Toon Link's Matchup Advice Thread

[Fragger]

I too need advice against Olimar.

Dis. I play against Fino quite a bit but I still get pwned.

 

[NH Cody]

Step 1: watch how mjg plays olimar.
step 2: take notes. mental or written. or both.
step 3: nair; especially full hop nair to spaced zair.
step 4: use less bombs and more arrows/boomerang.

That's all I have. This list may seem to be a gross oversimplification...but I would say he's one of the best at the matchup. Nair is what works for me when I play Oli.

 

[WindMajor]

i told sant to keep oli airborne as much as he can, cause oli is **** on the ground.

 

[Dnyce]

Step 1: watch how mjg plays olimar.
step 2: take notes. mental or written. or both.
step 3: nair; especially full hop nair to spaced zair.
step 4: use less bombs and more arrows/boomerang.

That's all I have. This list may seem to be a gross oversimplification...but I would say he's one of the best at the matchup. Nair is what works for me when I play Oli.

^This

I told this to MJ, and didn't really plan on saying it to anyone else but it's w/e

He said he tried it out on Logic in a MM at SiiS6 and it worked REALLY well.


//namesearch


Also, I don't think I play you with Olimar very much fragger O.o?

 

[Fragger]

Also, I don't think I play you with Olimar very much fragger O.o?

Either way, I get completley bent over by a good Olimar. But I'll look at that stuff and try it out. Next time we play, I'll try the Full Hop Nair and MOAR quickdraws.

 

[NearZzz]

that was sync posing as me i have no problems with olimar

-pj

 

[Awesomecake]

Is there anything we can do against D3 besides more camping? I hate having to deal with chain grabs. I tried holding on to bombs or at least keep them carefully placed to break chain grabs, but I still have a lot of trouble.

 

[Fragger]

Is there anything we can do against D3 besides more camping? I hate having to deal with chain grabs. I tried holding on to bombs or at least keep them carefully placed to break chain grabs, but I still have a lot of trouble.

Um, DONT GET GRABBED. This was basically all Lux(he plays ICs) told me at first when I started to play against him. I try to stay in the air and cover my landings with Zair, I-Bomb, Quickdraws. Yes you do want to draw more bombs than general b/c those will save you from basically losing a stock. This is all from me playing IC's though since I assume you mean chaingrabs in general.
Vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knNBXw3HNdU
P.S I was there at this tourney.

 

[MJG]

You weren't @ this tournament lol...

 

[Fragger]

You weren't @ this tournament lol...

Yeah this one was in KC and it was the first time i met you. You said it was a good representation of all the tools TL has on IC's or something like that.

Also, can I get help with the Luigi and Kirby MU's? Thanks

 

[MJG]

No its not. It's in St. Louis, MO and I don't even think I linked that vid to you XD

 

[Fragger]

Hmmmm, my bad my bad. I remeber an Ogre something tourney where you were in it and so was Lux, I just watched and didnt play

 

[DeLux]

Name searched here

Um, DONT GET GRABBED. This was basically all Lux(he plays ICs) told me at first when I started to play against him.

I told you WAY more stuff than just "don't get grabbed". I actually NEVER say "Don't Get Grabbed" because I think it's a negative stereotype of arrogance for the IC community and is an insult to the character depth and largely ignores what I feel is the most important aspect of the character (frame advantage by desync). I told you to I-Bomb me out of Uair to separate me and trap me in shield with projectiles to help zone me. When we first started playing, I rarely to never used ICs against you because new people playing against ICs is dumb (I still rarely to never play ICs against you). Please don't portray me as a negative, arrogant stereotype. I do that fine on my own.

I try to stay in the air and cover my landings with Zair, I-Bomb, Quickdraws. Yes you do want to draw more bombs than general b/c those will save you from basically losing a stock. This is all from me playing IC's though since I assume you mean chaingrabs in general.

King DDD grabbing you is nowhere near as bad as ICs grabbing you as far as I can tell in the matchup. I would assume you would use those options on all matchups as part of your general camp/zoning game.

Vids:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knNBXw3HNdU
P.S I was there at this tourney.

You definitely weren't. You were at Midwest Net Warz: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=308903

 

[MJG]

Fighting DDD is worse than fighting ICs.

 

[Fragger]

When I played you at the library one of the first times i played you, I wanted to know how get around the IC chaingrab, and you said don't get grabbed. But w/e.

 

[army man]

only thing you ever need to win is items, ever wanna look good? play with your little brother(if you can't beat your little brother, just don't play). wanna look bad? play wi-fi

 

[RespawningJesus]

Put me down for Bowser. My friend mains as him, and I main as Toon Link. Plus I didn't see a name for Bowser yet.

