out, if the tornado's knockback moment presents itself (it appears somewhere around the middle of the tornado).

I don't know why people think the shine is this catch all defense. It is certainly a handy move for this sort of thing, but your biggest problem is going to be a Meta who is gimping you when you're trying to use side or up B. If you stop in these situations to use the reflector, you'll just fall out of the sweetspot zone you need and then you will either miss the ledge, or land with a lot of lag and get hit again.

I am a big proponent of Wolf's recovery; I don't think it's nearly as bad as people say it is, and there are tons of ways he can mix it up to avoid an edge guarder. But Metaknight still has an easier time than most people screwing him up. It's not something you can dismiss because of the reflector. It's just not that easy.

Jabs work excellent on MK too. The best he can do is shield them, while the best the Wolf player can do is predict the times MK will shield. I press and hold A, so Wolf keeps jabbing if he misses. It works great against spotdodges.

I think you may be right about Snake, because of his survivability, but he's not worse than D3 or Falco.

You say shielding is "the best he can do" as if sheilding is a bad thing. If he shields your AAA combo he will then retalliate with any number of lightning fast attacks which you won't be able to avoid, and then he will have you right where he wants you: knocked back and in perfect shape for him to start rushing you down with lagless multihit sword swipes. Which is exactly where you don't want to be. You have to be just as careful about this with your AAA combo as you do with any other attack.

He has no reason to spotdodge this move. In fact MK rarely has any reason to spot dodge Wolf at all. And anyway these are not his only options. One option he will take advantage of is just attacking right through your AAA combo. He can do this easily since he attacks faster and outprioritizes you.

Wolf simply does not have any moves that just flat out BEAT Metaknight's techniques, so in order to win, he has to play extremely carefully and essentially wait for MK to make mistakes that he can punish.

 

[Turbo Ether]

This is lame. I typed a fairly detailed response to teekay's points regarding Wolf vs MK, but lost the post because the board decided to log me out for some reason. I'll either wait until he pops up in the character thread or just drop the subject.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

teekay's right anyways...

 

[Kenrawr]

MK is obviously not a good matchup, but he's just not particularly bad for Wolf since he ***** almost everyone. DDD and Falco, while they both have good matchups in general, do a lot better against wolf than they do against most other characters.

Snake is only tough if you don't get to gimp him. Dthrow by ledge so he's below it and jump down there with him and spike if you ever get the chance. If you hit he'll probably die (unless the person you're playing is really good with meteor cancelling), and if he tries to counter/dodge you down there he'll fall to his death anyways, or at best have to C4 himself.

Basically, I'm speaking in terms of counterpicking characters. Against MK, you are more or less on par (maybe slightly above) with the rest of the cast in the matchup. DDD and Falco, you are below; Snake, you are slightly above. Therefore you are more likely to need a counterpick for DDD and Falco, so they are worse to come across in a tourney since they usually require a huge skill gap between you and your opponent, or for you to have decent skill with a secondary that can counter them well. I'm probably going to start getting really redundant soon, so I'll stop now.

Just because he ***** most of the cast doesn't mean he ***** Wolf any less. Your response didn't have any points as to why MK/DDD would have more of an edge in this match-up. =[

Snake and ROB are both neutral for Wolf

I wouldn't go that far. ROB's aerials seem to ****. ROB's little fair bullying ftl =[
Snake seems to have more of a favor for the usual Snake reasons imo (tilts, finishing options, etc.).

 

[teekay]

That, and Wolf traditionally has trouble finishing. Since Snake is basically the hardest character to KO in the game, it can get pretty frustrating, to say the least. His up tilt can KO you at absurdly low percentages, and you will usually have to get him in the 200 region to reliably KO him. It's utter BS.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nonono. Snake is neutral. His mobility sucks @$$, if he can't use his mortar slide, thanks to your blaster and his aerial mobility is even worse. He can't outcamp your Shine so he has to approach somehow, which isn't easy for him. Other than that, finishing isn't that hard. A dthrow at the ledge sets him up perfectly for a spike...and Snakes recovery just begs to be spiked.

ROB is neutral, merely by my personal experience but he'll come in the mtch-up thread sooner or later anyways...

