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Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #16: Snake

Dalub

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jul 23, 2008
Messages
89
...........................................................
 
Last edited:

TLMSheikant

Smash Master
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Oct 6, 2008
Messages
3,168
Location
Puerto Rico
Summary by S@nT and mjg. Took long enough rofl.

Best Stage to fight Snake on:


Other good stages:
Rainbow Cruise
Delfino Plaza
Pokemon Stadium 1

Worst Stage to fight Snake on:


Other bad stages:
Battlefield
Frigate Orpheon
Lylat Cruise
Smashville (moving explosive)


Summary:

Camp wars! This matchup is about who can camp the best. They are both very even in camping with Toon Link having a bit more variety and a slight superiority in camping. Bombs from above are pretty good in this matchup just watch out and dont throw a bomb with a nade in front of you as that means both damage from the nade and the bomb. Also, beware of his DACUS when landing if you were bomb camping from above. Arrows can stop nades in their tracks and be a sorta good way to force him to approach you. Beware of him upclose, he totally wrecks Toon Link upclose. He is also a pain to kill. Zair is useful when coming down from air bomb camping because it can stop DACUS attempts and if spaced well, is completely unpunishable. Rising bair is very good in this matchup it can combo snake to oblivion, just make sure to space it right. Bomb to Upair and Fair will be your most reliable kill options as Usmash and utilt are too risky to use. And often mean an OoS Ftilt from the snake or a grab...and you dont want to get grabbed. If you DO get grabbed make sure to mix up your options as much as possible. But you shouldnt be getting grabbed much...you are Toon Link. At high percents beware of his wtfhaxutilt it comes out very fast and has deceiving range (im pretty sure u knew that lol). If you are in the air and at high percents I'd recommend b reversing an arrow to land in an unpredictable way. (You can also ibomb). Also, remember that while Snake's aerials are all very laggy, they have a lot of range and kill power in them so dont be overconfident if you get him in the air.

Halberd: We will be able to kill snake earlier but the same will apply when it comes to snake killing toonlink. Ban this stage first. Lylat is another stage that puts toonlink at a disadvantage. While toonlink has the ability to bomb camp from a safe distance, Snake can occupy 2 out of 3 of the platforms on the stage (with his C4 and Claymore) and proceed to punish toonlink as he attempts to return to the ground. Snake's explosives are not very visible on this stage at all. Smashville is good for snake because of the moving platform that snake can occupy with a C4 or Claymore

Other useful things to know: If toonlink happens to grab snake at low percentages, toon link will not be able to follow up with a back air/up tilt immediately. The snake user can just use bair as soon as you throw him.


Moves that are very helpful in this matchup:
Bombs, Rang, Arrows, Zair, Bair, Upair, Fair

Moves to watch out for:
Ftilt, Grenades, Utilt, DACUS, jab, Grab, his laggy air moves (dont underestimate them especially bair and nair)
 

.REMIX.

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
128
Location
Fair Lawn, New Jersey
Are you crazy? This match up is not fun at all :laugh:

Trying to kill snake is a *****...I've noticed that a lot of snakes like to Side step OoS...i need to capitalize on that more.

60:40 Snake.

EDIT: The diddy match up is way more fun than this
I completely agree. I usually toss up a bomb and wait for them to air dodge so i can u-air. i try to only use u-smash in this match-up when i KNOW its a sure hit.
 

Chip.

you know what to do
Joined
Dec 18, 2006
Messages
1,884
Location
Spokane, Washington
Fd is NOT the best neutral to fight Snake on. Battlefield is, IMO.

If the Snake is smart, he will never camp, just sheild and aggress.
 

Hyro

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 31, 2008
Messages
1,386
Fd is NOT the best neutral to fight Snake on. Battlefield is, IMO.

If the Snake is smart, he will never camp, just sheild and aggress.
Exactly, I'm always telling people that's how you fight Toon Link. If you try to camp, you lose. (Except for falco...)
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
10,050
He's going a predictable path (straight, but just really fast).

You can do different things depending on how close or far you are from him.

