Toonami Mafia - Game Over - Daytime Programing wins!

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Vote count and prods tomarrow.

 

[vanderzant]

There's something else about WATT I want to elaborate on, but I'll wait first for others to get caught up, as I feel like I'm clogging up the thread with my own voice and I don't want my points to be skimmed.

@Clown: That's cool. I was thinking that if we got a scumflip we could steamroll the partner straight away (but then I realised that we get the flip at the end of twilight). It might be smart to save it, considering how inactive is at the moment, but then again we might not get a 2nd chance to use it... hmmm...

 

[Wots All This Then?]

**** it. Don't really care what happens to the slot anymore. J probably wont read up and we are nothing more than a VT. Feel free to lynch us, see us flip town, and have WATT realize either he completely read everything about us wrong or he's scum. Soup and Vandy, feel free to get your J paranoia out. Everyone for some reason has a problem on the one post that was made by J and its funny becausee when we talked he told me people would want to lynch him solely because people can't trust his scum game. Feel free to believe WATT in thinking that I just tried to appeal for town cred and we tried to be safe by actively opposing the 2 most popular wagons (not to mention supposedly actively saving my partner).

Peace.

First off, this makes me question my gangsta scumread. I'll probably go reread the slot soon.

it's obvious.

the yellow is where you use scare words like 'paranoia' when describing vand's points against you, presumably to try and discredit him, and showing that you're not thinking he might just be town reading you wrong.

the red is where you stick to your too-townie guns, except for all the wrong reasons. like trying to claim responsibility for things like lynching scum, when, by the way, the waggon didn't even finish, and just being on it doesn't clear you, bro.

Really? that was obvious?
@Yellow-We're not trying to discredit Vanz, we flat out said we understood him looking at it from that point.

@red-Peple eventually coming to agree with the reads we reached would show that we aren't just pulling reads out of our ***, and that they have been legitimately developed or else everyone else with the read would be scummy too right?
Wagon not finishing doesn't change the fact that we were going t badwolf all day and tipped him to the modkill point. If you don't see that then it's just a difference of perception and I can't change that.

I love that you ignore the fact that I was hilarious drunk and so not fit for actual posting. I lvoe that you then suggest that not responding to something immediately makes me scummy, which is clearly bull****.

we were supposed to know you were drunk enough to not be able to post? News to me.
Youi were also responding to other things we asked you, but not that point. We got on BW's case about the same thing.

while i'm here i should mention that i'm not sure what your contingency plan is on my townflip, or why you're trying to make it a given thing i'm lynched toDay.
Townflip is the same as Indyflip to us, we go to gangsta(might change on that due to inferno's posting of late.

no he didn't. i've just checked. I don't believe anyone brought it up, as already stated.

News to me. I believe it was brought up in the big vinylwolf connections post.
so now i'm very confused as to how you'd look at a post and think 'IR brought that up' when they didn't.

not least, it suggests you recognized the post, which is bad because as already stated you should've brought it up in making a Vinyl > BW case if you were familiar with it.

I've read the entire thread. Of course I would recognize the post.

as far as i can tell here, my point is that you were trying to hash out a Vinyl>BW case without actually putting in any legwork or scumhunting, which looks bad on you.

we put out enough to get vinyl lynched didn't we?

this is post-modkill D1. note the phrasing suggests IR didn't bring up any further evidence, so again idk where you got that idea.

I never said he didn't bring up evidence. We just said he agreed with the direction we pushed.

this is pre-modkill; you already had vinyl in mind as a BW scumbuddy

Yes we did. We weren't gonna lay it in thread when bw wasn't confirmed scum

Thanks for reminding me Kary. The BW wagon never fully got off. He got mod killed and admitted he was scum. So holding onto that "we helped the wagon move" bull that you keep spitting out doesn't count for ****. So stop holding onto that like it has any value. It doesn't and you're dumb for clinching onto it. Your plan on lynches is also bad because your lynch pool is bad and will lead to a downfall for town.

Explained above to Kary. Regardless of the way he died, We got him dead.

just read this as opposed to skimming it

aight so i guess you just dreamed that IR made a post somewhere, and that's why your 'connections case' wasn't what it could've been. riiiight.
ffs

JD is silly. I explained the vinylwolf connection in the qt, not him

Everyone give me a read on the Rake slot and if you feel that his recent posting has been damnable or creditable. I want to make it clear if it comes between WATT/Gangsta, I'm voting Gangsta also. If anyone ask details, I'll oblidge.

Rake's aight so far, but we haven't talked over ihm in depth. I'll admit i'm not the best at reading Rake scum, but JD didn't see anything off yet.

Especially since WATT is trying to pin him as Indy. Like, seriously, I have no clue at what parts of Kary's play are survival based, or any standard indys tells. He can't possibly be making this distinction.
Rajam/pjb really need to let us know where they stand

Kary's play is reminding Dietz of their tekken play, when they were indy[siblings i guess is the right word maybe? they were able to talk with a qt, but weren't lifelinked] together. It's a splash of meta, but we think he's scum anyways.

Ok @AtE stuff.

