Tournament Melee: How Sakurai will change how we play the game

[AlcyoNite]

Ok guys, you all have some good points, and I like the way this discussion is going. Some of you got off topic and i gotta explain it now before this **** gets a little out of hand.

I didn't mean to say that all items should be used for brawl tournaments. I'm almost positive that there was going to have an items list to turn off, but I said only the final smash. I'm totally with everyone for items and tournament discussions. I dont feel that allowing them for tournaments show any skill, so try not to make it seem Like i do. I said the final smash only.

Second, guys, for the love of god I'm not a noob, and theres no way in hell that right now you can prove that you're better than me, or that im better than you. So let's just all agree that were on the same level...except if PC or m2k or someone starts to comment on this thread. Start treating this **** with a bit of maturity.

Third, someone posted that they hated game n watches 9 and luigis missfire. You're right. There so ****ing overpowered, you should talk to someone about getting those characters banned from tournaments. And about peaches bombs, stiches, knockbacks, whatever. So you're saying that you hate it when that happens and it sounds like you also hate peach. That is horrible logic and you should shoot yourself for bringing that **** in to this discussion. Smash is FILLED with random events. Phantoms, invisible walls, things that you can't control but happen. It happens to everyone, and sometimes peach pulls a stich and you don't notice it until your dead at 0%. It sucks, deal with it or be called a *****.

And Eaode, **** you, you are the reason some of the smash community sucks. Not in skill level, but in personal contact. You are probably a ***** to hang with, and a ***** to talk to. I dont care if you call me a scrub, i dont give a **** if you think im a ****** for saying what I am, but im posting an opinion, your taking this **** farther than it should. Talk to M2K about this topic, and ask him if he cares about what stage hes on, what mode your in. Hes the type of kid that knows this **** inside and out and will **** anyone who plays this game in the ***. That is a kid who plays this game too much, but you know what, money is on the line and he makes it.

This thread is getting off topic? People are taking this **** too far? IRONY!
Dude, no1 is saying that Peach is rigged, and phantoms, etc. are glitches...
I bet u r noob HAHA r u gonna flame me now?
U suggest stripping away what makes this game competitive.
Why?
You say Sakurai is pissed at the metagame.
When?
You say Smash is supposed to be a party game.
How?
Who says?
I personally dont care if n00bs wanna duke it out with bob ombs and starmen, just as you shouldnt care if people wanna test their skills against eachother in a balanced, truly deep game. HOWEVER, if you put my Fox against any one of those n00bs, items off or on, banned stages off or on, I will personally hand their @$$e$ to them express delivery.

 

[AlcyoNite]

Mookie, I like arguements a lot, so keep em coming, even after this post mind you.

Btw, if that pic is you evolving from mewtwo, you look like a *****.

Look man, this is what I want. This is what I like in the game. I made this thread to find out if there was anyone who wanted the same thing. You must be ******** if I thought that I wouldn't get this **** thrown in my face.

And you're just an ******* for a lot of the things you dont realize your saying, but Ill let it slide, cause I work too hard at my job to come home, relax at home on my comp, express what I like about smash and how I hope brawl is, and being called a ****ing noob by your pathetic posts. Stop calling me a ****ing noob, that infuriates me. I love discussions and debates, but dont assume **** from me. Yea I like to play with items, I do it almost everytime I play smash, but I also compete in tournaments you ****. I play the way it is now, I like it, im saying I like items a lot too. I played this game just like a lot of people, since day one. I played competitive for about a year now, maybe a bit more, go to as many smashfests as my busy scheduel allows it. If you think for a second your a better person than me, enough to assume ****. Oh im so sorry, i gotta post lots of vids of myself, make sure I post my real tourny name so that you can verify it, I gotta have as more posts than you, which is ****ing pathetic, get a life.

Again, i made this post just to hear what people think, you dont like it? Then dont treat this thread seriously. Skip it, comment once, say your peace, ill read it, if I find it a good point or interesting, you'll know, but dont ****ing take the position which many *******s before you did. Becuase, in this situation, you're the *******, Im the guy posting what I believe. And your also the ***** that is acting like a ****ing woman with these smart *** remarks. Jesus christ, grow up

