Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #16: Snake

[MJG]

30:70 LOL. This match up isn't really that hard compared to the MK MU. Well, at least that's how it is for me.

MK match up is 50:50 on stage and 70:30 or 65:35 (MK obviously) Off stage IMO..

Do you think it would be wise to try to juggle snake at low percentages? I have heard mixed responses for this..against my set against a snake the other weekend, I had a fair amount of camping and aggressive-ness but I feel as if this might have been wrong to do >_>

 

[copacetic]

It depends on how campy the opposing snake is. Fatal outcamps me, so the only time I had been able to beat him was by going super aggro early on

 

[Kaffei]

It depends on how campy the opposing snake is. Fatal outcamps me, so the only time I had been able to beat him was by going super aggro early on

All you have to do is avoid the nades. Easier said than done, but just do it.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Kaffei has given in to the dark side? Welcome .

 

[Kaffei]

Kaffei has given in to the dark side? Welcome .

l0l .

 

[MJG]

l0l .

You were supposed to destroy the sith! Not join him!. *Cheesy-ness

 

[Sosuke]

Back on topic? >_<

Does anyone think this isn't around 60-40 Snake's favor?

 

[WindMajor]

Back on topic? >_<

Does anyone think this isn't around 60-40 Snake's favor?

I think it's either 45:55 or 40:60.

Snake can kill us way easier and way faster. We're pretty vulnerable to his tech chase, and his tilts are still Jesus.

 

[copacetic]

As soon as he gets one ftilt off he has enough time to set up his camping game. And that means he has hitboxes on literally half the stage if he's any good. So it puts us on the defensive and we're a bit too floaty to overcome it easily, so we end up taking a lot more damage faster than he does. Basically if we **** up once the game is in his favor.

It's 50-50 if you don't mess up, but TL has to play this perfectly while Snake is allowed to make a lot of mistakes. Which means it's easier for him, so closer to 60-40

 

[Rockan]

chip jont snake sucks at the match up I 3 stocked his snake then he went king ddd at japes (lol klap trap) when did you beat dsf??

 

[Kaffei]

I personally think the match up is 55:45. I love fighting snakes.

 

[MJG]

chip jont snake sucks at the match up I 3 stocked his snake then he went king ddd at japes (lol klap trap) when did you beat dsf??

I think that chip 2/3 stocked DSF . Does everyone agree on a 60:40 match up ratio? Heres something to add as well...when toonlink is able to grab snake below 20%, his down throw to up tilt or bair is usually the ideal thing to do, but..the snake player can just FF Bair immediately. Tl players should shield and prepare for the bair instead and go from there. - A lot of snake players like to spot dodge OoS. As far as stages go, we cant really be concerned about going to a stage where we can kill snake earlier than usual because that just means that snnake will kill earlier (obiously). I personally like playing on final destination against snake..the only stage that i have ever banned against snake is halberd. Ive heard of lylat being a good stage for snake but no snake has ever counter picked it against me yet

 

[Kaffei]

 

[Hyro]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOl

 

[copacetic]

wow. ok so this is definitely at least even. just learn to space. stay just out of range for his tilts, and if you're in kill range just make sure you land behind him. utilt and bair like crazy, they absolutely wreck him. You can go from 0-60 if you do it right, and just be patient when he's recovering. FH, then FF, then DJ an uair and you'll punish his airdodge every time. approaching with nair then retreating it to an arrow cancel works pretty well.

also, despite what the Ban/CP list says, lylat is a very good cp for us against snakes. The platforms are just low enough to mess them up, and they help us combo a whole lot.

 

[Hyro]

Lylat's good for snake because you literally can't see any of his projectiles.

 

[Kaffei]

lylat's Good For Snake Because You Literally Can't See Any Of His Projectiles.

^ .

 

[copacetic]

Just get a bigger tv. Actually I have really good vision so it's not a john for me. But that seems to be the only thing that helps him out. Unless you count being impervious to the stage tilting for recovery, which shouldn't affect TL either

 

[Hyro]

Just get a bigger tv. Actually I have really good vision so it's not a john for me. But that seems to be the only thing that helps him out. Unless you count being impervious to the stage tilting for recovery, which shouldn't affect TL either

It's not that they're small, they blend in with the backround...