Gangsta asking the mod for clarification is definitely the nullest of tells, and WATT playing it up to be scummy is definitely weird. In fact, I think it's been a large facet of his play this game. Another example is him finding Nabe scummy for his set up speculation and word choice. Again, something that is certainly null at best, unless he can prove Nabe is posting from a position of set up knowledge that someone with half a brain and access to mafiascum wiki and DGames Archice couldn't of come up with.

It's more that Inferno asked a question that was blatantly obvious if he had read the thread. He did the same in the last day of FF8 mafia, where he was scum.
WRT Nabe, word choice is a basic component of Mafia. Tom going for a Jungle bus way back in Bruce willis mafia two for using the word "****head" or Glyph going for RR in Taco maf for the way he worded an ebwop is similar.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I also like Clownbot continuing being towny like joey was.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Here's where IR quotes vinyl Kary

snipped

and I thank you for failing to read.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I'll join IR's question then, not gonna let you get away by not answering questions (hope everyone else does the same too)

Rajam, did you get anything from RF not answering this question?

 

[vanderzant]

We're running out of time guys!

Kary's play is reminding Dietz of their tekken play, when they were indy[siblings i guess is the right word maybe? they were able to talk with a qt, but weren't lifelinked] together. It's a splash of meta, but we think he's scum anyways.

You've made it clear numerous times that you think Kary is indy.

I'm up for Kary/Nabe leaving our ranks today. Either one seems like they'd have a good chance of giving us our Indy/Mafia PR.
Vote: Kary

We got that Vinyl was likely scum. It did not change our kary read[scum but more indyish]. We feel that nabe is a likely BW partner. it strengthened our Joey [town]read. It made soup more solidly town.

Don't finger paint my posts like a four year old and hope it gets you off the lynch hook, actually do your work if you want to be taken seriously and not lynched like the Indy I'm currently betting you are.

We want Kary lynched first and foremost.
We think Gangsta is mafia. We think Kary is indy due to JD's experiance with Kary in tekken.

Can you explain to me exactly why you want to lynch an Indy read (over a mafia one) after a Night phase with only 1 night kill?

At this stage the simplest explanation is that only mafia have a night kill, and if there is an indy they just abduct/janitor lynches (or something). Yes, it's possible that doc/roleblockers happened, or both scums hit IR, or a vig idled, but right now occam's razor says that mafia killed IR last night.

This means that any indys in play likely don't have a night kill.

In turn this means that if we kill all the mafia, we won't have any night kills to worry about. Or we'll win the game if there is only one scum faction.

No townie should logically come to a conclusion of: "Oh look mafia killed IR, and there was no other kill! Let's try and lynch the indy!!!"

So why is KaryIndy your major focus for toDay? It doesn't make sense from a town perspective based on everything we've seen from Night 1.

Now I know you'll counter with "but Vanz, we didn't say Kary can't be mafia, just that indy is more likely!" And this is true, but it is not my point. At all. From your own words that I've quoted above, you make it painstakingly clear that you're pushing Kary in the hope he'll flip indy.

My point is you're strangely targeting an indy when we have so much more to gain from hitting mafia (not to mention a bunch of connections from Badwolf).

Kary's play is reminding Dietz of their tekken play, when they were indy[siblings i guess is the right word maybe? they were able to talk with a qt, but weren't lifelinked] together. It's a splash of meta, but we think he's scum anyways.

Back to this … you're justifying your IndyKary read based on meta Jdietz has from another game? And this has not popped up until now? You've been going about KaryIndy all day and when asked for how you're getting your indy read, your reasoning is literally "Uh, Kary reminds me of this one time where he was an indy sibling."

THAT'S IT?!!!

What aspect of Kary's play in this game suggests that he's indy? Is he self preserving? Overly defensive? Quick to bandwagon? Is he trying to crowd please? Is he buddying up to strong players?

No No No! He's guilty of none of these things I usually look for in an indy. In fact, in many instances he's done the exact opposite (i.e. voting RadFic instead of buddying him). You've provided a total of zero reasoning for why Kary is an indy in your eyes, and you've been voting him based on this conclusion ALL DAY.

No one else seems to think Kary is indy at this stage except you, and you haven't justified it once!

We already have a solid direction to go in today: Kary/Nabe/Gangstalicious. If it was purely my choice I'd have us kill off Kary, then if he flips indy/town we go Gangsta. If he flips mafia we go Nabe.

Now look at what you plan to do on a Kary lynch. If he flips indy/town you want to kill Gangsta your #3 suspect, despite Nabe being your initial Mafia read.

And if Kary is mafia (which, by your own admission you think is indy) then you want to lynch Nabe before Gangsta, despite the fact that this would (in your eyes) lead to a 4 man scum team (because you're reading vinyl as mafia). BW/Vinyl/Kary/Nabe. Unless you're suggesting that KaryMafia means Vinyl was town and/or Nabe indy.

How does KaryMafia makes NabeMafia more likely than GangstaMafia in your eyes? Or converesly, why would you swap it around and go for Gangsta before Nabe if Kary flipped Indy/Town? These connections simply aren't explained on your part.