"And you're just an ******* for a lot of the things you dont realize your saying, but Ill let it slide"
Id like to see u do ur worst
"I work too hard at my job to come home, relax at home on my comp, express what I like about smash and how I hope brawl is, and being called a ****ing noob by your pathetic posts"
Really? I had no idea
"Stop calling me a ****ing noob, that infuriates me."
Its kinda funny how ive never seen a pro say that. Haha I loled; noob
"If you think for a second your a better person than me, enough to assume ****."
Who's assuming things here again?
"Im the guy posting what I believe. And your also the ***** that is acting like a ****ing woman with these smart *** remarks."
smart *** remarks? All I saw was justified reasoning, and he made a better point than u r making now. I also like how ur a sexist...o wait...that was an assumption.
"Jesus christ, grow up"
ROFLOLMAO

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

The smash community needs to be revamped. In my opinion, and I want a big discussion on this, smash tournaments right now does not show how skilled you are in smash bros melee. This community changed the way this game should be played. It's a party game, with multiple characters, multiple stages, and multiple items to play with. Tournament have gotten rid of multiple stages, the ability to ban a stage and no items. I love playing smash, and I'll do it all night long with good people and good fun. I go to tournaments, i watch almost every video on smashboards, I like smash, so don't confuse me with someone that has a grudge. Just think of how this game should be played, how Sakurai wanted smash to be. He hates the way it's played in tournaments, and I have to agree with him.

In my opinion, Sakurai will make this game unbalanced. I'm saying unbalanced in a tourament way. I hope to god that he will make the final smash available at all times, with no chance to disable it. I hope that almost every stages will have some kind of random happenings that will confuse and try to influence the match. The ability to break the ground as we saw on the trailer, more of a f-zero map kind of feel, with the cars, moving stage, less ledges to grab. Do i believe that there will be a item disable list? Of course. In brawl, people will be good not becuase they can chain grab falco on FD, or shine spike someone coming back from a smash. People will be good based on interacting with the stage, being able to deal with whatever event takes place. To be able to judge, which stage they are best with (especially becuase the scenes from the trailer, it seems that each stage will have a different feel for it, to make it able for players to get acustom with a specific one to be able to counterpick).

I'm not one of those "Items should be allowed to be in tournaments" people, cause I believe that there are certain items, like stars, hearts, pokeballs and such that are too good for a skilled match. But then picking one character like shiek or peach, then being able to beat the best yoshi player in the world, a person who trains to try and find a way to beat a better character, it wasted and is like he put effort for nothing in a match where items are useless, people ban the stage hes best at, then only selecting 4-6 stages on random where its all the same, a flat multi platform, that yoshi is in a constant uphill battle. That's ****ed up.Sakurai will make brawl better this time, especially for those who want to ban everything random. This time, tournament won't be hosted by people that thing a party game can be made into a skilled fighting game like streetfighter or something, but it will be exiting, it will be fun to compete, and it will attract more people than any fighting game before us.

1. No it doesn't.
2. Yes they do.
3. There are no banned characters. Besides, how the **** would you feel if you were in a tournament with a large sum of prize money, and you lost because of a ****ing hammer?
4. How the **** do you sleep at night? You say you hope items are not allowed, but Final Smashes are? What the hell is with that? Sakurai said himself on DOJO that a Final SMash is basically a personal hammer.
5. Good luck! Most people who treat Smash like a party game suck at it. That also made no sense because you said tournaments wouldn't be hosted by people who thought it was competitive. The point of tournaments is COMPETITION.

 

[The Hypnotist]

If you really hate the tourney scene so much why do you play at them?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I would like to see a cited quote of Sakurai ever even commenting on the way tournaments are played.

 

[Doggalina]

Bow to this man (woman?); he takes you to market.
TC, I think you are seriously misled. SSBM is BOTH a party game and a competitive tournament worthy game. I'm pretty sure that Sakurai is aware that most of his fanbase is comprised of competitive gamers.

Okay, let's use some numbers here. Melee has sold about 7 million copies. Let's assume one copy=one person in the fanbase. "Most" is a subjective word, but let's assume that it's 51% or more. 51% of 7 million = 3570000.

For some reason, I doubt that there are over 3 million competitive Smashers. That's like 54 Smashboards!

Basically, there are way more casual Smashers than there are competitive, so of course he should cater to them more.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

Okay, let's use some numbers here. Melee has sold about 7 million copies. Let's assume one copy=one person in the fanbase. "Most" is a subjective word, but let's assume that it's 51% or more. 51% of 7 million = 3570000.

For some reason, I doubt that there are over 3 million competitive Smashers. That's like 54 Smashboards!

Basically, there are way more casual Smashers than there are competitive, so of course he should cater to them more.

