Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #16: Snake

[TLMSheikant]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9184146&postcount=122

Verdict: 60-40 snake (Disadvantage)

 

[A~Kid/ToonethLinkage]

Rediscussing Snake is a stupid idea. It hasn't changed at all. We should've done Mario. >_> I'll be on a lot less so you won't be hearing from me anytime soon.

 

[copacetic]

his up-tilt kills at like 125-130 (on BF). Most snakes seem to think it'll kill you earlier though, so they'll waste it at 115 or so and stale it so you can survive another 30% at least. Somehow I always end up living to like 180% against snakes.

Not really matchup info, just an observation. Oh but they do get thrown off if you instantly throw their nades back at them.

And d-throw ***** us. Pretty sure it's an infinite if they react fast enough. they don't have to predict, just react

 

[WindMajor]

Rediscussing Snake is a stupid idea. It hasn't changed at all. We should've done Mario. >_> I'll be on a lot less so you won't be hearing from me anytime soon.

Actually, I think we were under estimating Snake in the previous matchup. 45:55 was slightly generous of a matchup. I think it goes 40:60, and it's pretty much because it's a really uphill battle. A good Snake should always have control over the map, and will always have options for what we throw at him.

Plus, his utilt is more broken than a team of pink Metaknights.

 

[Mota]

I agree on 40-60 snake.

Snake outranges us in nearly everyway, so zair and spam is our best bet.

Even in the air, it's pretty even.

 

[2nLio]

Ibombing is your best friend in this match. almost everytime your gonna land Ibomb away from the snake and their options get seriously limited.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Snakes D-throw is overrated. There I said it.
But seriously, I've never had any trouble with it, just don't be predictable. Heck, even just lay still sometimes and wait for them to jump the gun, or just do the normal get up. The point is, mix it up, mix up the timing and the way you get up, and I don't see you having any trouble. Don't get me wrong though, there is a very high chance of Snake getting a follow up to his D-throw, but it is no where near an infinite. If a Snake player can infinite Toon with D-throw, then the Toon is doing it wrong.

 

[P!1]

Snake's tilts are statuatory ****. (Quite literally acutally, Toon Link is 12 years old LOL) He will abuse Ftilt and some will save Utilt for killing. A good Snake knows how to cook nades to the last second, and a good Snake will, so beware.

But TL isn't without his tricks too. Snake has alata priority in the air and his Bair and Uair can be used to space and kill, repectively. We're faster in the air but if he keeps up pressure we could slip up and get pwnt. So its pretty even in the air.

Not sure who wins on gimping but I think his Cypher, though has super-armor, can't sweetspot the ledge so try and get him as he's coming up. Also is it cool to dair the Cypher? o_o

Play a good mid-range game and try not to get D-thrown too much, he could follow that up with something nasty. Snake out-ranges TL but that doesnt mean you should let up on the wall of flying spam. Keep bombs in hands and keep zair pressure on him at all times.

60:40 Snake. Just correct anything I said wrong. ^^

 

[Attila_]

Snake's tilts are statuatory ****. (Quite literally acutally, Toon Link is 12 years old LOL) He will abuse Ftilt and some will save Utilt for killing. A good Snake knows how to cook nades to the last second, and a good Snake will, so beware.

But TL isn't without his tricks too. Snake has alata priority in the air and his Bair and Uair can be used to space and kill, repectively. We're faster in the air but if he keeps up pressure we could slip up and get pwnt. So its pretty even in the air.

Not sure who wins on gimping but I think his Cypher, though has super-armor, can't sweetspot the ledge so try and get him as he's coming up. Also is it cool to dair the Cypher? o_o

Play a good mid-range game and try not to get D-thrown too much, he could follow that up with something nasty. Snake out-ranges TL but that doesnt mean you should let up on the wall of flying spam. Keep bombs in hands and keep zair pressure on him at all times.