This simply does not make sense from a Town perspective.

Either you're not considering the connections between players and what implications are associated with them (i.e. 4 man mafia teams) or you're scum setting up your lynches so tomorrow you can go back and say "look guys, yesterDay I wanted to kill Gangsta after Kary flipped town/indy! We should totally do this!"

 

[vanderzant]

@Soup/Clownbot/Rake: Am I reaching too far here? Because I don't think I am. Ask yourselves how it's in Town's interests to hunt for an indy toDay. Do you actually think Kary is indy? And how exactly does Kary's flip determines who's scummier out of Gangsta/Nabe. All of this is not explained or doesn't make sense. Then look at the rest of WATT's play and realise that it all just doesn't add up.

I know right now we've got a heap of incredibly inactive players who aren't caught up (Nabe, pjb, kevin, rajam) and Inferno who appears to have just rage quit, but I just CAN'T ignore play like this.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm doing a mass prod in a bit, even if ya posted in the time frame of 2 days.

 

[Clownbot]

Vand, you make a lot of good points, but let me ask you this: Do you agree with me that a scumRajam flip would indicate WATT not being scum? I'd also like to make it clear that my reasons for wanting Rajam gone don't rely solely on inactivity at all (although that definitely doesn't help his case).

Fairly confident that I'm going to use my ability this Twilight. We'd have to work quickly to get both lynches in, which makes me a little worried considering the activity level of this game, but it's too valuable of a power to risk not being able to use. My ideal course of action is to lynch Rajam first, followed by someone who was on the BW wagon. I'd be willing to go with WATT if Rajam flips town, but I doubt he will. This is something we need to discuss in advance as the Day phase that results from my ability only lasts 24 hours.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

@Watt: The point still stands that you were slow onto the BSP wagon and only after it'd picked up a lot of steam. Despite most of the hate on BSP coming from his #144 and you posting shortly after it, you didn't really have much to say about it. Instead of taking your own stance on him, you instead ask someone else for their stance first.

You also didn't have anything to say about him at all, despite there being a fairly decent wagon forming and plenty of BSP discussion. These are some of your posts (page 6 for reference)

I mean, considering how topical BSP was back on page 5/6 and people were actually calling BSP out on avoiding the RadFic/Soup issue, I'm very surprised your play like this went unnoticed.

I mean yes you did eventually jump onto the BSP wagon after apparently ISO'ing him and deciding he was scummy, but I seriously don't see the need to ISO a player after 300 total posts.

It seriously looks like an attempt to justify your late jump onto the wagon:



When I mention "prior approval" I'm talking about the approval of other town members, i.e. waiting until BSP wagon had 5 votes before jumping on.

I don't see how this in an issue. We developed our read of BSP via waiting for more input and questioning the people on the wagon since in our combined opinion (or at the very least, mine and my other head didn't mention in either) we didn't see anything but hot air in attacking BSP's #144. It was a reason to attack him out of RVS for players like Kev, and it got reactions, but a scumtell in our book it was not. With enough pressure we lent our vote, he continued to react and claimed, we saw our read on him turn town enough not to continue and didn't.

We weren't waiting for approval, we were waiting for more valid reasons to think he was actually scum.



To say you were one of two leading forces in lynching BW is also a bit of a stretch from what I've read. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see your involvement in that incredibly clearing or obvtown.

We def. don't agree, and neither did IR: but he's dead. Based on how all our scum picks seem to be looking to us toDay as a way out I'm starting to think that may not be a coincidence. I was lead to believe Joey would also have agreed, but he's been replaced.

@Soup: Wrt IR being the night kill, BSP Scum would certainly be someone who'd want IR gone.

And then replace out anyways? Doubt it. But I digress: I thought you were pro BSP Town based on your catchup analysis, has that changed?

Convince me on Kary then. Tell me what actions in particular make him a likely scum bud to Badwolf. I don't see it right now. Would you be willing to roll Nabe first? What do you think about the points I raised on MiR?

I'm starting to think you haven't actually read our opinions on Kary carefully then since we aren't pushing Kary based on connections but instead on actions. I won't rule it out but it's very unlikely considering both Kary and Gangsta would have to stop looking worse than Nabe first. Point your MiR opinions out to me, the only thing I picked up on a skim of your entering the game (sorry, coming back from V/LA johns) was a comment about him having accurate negative BW opinions yet being on BSP.


I am wondering though now that I've noticed this:

Overall, I'm going to put my vote on WATT as I'm interested to see more of what Nabe has to say.

Vote: WATT

Why did you put our vote on us first if you were interested in what Nabe had to say?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

just read this as opposed to skimming it

aight so i guess you just dreamed that IR made a post somewhere, and that's why your 'connections case' wasn't what it could've been. riiiight.



oh hey.

YOU CANNOT SAY 'oh vinyl is ignoring BW, here look at this post #522' when you're sitting right next to another post (#648) where he ADDRESSES BADWOLF.

MAYBE if we had a Vinyl scumflip this'd all be peachy.

