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Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #16: Snake

Kewkky

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Its like u dont play me or see me play :/. Dude, u know TL outcamps snake. Thats what saves me from Rated when we play XD (and gimping lol). The problem is snake's close combat game, weight and kill power. 55-45 snake.
I see you play, my friend... But, out of all the games you play with Rated, how many do you win? It's definitely not 4/10 games, unless you're counting the times you counterpick DDD on Rainbow Cruise... And we're talking Toon Link... Plus, I beat him a lot with Kirby and know the MU from top to bottom and pull off the craziest things, yet I still acknowledge that it's 60:40 Snake's in Kirby's MU ratios: a disadvantage.

Still, you're the resident TL pro here in PR so I can't argue with you, I was just an unbiased person who wanted to put his input in for consideration... It might be a slight disadvantage like you say, the MU might feel different than what it can be seen like.
 

TLMSheikant

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I beat him the mayority of the time last time we played. It depends on the day. But we usually go even, I **** him or he ***** me :/. And I havent counterpicked with DDD in weeks dude. (The last smashfest u didnt go but I went mostly TL and sometimes other characters)
 

Kewkky

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I beat him the mayority of the time last time we played. It depends on the day. But we usually go even, I **** him or he ***** me :/. And I havent counterpicked with DDD in weeks dude. (The last smashfest u didnt go but I went mostly TL and sometimes other characters)
Well, I was just putting up my opinion as an unbiased person.

I still think it's a disadvantage to TL, though... Snake racks up damage quicker, and kills faster. He needs no set-ups to kill, and has many different moves he can kill with at varying %s... He can also camp you back, and make it so that you avoid specific areas on the stage by putting grenades, mines or c4s on those places. TL has a harder time in doing them compared to Snake: his grenade camping gives him time to shield and move between each throw compared to TL's camping (where TL has to postpone his actions in order to shield or evade), his damage-racking moves are clearly better than TL's (Snake's tilt combos can do as little as 21%, and successful combos can do around 30% in one sitting, as well as setup for utilt kills), he kills you earlier than you can kill him (no explanation necessary... Snakes tend to live forever), and he can gover distance faster than TL can due to DACUS, giving him some distance from your killing options once he's at danger %.

And Sheikant: I remember hearing from you that Marth is one of Kirby's worst MUs... But I have never lost a whole set against a Marth, including yours; more like... A match, then you change characters... The fact that I win or don't win doesn't make it even or my advantage, it just means that I know how to use my character better than my opponent knows how to use the one he's using, and I know the MU between both characters better than the opponent does... What difference is there between Snake vs TL, and Kirby vs Snake, in the sense that "you beat each other evenly"? Just saying.


Still, like I said, you're PR's TL pro, so you might feel the matchup differently than I see it.
 

GodMeowMix

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See, the bad thing is that.. You'll eventually HAVE to get close, since you don't have ranged killers. Snake can kill with his projectiles (grenades, C4, mines, nikita, mortar), so he can stay away and gain distance by DACUSing across the stages, resetting all of your zoning in the blink of an eye... Proper DACUSing will make it unpunishable, so don't think you can beat it by naming attacks, because he might want to use it while you pull out a bomb, start a SHDL, while you're offstage, etc....
If you read properly, I'm talking about the map Halberd/Rainbow in relation to Frigate Orpheon. Halberd gives you a lot more room than the other two stages especially in the beginning and the hazards are so ridiculous for both players on Halberd/Rainbow I don't see why someone would want to CP that stage.

You can't outcamp Snake, whatever your biased towards you should know this. And this goes to all the TL mains who think TL can outcamp Snake, not specifically naming anyone.
Lol


Preventing Snake from laying a bomb in the field is like preventing ICs from grabbing you... WAAAAY easier said than done.
Thanks for your opinion. I'm talking about when Snake has the whole field covered with explosions, which can be prevented if you're not leaving him that many options like most Toon Link players do when they decide to camp.