60:40 Snake. Just correct anything I said wrong. ^^

snake shouldnt be camping here. tink has one of the best projectile games in smash, and should be able to overwhelm snake and force an approach.

tink wins in the air, faster aerials with less lag, and he can wop snake relatively easily.

a decent snake will only get gimped by a mk. tink cant do it. snake will always recover high. if hes low, he should retreat away from or under the stage, and use his c4 for gain height and distance. given tink's uspecial priority, it is much more likely that snake will be doing the gimping (box ko, anyone?).

dthrow is not an infinite, and ive never seen anyone with good enough reactions to turn it into one. that being said, tinks rolls allow snake to make a slight misprediction or react late and still continue the chase. great, but not an infinite by any means.

zair pressure is annoying but can be powershielded and punished. tink should really be camping until snake is at kill percentage.

that's what i reckon anyway.

 

[WindMajor]

His Dthrow is somewhat overrated. At high level of play, the most they'll ever land on you consecutively is 2. Toon Link has a couple of options and so does Snake, so the probability that we get caught again are slim. However, his back throw is what I'm worried about. I'm never taking my Snake to RC again because of his back throw. If you get caught with a grab on the left side of the level, it's pretty much a lost stock, unless your DI is magic.

His utilt can reach above platforms, so we aren't safe on the platforms above him. Our air game is limited because of his Mortar and other projectiles. By the way, if Snake EVER uses the nikita, punish him. Fair him off his Cypher. Dairing him is inconsistent. You have to angle the dair properly, otherwise, you'll bounce on the cypher. It's imperative that you remain away from Snake. Zair is a good tool here, but I would only recommend poking him with it, just to make sure he doesn't shield.

I'll have more after class is over.

 

[Yubi]

An excellent counter for Toon Link is Ness. Sheikant can tell you guys about that.

Anyways, Toon Link should camp snake until his damage is high enough to be KO'ed.

 

[copacetic]

Snakes D-throw is overrated. There I said it.
But seriously, I've never had any trouble with it, just don't be predictable. Heck, even just lay still sometimes and wait for them to jump the gun, or just do the normal get up. The point is, mix it up, mix up the timing and the way you get up, and I don't see you having any trouble. Don't get me wrong though, there is a very high chance of Snake getting a follow up to his D-throw, but it is no where near an infinite. If a Snake player can infinite Toon with D-throw, then the Toon is doing it wrong.

If you don't move immediately he can utilt or ftilt. If you attack, you attack AWAY first, so he has time to see it and the block. If you roll behind him he can just take his time and pivot. If you roll away it's easy enough for him to see it and catch you again (and once you're at the ledge it's easier to read that).

I usually only got hit by 1 or 2 regrabs when I played bizkit and fatal, but I played a snake once who is really experienced with the TL matchup and focuses solely on the dthrow chase. He sucked otherwise but he could get like 5-6 off no problem. And it wasn't prediction, it's reaction.

So I think the best option might actually be to just lie there, and let him stale a tilt on you if you see that they are good at that chase. It's not in our hands really, it's a matter of how good the snake is.

But if you see them trying (like they do with other characters) to just predict it, and not react, then you should definitely be able to get out without it being a chain.


Beyond that, space your zairs extremely well. If you're too close they can powershield to ftilt/utilt/jab/grab, all of which have pretty good range. Most likely zair->nair won't work since to get in close enough you'd be in range for the PS->any fast move.
Be careful pulling out bombs, their grenades can handcuff us a bit. Bair and uair **** for both characters.
You should be able to get a lot of early kills with fair (offstage and low) or uair (recovering high), but if you don't they can end up living to pretty high percentages.

EDIT: also don't forget that just getting hit with a nade does about as much damage as an uncharged arrow, so don't just take the hit if you can avoid it

And does anyone have the frame data on what we do out of the dthrow? I wanna see just how many frames he has to react

 

[WindMajor]

Mindgames will get us out of the Dthrow. If he predicts us right, he can get us again, but if we trick him to something else, we're free. Snakes don't have a lot of time to react, so it can go either way.