We're just friends playing for the sake of a good time, but we're both competitive since we usually play for bragging rights for the rest of the night. We try to get at least an hour of games in once a week. We may not be the best at this game, but we are certainly not terrible.

Right now, I'm too tired to write a detailed account of what to do and not to do in a Bowser matchup, so I will have to post the matchup data later.

For the most part, I'll just say what I found to be the best ways in taking out Bowser.

EDIT: OK, so Bowser is big, powerful, and slow. Toon Link is fast, small, and weaker. However, TL does have range to zone Bowser out. Plus if you ever need to grab, TL's hookshot range can be quite handy, both in the air, and on the ground.

Pretty much, play keep away with arrows, boomerangs, and bombs to get some damage on top of Bowser. Zoning Bowser out will be key if you want to win. It is best if you soften him up before going in with your sword. Swordsplay works best with your aerials. Just try staying to the side or above Bowser or else he can down B you in midair. Lucky for you, TL's best aerial is his sair. Use that in conjunction with nair, and you can rack up the damage up higher and punish Bowser when he is trying to recover. You can also use fsmash and land both hits with ease since he is so large. Not very advisable, since TL's fsmash can be punished easily, but it helps if you know you can land it, since that 1-2 punch can be a good killing blow at higher %s.

Avoid Bowser's fire to avoid constant damage. Bowser's Side B can be avoided if you stay out of melee range. However, keep in mind that Bowser can suicide you and win the match if you are both on your last stocks, so when it comes down to that, try avoiding the edge of the maps. Bowser's Up B isn't much to worry about. Bowser's Down B can really hurt you, so stay out of the way of it. You can cancel it with a well timed uair, but that is very risky. Bombs also help in canceling it, but still try to roll out of the way at least.

Not the best tips, but I use this against my friend, and I usually end up beating him. Just be patient, and let Bowser come to you.

 

[southpaw]

MJG could you do a write up on the fox mu? I still have yet to figure it out and it just gets frustrating when fox has the lead and runs away.
whenever you have the chance, it being finals weeks and all

 

[Zwei Striker]

Not MLG, but I have quite some experience in the fox MU.
As a start, he has a reflector, and can reflector cancel, so don't you think you can punish any lag (though you can try to get a read).
Bombs are the key. Throw them at his feet or from above him.
You can chaingrab him (buffer reverse grabs) to 28. or you can (quoting MLG) Down throw> Bair > Footstool > Dair > Dair Pogo > Bair or Zair to Grab (depending on the fox players DI) if the fox player is anywhere from 0-14% or so.
Arrows can take him out of phantasm (he can phantasm again before we can stop him, but racks damage).
Gimping him can be hard if the fox player mixes up his recovery, so I personally never try to.
The almighty bair string can true combo him at like 40%, but it won't be for more than 2 hits (don't quote me on this, though)
He's fast, and his CQC can take us down really easy, so don't let him approach. Also, He might just stand there shooting. Let him and throw bombs at him.
The hookshot can true combo in lots of things, and at low % will set up for the chaingrab.
His dair comboes into lots of things (most important ones being grab and usmash).
If he tries to utilt string you, just DI down and Shield > grab.
He might try to dthrow you to full hop fair (some even try to continue with second jump fair again) at low %. This can rack a lot of damage of all hits connect (fair alone can do 20%), but you can just DI/SDI down and punish.
His bair is safe in shield if well spaced and autocancelled, don't try punishing it.
At high%, really space well to avoid that usmash. He can only kill you with that, uair and bair. His dsmash and fsmash can also kill, but with good DI,you don't have to worry that much about them until like 170%.

 

[Death Arcana]

I just found out I have no idea how to fight olimar
I just need some crucial pointers on that MU
Like how the **** am I supposed to use bombs or just not at all
And btw MJG
Was your match with denti recorded? That would help a bunch

 

[MJG]

I just found out I have no idea how to fight olimar
I just need some crucial pointers on that MU
Like how the **** am I supposed to use bombs or just not at all
And btw MJG
Was your match with denti recorded? That would help a bunch

Yes. I you can find them on this channel when they get uploaded:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Rockettrainer?feature=g-all-u

MJG could you do a write up on the fox mu? I still have yet to figure it out and it just gets frustrating when fox has the lead and runs away.
whenever you have the chance, it being finals weeks and all