I get where you're going with this...
But what's the point of NOT catering to them by REMOVING that LITTLE extra degree of customisability? It's this outright thoughtlessness of some of you *****es and *******s that pisses me off so much!

It's not as if the ability to turn off items WASN'T in the original 2 Smash games, so why do you assume Sakurai would DELIBARATELY set out to cripple a certain aspect of the game by removing some CUSTOMISABILITY?

That's like me saying "You play like that, I play like this", but YOU turning around and saying "NO! You CAN'T play like that. I'm going to be a total *** and REMOVE the way you play the game, NOW EVERYONE MUST PLAY LIKE ME OR DIE." Fascist.

 

[Krytha]

Having even one type of item on allows for barrels and crates. That means that it also allows for the possibility of exploding barrels and crates/capsules. There are so many times where you're in the air doing our Uair and the game just SPAWNS one of those mofos right on top of you. How do you dodge that? You don't. You just get owned.

The way pros play, theyre moving so fast and all over the stage. At any given point, they could kick a spawn simply because it appears right in front of their target, not because they thought it would be a good idea. Have full customisability. Even if they didn't, tournaments would go their own way. Can't turn off a stage? Then restart until you get the right one. Can't turn off Final Smashes? The rule says if you grab one that spawns you can't use it offensively or you get DQd. People will do what they have to do to make it even in these tournaments regardless of whether Sakurai tries anything (which I don't think he will).

 

[the grim lizard]

Most people have a misconception of Smash64 and Melee. While both great games, most people don't realize that 64 was pretty balanced overall, and Melee had some major balance issues. I don't say that to complain because I love both; in fact, I definitely love Melee a lot more. It was just the fact that it had twice as many characters, three times as many stages, and more varieties of game modes by far than Smash 64, all of it done in less than two years time. And on top of all of that, they were moving to a new engine. That's actually pretty impressive when you think about it.

I'll get to my point very quickly: Smash64 was pretty easy to balance because there were 12 characters and 9 stages. Melee had 26 characters and 26 new stages. Both had about the same number of items, more or less. So, what happened is that they tried a ton of different things with character movesets and stage ideas. As a result, it became hard to balance, especially in their timeframe. While almost every single character and stage in Melee is fun to play with, there are just too many balance issues for tournaments. Items kind of fall into the same category here, but what most people don't realize is that the primary reason items are banned is the exploding crates/barrels.

It seems to me that it would be very easy to fix these. Make stages more balanced for all characters, make the characters more balanced themselves and fix brokenness. Even items could be brought back in with some adjustments. Obviously, I doubt you could leave all of them on as they would be probably too extreme for any hope of appearing in a tournament. The heart container, hammer, and mushrooms come to mind. A good number of items, though, could be easily avoided by a GOOD player just like any other attack, assuming you put the items on a low appearance.

So, that is a little long-winded clarification there and my opinion. (One more note on items: in a lot of ways you're at a disadvantage holding onto a particular item to use it because you can't use your A-moves; there is a trade-off.) Anyway, I hope this made sense. I could see some changes happening in the tournaments, on a large scale, that is. We'll just have to see how it plays out when we get it in December...

 

[ToXn]

Im not a big fan of people like you, and this is what competitive tournaments do to people like you. People like you dont know what its like to work your *** off and enjoy a couple drinks with friends, sit down, and play smash as the party game its supposed to be.

How come someone makes fun of a competitive gamer, they have to mention something like how they themselves drink,smoke(not in this case) or hang out with friends. Just because someone takes a game seriously doesn't mean they don't have time for other things you idiot.

 

[Doggalina]

SSJ4Kasuki, you might have misunderstood me. I'm all for tournament rules. Whenever my friends and I have our little smashfests, we never used items and only use tourney legal stages (we even play best of 3 w/advanced slob and all that jazz).

It's just that the majority of the profit from Smash will come from casual Smashers. The game is made to make money, after all.

 

[MookieRah]

most people don't realize that 64 was pretty balanced overall, and Melee had some major balance issues.

I have to disagree with you there, the balance of 64 is in the same boat as it is with Melee. I know this because of my friend Moogle, whom was Isai's training partner and is one of the better SSB64 players (I'd say Moogle is easily in the top 10-20 best SSB64 players). It is gravely apparent that some characters are vastly better than others, but the thing is, so few players are actually good enough at the game for people like Isai to go all out with Pika or Kirby or whomever. Trust me, it may seem more balanced, but it is not. It's just that the metagame for SSB64 is messed up, because it didn't really develop much until after melee came out.

