Tournament Melee: How Sakurai will change how we play the game

[AlcyoNite]

Actually in mario kart DD you can turn items off. Also item-on competitive play is really lame. It consists of stalling and trying to be behind the other player a little and stocking up on sweet items (since you are deliberately in 2nd place to get them) and then using them on the last lap.

meh...thanks for teh advice

 

[the grim lizard]

Let me say this again, and you can quote me if I'm wrong when it comes out:
"People who are good at melee will be good at brawl, and have a significant advantage over anyone who was not a part of the competitive smash scene before brawl."

You seem to refuse to acknowledge all the people who would be angered by the lack of skill transferring over. We have worked hard to be as good as we are, what right do you have to be spiteful and try to claim it should be on an even page for Brawl?

I think I'm being misunderstood a bit. I'll try to paraphrase. Basically, I understand where most people are coming from, and I agree in some respects. To sum it up as best I can, I want Brawl to be a different game than Melee. And I'm absolutely confident that it will be.

I realize that playing one helps you with a later version; I'm no pro by any means, but it actually helps me, too. In my posts, I was just trying to brainstorm possible ways they could "fix"--or better yet--improve the game as they transfer from Melee to Brawl. So, sorry if the ideas are the best. This is why I'm not a game developer. Basically, I 100% trust in Sakurai to deliver on this.

edit: Oh, but to go back to an earlier point, I just don't want there to be any inherently "bad" or inherently "good" characters...or as close to the absence of that as we can get.

 

[ThePROMINENCE]

The whole point of an optins menu is for players to customize the game how they see fit. The game designer can't make the games options how he would want them as if he was making the game for himself. They are made to apeal to many different people. They are given the "option" of customizing the game how they want to play it. Super Smash Bros. games are made to apeal to many different people. Those who want to play the game for fun and those who want to compete. The control design fo the game even shows us this. Its easy to pick up and play, but requires an extreme amount of effort to master.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Different people are going to have different opinions on what is fun. One thing that I like about Smash is the fact that it's a game that can appeal to people that just want to screw around, and people that want serious matches alike. I have more fun with the serious matches (no items, flat stages, etc). But I think it's great that the game can be played with items on stages with lots of distractions as well. I don't think Sakurai will try to make the game unplayable for tournaments. Why? He won't make as much money that way. The fact that both Smash games are still played today gives more incentive for him to make them both tournament playable and random, with selectable options.

And while I'll probably end up playing Brawl for serious matches in the long run, of course I'm going to screw around with items and free for alls too when the game first is released. The good thing about free for alls with items and crap stages is that it's more fun for me to play that way against people who suck badly enough at the game, and in the beginning it's good to allow me to get a feel for each character. Playing random characters on random stages will allow me to get an idea of what each move does, how far each character flies with each attack, falling speed, weight, etc. and will be more entertaining for this purpose in the beginning than training mode. One thing I've noticed about some people in Melee is the fact that a lot of people jumped right into wanting to get good at the game right away, so they never really got the chance to screw around, and therefore didn't get a feel for the characters in the same way.

There is more money in keeping the game customizable anyway. I highly doubt that will change.

 

[Takeshi245]

Different people are going to have different opinions on what is fun. One thing that I like about Smash is the fact that it's a game that can appeal to people that just want to screw around, and people that want serious matches alike. I have more fun with the serious matches (no items, flat stages, etc). But I think it's great that the game can be played with items on stages with lots of distractions as well. I don't think Sakurai will try to make the game unplayable for tournaments. Why? He won't make as much money that way. The fact that both Smash games are still played today gives more incentive for him to make them both tournament playable and random, with selectable options.

And while I'll probably end up playing Brawl for serious matches in the long run, of course I'm going to screw around with items and free for alls too when the game first is released. The good thing about free for alls with items and crap stages is that it's more fun for me to play that way against people who suck badly enough at the game, and in the beginning it's good to allow me to get a feel for each character. Playing random characters on random stages will allow me to get an idea of what each move does, how far each character flies with each attack, falling speed, weight, etc. and will be more entertaining for this purpose in the beginning than training mode. One thing I've noticed about some people in Melee is the fact that a lot of people jumped right into wanting to get good at the game right away, so they never really got the chance to screw around, and therefore didn't get a feel for the characters in the same way.

There is more money in keeping the game customizable anyway. I highly doubt that will change.