 

[TLMSheikant]

LOL @ Yubi. Ness is hard to camp . I lost to you because of matchup inexperience. /johns. Ur ness is great, umm...we're kinda offtopic so ill stop >_>. Anyways, I think this is 60-40. Snake's tilts too good.

 

[Radori Nighthawk]

An excellent counter for Toon Link is Ness.

LOLwut?

@ Sheikant. Ummm use LOTS of arrows. Ness isn't hard to camp at all.

Also, this matchup isn't HAT bad. 40/60 sounds about right. I've 2 stocked Candy at FD and he ***** me anywhere else. BAN HALBERD NO MATTER WHAT!!!! That stage is just bad. Zair to grab will work no matter what. It's just SO hard to take him down. If that wasn't the case, this matchup wouldn't be so bad.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Umm radori doesnt ness' fair destroy arrows? It destroys boomer so I thought it would also beat arrows. Besides arrows are easily PS'd. But I guess Ill try arrow camping yubi in tourney . (He beat me in a friendly set).If all else fails, I resort to ddd lol. I find Ness hard to camp because his fair beats boomer, outranges nair and bair, and can catch bombs D:.

 

[Radori Nighthawk]

Umm radori doesnt ness' fair destroy arrows? It destroys boomer so I thought it would also beat arrows. Besides arrows are easily PS'd. But I guess Ill try arrow camping yubi in tourney . (He beat me in a friendly set).If all else fails, I resort to ddd lol. I find Ness hard to camp because his fair beats boomer, outranges nair and bair, and can catch bombs D:.

Does it? I'm not even sure. I've never really have problems with Ness. I suppose that means all the ones I've played are bad.

 

[Kaffei]

60:40 Snake's favor In my opinion.
I find bombs to be slightly less useful because if they clash with Snake's nades and TL gets hit, it's really not good.
When Z-Airing, getting too close leads to snake f/utilting TL or a grab. :|
Keep him in the air?

 

[TLMSheikant]

I just wanna say that almost all my kills on snake are upairs after I get them off the ledge and they are returning from the ceiling >_>. Yeah Snake is really tough to kill :/. But upair does the job. Bair juggling is awesome too.

 

[Kaffei]

I just wanna say that almost all my kills on snake are upairs after I get them off the ledge and they are returning from the ceiling >_>. Yeah Snake is really tough to kill :/. But upair does the job. Bair juggling is awesome too.

He's so frikken heavy

 

[WindMajor]

I just wanna say that almost all my kills on snake are upairs after I get them off the ledge and they are returning from the ceiling >_>. Yeah Snake is really tough to kill :/. But upair does the job. Bair juggling is awesome too.

I think fair does the job really well when he's recovering with the Cypher. Uair is probably going to be our main killing move though. We can outcamp him pretty efficiently. We have to keep track of what bombs are what, and where they're planted. It can get pretty difficult at times.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Just thought I'd say, from playing this matchup a decent bit yesterday, I found that arrows are more helpful then usual. Specifically, the SHDA. It was quite effective at stopping the nades in their tracks like right in front of them and then you had the extra quickdraw coming at them.
I dunno, it just seemed to help me quite a bit in the spam war more then the other projectiles. But maybe it was just because the snake didn't know how to deal with them. What can they do other then power shield? He tried F-tilting and U-tilting them, but that didn't work either. I spose it also helps that Snake is so tall so that the first arrow will always hit.

 

[WindMajor]

Just thought I'd say, from playing this matchup a decent bit yesterday, I found that arrows are more helpful then usual. Specifically, the SHDA. It was quite effective at stopping the nades in their tracks like right in front of them and then you had the extra quickdraw coming at them.
I dunno, it just seemed to help me quite a bit in the spam war more then the other projectiles. But maybe it was just because the snake didn't know how to deal with them. What can they do other then power shield? He tried F-tilting and U-tilting them, but that didn't work either. I spose it also helps that Snake is so tall so that the first arrow will always hit.