But this has NOTHING to do with how good your case was. It has EVERYTHING to do with how you got to that case, what you were THINKING.

ffs

Welcome to the wonderful world of being a hydra lol. Anyways, now I'm wondering why you're upset we had the opinion that Badwolf and Vinyl were connected before the modkill. Why do you think that it was bad that we had possible connections in mind on our most favorite-ist scum pick's flip? Or is this because you have the previously mentioned opinion that opinions on D1 aren't all they're chalked up to be (that Swiss would probably choke you out for)

 

[Wots All This Then?]

He's still ignoring him Kary. You can create a post addressing a player's existence while still ignoring them:

Badwolf's #648 as a reference:

Vote: BSP

Instead of this ****storm, we'll pass this lynch through and get something out of it.
And THEN, I don't want BW talking crap yet again, or I'll just lynch him myself, unvote, then Hammer the lynch.

Consider that as a warning, bw.

He's not actually addressing BW, he's shunting his wagon off to the side with a hollow finger wave at best. Instead he jumps on BSP and makes his intentions pretty clear that he thinks ignoring BW in favor of BSP for now is town's best option.

We know BW flipped mafia: so we also know that's an opinion full of **** and negligence.

 

[vanderzant]

Vand, you make a lot of good points, but let me ask you this: Do you agree with me that a scumRajam flip would indicate WATT not being scum? I'd also like to make it clear that my reasons for wanting Rajam gone don't rely solely on inactivity at all (although that definitely doesn't help his case).

Fairly confident that I'm going to use my ability this Twilight. We'd have to work quickly to get both lynches in, which makes me a little worried considering the activity level of this game, but it's too valuable of a power to risk not being able to use. My ideal course of action is to lynch Rajam first, followed by someone who was on the BW wagon. I'd be willing to go with WATT if Rajam flips town, but I doubt he will. This is something we need to discuss in advance as the Day phase that results from my ability only lasts 24 hours.

Without a doubt. WATT and Rajam certainly aren't aligned., however I'm just not feeling as strongly as you do about Rajam. If I were to lynch him toDay it'd almost solely be for inactivity. I don't think he's said anything at all toDay, except popping in to say that he was inactive and didn't use his ability.

Imo there's too little info on the slot to make him the best lynch choice if we're gunning for scum toDay. Considering how much info there is in Day 1 to make edjucated guesses towards BW's scummates.

A lot of things Rajam's done like agreeing to Kevin's double vote thing and his weird method of catch up are all things I can't really conclude he wouldn't of done them as town. Can you reiterate which things in particular you can't see from a town perspective? At this stage I see most of his actions as coming from laziness and inactiveness (which, to me is pretty null).

 

[vanderzant]

Fairly confident that I'm going to use my ability this Twilight. We'd have to work quickly to get both lynches in, which makes me a little worried considering the activity level of this game, but it's too valuable of a power to risk not being able to use. My ideal course of action is to lynch Rajam first, followed by someone who was on the BW wagon. I'd be willing to go with WATT if Rajam flips town, but I doubt he will. This is something we need to discuss in advance as the Day phase that results from my ability only lasts 24 hours.

I'm ok with this. I'd ideally like us to lynch WATT and then Nabe on a scumflip, or Gangsta/Rajam on a town flip.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Hate to say it since apparently it would get Vanz off my nuts, but Rajam isn't a very solid choice unless something happened in the last two pages that I'm still working my way through. I'm going to enjoy hearing all about how you two came to that connection conclusion though.

Realtime posts are my drug.

 

[vanderzant]

I'm starting to think you haven't actually read our opinions on Kary carefully then since we aren't pushing Kary based on connections but instead on actions. I won't rule it out but it's very unlikely considering both Kary and Gangsta would have to stop looking worse than Nabe first. Point your MiR opinions out to me, the only thing I picked up on a skim of your entering the game (sorry, coming back from V/LA johns) was a comment about him having accurate negative BW opinions yet being on BSP.

I have read all your back and forths with Kary, however you're responding to a point I made 5 days ago while slightly hungover and not fully in the swing of recent events. I do realise you're trying to pin Kary as indy or at least scummy of his own accord.

I still would be interested in seeing a summarised case on Kary from you and why he's scummy. It's difficult to see the source of your accusations in the back and forths because you're just picking apart each other's posts at this stage. No one really cares if Vinyl was ignoring BW or whatever your most recent argument is talking about. Just summarise your key points on Kary's overall play so everyone can see if they hold up or not.

I am wondering though now that I've noticed this:

Why did you put our vote on us first if you were interested in what Nabe had to say?

Because if you haven't posted Nabe has barely posted anything and my read on his slot comes almost exclusively from Make It Rain. I was willing to listen to what he had to say about BSP before fully making a decision on his slot.

 

[vanderzant]

EBWOP: *haven't noticed

 

[Clownbot]

Without a doubt. WATT and Rajam certainly aren't aligned., however I'm just not feeling as strongly as you do about Rajam. If I were to lynch him toDay it'd almost solely be for inactivity. I don't think he's said anything at all toDay, except popping in to say that he was inactive and didn't use his ability.