As far as balance in melee goes... There are more playable top characters in melee than there were playable characters in total in SSB64. More characters means more diversity means more imbalance. Yes, there are a few obvious imbalances that Nintendo should address, but the game isn't NEARLY as bad as people are clammoring about. It just seems that the newer crowd that is just now being educated to tiers is spiteful of it. Unlike how a lot of things used to be, people believe in the tier list now, so they get pissed to find out that some characters (some they like) just aren't as good as others. There are FAR more imbalanced fighters out there.

I do hope Nintendo does a better job balancing characters this time around, cause it would be better if it was more balanced (at least from the get go), but I would be VERY happy if Brawl has the same percentage of good characters as melee did.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

As far as balance in melee goes... There are more playable top characters in melee than there were playable characters in total in SSB64. More characters means more diversity means more imbalance. Yes, there are a few obvious imbalances that Nintendo should address, but the game isn't NEARLY as bad as people are clammoring about. It just seems that the newer crowd that is just now being educated to tiers is spiteful of it. Unlike how a lot of things used to be, people believe in the tier list now, so they get pissed to find out that some characters (some they like) just aren't as good as others. There are FAR more imbalanced fighters out there.

You rule. You rule so ****ing much. you -slay- the scrubgays

 

[the grim lizard]

It just seems that the newer crowd that is just now being educated to tiers is spiteful of it. Unlike how a lot of things used to be, people believe in the tier list now, so they get pissed to find out that some characters (some they like) just aren't as good as others.

I know you weren't implying this, but I'm not a scrub. I've been around a while. I've been coming here since Melee came out, even though I didn't register until Nov. '04. You may be right about 64 not seeming that way because of less players, but it just feels more balanced because you don't have a few of the pretty big unbalanced parts in Melee that you were referencing.

I have no problem with characters being better than others, but the tradeoffs should be more obvious. In other words, when someone asks me "Who do you main?" The question should not invoke "What?? You play hiim!?? pffft!" no matter who I main. I don't think there should be a set of "acceptable" characters to main. You all know what I mean.

I do hope Nintendo does a better job balancing characters this time around, cause it would be better if it was more balanced (at least from the get go), but I would be VERY happy if Brawl has the same percentage of good characters as melee did.

I agree with that but I think many aspects of the tier list that people regard as inevitabilities are not so. For example, Fox is one of the fastest characters in the game (if not the fastest). Bowser is one of the biggest characters in the game, and he is one of the slowest as far as start-up and cool-down times.

At the end of the day, Fox's 1/2 second start-up attack shouldn't be as strong as bowser's 2 second start-up attack. (I completely made up those numbers, I'm just going on the fly here.) Correcting that where you give Fox great speed at the expense of power and Bowser power at the expense of speed, something like that is a pretty easy way to more balance the game.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Okay, let's use some numbers here. Melee has sold about 7 million copies. Let's assume one copy=one person in the fanbase. "Most" is a subjective word, but let's assume that it's 51% or more. 51% of 7 million = 3570000.

For some reason, I doubt that there are over 3 million competitive Smashers. That's like 54 Smashboards!

Basically, there are way more casual Smashers than there are competitive, so of course he should cater to them more.

This is a great analysis, but it lacks one aspect: the hours put in by competitive smashers totals to a larger amount than that of casual smashers. This means that if Nintendo ignored the competitive smashers, it might not have drastic effect on sales, but it would absolutely murder how much the game is played in general.

If anything, competitive smashers are Nintendo's best form of advertising. Take me, for example. I have spread SSBM to a number of friends because of how much fun I have with the game. I put in 100 hours of smashing for every 1 hour my friends smash casually. Let's look at the numbers again:

x = casual smashers
y = competitive smashers
x + y = 7,000,000 (the total number of smashers)
100y = x (competitive smashers put in 100 hours for each casual smasher's hour)
100y + y = 101y = 7,000,000 (using basic algebraic substitution, only y remains in the equation)
y = 69,307
x = 6,930,693

So, basically, this states that the competitive smashers (y) are putting in enough time to match the time put in by casual smashers (x). At the time I posted this, Smashboards has precisely 66,901 members. That is strangely close to the number I just derived for competitive smashers (y). Obviously, not every competitive smasher puts in a 100:1 ratio of time compared to casual smashers, but for every one who puts in less, there are some players who compensate by putting in as much as 1000:1 ratio.