That's an interesting tactic. I completely forgot about the SHDA blocking grenades. They are seriously like perfect height for nade sniping. I like to use charged arrows when a Snake is using the Cypher. I count headshots. It's not the best edge guard technique, but it deals a nice amount of damage.

 

[Kaffei]

That's an interesting tactic. I completely forgot about the SHDA blocking grenades. They are seriously like perfect height for nade sniping. I like to use charged arrows when a Snake is using the Cypher. I count headshots. It's not the best edge guard technique, but it deals a nice amount of damage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELCRQK-f478#t=3m50s
LMFAO.

 

[Thebest1pj]

dsmash gimp does wonders here if im on the edge and they ftilt i ummmmm >_> spotdodge to cstick and dairin i go specifically when daering snake i make sure im past the cypher but above snake still . this battle should be fought in the air by toonrink

 

[TLMSheikant]

I've decided to continue matchup discussions. Please! No trolling, flaming or spamming. Also, dont come in saying 60-40 TL we raep!, try to make the rating the least important thing and discuss actual stuff about the matchup. So, lets go! Again...

 

[Lobos]

100:0 Snake! We get *****!!! /trolling

The most basic thing any toonlink should know is stay atleast 2 rolls away from snake and his tilts. Try to catch snake in the air where we can rack up damage. Uair is our best kill move on this heavy *******. Try not to becoming predictable if you get grabbed....better yet dont get grabbed and think of snake as DDD.

Lastly our camp game > his

 

[Popcornio]

When Snake is using Gernades (from a far distance), you can shoot them with SH Arrows to stop their momentum and they kind of act like a barrier between you and Snake for a short time because he doesn't want to get hit either. I find Bombs to be a lot less useful in this match up, but you can use them to destroy C4s which comes in handy.

Try to keep Snake in the air, but don't become too predictable in your air game because if you slip up his aerials are extremely powerful. Watch out for the disjointed B-air, he can hit you with his head (like a superman effect).

However, this match up is very stage dependent I believe. He dominates on smaller stages like BF and Smashville, and benefiets from small blast zone maps (eg. Corneria) more than we do. Fighting Snake isn't extremely bad on places like Rainbow Cruse and Norfair.

Overall, I think it's 40 (TL) - 60 (Snake)

 

[Radori Nighthawk]

I would like to reitterate on this statement.

NEVER LET A SNAKE TAKE YOU TO HALBERD!!!

Also, pray they don't ban FD.

 

[MJG]

100:0 Snake! We get *****!!! /trolling

The most basic thing any toonlink should know is stay atleast 2 rolls away from snake and his tilts. Try to catch snake in the air where we can rack up damage. Uair is our best kill move on this heavy *******. Try not to becoming predictable if you get grabbed....better yet dont get grabbed and think of snake as DDD.

Lastly our camp game > his

This is probably the best advice i have heard in a match up thread in awhile and it is so simple (playing snake as if he was DDD)

What stages should we counter/ban? I usually take out halberd first and I have heard of lylat being good for snake but no snakes have counter it against me.

EDIT: Snakes have used Bair on me immediately after I used toonlinks down throw at relatively low percentages.

 

[WindMajor]

This is probably the best advice i have heard in a match up thread in awhile and it is so simple (playing snake as if he was DDD)

What stages should we counter/ban? I usually take out halberd first and I have heard of lylat being good for snake but no snakes have counter it against me.

EDIT: Snakes have used Bair on me immediately after I used toonlinks down throw at relatively low percentages.

Back Throw is really good if you actually end up grabbing Snake. Especially when you have your back facing the ledge. In the right percents, it launches them downward and away.