Same here, Rapid. Items are fun every once in a while if you just want to wing it, but when it comes to serious one-on-matches, it's good to take items off. To change the customizable settings would upset a lot of fans, and I think Sakurai knows that already.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

At E3 when Reggie mentioned the "smash community", I was pretty sure he was referring to us. Who else is there? Did they go out into the world and interview people who own SSBM? Did they put out a public survey? Did they just make it up? I highly doubt it. With the possible exception of other smaller smash-dedicated forums, my inner gut told me that Reggie was referring to this community right here. Think about it: the world's best players (sans Japan) meet here, the world's biggest tournaments are announced here, and all big news hits here first. This forum is legendary in the world of smash.

I am quite confident that SSBB will have a competitive aspect to it. What I am worried about is the potential for awkward new advanced techniques. While I cannot nail down any specific paranoia of mine, I can just imagine discovering a new game-wide technique that makes all go WTF? I've given a lot of thought to the comments revolving around "Brawl having more epic air battles", and the biggest change that sticks out in my mind is essentially permitting every character to have low lag aerial attacks. Can you imagine every character fitting two aerials into a single SHFFL?

 

[Tabris-]

I'm not going to doubt that he was talking about here since this is the biggest Smash board that I am aware of. But I can imagine they got the feedback from official Nintendo forums.

 

[A-Laon]

But I can imagine they got the feedback from official Nintendo forums.

Oh god no.

 

[MookieRah]

I've given a lot of thought to the comments revolving around "Brawl having more epic air battles", and the biggest change that sticks out in my mind is essentially permitting every character to have low lag aerial attacks. Can you imagine every character fitting two aerials into a single SHFFL?

The thing I don't understand really is that melee is such an airborne game already. Most of the game takes place in the air, even with characters whose aerials aren't all that great. If anything, I would think they would give some attention to the ground game, but I guess that is just me.

 

[A-Laon]

The thing I don't understand really is that melee is such an airborne game already. Most of the game takes place in the air, even with characters whose aerials aren't all that great. If anything, I would think they would give some attention to the ground game, but I guess that is just me.

It ain't just you; I thought the same thing when they announced a greater focus on air combat. If the air game in Melee is weak, why the hell is shffling the most important technique?

This could just prove to be another example of Nintendo's ignorance / neglect of the competitive game.

/rant

Anyway, judging by the current theory, it looks like all the characters, from Samus to Fox, have slow fall speeds and are much floatier. There's no way to tell if this will remain the same in the actual game, but it sure seems like a really ignorant way to "improve aerial combat" -- just as I'd expect it to be.

/rant again

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Well, it looks like one of the levels has super low gravity. That may have been what gave you the impression they are all more floaty; a video clip has characters jumping way high into the air and falling slowly.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

I also understand what you're saying, but it's fool-hardy. Sorry bro.

You take any competative game for example: CS, Starcraft, C&C, Warcraft, etc... : You'll see the same thing:

People play with everything balanced on both sides as much as possible - as far as tournaments go. And there's a reason for that:

Competative play MUST be based on player skill, not uncontrollable variables.

And I'm quite sick of people saying how items prove more skill. They don't. It's just a **** fact people. If somebody randomly gets a hammer... THAT'S it! Done! No questions. Instant pwnage for that guy! And don't start with that BS about how 'if ur skilled enuff u can dodge it', because (depending on that uncontrollable variable...) they might get a Hammer right in front of you, or just as you try to get back to the edge... anything can happen is what I'm saying - and when that's the case, the player skill factor decreases.

Why is it that you believe that Smash isn't and shouldn't be played as Street Fighter.. or any other fighting game for that matter? It's a fighting game. You fight.... ?

They do the same thing at tourneys for other games too. They turn off certain items that could potentially add uncontrollable imbalance to the match! Go see Halo tournaments! You only get certain items/weapons! Go see C&C tourneys! They only allow certain things as well!

People say time and time again why items should not be a factor in tourneys, and nobody listens - and nobody gets it.

Items do not create an environment for a true test of skill! End of story. We wouldn't say it if it wasn't true, and for someone who 'plays at tourneys' OP, you seem to be out of tune with the way Smash or even any other game is played competatively.

Also, I've never been to a tourney - and I think I'm making more sense than you.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Competative play MUST be based on player skill, not uncontrollable variables.