Regardless of how inaccurate my figures may be, Nintendo would be foolish to ignore us.

 

[A-Laon]

the hours put in by competitive smashers totals to a larger amount than that of casual smashers. This means that if Nintendo ignored the competitive smashers, it might not have drastic effect on sales, but it would absolutely murder how much the game is played in general.

Unfortunately, Nintendo is getting payed by units sold, not hours played, so they have no need to cater to those that play more, but instead those that buy more.

Regardless of how inaccurate my figures may be, Nintendo would be foolish to ignore us

Yet they'd also be equally profitable.

Believe me, I don't want the rich competitive nature of Smash to be in anyway damaged, but marketing asks for otherwise, and marketing is what developing a game is inevitably going to be dictated by.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Unfortunately, Nintendo is getting payed by units sold, not hours played, so they have no need to cater to those that play more, but instead those that buy more.

Believe me, I don't want the rich competitive nature of Smash to be in anyway damaged, but marketing asks for otherwise, and marketing is what developing a game is inevitably going to be dictated by.

I understand that, but I'm saying that competitive smashers keep the game strong and even spread it to more casual audiences. If they killed the competitive smash scene, they would feel it. The game would still be a hit, but it would suddenly lack that which Melee had all along and sales would be lower. Competitive smashers drastically increase the value of the game.

 

[A-Laon]

I understand that, but I'm saying that competitive smashers keep the game strong and even spread it to more casual audiences. If they killed the competitive smash scene, they would feel it. The game would still be a hit, but it would suddenly lack that which Melee had all along and sales would be lower. Competitive smashers drastically increase the value of the game.

I'd definitely agree, but I can only imagine that making the game more accessable to larger casual audiences (which is seemingly becoming Nintendo's entirely philosophy of game design) would be more profitable for them than banking on a competitive community bringing more people into the game.

Hell, I think it's safe to assume that most of today's competitive smashers bought the game long before they knew or cared about competition, so the community isn't really even attracting new buyers, or at least not to any substantial degree. I'm one of the few that bought the game purely to compete, and I'm yet to meet anybody else who did the same.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I'm yet to meet anybody else who did the same.

Well, unless you don't count Internet contact as "meeting" someone, consider me #2. I purchased Melee strictly to compete. ^_^

 

[A-Laon]

Alright, now nobody else start posting saying you did the same. It would be highly detrimental to my argument.

 

[Sundown]

To be honest, i just bought melee not so long ago, and i did it after a friend introduced me to smashboards and showed me videos of competitive smash play . Coming from a 3s and GGXX background i lvoe competing in fighters, and after my friend showed me how deep and awesome this game can be at competitive play, thats when i decided to buy a wii and Melee haha . Thats the reason im getting Brwl too... hoping for more Melee-like play, cuz its just so awesome.

Sry for not listening to u a-laon

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Alright, now nobody else start posting saying you did the same. It would be highly detrimental to my argument.

I physically LOL'd at that.

What I meant to say was I bought it for the pretty cover... and because it had Link in it...

 

[Tundravalco]

********

too short so yeah.

 

[MookieRah]

Something that hasn't been addressed in a while:
What reason do they really have to dumb down the game and remove a lot of the advanced aspects? Look at melee, people still play it casually all the time, without the advanced techniques. Yes, wavedashing and l-canceling are more widely known, but it would not detract from sells numbers at all to leave them in. Yes, there are some ignorant and spiteful casual players who think that it should be removed cause they believe it "ruins" the game because they can't compete on a competitive level, but they wouldn't boycott it if they left all this stuff in.

Melee inadvertently (well in some aspects, but not all) catered to both groups simultaneously and regardless of any tension between the two groups the consumer base was very very satisfied with the end product. Thusly, there is no reason to cater just to the casual player to make them feel better when they would be taking some of the game away from the competitive player. It's extra work to take them out, and it truly doesn't benefit anyone to do so.

Nobody has provided a really good argument to remove anything from the game, except maybe Pip in the wavedashing thread, but even that I think is way way too deep for Nintendo to consider, and if anything Nintendo not only like to make sales from it's consumers it likes to "keep" getting sales. The way to build loyalty to a company is to provide them with exceptional games consistently and to focus on what would actually make the game better.