I used to play Snake, so I know a very decent amount of stuff... And I still believe Snake outcamps TL, because we can powershield his things and stay away, but TL has to block/evade grenades AND explosions... While they may not make a Snake move, grenades' zoning traits make it so that you can pressure TL with your grenades, more than TL can pressure you with his projectiles, which get even easier to powershield if you don't approach and just shieldcamp and grenade spam (no one likes doing this, but if worse comes to worst, a Snake has and WILL USE that option to take back the advantage).
I think you forgot about the fact how floaty Toon Link is, how he can jump and just throw bombs if Snake ever decided to pressure Toon Link with his gernades.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhbPofQ0QZE

farther (towads the ledge, where Snake can just shieldwalk and punish your zair due to you not having enough ground to properly space your zairs)
To say snake has more options than Toon Link when he is retreating and also restricts Toon Links options is laughable, I think you should play Snake vs Toon Link a little more before you try to say such a broad statement.
 
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If you read properly, I'm talking about the map Halberd/Rainbow in relation to Frigate Orpheon. Halberd gives you a lot more room than the other two stages especially in the beginning and the hazards are so ridiculous for both players on Halberd/Rainbow I don't see why someone would want to CP that stage.


Lol



Thanks for your opinion. I'm talking about when Snake has the whole field covered with explosions, which can be prevented if you're not leaving him that many options like most Toon Link players do when they decide to camp.


I think you forgot about the fact how floaty Toon Link is, how he can jump and just throw bombs if Snake ever decided to pressure Toon Link with his gernades.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhbPofQ0QZE


To say snake has more options than Toon Link when he is retreating and also restricts Toon Links options is laughable, I think you should play Snake vs Toon Link a little more before you try to say such a broad statement.
I wouldn't question Kewkky's knowledge of TL. He knows his stuff, although I have to agree with Sheikant when he says that TL does outcamp Snake. It isn't easy, but he can do it, and better.

Also, I wouldn't throw bombs while Snake is throwing grenades. It's too iffy, and can result in both the grenade and bomb exploding in your face. I would use a mix of arrows and boomerangs. It should do the trick.
 

demonictoonlink

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Just saying, a lot of you seem to think our camping game>>>Snakes. It is a bit better, but they can counter-camp at least a little.

Worst part here is the second we are down a stock, his camp game>>>ours. He knows we can kill with spam so grenades all day.

Meh, I don't mind this that bad. 55-45 snake or 60-40.
 

GodMeowMix

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I've out camped a lot of good Snake mains, I still think the match up can go either way, but I also agree the match up can also be in his favor at worst 60-40 although I look at it 50-50 or 55-45.

If Snake is trying to cook a grenades you can pressure them by using boomerangs or arrows. Majority of the time when you pressure a Snake while they are cooking a grenade they will either attempt to throw it or roll away.

If they plan on tossing after they cook a grenade its easily avoidable (just as easy as it is for Snake mains to power shield our projectiles) because of how floaty Toon Link is varying on the situation of coarse.

I do agree once Snake decides to stay on spot and try to take control of the stage by camping the match up does get very tricky and probably leads toward their favor, but they can only do so much when they camp compared to us. Snake camps best on ground while Toon Link can be very versatile with his camping game.

On top of it all it is a lot more frustrating for Snake to camp than it is for Toon Link, I've seen a lot of pissed off Snake mains having to deal with spam because of how ridiculous they think Toon Link's move set is. Trust me the last thing a Snake main wants to actually do is use grenades the whole match to win (I know there are a number Snake mains/users who do this, I'm just comparing that tactic to the other wide variety of options they have).
 
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lol you should see MK's tornado hitbox
I thought it would be bigger, like the size of his glide attack.

Can't wait to see the waft! :D



So that link means that we're very easy to regrab, assuming the Snake predicts us well, or did I get something mixed up?
 

Sosuke

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Snake can tech chase you on reaction, because TL's get-up options are so bad.

But it doesn't really matter much in this match up tbh.
 

Dre89

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It's probably a combination of what you've said and the fact that he's usually in the air.
 