 

[Ishiey]

Just because he ***** most of the cast doesn't mean he ***** Wolf any less. Your response didn't have any points as to why MK/DDD would have more of an edge in this match-up. =[

Way to call me out on this, K-9 Well, I'll list the particular advantages that each character has against wolf specifically and the 'disadvantages' they have against wolf specifically (specifically means something more along the lines of not-the-majority-of-other-characters)

MK
+We have a laser. That means camping works
+We have better air mobility, so we can try to abuse that.
We weigh more, so we're tougher to kill but easier to juggle and gimp.
- Nothing else works on MK, he has disjointed hitboxes (with very nice range) while we don't have any (besides blaster).
- MK likes gimping, and can do it fairly easily since Wolf has nothing to guard against it.

DDD
+We... yeah. What DO we have here? Blaster maybe, makes camping somewhat debatable.
He's big and fat, so you can 'combo' him easier but he doesn't die too quicly.
- Chaingrab.
- Getting off stage in low % means you'll be getting smacked with aerials until you're unable to recover, unless you're really good at getting out of that.
- Also has many disjointed hitboxes, but not to the extent of MK.

I mean, obviously neither of these is a good matchup, but most characters have the same disadvantages against MK. Against DDD, our weight makes it easy for them to carry us offstage, and then there's the somewhat exclusive CG too.

 

[Kenrawr]

Nonono. Snake is neutral. His mobility sucks @$$, if he can't use his mortar slide, thanks to your blaster and his aerial mobility is even worse. He can't outcamp your Shine so he has to approach somehow, which isn't easy for him. Other than that, finishing isn't that hard. A dthrow at the ledge sets him up perfectly for a spike...and Snakes recovery just begs to be spiked.

ROB is neutral, merely by my personal experience but he'll come in the mtch-up thread sooner or later anyways...

What ever happened to shielding blasters... seriously is it that hard people? It's useful for pressuring but not to the extent of it making you have a complete edge in the game.
The spike can be useful but if you miss it could set you up for a potential punishment since the Snake would already have recovered by the time you were trying to get back from the missed spike.

ROB? Oh thaaaaaaaat's why he's neutral.

Way to call me out on this, K-9 Well, I'll list the particular advantages that each character has against wolf specifically and the 'disadvantages' they have against wolf specifically (specifically means something more along the lines of not-the-majority-of-other-characters)

MK
+We have a laser. That means camping works
+We have better air mobility, so we can try to abuse that.
We weigh more, so we're tougher to kill but easier to juggle and gimp.
- Nothing else works on MK, he has disjointed hitboxes (with very nice range) while we don't have any (besides blaster).
- MK likes gimping, and can do it fairly easily since Wolf has nothing to guard against it.

DDD
+We... yeah. What DO we have here? Blaster maybe, makes camping somewhat debatable.
He's big and fat, so you can 'combo' him easier but he doesn't die too quicly.
- Chaingrab.
- Getting off stage in low % means you'll be getting smacked with aerials until you're unable to recover, unless you're really good at getting out of that.
- Also has many disjointed hitboxes, but not to the extent of MK.

I mean, obviously neither of these is a good matchup, but most characters have the same disadvantages against MK. Against DDD, our weight makes it easy for them to carry us offstage, and then there's the somewhat exclusive CG too.

Debating is making me tired :< Why do I keep getting myself into these things. lol
I think that the Wolf camp game is overrated against MK. MK is quick and can fly with many aerial approaches. I don't think a laser would make it too difficult for him to attack you.
And how would Wolf's air game give you an advantage over MK's? Wolf has...bair and maybe some fairs/nairs/uairs? All of MK's aerials work well against Wolf. (uair juggles, fair punishers/spacing, dair gimping/attacking, nair knockback/punishing)
And Wolf hard to kill for an MK? Dsmash/gimping makes Wolf a pretty average KO imo.

And again, how does MK ****** other characters make him **** Wolf less?

 

[Ishiey]

Debating is making me tired :< Why do I keep getting myself into these things. lol
I think that the Wolf camp game is overrated against MK. MK is quick and can fly with many aerial approaches. I don't think a laser would make it too difficult for him to attack you.
And how would Wolf's air game give you an advantage over MK's? Wolf has...bair and maybe some fairs/nairs/uairs? All of MK's aerials work well against Wolf. (uair juggles, fair punishers/spacing, dair gimping/attacking, nair knockback/punishing)
And Wolf hard to kill for an MK? Dsmash/gimping makes Wolf a pretty average KO imo.

And again, how does MK ****** other characters make him **** Wolf less?

Lol time for more debate . Well, the camping doesn't really work against MK, but its definitely better than nothing, and it takes out the tornado at a distance (shine does the job at close quarters). He can still attack/approach, but it SLIGHTLY limits his options.