 

[A-Laon]

Something that hasn't been addressed in a while:
What reason do they really have to dumb down the game and remove a lot of the advanced aspects? Look at melee, people still play it casually all the time, without the advanced techniques. Yes, wavedashing and l-canceling are more widely known, but it would not detract from sells numbers at all to leave them in. Yes, there are some ignorant and spiteful casual players who think that it should be removed cause they believe it "ruins" the game because they can't compete on a competitive level, but they wouldn't boycott it if they left all this stuff in.

Realistically, they have no reason for removing the advanced techniques for every reason you stated; however, if Nintendo is so heavily against, or, at the very least, totally disconcerned with competitive gaming, what reason would they have to leave them in? Hell, doing such would technically be against their own philosophy of game design (the whole "make casual games approachable for anyone" speel). It's totally an idiotic conflict of principle, but I would not be surprised if Nintendo was so obsessed with creating and following those principles as to remove any competitive aspects from Smash.

 

[MookieRah]

what reason would they have to leave them in?

It takes work to take them out.

the whole "make casual games approachable for anyone" speel

This doesn't affect the casual gamer.

There is no proof that they even know about this stuff either btw. The whole rumor about the people knowing about wavedashing in development was something that was disproven a while back, but has cropped up again by people who aren't educated in the matter. It is very possible that Nintendo is completely unaware of all this. While it's unlikely, I think it's way more likely than Nintendo purposely removing wavedashing in regards to the casual gamer.

 

[the grim lizard]

Nobody has provided a really good argument to remove anything from the game, except maybe Pip in the wavedashing thread, but even that I think is way way too deep for Nintendo to consider, and if anything Nintendo not only like to make sales from it's consumers it likes to "keep" getting sales. The way to build loyalty to a company is to provide them with exceptional games consistently and to focus on what would actually make the game better.

This isn't a reply that they should remove anything per se, but I have a pretty good reason for altering these types of things. I think they should do some tweaking somehow (such has changing the timing for wavedashing, etc.) so that it isn't exactly how it played in Melee. I'm sure they will do stuff like this to some extent, but I'm not exactly sure what.

Why you ask? It at least helps to even out the playing field at first. Of course there will always be Kens and Isais (well, pretty most those two, not multiple of them), but it's nice to start out in the same spot. At least, for people who are competitive but not...crazy pros like those guys, it helps out for getting used to the game early on and encourages more to get competitive, without being deterred by the people who have already been doing it for years.

Basically, it's like starting a race and instead of everyone starting at the starting line and beginning when the gun fires, you don't even know you're in a race until the other guys are miles ahead of you. It would just be nice for everyone, I think, if we at least started on a level playing field.

 

[A-Laon]

There is no proof that they even know about this stuff either btw. The whole rumor about the people knowing about wavedashing in development was something that was disproven a while back, but has cropped up again by people who aren't educated in the matter. It is very possible that Nintendo is completely unaware of all this. While it's unlikely, I think it's way more likely than Nintendo purposely removing wavedashing in regards to the casual gamer.

Quite frankly, Nintendo would have to be downright ignorant to miss what Smash has become. If Nintendo is unaware of the advanced game and the competitive community, then that just shows total neglect of their fanbase. Furthermore, if they're unaware of competitive Smash techniques, or if they disapprove of them (again, an aspect of their typical game design) they'd likely label these features as mistakes on their part, and would seek to "fix" them.

All in all, I'm saying Nintendo's very weak-minded when it comes to serious, competitive gaming, and that they'll consistently make a focus to "casualize" their games to levels that remove any potential for competition and instead always work to ensure that games are simple and easy enough to attract the larger, casual masses. Unless they show some support for the community or outwardly state otherwise, I have no reason to believe they'll think differently regarding Smash.

 

[the grim lizard]

All in all, I'm saying Nintendo's very weak-minded when it comes to serious, competitive gaming, and that they'll consistently make a focus to "casualize" their games to levels that remove any potential for competition and instead always work to ensure that games are simple and easy enough to attract the larger, casual masses.

OK, I definitely have to interject. I'm 100% CONFIDENT that they know about the Smash Community, and I'll give you two examples: 1) Reggie directly addressed us in yesterday's conference. He said, "Yes, the Smash Community is stoked, but when?..." 2) In a long commentary by Sakurai (as translated by Samurai Panda), he acknowledges/congratulates a couple who just had their first kid, a couple who MET at a Smash tournament. They know about it. Trust me.