Tiersr4Queers

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Ugh this matchup is stupid, and the whole goal is too keep snake away, rack up damage around 145%, usmash o easier said than done. Its been the same strategy for awhile now :/. We spam em, they get pissed and try to spam nadez, eventually it won't work if we pressure using rangs and arrows so there gnna approach and try and ftilt. Just run away, bair-to reverse quickdraw keep using ur bair to keep him away. Don't approach at low % unless you want to risk getting tilted. Zair-nair worx well, but after awhile a good snke would start psheilding and grabbing/jab/ftilt. The power sheilding is gonna get annoying which is exactly what snakes/metas do now. His jab combo kill by edge around our 90%, uptilt kills us around 120% even with good d.I. When snake ftilts, d.I upwards. When he nairs use tdi and sdi in a upward direction. The matchup isn't that bad just that killing a good snake with beast d.I is a pain. Which is why I hate the matchup. 55:45 Snake Favor
 

Kaffei

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Ugh this matchup is stupid, and the whole goal is too keep snake away, rack up damage around 145%, usmash o easier said than done. Its been the same strategy for awhile now :/. We spam em, they get pissed and try to spam nadez, eventually it won't work if we pressure using rangs and arrows so there gnna approach and try and ftilt. Just run away, bair-to reverse quickdraw keep using ur bair to keep him away. Don't approach at low % unless you want to risk getting tilted. Zair-nair worx well, but after awhile a good snke would start psheilding and grabbing/jab/ftilt. The power sheilding is gonna get annoying which is exactly what snakes/metas do now. His jab combo kill by edge around our 90%, uptilt kills us around 120% even with good d.I. When snake ftilts, d.I upwards. When he nairs use tdi and sdi in a upward direction. The matchup isn't that bad just that killing a good snake with beast d.I is a pain. Which is why I hate the matchup. 55:45 Snake Favor
Lol really? I love this MU.
 

Tiersr4Queers

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How could you love this matchup?
Snake gets more broken everday.
I was watching some snake at active gamerz tourney, and I saw him c4, teched off ledge then b-reversed nade to land safely back on stage I lol'd.
 

Kaffei

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How could you love this matchup?
Snake gets more broken everday.
I was watching some snake at active gamerz tourney, and I saw him c4, teched off ledge then b-reversed nade to land safely back on stage I lol'd.
I'm not sure.. I guess it's because I fight my friend a LOT who uses Snake. It's one of my favorite match ups. It's challenging, but so fun. I'd rather play vs Snake than MK by far. Just watch out for those nasty, nasty tilts.
 
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The MU is fun since you're gonna camp each other so expect a lot of projectile shenanigans
 

copacetic

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snakes decently fun. just bair and utilt til theyre too high to juggle, then nair and camp them for the next 100 damage until bair and utilt resemble kill moves again. If you're good enough to get them offstage at ~100% then either a fair or uair can kill them depending on their recovery route, but you need to make sure not to stale those at all or you'll have to wait til theyre at like 170%.

good luck landing an usmash against a good snake, and zair is nearly pointless since all their oos options are fast and have huge range, so you'll almost never get the nair off
 
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This matchup is only fun when you're winning. When you're losing, it's just like, "Ugh.... snake's so broken, it's not even fair...."

Just like with every S tier matchup.
 

Kaffei

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Lmao I feel so left out. I must be the only TL who loves vsing Snake. He is a pain to kill though, lol.,
 

.REMIX.

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This match IMO is 45:55.

We are great at camping snake and juggling him up in the air. Zairing them helps a lot to because it could make their nades explode at times. Boomerangs also helps a lot in this match p if you angle them well enough to hit them almost every time, Pivot grabs also work great in this match-up against snakes like ally that approach for grabs.

Oh and to kill snake you should juggle him in the air for a bit, u-throw a bomb, wait for him to dodge it and go for the up-smash. It works great on many snakes.

EDIT: make sure you don't get to close to them on the ground. nairing them while on platforms like the 1s on smashville and lylat works really well. try to hit their feet on the second hit of the nair to sweep them off the platform and follow up with another move
 

-Ran

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In the Metagame of old [year ago] Snake could out camp Toon Link. Snake didn't have to approach, since Toon Link would eventually have to come in for a kill move, where Snake could use his weight and tilts to his advantage. The difference between now and then is the winning requirements have changed. It is now perfectly acceptable to win a match by timing out your opponent and pitching the biggest tent the world has ever seen. Match tempo isn't dictated by who has the most stocks now, but who has the percent lead.

I'm a Snake main, and against Toon Links of Hyro and Jerm's caliber, I go Marth due to the lack of mobility that Snake has compared to Toon Link. I cannot catch them with Snake if they are just attempting to maintain a percent lead.
 

.REMIX.