 

[copacetic]

then just pay attention more? really if they can keep track of them so can you, so it shouldn't be an issue. if that's the only thing that helps him in that stage then it's the player's disadvantage, not the character's.

 

[MasterDaveNo1]

LMAO! pic saved. also, snake is gay and his tiny little kaboomies do more damage than Toony's giant *** kaboomies, and stop Toony's and keep being there =( snake is mean >=3 Poo on him.

 

[MJG]

then just pay attention more? really if they can keep track of them so can you, so it shouldn't be an issue. if that's the only thing that helps him in that stage then it's the player's disadvantage, not the character's.

I stated earlier that I didn't know why this stage (lylat) was good for snake but I definitely know now. Do not take snake to this stage lol...I still would rather ban halberd of lylat though but ya..snake having 3 platforms to occupy is not in our favor

Lol @ the picture: 10 Cool Points for kaffei

 

[WindMajor]

It's really difficult to keep track of projectiles that 1) you're not throwing and 2) you can't see. It's easier to just avoid the stage than to keep track of his projectiles.

We have like a million bad stages against Snake. Lylat is one of them. Apparently so is Halberd. Smashville is bad, and we have other stages that we just don't do well in, like Frigate. We can CP RC, but he could just ban it.

 

[Kaffei]

then just pay attention more? really if they can keep track of them so can you, so it shouldn't be an issue. if that's the only thing that helps him in that stage then it's the player's disadvantage, not the character's.

Why you would pick a stage you actually have to pay more attention to instead of CPing an easier stage is beyond me.
CPing a different stage > Asking the TO to bring over a bigger TV.

 

[copacetic]

Lylat is just really good for TL if you take out the fact that you "can't see the projectiles." It's really not hard at all to know where they are, each one has a distinctive sound and motion associated with it, and follows a set trajectory depending on the tilt of the stage. Plus it's not like they're invisible, they stand out very easily against the light-colored stage.

As far as the platforms, well they help us a lot more then them. Every time they land on one of those platforms it should mean a guaranteed bair (which usually means a couple more bairs and an uair).

@kaffei: you're johning attention span which is an element of the player, not character. it doesn't change the fact that it's a good stage for TL.

 

[MJG]

I may be wrong but I don't think anyone said it was a bad stage for toonlink. I, personally, would NEVER take a snake to this stage >_>. Period.

 

[TLMSheikant]

^ I'd rather not fight snake. Period.

 

[Kaffei]

Lylat is just really good for TL if you take out the fact that you "can't see the projectiles." It's really not hard at all to know where they are, each one has a distinctive sound and motion associated with it, and follows a set trajectory depending on the tilt of the stage. Plus it's not like they're invisible, they stand out very easily against the light-colored stage.

As far as the platforms, well they help us a lot more then them. Every time they land on one of those platforms it should mean a guaranteed bair (which usually means a couple more bairs and an uair).

@kaffei: you're johning attention span which is an element of the player, not character. it doesn't change the fact that it's a good stage for TL.

How can you just "take out the fact that you 'can't see the projectiles'"? Each individual human being has a unique set of eyes. Perception of color varies. The background, as Hyro stated, is black, and Snake's C4, grenades, and Dsmash can blend in. You might be thinking "just remember when and where he puts them". When the background changes, yes, we can see them easier.

Some people forget.
You: "Well that's a stupid john" no it isn't. People's brains aren't the same.

And trajectory? Snake's C4 and Dsmash explode, they don't float in the air and follow you. Idk what you're talking about.

It's not a bad stage, but it's not really his better ones either. Everyone has stage preferences.


Or you could just CP a different stage..Like I already said.