DACUS from far: You can use projectiles or you can wait until he gets closer and use a Jab, Nair, Bair, or Grab.

From closer: Just shield it.

In the air: This is a little bit tougher. Try to avoid getting hit by the mortar without air dodging if that's possible, and try not to land anywhere near Snake (you'll eat an Ftilt/Utilt).
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
10,050
Yep.

He can punish the air dodge as you're helplessly falling downward with a mighty Utilt.

If you're gonna air dodge the mortar, move in the direction opposite of where he's going.
 

demonictoonlink

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
3,113
Location
Colorado
I have no idea how your Nair creates knockback on shield.

Unless you mean the Ftilt we'll eat when he powershields the move if we spam it. Because that would actually create plenty of space for more retreating nairs.
 

copacetic

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 24, 2008
Messages
408
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Worcester, MA
lol ftilt retreating nair? if you space it well they can't hit it, especially if you're rising. also why do you assume it's spammed? that kinda defeats the purpose of a good move in a matchup if you use it enough to get predicted. and it sets up camping really well if you hit with it, especially under a platform at BF when they're near the close ledge
 

Gnes

Smash Master
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Aug 8, 2007
Messages
3,666
Location
In Another Dimension...
I have no idea how your Nair creates knockback on shield.

Unless you mean the Ftilt we'll eat when he powershields the move if we spam it. Because that would actually create plenty of space for more retreating nairs.
LMAO

kudos

If u use it while rising snake cant really do anything to but chase u with nades or some aerial(most likely nair), all really pointless. But eventually your back will be to the ledge, and thats when the problem starts.
 

demonictoonlink

Smash Master
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Colorado
Being on the ledge against Snake is terrifying with any character :(

OK it's not that scary with MK, but you know what I mean
 

NH Cody

Smash Champion
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Apr 17, 2010
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2,638
Location
Kakariko Village, NH
Against Snake I suggest staying in the air and just throwing down bombs, ibombing, and continuous camping. SMS and wavebouncing helps too for mindgames IMO.
 

DUB

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 7, 2008
Messages
1,514
Location
Wilmington, NC
  • Snake can drop bairs from the edge and it will knock you out of your Up+B every time if you can't put a boomerang or something in his way.
  • Careful with iBombing even still. Snake can follow your weaving and air dodges with pivot grabs well when he gets under you.
  • Situational, but DA Snake out of his double jump when returning to the stage to put him at an extremely bad angle. If you don't like DA just try to inerupt the double jump with jab/nair/projectile or something.
  • Up-Air is too good at chasing his air dodges.
  • Maybe personal preference but I hate playing Snake on Lylat. The tilting of the ship always messes up my quickdraws and SHDA's and Snake gets more platforms to plant C4 and all his other goodies. Rainbow Cruise is an obvious choice if your comfortable with it and the player won't just go MK.
  • Snakes F-throw and B-throw are not hard to zair the edge after at all. Helps to get back quickly before he can set up an edgeguard routine.


I've got a of questions myself.

How quickly can you iBomb OoS? - in regards to combating all the jab/f-tilt nonsense when Snake gets in.
 
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
10,050
Air Dodge invincibility frames start at Frame 4.

As for when the bomb is active? I'm assuming sometime before Frame 4, but if it's after, it doesn't really matter since we'll be invincible.
 

demonictoonlink

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
3,113
Location
Colorado
Wow

I've never seen him post before, but DUB completely knows his stuff.

Yeah, you can Ibomb like, instantly OoS. It's actually a decent mixup to Ibomb after the first hit of his Ftilt hits your shield and land behind Snake.
 

Iofsauron

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 13, 2010
Messages
231
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Thunder Bluff, or Franklin NC
Air Dodge invincibility frames start at Frame 4.

As for when the bomb is active? I'm assuming sometime before Frame 4, but if it's after, it doesn't really matter since we'll be invincible.
What he said is right, but fyi if ya do it too late on frames, you'll pull out your hook-shot so be careful with that, but its easy to do, so dont worry about it
 
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