I said air mobility btw, wolf gets ***** in the air by MK (like almost everyone else ) but he has the ability to weave in and out when airborne better than MK, so... basically if you're both in the air, you have the ability to run away (once again, not much but at least its better than the alternative of getting hit).

The hard to kill thing is based on straight kills, so basically MK will want to be getting gimps. It 'balances out' because the heavy weight makes it easier for him to take us offstage in a constant flurry of aerials and keep us out, along with juggling. I mean, against MK I'd rather have the advantage of being able to last longer and work on avoiding gimps while sucking up damage instead of getting owned by a near unavoidable dsmash at 100% or something like that.

I never said wolf gets ***** LESS (I think >.> ). The point I'm trying to make here is that wolf gets ***** just as much as the average character against MK, wheras he gets ***** more than the average character against DDD (and Falco) so it would be wiser to get a counterpick for DDD and Falco as opposed to one for MK, since wolf is more or less at the same level as everyone else against MK, so unless you're really good with snake, yoshi, MK, or another 'potential' MK counter you might as well go with wolf and take your chances. Sorry for the run-on sentence ._.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

10chars

What ever happened to shielding blasters... seriously is it that hard people? It's useful for pressuring but not to the extent of it making you have a complete edge in the game.

When I did I say that? I just said, that it completely shuts down Snakes mobility, as it stops the mortar slide. I didn't mention any "pressuring" BS.

The spike can be useful but if you miss it could set you up for a potential punishment since the Snake would already have recovered by the time you were trying to get back from the missed spike.

Don't miss -_-

ROB? Oh thaaaaaaaat's why he's neutral.

Pretty much...any objections?

10chars

 

[teekay]

Nonono. Snake is neutral. His mobility sucks @$$, if he can't use his mortar slide, thanks to your blaster and his aerial mobility is even worse. He can't outcamp your Shine so he has to approach somehow, which isn't easy for him. Other than that, finishing isn't that hard. A dthrow at the ledge sets him up perfectly for a spike...and Snakes recovery just begs to be spiked.

If a down throw to spike at the edge is your one example of a good way to KO snake it's not really much of an argument. You'll have to just kind of hope you get that chance and then hope that your opponent hasn't practiced meteor canceling... and that he doesn't just air dodge your spike. In general I don't think the spike can ever be relied upon for KOs. If you get the chance, great, but you need something you can trust.

Germ's matches against DSF are a good resource to check for why Snake is an uphill battle for Wolf. He never dies below 170. He can go toe to toe with Wolf in close combat because of his amazing AAA combo and tilts. He doesn't have to beat you in the air, because he can stay on the ground where he is able to KO you WAY sooner than you can stop him. Not to mention that he can edge guard you which you can hardly do to him at all.

You say he has a hard time approaching. Why? The only thing I can think is that you mean blaster spam, which won't stop anyone from getting close to you if they want. Plus, if you're blaster spamming, he actually will out camp you because you can't really sit there shining and blaster spam at the same time.

I don't think Wolf is at a HUGE disadvantage here, but I'd definitely say it's slightly in Snake's favor. He has so much less work to do to get KOs.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

*Sigh*...comments in red

If a down throw to spike at the edge is your one example of a good way to KO snake it's not really much of an argument. You'll have to just kind of hope you get that chance and then hope that your opponent hasn't practiced meteor canceling...

Meteor cancel leads to further spikes

and that he doesn't just air dodge your spike.

airdodging below the edge is very risky, a mine sves him but deals dmg as well

In general I don't think the spike can ever be relied upon for KOs. If you get the chance, great, but you need something you can trust.

Snakes recovery provides these chances...

Germ's matches against DSF are a good resource to check for why Snake is an uphill battle for Wolf. He never dies below 170.

I know these battles pretty much by heart. How many times did GERM even try to spike Snake? Not a single time. Besides, I think, that DSF is a somewhat better player than GERM...

He can go toe to toe with Wolf in close combat because of his amazing AAA combo and tilts. He doesn't have to beat you in the air, because he can stay on the ground where he is able to KO you WAY sooner than you can stop him. Not to mention that he can edge guard you which you can hardly do to him at all.

Spike =/= Edgeguarding???

You say he has a hard time approaching. Why? The only thing I can think is that you mean blaster spam, which won't stop anyone from getting close to you if they want. Plus, if you're blaster spamming, he actually will out camp you because you can't really sit there shining and blaster spam at the same time.