As for stages, I personally am never ever gonna take a Snake to RC. Having the stage take care of C4s and mines for me is absolutely great, but I can't stand Snake's back/forward throw. It's soooo retardedly good in the left side of the stage. Also, when on the top, the ceiling is really low. It's a good and bad thing for TL, since it's easier to KO Snake with, but at the same time, the Utilt is twice as good.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Upair, Bair, Perfectly spaced Zair, Tipper nair, Arrows, boomerang are too good in this matchup. The key to this matchup is camping him properly and only using bombs to assist in juggles and not to outcamp his nades. The other part is getting him offstage to get an upair kill. All Snakes will recover high which makes them very prone to our bomb lures to upair/fair. I think this is 55:45 snake still :/. Pointless matchup rediscussion maybe? lol.

 

[DoubleNegative]

I dunno about a 60-40. Kind of a stretch there. Whenever I fight Snake, I never feel like I'm at a disadvantage. Sure, Snake's tilts and killing power overrides Toon Link's camping and combo ability to some extent, but Snake can only do so much when you play the match-up right.. Zair pays most of his close combat moves no mind, provided it's spaced right. Keep him airborne as much as possible, and since...well...maybe it's just me but, I can't follow up on Zair against Snake that easily so I'd say bait his tilts with Zair and punish accordingly.

Another thing, I noticed that whenever I power shield the first hit of his Ftilt, I'm able to sneak out some Utilts on him. I dunno the frames and what not, but it always works for me. This really helps with the airborne thing.

Also, take him to Rainbow Cruise or Final Destination. I think Toon Link can Dtilt lock him at RC and well...we all know how Snake does on that stage. Bad.

My take on this matchup: 55:45 Snake or 50:50.

Edit: Ban Halberd. Just...yeah. Ban that place.

 

[GodMeowMix]

I agree the match up is a lot easier when you keep Snake airborne, if he's on the ground he has limitless options from what I've experienced.

Rainbow Cruise is a horrible counter pick to choose against Snake because of how small the stage is majority of the time, restricting the options for Toon Link to keep space from Snake.

Halberd actually isn't as bad a stage as Frigate Orpheon in my opinion, Halberd may have a lower ceiling but if you know how to stay away from close range combat then you are probably better off banning Frigate because there have been some crafty players who can gimp pretty well on that stage.

As long as you keep a balance between being aggressive and defensive in mid-long range and you try to prevent Snake from laying out a bomb field, then the match up isn't frustrating as it may appear to be.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

The thing about Snake is, even when you feel like you're winning, you're actually losing. Snake's try to fight with one thing in mind, always try to at least trade hits. If they trade hits (in other words, if you hit them but they also hit you) they are actually winning because of their incredible kill power and weight. So pretty much, in order for you to be actually winning, you have to feel like you're ****** them. As in, you arn't even being touched.
I'm pretty sure I've already talked a bit about the matchup, but I just wanted to clear that bit up, cause I was seeing a few people saying, they feel like they never do too bad in this matchup and I used to think like that too.

 

[Kewkky]

Halberd actually isn't as bad a stage as Frigate Orpheon in my opinion, Halberd may have a lower ceiling but if you know how to stay away from close range combat then you are probably better off banning Frigate because there have been some crafty players who can gimp pretty well on that stage.

See, the bad thing is that.. You'll eventually HAVE to get close, since you don't have ranged killers. Snake can kill with his projectiles (grenades, C4, mines, nikita, mortar), so he can stay away and gain distance by DACUSing across the stages, resetting all of your zoning in the blink of an eye... Proper DACUSing will make it unpunishable, so don't think you can beat it by naming attacks, because he might want to use it while you pull out a bomb, start a SHDL, while you're offstage, etc....

You can't outcamp Snake, whatever your biased towards you should know this. And this goes to all the TL mains who think TL can outcamp Snake, not specifically naming anyone.

As long as you keep a balance between being aggressive and defensive in mid-long range and you try to prevent Snake from laying out a bomb field, then the match up isn't frustrating as it may appear to be.

Preventing Snake from laying a bomb in the field is like preventing ICs from grabbing you... WAAAAY easier said than done.