 

[copacetic]

How can you just "take out the fact that you 'can't see the projectiles'"? Each individual human being has a unique set of eyes. Perception of color varies. The background, as Hyro stated, is black, and Snake's C4, grenades, and Dsmash can blend in. You might be thinking "just remember when and where he puts them". When the background changes, yes, we can see them easier.
The stage itself is lightly colored, so C4 is easy to see. His dsmash is not really dark, so it actually blends in better on SV and stages like that, and most snakes will use it like two or three times a match so it's not hard to keep track of. Either way you can see the snake himself, so you'll see him throw a nade or whatever, and you can see the BLACK nade as it moves across a LIGHT GREY and BRIGHT BLUE stage. Only time you'll miss it is if he throws it up, which has an obvious trajectory.

Some people forget.
You: "Well that's a stupid john" no it isn't. People's brains aren't the same.
I never said it was stupid. I said it was a john about an individual player, not the character. We are discussing character matchups. I could say stuff that works specifically against Fatal and Bizkit but that won't help anyone here (unless you're gonna go to Pound 4 and face them.)

And trajectory? Snake's C4 and Dsmash explode, they don't float in the air and follow you. Idk what you're talking about.
the C4's trajectory is straight down. the dsmash doesn't move. I was talking about the trajectory of grenades, but you can apply it to these as well. For these moves it's extremely simple since there's only one place they can be after they use it, and you just have to remember that. Like remembering where the moving platform is on SV if they C4 that.

It's not a bad stage, but it's not really his better ones either. Everyone has stage preferences.
True about stage preferences, but once you learn to pay attention to snake's moves, it is undeniably a great stage for TL.

Or you could just CP a different stage..Like I already said.
If you want.

responses in quote

 

[Kaffei]

responses in quote

1. Thought you were talking about C4 and Dsmash specifically. Nades, yeah, they're not difficult to see for sure.

2. Even thought it is a character MU, the people are the ones controlling them, so can't human factors be included as well?

3. Explain further why it's undeniably a great stage.

4. I might got to Pound 4 just to spectate, lol. Are you going?

 

[MJG]

Sheikant gave me permission to write a summary (AKA: He is too lazy)

Wrap up your thoughts you two.

 

[copacetic]

@kaffei (too lazy to quote lol)

1. ok yeah, understandable

2. no. If it did we could talk about mindgames and whatnot, but instead it's specifically a discussion about the characters and how they interact.

3. the platforms are a good height. I don't really feel like going into it any more atm, but they help us a lot more than them. basically we can combo them so they land on the platforms, and once theyre on it we can almost always land a whole bunch more

4. Yeah I'll be going. I'm driving there all saturday night though so I hope I don't get too bad a sleep before singles. /preemptive johns.

 

[Kaffei]

@kaffei (too lazy to quote lol)

1. ok yeah, understandable

2. no. If it did we could talk about mindgames and whatnot, but instead it's specifically a discussion about the characters and how they interact.

3. the platforms are a good height. I don't really feel like going into it any more atm, but they help us a lot more than them. basically we can combo them so they land on the platforms, and once theyre on it we can almost always land a whole bunch more

4. Yeah I'll be going. I'm driving there all saturday night though so I hope I don't get too bad a sleep before singles. /preemptive johns.

2. Inevitably humans control them though.

3. I think we should get more input from more TLs, even though this discussion has been going on for a while now... So.. idk. wrap up?

4. Watch out for the roads..hopefully they aren't snowy or anything lol.

 

[MJG]

2. Inevitably humans control them though.

3. I think we should get more input from more TLs, even though this discussion has been going on for a while now... So.. idk. wrap up?

4. Watch out for the roads..hopefully they aren't snowy or anything lol.

I think we can come to a conclusion soon. I have to do the sheik summary as well. >_>

Merry Christmas again people

*Goes off to play Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker*

 

[WindMajor]

Moves to watch out for: Utilt, Ftilt, Nair, C4, Grenades, Dsmash, All Grabs

 

[Kaffei]

Moves to watch out for: Utilt, Ftilt, Nair, C4, Grenades, Dsmash, All Grabs

God dam tech chase. Racks up so much damage.

 

[Dalub]

......................................................

 

[TLMSheikant]

Oh sure I love taking 21% when I get hit by a dumb broken range, speedy stupid move. I love the snake MU.

 

[Dalub]

....................................................

 

[TLMSheikant]

70:30 snakes favor if the TL is S@nT. 60:40 if its a good TL lol.