Bolded. Let's talk about this for a bit. Why as town would Rajam make a softclaim and thereby out himself as having an ability? I can think of one reason, and it doesn't involve him actually having one - nor does it line up with his actions regarding Kevin at all.

Hell, even ignoring the softclaim, his sheeping of Kevin is not pro-town in any way. If someone disagrees with this I'd like to see them try and contest it. In just one post yesterDay, he showed a vehement desire to lynch someone he claimed to find scummy, and now he's agreeing to be a doublevote for Kevin without a scrap or speck of argument, discussion, questioning, etc. towards him.

 

[Clownbot]

I'm ok with this. I'd ideally like us to lynch WATT and then Nabe on a scumflip, or Gangsta/Rajam on a town flip.

I'm willing to be flexible on the plan I laid out, but I'm not sure about this. You think WATT and Nabe could both be scum who bussed BW?

 

[Clownbot]

Well, MiR at the time but you get the idea.

 

[vanderzant]

Copy pasta MiR reasonin

Spoiler

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15113615&postcount=254

Snipped a bit about his discussion on Soup/RadFic (he basically says he doesn't have a solid read on either player).

What's interesting to me though is that MiR is seriously grilling BSP over his use of the word "confidence." I'm assuming this is Laundry so I'm not really sure how he's misinterpreting it. Even if he has just skimmed it, I'm not sure how a certain word choice justifies a vote on BSP. Also interesting is that he expresses a pretty spot on dislike for BadWolf at this stage, yet chooses to get on the BSP wagon.

#464: MiR, honestly just feels like him bussing BW (Vote is in #466). I don't understand how he can just throw out a Town read on KevinM at this stage, and to me it seems almost solely based off of meta and without enough solid info to go on. I can't honestly see what solid town tells he's getting from his posts. At this stage KevinM is literally just pushing for a BSP lynch, asking some questions and trying to bro people. It's not inherently scummy, but there is literally not enough information on his slot to be that comfortable with him. Why couldn't or wouldn't KevinM do this as scum? It's no stretch of the imagination that he couldn't.

The thing that strikes me the most though is that it's not as if he's liking KevinM/IR's push on BSP. He literally says "Though I have no idea why BSP over Badwolf" when talking about IR/Kevin. Truth be told, the only legitimate reason I can see him town readin KevinM at this stage is that he approves his push on BSP, yet it the same post he's trying to swing momentum onto BW.

I also find it weird he isn't sure in his Soup read at this stage. Just feels very non committal when Soup is the slot with the most information on the table.

In summary it felt like MiR was being really oppurtunistic with where he put his vote. Experience tells me that Scum love to bus/distance their buddies by bringing up scum tells about them, while simulataneously voting another slot. His reasoning for BW being scummy was more solid than his reasoning for BSP, yet he votes BSP because he's a popular wagon at the time. Then as soon as BW went full ****** mode he pounces.

I also don't believe his Town Kevin read was legit, and was just buddying to get on his good side. Similarly I think he danced around the SoupvsRadFic issue because he thought there might of been an opportunity for a mislynch on Soup.

To answer your other question, I do still think BSP was/Rake is Town. Potential indy though but not a play until we've nailed all the scumteam.

Bolded. Let's talk about this for a bit. Why as town would Rajam make a softclaim and thereby out himself as having an ability? I can think of one reason, and it doesn't involve him actually having one - nor does it line up with his actions regarding Kevin at all.

Hell, even ignoring the softclaim, his sheeping of Kevin is not pro-town in any way. If someone disagrees with this I'd like to see them try and contest it. In just one post yesterDay, he showed a vehement desire to lynch someone he claimed to find scummy, and now he's agreeing to be a doublevote for Kevin without a scrap or speck of argument, discussion, questioning, etc. towards him.

I agree that I can't see why Rajam bothered to say it, because it's not as if it helps town at all. But conversely I find it hard to see Scum claiming they forgot to use their ability. I mean, doesn't that just draw attention to themselves? It's very WIFOMy and thus I find it hard to understand why Rajam did it. It'd probably be swell if he could explain himself, but we have the problem of him not being around.

@ his sheeping of Kevin... you have a point. But again, Rajam hasn't really been around to give his own arguments in the first place. He was vocal about WATT yesterDay, but he literally hasn't done ANYTHING all day. We can't know if he'd continue to just sheep Kevin or make decisions for himself.

But again, I didn't really mind his initial acceptance of Kev's hand. It'd be scummy to me if he was still just trying to hide behind it, but now he's just non existant so it's hard to tell if he's hiding or plain not around.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Ok. I didn't say I find his frustration legitimate, I just said I'm a sucker for AtE sometimes and have been burned from it before. It is a thing however, and thus I don't feel bad trying to get reads out of it. I don't like the idea of "well just lynch me guys and then here's some advice" but I've seen countless town do this before. It's always going to be in the back of my mind I guess, however I can't just ignore gangsta's previous play.