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In the Metagame of old [year ago] Snake could out camp Toon Link. Snake didn't have to approach, since Toon Link would eventually have to come in for a kill move, where Snake could use his weight and tilts to his advantage. The difference between now and then is the winning requirements have changed. It is now perfectly acceptable to win a match by timing out your opponent and pitching the biggest tent the world has ever seen. Match tempo isn't dictated by who has the most stocks now, but who has the percent lead.
Very true. Back then the winning requirements weren't as accepted as they are now.
 

Rockan

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The match up is like impossible, Especially vs mojoe he is the toon link slayer for sure he ***** chip at genesis and he always beats me no problem he can have an utilt that kills at 100% while a snake with good di can live a tl upsmash at 140% with good DI and snake ftilt can take like 25% and tl has a slow roll for the tech chase DSf told me he only had to do dthrow vs santi I would say the match up is 70-30 I'm not biased im not terrible at the snake match up but that's how I feel it is DSF said I played the match up better than Santi

30-70* fixed lol
 

Sosuke

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Just edit the old one, Rockan.
 

-Ran

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Up Tilt shouldn't be killing you at 100. Toon Link is heavier than Marth. Get better DI.
 
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Snake easily outcamps Toon Link and Toon Link's z-air is unsafe on block and our camping can force TL to approach and prepare for a tilt or tech chase shenanigans. I think it's a 60:40 Snake's favor
 

-Ran

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Berk, you're just regurgitating information again. You have no idea what you're talking about.
 

copacetic

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Utilt doesn't kill until after 120. DI better.

and the way I see it, there are two good ways to counter nade camping.
If the cook them, camp hard and make them stay in their shield/ hit the nade as soon as they throw it so it blows them up or they're forced to dodge.
If they just throw them, insta-throw it back and continue camping as usual.

Edit: @Rockan - could you use a period or something to separate your thoughts? It gets hard reading a block of text when it's all one run-on sentence. but good **** vs dsf
 

MJG

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Snake easily outcamps Toon Link and Toon Link's z-air is unsafe on block and our camping can force TL to approach and prepare for a tilt or tech chase shenanigans. I think it's a 60:40 Snake's favor
Toonlink does not have to camp the enitre time...but it is smart to stay at least 2 rolls away from snake considering the fact that:

1) Snakes F tilt and U Tilt will reach toonlink before toonlink can even touch snake (Gay)
2) Toonlink gets ***** by down throw...(toonlink has a terrible roll)
3 Known to both snake and toonlink: snake will kill toonlink way earlier than toonlink can kill snake

I agree with the match up ratio but you didnt really prove your point too well <_<

And zair isnt really meant to be used as a follow up tool most of the time in the match up...we will get punished by it if we dont space it well

EDIT: Basically what copacetic said as well..but it isnt always safe to try to throw the grenade back...Snake can drop the nade that toonlink is holding by pressing B to obtain another nade...and then just drop it. I found this out about 2 weeks ago >_<
 

Chip.

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All Snake has in this match-up is his survivability, KO power, and aggression and unfortunately that's all he needs to win vs. Toon Link.

Toon Link has a lot more tools he has to win vs. Snake. He can generally out camp him, can combo him to high percents, has many attacks that out range his, and can punish Ftilting with sheild grab.

The only problem with this match-up is that even though he has more tools to win, Toon Link has to put in a lot more work to do so than Snake does. I don't think the match up is bad at all, you just have to do everything perfect in order to win though.
 

Chip.

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The match up is like impossible, Especially vs mojoe he is the toon link slayer for sure he ***** chip at genesis and he always beats me no problem he can have an utilt that kills at 100% while a snake with good di can live a tl upsmash at 140% with good DI and snake ftilt can take like 25% and tl has a slow roll for the tech chase DSf told me he only had to do dthrow vs santi I would say the match up is 70-30 I'm not biased im not terrible at the snake match up but that's how I feel it is DSF said I played the match up better than Santi

30-70* fixed lol
He beat me in two 1$ MMs =/. I ***** DSF and beat JonT's snakes in 1$ MMs that same weekend. Is Toon Link 70/30 vs Snake now?!?!?!

Didn't think so.
 

Kaffei

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He beat me in two 1$ MMs =/. I ***** DSF and beat JonT's snakes in 1$ MMs that same weekend. Is Toon Link 70/30 vs Snake now?!?!?!

Didn't think so.

30:70 LOL. This match up isn't really that hard compared to the MK MU. Well, at least that's how it is for me.
 
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