And I'm quite sick of people saying how items prove more skill. They don't. It's just a **** fact people. If somebody randomly gets a hammer... THAT'S it! Done! No questions. Instant pwnage for that guy! And don't start with that BS about how 'if ur skilled enuff u can dodge it', because (depending on that uncontrollable variable...) they might get a Hammer right in front of you, or just as you try to get back to the edge...

QFT!

Don't forget this, this is one of the more intelligent people on our forums. Seriously, someone deny his statement.

 

[psicicle]

QFT!

Don't forget this, this is one of the more intelligent people on our forums. Seriously, someone deny his statement.

Predicted response:

if da playur skill has enough then he overcome hammer items and can get all the itums and then because skill you need with items.


Well to be somewhat more non-spam, here is a post:

I think by arial based combat, Sakurai may mean actually in the air, perhaps from a full jump. SHFFLed arials for the most part target opponents who are roughly on the ground level, so those may not count for him.

 

[OnyxVulpine]

Atleast the aerial combat won't be like Mortal Kombat. Not that I have played that game, and I'm very inexperienced in this game. But he has to take competitive play into consideration, thats probably where some of the money comes from. The fact that people want to buy.. play it none stop, then win tournaments and what not will make it more popular.

The game probably started off as a party game like Mario Party but has many factors thrown in over the years.

 

[Elysium]

Predicted response:

if da playur skill has enough then he overcome hammer items and can get all the itums and then because skill you need with items.

I'm not going to go into detail on my opinions on items, but they are "part" of the game, to to be at the peak of skill for the game, would mean to be good with items as well. Some might say that to be good, you have to work around uncontrollable variables....I'm not looking to get flamed, thats just how I see things. Trny's will cont. with no items, so it doesn't matter.

On topic:
I'm not too worried about the changes in gameplay. We'll adapt to it(minus the group that wont play it if it isn't what they want it to be). The only thing i'm worried about is a so called "gimped" online experience. A revamped SSBM online would be awesome though.

 

[psicicle]

The mountains of 1v1s with items and 1v1s without items are seperate. Climbing one does not mean you have climbed the other as well. Playing with items requires different skills than playing without items.

Playing with items makes it difficult to judge whether one is better than another. Playing without them makes it a lot easier. Not to mention all the different combinations of item drop frequency and items themselves that have to be mastered to get to this "peak".

 

[THK]

Can you imagine every character fitting two aerials into a single SHFFL?

For someone who mains Ganondorf I think I just peed myself.

I two don't really understand the "improve aerial battle" deal. Unless it's encouragement for more off the stage war. Recovery seems to be easier/better, so maybe it's implied that we go off the stage to finish them off instead of edgehogging?

As for the continuous items vs no items debate. Learn how to manage both playstyles. Learn to powershield, catch, react better when items are around. Worked for me anyway.

Personally I don't TRUELY care, but lately I prefer items off cause of random explosions that make you wanna break your controller.

 

[squaminator]

i don't read. i just say that, if sakurai doesn't like competative smash, why was one of the first stages that he showed off in his blog battlefield, an mlg random stage?

and i know of no non-tourney players taking advantage of people a whole lot, and banana peel was just revealed.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Items will be welcomed into tournaments if they are non-intrusive. I would be AOK with items if I could fight my opponent while ignoring them. Of course, I would stop for any good items that appear, but I do not want to break my combo strictly for fear of approaching an item spawn point with a potentially explosive capsule/box. This is also why SHFFLs work so well: they allow you to attack without picking up items littered all over the ground. Sadly, SHFFL'ing into them often led to boom-booms...

 

[THK]

Items will be welcomed into tournaments if they are non-intrusive. I would be AOK with items if I could fight my opponent while ignoring them. Of course, I would stop for any good items that appear, but I do not want to break my combo strictly for fear of approaching an item spawn point with a potentially explosive capsule/box. This is also why SHFFLs work so well: they allow you to attack without picking up items littered all over the ground. Sadly, SHFFL'ing into them often led to boom-booms...

EXACTLY. This is the problem I have.

 

[Xaron Fisk]

there's no right way to play. it seems the lessons of bob ross go unheeded by the youth...