A funny thing about this is that I realized that in J's one post, if he was town he was probably reading BW as town due to AtE, which actually could make sense and say something about his alignment. I guess I gotta think about his slot more. I still think regardless of the AtE that Nabe/WATT is a better direction.

Vand, are you saying you did or didn't like Gangsta's previous play wrt the bold?

Ok @AtE stuff.

Gangsta asking the mod for clarification is definitely the nullest of tells, and WATT playing it up to be scummy is definitely weird. In fact, I think it's been a large facet of his play this game. Another example is him finding Nabe scummy for his set up speculation and word choice. Again, something that is certainly null at best, unless he can prove Nabe is posting from a position of set up knowledge that someone with half a brain and access to mafiascum wiki and DGames Archice couldn't of come up with.

I actually think Kary touched on something similar (why I'm advising Soup and anyone who might of skimmed his walls to actually read the content), or if not null tells specifically, the fact that WATT has been pushing weird connections/theories.

And sure, I'll definitely give thoughts on your Nabe/Watt blurb.

I don't think you actually answered Rake's question on the AtE wrt Gangsta, you just said "ok". I was interested in what you had to say about it since you've been prioritizing other lynches as to how you've been reading Gangsta.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I have read all your back and forths with Kary, however you're responding to a point I made 5 days ago while slightly hungover and not fully in the swing of recent events. I do realise you're trying to pin Kary as indy or at least scummy of his own accord.

I still would be interested in seeing a summarised case on Kary from you and why he's scummy. It's difficult to see the source of your accusations in the back and forths because you're just picking apart each other's posts at this stage. No one really cares if Vinyl was ignoring BW or whatever your most recent argument is talking about. Just summarise your key points on Kary's overall play so everyone can see if they hold up or not.



Because if you haven't posted Nabe has barely posted anything and my read on his slot comes almost exclusively from Make It Rain. I was willing to listen to what he had to say about BSP before fully making a decision on his slot.

Alright I'll see what we can do when I finish catchup work here wrt a more readable Kary case.

My question about Nabe vs Voting us isn't really about why you think Nabe is someone worth getting information from, it's just I'm having trouble linking you voting for us with getting more info out of Nabe. ...Maybe it was just worded badly but it looked like you were connecting the two somewhat.

 

[vanderzant]

I'm willing to be flexible on the plan I laid out, but I'm not sure about this. You think WATT and Nabe could both be scum who bussed BW?

Yep. Considering BW actually claimed scum, I'd expect his buddies to just flat out bus him. I reread with his alignment in mind when I replaced in, and he was just too obvious and bad to ignore.

Look at how hard WATT is clamoring for town points based on BW's scum flip. I've kind of given up explaining that I didn't agree, and they STILL insist that they're a clear and that numerous dead/replaced townies would agree with them.

I see nothing that suggests WATT/Nabe couldn't both be partners (or one of them with Vinyl, but I have no real clue on him) if it's a 3 man team we're looking for. Even toDay, there's been a couple interactions between WATT/Nabe of obvious dislike, however WATT currently has him as his 3rd pick.

And like I said, scum like to find their buddies scummy while voting someone else.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Just popping in from yesterday-land to remind you we liked MiR before he stopped posting near lynchtime and eventually became Nabe.

 

[vanderzant]

My question about Nabe vs Voting us isn't really about why you think Nabe is someone worth getting information from, it's just I'm having trouble linking you voting for us with getting more info out of Nabe. ...Maybe it was just worded badly but it looked like you were connecting the two somewhat.

I was gonna vote either you or Nabe based on my reads, but went for you because I was still waiting for Nabe to post his big interview ISO on BSP. And I didn't really feel like gunning for MiR's head without seeing Nabe's play first. Nabe's not one to really succumb to a pressure vote either, so I literally couldn't scumhunt on him until I had more info. Where as you were pretty active and thus more respondent to my vote. You feel me?

 

[Clownbot]

It'd probably be swell if he could explain himself, but we have the problem of him not being around.

But again, Rajam hasn't really been around to give his own arguments in the first place.

he literally hasn't done ANYTHING all day.

but now he's just non existant

Moving on...

I'm not entirely sold on WATT and Nabe both being scum, but once again you make a valid point. I'd probably benefit from looking back at a couple of players.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I was gonna vote either you or Nabe based on my reads, but went for you because I was still waiting for Nabe to post his big interview ISO on BSP. And I didn't really feel like gunning for MiR's head without seeing Nabe's play first. Nabe's not one to really succumb to a pressure vote either, so I literally couldn't scumhunt on him until I had more info. Where as you were pretty active and thus more respondent to my vote. You feel me?

Yeah I feel you on that, I was just wondering since the wording made it seem like you felt the two ideas were connected.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Posting later! Sup get excited. Pissed Rake is in this game now. One spastic poster was enough

Mfw this was posted before I left:

Mfw I found out it wasn't true when I returned:

 

[Wots All This Then?]

We're running out of time guys!



You've made it clear numerous times that you think Kary is indy.






Can you explain to me exactly why you want to lynch an Indy read (over a mafia one) after a Night phase with only 1 night kill?