Also, as has been said, they can leave advanced techs in and the "casual gamer" would be none the wiser. Do you REALIZE that almost NOBODY would know about wavedashing unless they came to this site or heard about it form someone who did? And it wouldn't hinder you at all to just play with a bunch of buddies. I understand all of the points being made here, but that is just silly. A) Nintendo knows about the Smash Community and B) They can have advance techniques in and still appeal to everyone.

I think this discussion can still continue in other regards, but those are two points that are irrefutable.

 

[MookieRah]

Why you ask? It at least helps to even out the playing field at first. Of course there will always be Kens and Isais (well, pretty most those two, not multiple of them), but it's nice to start out in the same spot. At least, for people who are competitive but not...crazy pros like those guys, it helps out for getting used to the game early on and encourages more to get competitive, without being deterred by the people who have already been doing it for years.

Basically you don't want there to be a transfer of skill. However, there were a lot of things that stayed from original smash to melee. Core gameplay concepts as well as Z-cancelling. If you were good at SSB you had a direct advantage when you picked up Melee. It isn't as apparent though as I would predict skill to transfer over to Brawl, and that is mainly because they are using the melee's engine as a springboard for Brawl's. That in itself speaks a huuuuugggggeee amount on what we should expect from the game.

Is there really such demand that the game be dumbed down, or is it just the few people that are just now finding the scene want it to be restarted for their own sake? It seems most of the arguments against keeping the same kind of stuff in ONLY come from people who are either spiteful, or want everything to be "fair." Most other games of the genre have A LOT of transfer of skill involved. Do you think people who rocked at Street Fighter had to restart with Street Fighter Alpha? LOL, no, they didn't.

A few things we should *expect* to come back is this: DI, teching, and l-canceling. If those 3 things return, which they would seeing how these have been implemented purposely in melee, there will be a lot of transfer of skill. I'm sorry, but unless you want to make Brawl so different from melee that it's almost unrecognizable, people who **** in melee will **** in brawl.

Let me say this again, and you can quote me if I'm wrong when it comes out:
"People who are good at melee will be good at brawl, and have a significant advantage over anyone who was not a part of the competitive smash scene before brawl."

You seem to refuse to acknowledge all the people who would be angered by the lack of skill transferring over. We have worked hard to be as good as we are, what right do you have to be spiteful and try to claim it should be on an even page for Brawl?

A) Nintendo knows about the Smash Community and B) They can have advance techniques in and still appeal to everyone.

EXACTLY!!! Nintendo won't lose sales because of adding them in, and if they took them out a large portion of the competitive community would be quite upset. What would Nintendo gain from making everyone start over? *Most* people I run into already think they are the best smasher in the world, and they have never heard of this site, so it's not like there is a massive uproar to take this stuff out from the casual community. Mostly it's the casual players who get ***** by the good ones get pissed, cause it hurts their pride.

 

[A-Laon]

OK, I definitely have to interject. I'm 100% CONFIDENT that they know about the Smash Community, and I'll give you two examples: 1) Reggie directly addressed us in yesterday's conference. He said, "Yes, the Smash Community is stoked, but when?..." 2) In a long commentary by Sakurai (as translated by Samurai Panda), he acknowledges/congratulates a couple who just had their first kid, a couple who MET at a Smash tournament. They know about it. Trust me.

Also, as has been said, they can leave advanced techs in and the "casual gamer" would be none the wiser. Do you REALIZE that almost NOBODY would know about wavedashing unless they came to this site or heard about it form someone who did? And it wouldn't hinder you at all to just play with a bunch of buddies. I understand all of the points being made here, but that is just silly. A) Nintendo knows about the Smash Community and B) They can have advance techniques in and still appeal to everyone.

I think this discussion can still continue in other regards, but those are two points that are irrefutable.

I think you misunderstood.

First off, I never said that I think Nintendo doesn't know of the community. That was a possability brought up by MookieRah, and I simply stated that Nintendo would have to be very ignorant for such to be true. Personally, I'm totally certain they know of it, but are generally disconcerned with it.

Second, I'm not saying that the advanced aspects can't be left in without making the casual player discontent. I totally know they can and fully believe they should. The point I'm making is that I feel Nintendo may disregard this fact and remove such features anyway as they consistently fail to support competitive gaming and would not want such features in the game.

 

[MookieRah]

Well, if that is Nintendo's standpoint (I honestly am not aware of any games of Nintendos that have been directly competitive in the first place, outside of maybe F-Zero and Mario Kart) then we are screwed. At the same time, maybe this franchise is an exception to the rule as well. Again, look at how complex DI is? Also, think of all the little things like being able to tilt your shield. There are a lot of nuances in melee that reward those who spend enough time to discover them, and I don't see them simplifying brawl when they only added more stuff to melee.