Shine stops camping. Snake is slow if he can't use his dash attack or the mortar slide - blaster intrrupts these. Blaster is never used for camping but merely to either force or destroy the approach (depending on your opponents)

I don't think Wolf is at a HUGE disadvantage here, but I'd definitely say it's slightly in Snake's favor. He has so much less work to do to get KOs.

OK, maybe 45:55 for Snake or something like that. You're quite right after all...

10chars

 

[Patinator]

*Sigh*...comments in red

Hmm, I find spiking effective... :/ Maybe it's because I've only played CPU's, though.

Oh, and your comments should be in gray, y'know...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Oh, and your comments should be in gray, y'know...

Yessir

10chars

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Wolf is more likely to go lower than he is to go higher. Unless if Snake somehow starts being the most commonly used tourney character in the future, which is not going to happen.

Yeah, Wolf has the advantage on Snake (Teh_Spammerer says so lol), but I don't really think he's all that good. His lasers in other matchups are not particularly hard to avoid, and he lacks safe kill moves, aside from maybe an undiminished D-smash. Plus he's easy to juggle to 40% with Up-tilts in many matchups and his recovery is just awful, which matters a lot in a game where almost everyone can get back from any hit.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

His lasers are not for camping JFYI...

 

[teekay]

I know these battles pretty much by heart. How many times did GERM even try to spike Snake? Not a single time. Besides, I think, that DSF is a somewhat better player than GERM...

Let me just ask you this then.

Honestly, how many pro matches have you EVER seen where a Wolf player used his spike? I don't mean successfully, I mean even tried to use it?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How many pro Wolfs are out there at all?

And how many of those, aside from Germ have fought Snake?

 

[chronoize]

How many pro Wolfs are out there at all?

And how many of those, aside from Germ have fought Snake?

i wonder this too, in the wolf community we only hear about germ in the tournament scene doing well.

i just came form a tournament in houston and got 25 out of 118. not the greatest but we need to get more tournament results for wolf in.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

There are 2 other good Wolfs I can think of - Candy and Omniswell (compare: 3 Wolves vs. the countless GaWs in Midwest or all the Snakes and MKs...any notable differnece?)

 

[teekay]

Nieither of them use the spike, and neither did Lucien or Yahyuzz when they played Wolf. It's not a reliable kill move. There may be situations where you can use it but you can't just write off Wolf's difficulty KOing the hardest character in the game to KO on account this move.

In fact, here's a better question. If it is so incredibly easy to spike Snake out of his recovery, why doesn't every character do it? It's not like Wolf is the only character with a meteor smash. And yet everyone has a hard time killing Snake.

P.S. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yi-4t8bl9eM

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Quote me, whenever I used the words "incredibly easy"...

 

[Captain Sa10]

No one has ever seen my wolf play mostly because I dont attended major tournies here in Louisiana. But Im pretty sure im good when I can hold position with #7 in my state, and still give everyone above #7 a run for there money. I'll try and attend some major tournies here since I've heard that other wolf players in my state suck ***, and I'd probably have to teach them a thing or too. Either way, I'll try and get you guys some tournament results form LA for wolf players.

 

[ArcPoint]

Yeah, there really aren't too many Pro Wolf players, Candy doesn't even main Wolf.

But there are those few that manage to do well with him, I honestly think that Wolf has a freakin' high learning curve, he is in no way a pick and play character. I mean there are very few people that have seen his potential and take it to high level play. The Germ and Omniswell have done well in their respective areas, and so have Candy and Chinesah, but neither of the latter two main Wolf.

I honestly see Wolf either going a little bit higher or staying where he's at. For the latter option, people will just continue on, and there will always be those select few who place well with him, or people start noticing how well he does and consider how Wolf plays, and then proceed to continue developing his metagame past the other characters. Just my two cents.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Here's a hint for Wolf players: You're attacks don't have to look like a sword slash in order to be disjointed. *coughfairamongothermovesandthiswasactuallypointedoutmonthsagocough*

 

[Ishiey]

Isn't wolf's claw disjointed in general? Or am I just a complete idiot? I'm leaning towards the second one, but seriously.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Well, first hit of jab can clash with Marth's Fsmash if that means anything.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It doesn't necesarily mean something about disjointed hitboxes but rather about priority

 

[teekay]

almost anything can clash if you time it right.