At this stage the simplest explanation is that only mafia have a night kill, and if there is an indy they just abduct/janitor lynches (or something). Yes, it's possible that doc/roleblockers happened, or both scums hit IR, or a vig idled, but right now occam's razor says that mafia killed IR last night.

This means that any indys in play likely don't have a night kill.

In turn this means that if we kill all the mafia, we won't have any night kills to worry about. Or we'll win the game if there is only one scum faction.

No townie should logically come to a conclusion of: "Oh look mafia killed IR, and there was no other kill! Let's try and lynch the indy!!!"

So why is KaryIndy your major focus for toDay? It doesn't make sense from a town perspective based on everything we've seen from Night 1.

Now I know you'll counter with "but Vanz, we didn't say Kary can't be mafia, just that indy is more likely!" And this is true, but it is not my point. At all. From your own words that I've quoted above, you make it painstakingly clear that you're pushing Kary in the hope he'll flip indy.

My point is you're strangely targeting an indy when we have so much more to gain from hitting mafia (not to mention a bunch of connections from Badwolf).



Back to this … you're justifying your IndyKary read based on meta Jdietz has from another game? And this has not popped up until now? You've been going about KaryIndy all day and when asked for how you're getting your indy read, your reasoning is literally "Uh, Kary reminds me of this one time where he was an indy sibling."

THAT'S IT?!!!

What aspect of Kary's play in this game suggests that he's indy? Is he self preserving? Overly defensive? Quick to bandwagon? Is he trying to crowd please? Is he buddying up to strong players?

No No No! He's guilty of none of these things I usually look for in an indy. In fact, in many instances he's done the exact opposite (i.e. voting RadFic instead of buddying him). You've provided a total of zero reasoning for why Kary is an indy in your eyes, and you've been voting him based on this conclusion ALL DAY.

No one else seems to think Kary is indy at this stage except you, and you haven't justified it once!



Now look at what you plan to do on a Kary lynch. If he flips indy/town you want to kill Gangsta your #3 suspect, despite Nabe being your initial Mafia read.

And if Kary is mafia (which, by your own admission you think is indy) then you want to lynch Nabe before Gangsta, despite the fact that this would (in your eyes) lead to a 4 man scum team (because you're reading vinyl as mafia). BW/Vinyl/Kary/Nabe. Unless you're suggesting that KaryMafia means Vinyl was town and/or Nabe indy.

How does KaryMafia makes NabeMafia more likely than GangstaMafia in your eyes? Or converesly, why would you swap it around and go for Gangsta before Nabe if Kary flipped Indy/Town? These connections simply aren't explained on your part.

This simply does not make sense from a Town perspective.

Either you're not considering the connections between players and what implications are associated with them (i.e. 4 man mafia teams) or you're scum setting up your lynches so tomorrow you can go back and say "look guys, yesterDay I wanted to kill Gangsta after Kary flipped town/indy! We should totally do this!"

Back that up Vanz: explain how we have more to benefit from a mafia flip than an indy one at this point. Because the way I see it Indy going would be choice: we'd hopefully get more flips in the way of Vinyl's alignment being revealed, and if he's stealing bodies as an abductor we don't know how many (or how few) he needs to win while we wonder where flips are going and struggling to make connections. Mafia near always needs everyone else gone to win, Indy doesn't. I fail to see the threat of one person going every night who we get to see the alignment of over giving a heave-ho to the one I think is hiding things from us. One person dying a night is no different than every vanilla game since ever, and the mafia might win in like: ~4 days? It's not very pressing over the indy concerns.


Talk to Orbo about thinking Nabe is mafia: that's not my baby. I just think he's suspicious and not sure where he stands on the Indy/Mafia spectrum. You're taking two opinions from two different heads here that haven't been discussed between each other since Christmas happened.

Get your head on straight Vand, I never suggested a 4 man scum team. If you actually read my explanation of why I have that order you'd realize that the reason I'd go to Nabe on a Kary mafia flip is process of elimination on mafia team members and him being next most likely Indy slot, not Mafia.

How does KaryMafia makes NabeMafia more likely than GangstaMafia in your eyes? Or converesly, why would you swap it around and go for Gangsta before Nabe if Kary flipped Indy/Town? These connections simply aren't explained on your part.

This simply does not make sense from a Town perspective.

It doesn't, hence why no one ever suggested that. Actually read my sentiments and maybe you'll understand why it makes sense instead of confusing yourself with your own presumptions about my feelings?

Yes, I have been. Knowing if Vinyl was truly scum or not would be helpful I think. Though it's not life or death. (but it's also been easiest for us to be confident of our Kary read based on all his reactions and me having some prior Kary meta)

I can help clear this up since I'm the one who wrote it:

We feel Kary is likely to be Indy. We aren't sure what flavor of scum Nabe might be if he is. We feel Gangsta is likely to be Mafia based on the way he handled D1 and the BSP/BW decision wherein BW flipped mafia.