 

[A-Laon]

It's a totally debatable issue, and you bring up a good point with how much was added to Melee.

Honestly, the main driving force behind my lack of confidence in Nintendo leading Brawl in a competitive direction is their philosophy of "making games everybody can play" and the rest of their efforts to make games more appealing for the casual masses, an idealism they've been proudly boasting ever since the development of the Wii.

Nintendo has been commonly stereotyped as being a "casual" gamer's system. Like any stereotype, there are numerous flaws and exceptions, but there's also a lot that makes this true. As said, Nintendo has never really focused on making competitive games or supporting their communities. Hell, Nintendo was a generation late in integrating even online play, and it's still rather restricted and small-scale when compared to the likes of XBox Live or whatnot. Nintendo just hasn't put in an effort to bring hardcore, head-to-head gaming to its fans.

Ever since the dawn of the Wii, Nintendo has not only continued in making generally simple, easily-approachable games (many of which have been seriously lacking any depth), but they've been selling their console precisely on such a point -- a point of NOT aiming to please the more dedicated gamers and instead catering to those seeking an easier, 'friendlier' experience. They've veritably boasted their console's potential to make games everybody can approach, and their advertising campaigns have shown this as well with ads displaying full families from toddlers to grandparents playing together. Their devotion to this development philosophy, one which very much exiles the hardcore fanbase, has become so strongly outspoken by Nintendo (labeling the Wii things such as a "rebirth" and "revolution" of the face of gaming, etc.) that I find it hard to expect them to make an exception in their beliefs in order to accomadate the Smash community, again, a community they never even really intended to have form.

Debatable? Totally. Paranoia? Maybe. Nintendo is just so faithfully preaching their idealism of expanding casual gaming that I find it very hard to believe that they'd throw that way of thinking out the window just to satisfy the competitive minority of one of their most pivotal titles.

 

[Eaode]

I'm really tired of this thread. The people that make sense (eg: MookieRah and A-Laon) have already stated and restated it.

Melee was great already. the casual gamers LOVE it, and it has a lot of depth to attract competitive gamers. Taking out advanced techiques or taking out customization in smash doesn't make it any beter for casual players, it just takes the game away from serious players. The only ones who want this done are immature people who are spiteful at the competitive scene and want it abolished. It's really stupid.


And at the Topic Creator:

I think yu have said enough. The fact that you can sit down wit your buddies and play it as a party game is completely irrelevant. Smash will always be a party game. Melee was a party game. But once you delve deeper there is a whole other game that is awesome and fun and competitive and challenging. It doesn't matter what you try to say to cover yoursellf up now, in the first post you have already proven to be ignorant and spiteful. And in your following posts you have shown that you cannot handle a mature discussion and you are full of unnecessary hate.


I'm very glad that your Point of view does not matter in the grand scheme of things. This thread is pointless, and I will no longer bother to read it. Goodbye.




PS. Saying that people can't handle something and they need to leave doesn't work, it makes you look like a child. Just warning you.

 

[OnyxVulpine]

I'm just going to say, the fact that people can win and lose make it automatically a game that can be played competitively.

 

[psicicle]

I'd be very frustrated to try to play mario party competitively.

Same goes with rock-paper-scissors (people actually have tournaments for it).

 

[OnyxVulpine]

Mario Party is based a lot on luck. But it can be played competitively, just the thought of winning will make people want to play against others that think they can are really good.

 

[The Hypnotist]

No, it doesn't work like that, you can't play MArio Kart Double Dash competitivly, there's too much luck, over powered items. Same goes with MArio Party. Seriously it's a board game mixed with mini (hax) games. You know you can't play it competivitly when you lose to a 9 year old half the time.

 

[Baha]

No, it doesn't work like that, you can't play MArio Kart Double Dash competitivly, there's too much luck, over powered items. Same goes with MArio Party. Seriously it's a board game mixed with mini (hax) games. You know you can't play it competivitly when you lose to a 9 year old half the time.

I win at Mario Party all the time ! you all just need to learn to play mario party!

 

[psicicle]

Actually in mario kart DD you can turn items off. Also item-on competitive play is really lame. It consists of stalling and trying to be behind the other player a little and stocking up on sweet items (since you are deliberately in 2nd place to get them) and then using them on the last lap.