The thing about Snake is, even when you feel like you're winning, you're actually losing. Snake's try to fight with one thing in mind, always try to at least trade hits. If they trade hits (in other words, if you hit them but they also hit you) they are actually winning because of their incredible kill power and weight. So pretty much, in order for you to be actually winning, you have to feel like you're ****** them. As in, you arn't even being touched.
I'm pretty sure I've already talked a bit about the matchup, but I just wanted to clear that bit up, cause I was seeing a few people saying, they feel like they never do too bad in this matchup and I used to think like that too.

Agreed. I, as a Kirby/ZSS mainer, know this too be true all too well. You have to **** them in order to be on the winning side, since he kills you earlier than you'll ever kill him... He kills you at 120-130% for example, while you HAVE to kill him at 160%+ because of his weight and momentum canceling techniques. Whenever you both are at the same %, HE'S actually having the advantage, because he'll kill you first at that rate.

 

[Gnes]

You can't outcamp Snake, whatever your biased towards you should know this. And this goes to all the TL mains who think TL can outcamp Snake, not specifically naming anyone.

Your wrong....

Sorry.

The problem is even with Toon link outcamping snake...he has to go in like you've already said, and in there lies the issue. Snake doesn't really care that hes taking chip damage, simply because once he gets in, its ****.

P.S. I play snake

 

[Kewkky]

Your wrong....

Sorry.

The problem is even with Toon link outcamping snake...he has to go in like you've already said, and in there lies the issue. Snake doesn't really care that hes taking chip damage, simply because once he gets in, its ****.

P.S. I play snake

I used to play Snake, so I know a very decent amount of stuff... And I still believe Snake outcamps TL, because we can powershield his things and stay away, but TL has to block/evade grenades AND explosions... While they may not make a Snake move, grenades' zoning traits make it so that you can pressure TL with your grenades, more than TL can pressure you with his projectiles, which get even easier to powershield if you don't approach and just shieldcamp and grenade spam (no one likes doing this, but if worse comes to worst, a Snake has and WILL USE that option to take back the advantage).

TL can either get closer (towards Snake's deadly close-range game), farther (towads the ledge, where Snake can just shieldwalk and punish your zair due to you not having enough ground to properly space your zairs), or upwards by jumping (but in doing so, you postpone your projectile game, so Snake could get closer if he wanted to)... And no matter what option you choose, given enough time, Snake will zone you to the edge of the stage.


It's not that I'm underrating TL, it's that I know Snake vs TL isn't 55:45 Snake, much less even... It's a disadvantage, so 60:40 Snake's.

 

[Corpsecreate]

I'll agree with 60:40 matchup. Snake can kill TL so much earlier than TL can kill Snake

 

[TLMSheikant]

I used to play Snake, so I know a very decent amount of stuff... And I still believe Snake outcamps TL, because we can powershield his things and stay away, but TL has to block/evade grenades AND explosions... While they may not make a Snake move, grenades' zoning traits make it so that you can pressure TL with your grenades, more than TL can pressure you with his projectiles, which get even easier to powershield if you don't approach and just shieldcamp and grenade spam (no one likes doing this, but if worse comes to worst, a Snake has and WILL USE that option to take back the advantage).

TL can either get closer (towards Snake's deadly close-range game), farther (towads the ledge, where Snake can just shieldwalk and punish your zair due to you not having enough ground to properly space your zairs), or upwards by jumping (but in doing so, you postpone your projectile game, so Snake could get closer if he wanted to)... And no matter what option you choose, given enough time, Snake will zone you to the edge of the stage.


It's not that I'm underrating TL, it's that I know Snake vs TL isn't 55:45 Snake, much less even... It's a disadvantage, so 60:40 Snake's.

Its like u dont play me or see me play :/. Dude, u know TL outcamps snake. Thats what saves me from Rated when we play XD (and gimping lol). The problem is snake's close combat game, weight and kill power. 55-45 snake.