After that it's a process of liklihood. if Kary was Indy, Nabe stops being a potential Indy, and therefore Gangsta becomes the next priority as the most likely mafia. If Kary is Town, then we didn't make any real headway and we kill Gangsta as the next most suspicious. If Kary was Mafia, I'm assuming (because I think Vinyl was likely mafia due to his treatment of BW) that Indy is still left and Nabe is still around and therefore we should consider him going second. Hopefully that shed some light on the process of elimination style logic I was using to decide the order on different outcomes.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Sorry for the gross inactivity guys. Been busy with the holidays, and when I had did have time to get on, I just really did not feel like playing mafia. Will try to get into this tomorrow.

If there's anything in particular you guys want me to address, lemme know. I know I saw something about wanting a read list from me, so that's on my to-do list.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

@PJB: I think "Where are you looking right now?" is the most pressing/widely asked question atm

 

[#HBC | Joker]

The last thing I remember wanting to look at was going back over your interactions with Kary, and deciding what to make of it. My initial reaction was a dislike of Kary, but I want to take a closer look.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Vand, you make a lot of good points, but let me ask you this: Do you agree with me that a scumRajam flip would indicate WATT not being scum? I'd also like to make it clear that my reasons for wanting Rajam gone don't rely solely on inactivity at all (although that definitely doesn't help his case).

Fairly confident that I'm going to use my ability this Twilight. We'd have to work quickly to get both lynches in, which makes me a little worried considering the activity level of this game, but it's too valuable of a power to risk not being able to use. My ideal course of action is to lynch Rajam first, followed by someone who was on the BW wagon. I'd be willing to go with WATT if Rajam flips town, but I doubt he will. This is something we need to discuss in advance as the Day phase that results from my ability only lasts 24 hours.

I'm concerned with the underlined. I saw your explanation for why you think we aren't aligned/working together, and I appreciate the sentiment that if Rajam flips Mafia you'd see us as Town, but I don't see how Rajam flipping Town condemns us.

Are you actually putting stock in Rajam's catchup vote from D1? Because other than that our slot and Rajam aren't really at odds. I don't think it precludes us both from being Town one bit (both of our heads have been reading Rajam as null/town that has been playing to his normal meta of derptown), and I don't like Vand being tacitly okay with this as a backburner reason to off our slot either.

Anyways: how do you feel about the idea that both of our slots are Town as I currently believe?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

I'm ok with this. I'd ideally like us to lynch WATT and then Nabe on a scumflip, or Gangsta/Rajam on a town flip.

Why Nabe if we flip scum?

Why Rajam and not Kary if we flip town?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Vand, are you saying you did or didn't like Gangsta's previous play wrt the bold?



I don't think you actually answered Rake's question on the AtE wrt Gangsta, you just said "ok". I was interested in what you had to say about it since you've been prioritizing other lynches as to how you've been reading Gangsta.

If I can get Vand's opinion on this I'm probably good for now till I talk to Orbo about Gangsta's AtE post. Seems he felt it was a town-tell and I'm hard pressed not to agree that it gives me town vibes, but I hesitate to just let him go completely for it without continuing to talk to him for more.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

EBWOP on #1470: Nvm, Kevin actually did say a few short words later that day, just nothing since :<

I retract my reaction guys and replace it with mild dissapointment that we didn't get more instead.

#badcatchupreader

 

[Clownbot]

PJB: Scumreads. You haven't given any all Day.

I'm concerned with the underlined. I saw your explanation for why you think we aren't aligned/working together, and I appreciate the sentiment that if Rajam flips Mafia you'd see us as Town, but I don't see how Rajam flipping Town condemns us.

Are you actually putting stock in Rajam's catchup vote from D1? Because other than that our slot and Rajam aren't really at odds. I don't think it precludes us both from being Town one bit (both of our heads have been reading Rajam as null/town that has been playing to his normal meta of derptown), and I don't like Vand being tacitly okay with this as a backburner reason to off our slot either.

Anyways: how do you feel about the idea that both of our slots are Town as I currently believe?

If Rajam really is town, I think it's possible that you are too and in truth you'd be a less ideal lynch to me on townRajam flip than Nabe or even PJB. The only reason I specified being okay with you on a townflip and not them is because if Rajam flips scum then you're off the table. A wordier-yet-clearer way of looking at it would be:

If Rajam flips scum, I'd go with Nabe or PJB.
If Rajam flips town, I'd go with them or WATT.

Fact is, I keep on going back and forth with what to think of you. I've generally been leaning town but certain things about your play and interactions with BW that have been pointed out just strike a chord with me. I found Vand's argument about you placing more emphasis on indyhunting than scumhunting pretty compelling, but your defense of such play has me reconsidering your alignment even further. Basically you're the player that I have the least consistent read on.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Ok, that's cool. I was really just wondering, because to be candid: I've been reading your slot as Town so far (continuing from our old read of Joey), and I've liked that you looked at the possible shady side of Rajam (though our hydra has long said "eh w/e Rajam" to it), however for the life of me I couldn't figure out why it really applied to us in particular what Rajam did or didn't flip over any of the other cast.

Anyways it makes more sense as an inclusive thing rather than an indicative thing that we'd simply still be on that list rather than added because of it.