Fox is playing the MU right if he is running away from TL. You have to keep Fox at mid range (same as falco) since the lasers will deal damage across the stage and fox beats TL in the "Closer Quarters Combat" game. When fox is in the air above TL, either get from underneath fox, wait for fox to dair your shield so that you can either grab fox or footstool fox OoS (yes this works), use a retreating bair so that your sword sweeps underneath TL and so that it will hit fox as well. I didn't list Up air because fox can just shine stall and avoid the up air if he wants to and you will get punished heavily for it. Learn how to CG fox at low percentages. Grabbing fox is not something that I would focus on doing but it is really helpful if you are lucky enough to grab fox at a low percentage. Anticipate fox's ability to close space between yourself and fox very quickly. This may be pretty obvious at times but if you get in a position where you are just too close to fox, hold your shield and wait for him to attack your shield or for fox to grab you (the better option). I would rather take damage from a grab than to lose a stock from Up Smash. If your boomerang is returning to you, expect fox to either shield/jump away from the boomerang or to just use his reflector on its return. If fox decides to use his reflector, approach fox with zair. This not only stops your boomerang from dealing damage to TL but you are also able to follow up after the zair since fox has too much lag after his reflector. Don't play around on the ledge against fox for too long. Fox can gimp TL with relative ease if you aren't careful. A lot of fox mains will use fair while using their second jump since it lets fox go even higher during his jump. Fair fox out of his jump when he is recovering below the stage and follow up from there. Dair fox out of his recovery if you are in the position to do so (no I am not trolling). If fox use up tilt against your shield after he dairs or if his back is facing TL, TL can punish with nair or bair.

I think that is about it. I will touch on some other things if you have "specific" questions about the MU but that looks about right in regards to that MU.

 

[Death Arcana]

Good ****
I hate fox

 

[southpaw]

Thanks MJG. This has confirmed a lot of things, and this "Anticipate fox's ability to close space between yourself and fox very quickly" for me is what throws me off in a lot of mu's. Its like I can't throw out a aerial move cuz fox just runs under and punishes. I also get grabbed a lot. And I swear uptilt isn't punishable*checks frame data* oh nvm.
I dunno my biggest issue with this mu is killing but isn't it always? I notice that fox doesn't kill reliable either outside of dair links. oh can we do anything about that dair? on shield or on hit is it always guaranteed combo?

edit
thanks to you too striker, I appreciate your input.

 

[MJG]

If Fox uses dair on your shield, you can literally footstool fox OoS and dair him.

 

[LeafR]

I've been having some trouble with the Marth MU lately. I mean, I can keep the match even for quite a while, but as soon as I'm thrown off stage, I take a ridiculous amount of damage. I eat tons of fairs, and if I try to either just stand up from the edge or roll into the stage, I get Fsmashed (sometimes tippered) often. I try to juggle bombs for a while to see if the marth player screws up, and then I can get in. yet most of the time, I end up taking about 40% damage or more when trying to return to the stage.

Any suggestions?

Personally, I've been trying to let the bomb timer go down a bit so that when I roll into the stage it blows up while I have invincibility frames. It works sometimes, but some other times, the Marth player will see what you're trying to do, and just set up for a fsmash.

Help please :3

 

[Fragger]

Stay on stage

 

[archer.]

If the Marth knows what he's doing then he will always be applying pressure to you no matter where you are (on stage, off stage, and above the stage), so you'll find yourself without a lot of time or space to use projectiles, so you'll have to rely on your zair a lot more than normal.

 

[NH Cody]

Any suggestions?

1. go watch Jerm on youtube.*
2. use zair as Archibald said.
3. use it to space.*
4. use it some more.
5. at long range, throw boomerangs and pull bombs.
6. in close combat, use nair or bair.
7. use fewer arrows than normal, more boomerang for zoning.
* = most important elements.

Well, "fewer arrows" is not entirely the solution. What I'm trying to say is to focus more on boomerang, bombs, and zair because the latter three severely hinder Marth if used properly. For example, if he is dashing towards you and you do an SHDA, he can shield it and grab/DB. It would be better to use SH zair or to full hop bomb pull while drifting backwards and then airdodge zair. Always keep in mind that your objective is to throw projectiles or hitboxes in such a manner to avoid being counterattacked. If he's in the air and you full hop boomerang, he can fair you. Mistakes like that are common and result in the massive momentum shifts and damaging chains with which you are most likely having trouble. Offstage, throw the boomerang to protect yourself when recovering horizontally. If you are recovering vertically, when you are below the stage, throw a bomb up so he explodes before he can hog the ledge. Stall with similar bomb uthrow shenanigans when being edgeguarded and then jump from the ledge often. Do not always use the same option though. Jumping is frequently the safest choice, but you should try other getups every once in a while to mix it up, like airdodge zair onstage.