 

[pineappleupsetshark]

Tournament style play ruins all the fun of Smash, IMO.
I love items, explosions, randomness, and most of the stages. But that might be because nobody I know can use advanced techniques, or would care to. To most people, Smash is a fun game to play with your friends. When you remove items and limit the number of stages, you're playing an entirely different game. When you take it too seriously, it's not really Smash any more. It's the same reason I hate Netbattle, the Pokemon internet battle simulator. I enjoy both Smash and Pokemon as FUN games, and it disgusts me when people turn it into a game of skill. Clearly, that's not the purpose of Smash. I hope Sakurai DOESN'T kowtow to the demands of "serious" players. I hope he includes more randomness, and I say bravo to the OP for taking a stand.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Tournament style play ruins all the fun of Smash, IMO.
I love items, explosions, randomness, and most of the stages. But that might be because nobody I know can use advanced techniques, or would care to. To most people, Smash is a fun game to play with your friends. When you remove items and limit the number of stages, you're playing an entirely different game. When you take it too seriously, it's not really Smash any more. It's the same reason I hate Netbattle, the Pokemon internet battle simulator. I enjoy both Smash and Pokemon as FUN games, and it disgusts me when people turn it into a game of skill. Clearly, that's not the purpose of Smash. I hope Sakurai DOESN'T kowtow to the demands of "serious" players. I hope he includes more randomness, and I say bravo to the OP for taking a stand.

Have you ever even been to a tournament before? No? Then you cannot jugde whether or not we have "fun" playing in said manner which is in opposition to yours.

Smash Bros isn't a game created for one single purpose of playing; it's about variety. Item play may be common amoung everyone, but just because the game proposes a specific demographic doesn't mean. The variety of the Smash Bros series is what keeps the series alive and popular.

Now, on to the whole "Smash isn't serious" crap. The games presentation may not look serious, but competative play exist in almost all fighting games in general. Because we decide to play the game on a legitimate format doesn't mean that it isn't Smash Bros, it just means that we like to play the game by exchanging fist on an equal playing field without uneccesary random variables that could potentially cause the game to become opposite. It's the same game, were just playing it in a diffirent manner.

According to what you're saying, if we aren't playing an FFA with items it isn't smash. So I guess having the option to customize the way you play is useless, right? Here is a fun fact: Smash Bros wouldn't be a popular game if it didn't have a variety of playing methods. Otherwise, you would just be playing a fighting Mario Party game. Even so, why not try to enter competative play before you pass judgement? The people who play competativly were once casual smashers, but wanted to move beyond casual play into something more sophisticated. Why limit yourself? Just because we play in tournaments doesn't mean that we're not "Playing with our friends".

Another thing that bothered me is when you said "I hope Sakurai doesn't cator to the competative player". Ok, here's the thing, competative smashers don't care about what you do or how you play, yet so many people wish that competative players shouldn't have the chance to play the game the way they want. The reality of the matter is that Sakurai isn't catoring to anyone. Smash Bros. was a game designed to appeal to every audience. Those who choose to play by the demographic often opt against any variety (We have been accused of doing so as well) in playing. The thing that makes me hate scrubs is the constant amount of complaining they do; forcing their crap down our throats, acting as if they are forced to play in the same manner we are. The competative gamer doesn't want to ruin the game for casual smashers, so why does the casual smasher want to ruin the game for the competative smasher? A few answers come to mind: Hypocrisy, envy and stupidity. No one's holding a gun to your head, so play the way you play, and we will do the same.

Now, on to the "fun" theory. That, itself, is simply biased. Another persons definition of fun derives from their own personal opinions. Your definition of fun in smash would be having random variables and hectic imbalances. Another persons definition of fun (The competative Smasher) would be playing on equal grounds in a fight without random variables. We have fun in competative play because we thrive off the sense of technical skill and sportsman like conduct. Fun is a biased word.

And to reiterate for the 1,000,000,000,000,000,000th time:

Go find your own definition of fun.

 

[Mambo]

I'm sad that most matches just devolve into the same 3-4 characters and same 2-3 stages. I know not much can be done once teirs are established. It just makes me sad.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I'm sad that most matches just devolve into the same 3-4 characters and same 2-3 stages. I know not much can be done once teirs are established. It just makes me sad.

Not neccesarily. The top 3-4 characters are the ones that win tournaments, but there is way more variety than you may think. People often counter pick stages, and characters that are used frequently are:

Fox
Falco
Marth
Sheik
Peach
Captain Falcon
Jiggs
Ganon
Doc
Ice Climbers

There is alot more to tournament Melee than meets the eye. I just wish that people would actually GO to tournaments before they pass judgement.