From the Marth perspective - I use Marth often as a secondary - he will probably be looking to approach in the air. His aerials are quick, damaging, and can kill, especially the tipper hit of nair or bair. However, if there is a boomerang whirling around randomly, he has limited aerial mobility On the ground, he can approach with dtilt ot DB, but you can protect yourself from a ground approach by spacing with zair. Hint: if you see him approaching you with a fast fall nair or fair, don't expect to be able to shieldgrab him because he can jab or DS. If he's merely fsmashing repeatedly as it seems to be in the case of your opponent, then shield it and nair, or camp him more in the air. Another aspect of this matchup is that it is important to punish Marth's mis-spacing and landings when possible. If he fairs you and you shield or powershield it at close range, you can nair him and get him off you. We can discuss this more in-depth via private messages if you like. There are several ways we could go over this matchup, ranging from analyzing recent match videos to establishing camping strategies. Hope this helps

 

[LeafR]

Hope this helps

This was really helpful. I'll see If I can get some matches from a tournament I have tomorrow recorded, and then maybe post them on the critique thread.

Really, Quest, this was really insightful. Thanks a lot.

 

[Kavu]

I don't know why, but I always have trouble with Wolf...can someone help me? Wolf's nair always breaks right through mine, and his dsmash/usmash always outprioritizes me.

 

[Higgens]

Any advice against Diddy? I'm just recently really playing with TL, but I've always had trouble with Diddy. Those bananas....Suck.

 

[archer.]

I could write several paragraphs on how to combat/use Diddy's bananas against him, but I'm lazy so I'll just go over a few bits.

Head-to-head, bombs beat bananas every time. For example, if you're both on the ground and you throw a bomb at him at the same time as he throws a banana at you, when they collide the banana will pop up in the air (like it just hit someone), but the bomb will keep going and likely hit Diddy.

Something I do sometimes at mid-range is if I anticipate a banana throw, I'll SH AD to catch it, cancel the AD with a zair, then throw/JC throw the banana back at him and string moves/pressure from there.

If you have control of a banana or two, for the most part you can use them the same way you use bombs, except they have the added benefit of not hurting you.

Other things:

Boomerangs eat peanuts like they were made for it.
Look out for his side b because it is gay and broken and sdkfblsdigbdgbsdb,l
If he is forced to go straight up with his up b when he recovers, z-dropping a bomb on him from the ledge area is LOL.

I'm by no means an expert in this match-up though so see what other people have to say/watch videos.

 

[WindMajor]

Something worth noting would be that if you notice that Diddy throws a banana at you and always tries to follow up with some sort of rush, you can always shield the banana and throw out a jab or a Nair and you'll most likely hit him out of his rush before he can reach you. I've seen Razer do something similar against Jerm, where Jerm would throw a bomb and Razer would just shield and jab, expecting Jerm to follow his bomb throw with a Nair.

The same applies for Diddy.

Also, you could anticipate the naner throw and try to catch it with Bair (it works pretty well), AD (like archer said), or instant-throw forward (if you miss, you Zair, which isn't entirely bad).

The challenge in this match-up is keeping your momenum (while also keeping Diddy from taking it from you). Sometimes it's best to use his naners against him, sometimes it's better to just throw them upwards (to temporarily lessen their usefulness), and sometimes it's just better to throw them away to keep him from using it. This MU requires a lot of practice, but good ways to keep the momentum away from Diddy would be to keep him in the air. Diddy can be fun to juggle at times (Bair and Utilt ).

 

[ShadowTl]

What Xivi said, this match up is really momentum based. When diddy has one or two banana's you don't want to aproach him. Try to stay in the air as much as possible then, banana's can't really hit you there. Try to land on platforms, I love smashville and battlefield against diddy. Just don't ever aproach when diddy has a banana.
You can aproach when diddy doesn't have any banana's. Diddy can get new banana's pretty fast so only go for this when you're close to diddy or when all his banana's are somewhere on the stage (or in your hands) and he can't reach them. Don't arrowcancel to much in this match up, you want to be up in the air as soon as possible again. When you get a banana, you can keep it in your hands and continue camping with your boomerang/arrows/zair.

 

[Higgens]

Awesome. Thanks. I'll for sure have to try this stuff out. I'm kinda impatient so if I lose the momentum I usually rush in alot to try to get it back, and it doesn't always work. I'll try to watch out and not make too many dumb moves when he has those bananas.

 

[SFA Smiley]

You guys wanna school me on the gdubs matchup from your perspective. I started on wifi so I was really good at the matchup but lately he hasnt been as free.

 

[Blitz Comet]

The air is not safe against diddy.

 

[Anragon]

The ground too.

Boomerang is god against Diddy, just throw it straight to him(when he's far of course) and magic things : you hurt him or cancel banana throws(make it bounce while you get your 'rang in your pocket again because it has been canceled).

Also, bombs tanks a lot in this MU too(can get 1 hit of a banana without exploding :DDD).

 

[Anragon]

EDIT : sorry, I stupidly have done a double post with the same text.

 

[Clawdsf98]

can anybody give me advice on the toon link vs olimar matchup? this seems like a frustrating mu for tl and i feel like i should learn it